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Your post made me think you might be interested in these two links:

Some thoughts on a "Copyright Offensive"
http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2007/04/some-thoughts-on-copyright-offensive.html

Packet In's Income Thoughts, plans, possibilities, etc.
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Income

all the best,

drew

here is a small start:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/viewer.playlist?playlistId=1184&memberId=6509
http://www.jamendo.com/en/playlist/99982
http://www.jamendo.com/en/playlist/113052
http://www.jamendo.com/en/playlist/131695
http://www.joshwoodward.com/music/
http://www.bradsucks.net/music/
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
http://ccmixter.org/playlist/browse/3464

enjoy

"The stuff in between, the indies, will struggle in such a market because they (again in my humble opinion) dont have the resources to profit as easily from global market opportunities as the major labels."

It is going to be hard for anyone to play in the same game as the big boys and hang with them.

But one can try something that the big boys will be reluctant to play. Free and Copyleft Music. And finding models to support such.

I have been working on some notes on packet In's site:

Income: http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Income
Promotion: http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Promotion

Perhaps it will give some help to some trying the Free game.

all the best,

drew

"The stuff in between, the indies, will struggle in such a market because they (again in my humble opinion) dont have the resources to profit as easily from global market opportunities as the major labels."

It is going to be hard for anyone to play in the same game as the big boys and hang with them.

But one can try something that the big boys will be reluctant to play. Free and Copyleft Music. And finding models to support such.

I have been working on some notes on packet In's site:

Income: http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Income
Promotion: http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Promotion

Perhaps it will give some help to some trying the Free game.

all the best,

drew

"but when you allow commercial use of your work, it allows people to take your work, burn it and sell it as is."

Yes, you can. Have at it then:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/userName-zotz/profile.member
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=RPM08_Final_Tracks
http://packet-in.org/repo/user_drewRoberts/

Naturally, I would prefer if you cut me in for a share, but the license does not require it. Let me know how you make out.

Also, this is exactly what is done all the time with GPL code.

"and sell it as my own, so long as i mention that you wrote it in the fine print."

Nah, read the license again. The fine print play is covered.

"there needs to be some sort of condition saying that a work is non-commercial if it is used as-is, but commercial use is fine when the context is changed somehow."

You could get close to pulling this off for your own original works by dual licensing different bits.

Put the lyric and sheet music under BY-SA and your recording under BY-SA-NC.

all the best,

drew

"but when you allow commercial use of your work, it allows people to take your work, burn it and sell it as is."

Yes, you can. Have at it then:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/userName-zotz/profile.member
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=RPM08_Final_Tracks
http://packet-in.org/repo/user_drewRoberts/

Naturally, I would prefer if you cut me in for a share, but the license does not require it. Let me know how you make out.

Also, this is exactly what is done all the time with GPL code.

"and sell it as my own, so long as i mention that you wrote it in the fine print."

Nah, read the license again. The fine print play is covered.

"there needs to be some sort of condition saying that a work is non-commercial if it is used as-is, but commercial use is fine when the context is changed somehow."

You could get close to pulling this off for your own original works by dual licensing different bits.

Put the lyric and sheet music under BY-SA and your recording under BY-SA-NC.

all the best,

drew

"CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?"

With lasers? Don't tell me that have lasers too!

all the best,

drew
--
http://packet-in.org/
Packet In - Libre Music, sometimes Gratis

I am not arguing with you stated point here...

I am saying that I don't have to like all the parts of the package that I choose as best for me. It may be the best I can do, it may even be the best that can be done, but there can still be parts I don't like.

Copyleft, even though it is my preferred mode for my released works, has its own issues with incompatibility with other copyleft licenses.

Beyond all this, you can only do what the law allows with your licenses, and if the law does certain things which make you unhappy, you are stuck until the law changes... (For example, I can try and use a copyleft license and only a copyleft license on my songs, but the law forces me to give another license should someone choose to avail themselves of it, whether I like it or not...)

