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This isn't strictly true. The restricted term in Ontario is "Professional Engineer" or "P.Eng". The use of "engineer" in a software job title may be frowned upon by the PEO, but is not prohibited in law.

In Canada, it's not so much a matter of programs "should not" as "must not" call themselves "engineers". The terms "engineer" and "engineering" are legally protected in all jurisdictions in Canada, much like the terms "lawyer", "medical doctor", etc.

Programmers who are not licensed professional engineers may not call themselves engineers. The computer science and computer/software/electrical/systems engineering programs at Canadian universities are very different. The engineering programs are accredited at the national level (http://www.engineerscanada.ca/accreditation-resources) to ensure a minimum standard of education for the practice of engineering. There are also post-graduation examination(s) and internship requirements (typically 4 years) prior to licensing. There is no such accreditation for non-engineering programming/related programs.

Further, programmers who are not licensed professional engineers may not do the work of engineers, even if they don't use the term. Many companies have trouble with this one. The definition of what constitutes engineering work can be found here: http://www.peo.on.ca/index.php... - For example, a programmer who is not a licensed professional engineer may not design the software controlling a self-driving car because life and safety are at risk.

Laws & regulations: (For Ontario, but similar in all Canadian provinces/territories): http://www.ontario.ca/laws/sta... & http://www.ontario.ca/laws/reg...

Not sure how prevalent it is in the U.S., but in Ontario, Canada, "Software Engineering" is recognized as an official type of "Engineer" -- http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Software_engineering_page.html. In Ontario, like the states that you mentioned, it is illegal to call yourself an engineer without being granted the title by the self-regulating engineering body of the province. In order to be granted the title you have to taken part in an engineering university program that's been accredited by that body, and then take some further ethics tests, and work for a while under an engineer who has x years of experience.

It is a fairly new 'discipline' in engineering and I went to such a "Software Engineering" program that is accredited. The thing is, I know zero people in my graduating class of about 90 who actually took the extra steps to become a professional engineer. Mainly for two reasons; a) It only has a meaning in Ontario, and most of the lucrative software 'engineering' jobs are not in Ontario, and b) Even in Ontario, its relevance for employment is fairly limited... approaching useless I would say.

http://www.peo.on.ca/registration/eit.html

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/LicensingGuide&Application2011.pdf

There is a section to meet the minimum academic requirements. You don't necessarily need a Bachelor in Engineering, but you do need to meet some minimum requirements.

http://www.peo.on.ca/registration/eit.html

http://www.peo.on.ca/Applications/LicensingGuide&Application2011.pdf

There is a section to meet the minimum academic requirements. You don't necessarily need a Bachelor in Engineering, but you do need to meet some minimum requirements.

Agreed that software engineering is not as widespread protected and regulated as other types of typical engineering, but it is in many jurisdictions including mine. It should be protected everywhere to prevent confusion.

Here's a step in the right direction: http://www.peo.on.ca/enforcement/Quebec_MS_April2004.pdf

Although I graduated some years back, I still advocate the use of pen and paper to students because of final exams. You are going to be sitting in the gymnasiums writing 15 hours of exams in the space of a few days. By hand. On paper.

If you haven't been training up your hand all semester, your arm is going to break down after about 20 minutes because your muscles are not used to manual writing. Good luck being effective on your exams when your wrist is about to fall off.

I experienced this a couple of years out of school when I chose to write the Professional Practice Exam. About 45 minutes into the three hour exam in the freezing cold gym at University of Toronto, I just about gnawed my hand off.

I've been hoping for a long time that there would be some kind of CPA/SPE/bar/board equivalent for both IT and software design and engineering. It would really help our industries so very much. I believe it's only a matter of time before such things are created, but I really wish it would happen sooner rather than later.

No need for all that. We could start with a simple code of ethics. If people adhere to it, they don't need anything else, and if they don't adhere to it, no amount of certification or regulation will help.

It would include such complicated requirements as "Don't pirate shite. Not even good shite." "Don't enable invasion of privacy." "Do encourage open standards instead of shite." "Do document your own shite." "Shite happens is not an excuse." "When you leave a place, leave passwords, code, etc. behind - it's not yours." "NDA term is 1 year from exit. No more, no less."

There ae plenty of examples to draw from.

or, for those who prefer KISS:

10 REM BASIC CODE OF CONDUCT (PUN INTENDED)
20 DO NOT SCREW PEOPLE OVER
30 GOTO 10

/* C our new code of ethics */
#include <std/ethics.h>
int main(int argc, char* argv[], char* env[]) {
ethics_init();
ethics_run();
/* insert your code here */
ethics_free();
return NO_ETHICAL_VIOLATIONS_FOUND;
}

#regex code of ethics - see the power of regular expressions!
s/evil/good/gi;

I'd put a java version, butTheNamesOfTheVariousClassesWouldBeTooFuckingLongAndTheMethod-InvocationsAndAllTheTryExceptHandling-WouldBeSooooooooErrorProne-ItWouldBeAnEthicalViolationToDoSo and we'd end up in debugging ecursion hell anyway.

Not if the program of study you're looking for isn't available at other schools, or the body which regulates the profession you're looking to enter (which also legally controls the use of the title of your profession) requires successful completion of a degree in an "accredited institution of learning," where accredited means is on a list that they maintain. That narrows your choices somewhat; add in the fact that moving to another school outside of your country includes the cost of moving, living away from home, and the fees required for international school (and don't forget a student visa!), and you've got yourself quite the bill. Which is on top of your already-mounting student debt.

Additionally, the notion of "transferring" between most schools is laughable, at best. It's difficult enough to transfer within your school without losing all or most of your credits (and consequentially, tens of thousands of dollars of your money); doing so between schools is pretty much a huge pain in the ass.

Not that I'm complaining about the system - I don't know much about it, let alone have enough experience within it to judge it - but it's not as simple to use a less expensive school.

Seems stupid to me, and I still wouldn't worry about it myself, but I guess I should be more careful in my recommendations of what job titles people should use.

In Canada, Engineernig is a regulated profession. In order to call yourself an engineer, you need to be licensed. Generally, this is done by going to an accredited university, graduating, getting some experience under an already licensed engineer, writing an ethics exam, and passing that exam. Alternatively, instead of graduating from an accredited university, you can write a series of technical exams to verify competency in your field.

Certain job positions (particularly related to technical aspects of health and safety, and design jobs - i.e. structural design) require an Engineer to do the design and sign off because of the safety risks that could be involved. It's illegal to do these jobs and not be a licensed Engineer - and the charges can be quite hefty.

That being said, "network engineer" will most likely be called "network specialist" here, and this issue won't arise.

More info:

Professional Engineers