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

I do get it.

"The only time someone is using your creations is ways that you didn't agree to is when they are in violation of your copyright license."

Ah, I am not speaking of them using my works in ways I do not agree to, I speak of them using my works in ways I may not like.

And if I wrote my own copyleft license, it would be incompatible with all that GPL code out there and I would not like that. Trade off. I choose to use the GPL for now. It means people can legally and with my permission do things with my code that I do not like them doing. But I can't stop those uses without paying a higher price elsewhere.

Like I say, I am not sure we need to have this argument. It would help ig you respond to something I say and you disagree with in some sort of point by point fashion I think. I am trying to indicate where I do agree with you.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

"No the GPL ensures that your work can not be used by others a way you don't like."

I am not sure what you are getting at with your complete post, but this is not necessarily so.

I do use the GPL for a lot of my code. But people can still use my GPL code in ways that I do not like. This is because there are trade offs involved. This is so in most of life I find.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

"If you want people to respect the GPL then you must respect copyright law in general."

This does not actually follow, or at best is a mis-stated point...

The GPL is an attempt at copyright-jitsu. It is perhaps an attempt to use copyright laws, which you may or may not agree with, but which you have to live with until they change, to undo some or all of the percieved ill effects of said laws.

So, it may actually boil down to this for some:

"I don't respect copyright laws, but if you want me to respect your copyrights, you need to respect the GPL..."

(I am not trying to accurately portray my personal take in the above.)

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

"Greetings!

I am the son of the former Nigerian Ministry for Lunar Development and I have a large sum of money held in his locked bank account..."

Greetings!

I am the son of the former Nigerian Ministry for Lunar Development and I have a large sum of money held in his lunar bank vault...

There, best of both worlds as it were...

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

And so move to fail one of my personal rules of thumb.

I don't mind too much people who dual license GPL code. I don't like projects which have "enterprise" versions and community versions with different code bases.

Give better support for your "enterprise" customers, fine. Well, we will see how this works out I guess, but this is just another of Sun's boneheaded moves in my book if this is what they are doing. They have twittered away so much potential and good will over the years with their inability to make up their minds and strongly back Free Software. And the funny thing is, IBM is not necessarily a whole lot better but somehow they seem to manage not to shoot themselves in the foot the way Sun seems to...

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band, libre music, sometimes gratis...

"Can't have it both ways."

True, but then neither can the vendors and others. Right?

When they advertise that their system is so easy, anyone can do it. It is really intuitive. Then they can hardly come back and say that the problem was due to lack of proper training on the part of the users. They just got finished selling the system on the premise that no training was needed.

And in the case of banks, if they require a particular, OS, browser, other settings to work, they can hardly properly claim that the customer is fully liable.

But, even though this may be brain dead, if it scares people into looking into the situation more closely, it may do some good despite being borked.

all the best,

drew
--
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band, libre music, sometimes gratis

"My point stands even if Jim had said "pretty please with a cherry on top" while wearing a pink hoola skirt."

I don't think it does when it comes to coaxing. I am not sure it does in any case.

If my approach to coaxing someone is to point out to them how they will benefit by doing what I suggest and then they decide to do it... You have a problem with that?

I am interested in Free Music as well as Free Software. When people are afraid to try it with their own music, I suggest they at least experiment. Release a single song that they think of as having good quality under a Free license. Promote it. See what happens. Unless they think there is a good chance they are going to be a one hit wonder, and there is a good chance that they will pick their only potential hit to put under a Free license,there is little risk in such an experiment.

Or I suggest that they start with someone else's Free and copyleft lyric or tune and build on that. This lowers their risk even more.

Baby steps if that is what it takes.

I think that the people to encourage are industry associations. Let them find a way to support Free Software to the benefit of their members.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band, libre music, sometimes gratis.

"you seriously have your wires crossed thinking you can't get paid for coding without software patents. MS knows this."

Indeed, you don't even need copyrights, but with them, you can do without patents. Patents are a play to get paid for software that other people write.

"saying that 'there is no such thing as free software. Nobody develops software for charity"

So, what exactly is the reason they give for "giving away" IE back in the early days? Let's see, they gave it away. But it couldn't have been free as there is no such thing as free software.

Well, there may or may not be any such thing as free software, but lucky for us, there certainly is such a thing as Free Software. And somehow, I think it is the latter they are more concerned with. I don't remember seeing them kick up such a fuss over tucows and nonags back when I was a windows puppy. Or even earlier. Freeware and Shareware never seemed to bother them too much. Free Software on the other hand...

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band - libre music, sometimes gratis

"Jeez. Is it so hard to be nice? Sure, I could screw the pizza place, but I don't understand why I should. The guy's just trying to make a living, which is hard enough without some misguided vigilante punishing your customers for an honest mistake."

When I get mistaken numbers here, I am nice about it. But if you read my original post on this, it was not a case of a business customers dialing the wrong number at any time. It was a case of the company's employees calling the wrong number in the middle of the night and waking up the household. And then getting biggity about it. A whole nother ball game.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band

"If you have a bank account and online banking, your bank (at least in most parts of the world) offers this."

Well, I have a bank account but haven't wanted online banking, but I will check into it and perhaps set up an account with online banking specifically for this purpose if any of the banks down here will offer this to me.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band

"I know it works in Canada."

Well, here where I am, if I understand things right, I can't even get a paypal account that can receive payments.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band - libre music, some gratis

"Nowadays, anyone can send money to your bank account with a simple email. No special "merchant account"account, no paypal, nothing."

Do you know if that works worldwide? I am not a US resident and do not have a US bank account.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=RPM08_Final_Tracks
Spaceman - a complete album of copyleft libre music available gratis at this time.

"I would forget CD Baby"

From their site:

"For a simple $35 setup, CD Baby can get your music selling worldwide on cdbaby.com, Apple iTunes, Rhapsody, Napster, eMusic and many more."

There are things I don't like about them, but the above is the interesting bit for me so far and why they made the list.

Do you know of any other simple way to get your music placed with those other stores?

Plus:

"We take all credit card orders for your CD, online or through our toll-free phone number, and ship it to them within hours."

Doing business online is not simple for me where I live.

Now, one thing I want to see happen is for people to start dealing with informal groups of individuals such as ourselves:

http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2008/03/online-collaboration-meets-online.html

That would make life a whole lot simpler if it works out how I think it could.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band - libre music, sometimes gratis

"Option 3 - why would someone "buy" a "free" ebook?"

I will reword it then:

Option 3. Buy a Libre standards based formatted ebook for way less than the paper version.

"Option 4: There's certainly nothing stopping people going the "No Starch Press" route ... check out what they're doing with torrents."

Not what I am suggesting exactly, but not a problem per se. See what Baen are doing as well: http://www.baen.com/library/

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band, libre music, some available gratis

"Option 2 in no way implies that - its not like we're talking about turning eBooks into the equivalent of crappy web pages. An acknowledment of sponsorship on the frontispiece along the lines of:

"The author(s) wishes to thank XYZ for their kind sponsorship of his/her/their work." ... and maybe their logo and web site, and a paragraph of what they do that is congruent to the topic of the book, and that might interest readers ... "

If I understand you, I am cool with that. So long as it doesn't try and preclude options 3 and 4. It is not perhaps a goal I am aiming for in the end unless you have more in mind though. One thing. I am not anti business. I am not anti income. I am not anti profit.

I am working on a page of ideas for income for our band "Packet In" that might interest you and that might parallel some of this.

http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Income

Our first album is available now under a CC BY-SA license.

http://www.packet-in.org.nyud.net/repo/RPM08/RPM08_plutekmaster_v1.4.ogg

I am sure we would all be at least somewhat happy to have a little income from our efforts. Some of us might even be OK with a lot of income from our efforts.

all the best,

drew

"Which would you rather have?

        * Option 1: A proprietary format eBook that you can't copy, share, pass around to others, back up to other media, etc., even after you paid for it?

        * Option 2: A free eBook that you can copy, share, pass around to others, back up to other media, etc., and that didn't cost you a cent?"

Well, gee, let's see...

None of the above?

Option 1 is a non-starter.

If that only leaves Option 2 and there are no others, and Option 2 entails forced ads in or about the text itself... Is also a non-starter. Plus, they could only ensure the ads were there if the format is DRM based in the first place.

Option 3. Buy a Free standards based formatted ebook for way less than the paper version.

Option 4. Buy the paper version and get the Option 3 ebook version included automatically.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band, libre music, some available gratis.

No thanks to the advertising in my books.

The last time I was prompted to write on eReaders and eBooks I put this up:

http://zotzbro.blogspot.com/2007/11/ereaders-and-ebooks.html

I sure hope these nasty plans don't end up having a place in my life. I hope others manage to stay away too. We can do better.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band making libre music. You can get some gratis.

"Don't count on any help from GE, Newscorp Disney or Time Warner. They are all in the pockets of our crooked government."

Funny, I see other people saying the government is in their pockets... ~;-)

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band.

OK,

I checked it out.

I still think I prefer IRV. I think because it does not treat the choices equally.

What problems do you run into trying to explain IRV to people?

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band

Well, my grandfather was a nice man. I saw him that way, and it seems that's how he was seen around town.

This type of problem seems to be fairly common.

I get lots of calls for Bay Street Garage and for some family, and occasional calls for Sandilands. I know of other places that have this issue.

I just be as nice as possible about it but I don't get them all through the night.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - Net band...

"Approval Voting FTW. It's a lot simpler to explain to people than IRV, and has all of the good characteristics that IRV was created to promote."

If you say so, I will look into it some. In any case, such a pledge should be above the ones I see suggested in my opinion.

You have any links to simple explanations?

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=RPM08_Final_Tracks
Spaceman - new Free and copyleft album by Packet In.

Sounds a bit like the tactic my grandfather said he used to solve a problem...

He had a phone number for years.

Out of the blue, he started getting calls in the middle of the night from security guards checking in on their rounds.

Seems a security company had started up and had a number close to his and the guards were mistakenly calling his number instead of theirs.

He asked the company to change their number. They said no and told him to change his.

The next time he got a call in the middle of the night, he told the guard that he could go home for the night.

Company calls up the next day all upset that he sent the guard home and telling him he couldn't do that.

He says he could and would keep on as long as the calls continued.

Number changed. Calls stopped.

(This is from memory, the details may not be 100% accurate, the gist of the story is as he told me.)

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band. Libre music available gratis. Could be for a limited time only. Then again, it could last as long as copyrights...

I think the number one pledge needs to be:

[ ] Support Instant Runoff Voting.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=instant+runoff+voting&btnG=Google+Search

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band making libre music available gratis. Enjoy.

I too think that there is no free rider problem when it comes to Free Software, but I see people talking tragedy of the commons problems for this domain none the less.

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

"Users are folks who just passively use the software without doing anything for the community - but we like to have Users because they give us the artistic gratification of seeing our software used and they sometimes become Symbiotes."

Bruce,

I think you are missing one key thing users give us... Just by using... Network effects.

I would have a much easier time asking people to switch from office to openoffice.org if everyone else was already using openoffice.org and not office. (I hate using that .org, has the other openoffice not gone away yet?)

We would be getting much better hardware support if we had more plain users. This is a positive input plain old users give us. Even if they don't contribute money or code.

Your thoughts?

all the best,

drew
http://packet-in.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
Packet In - net band... copyleft music?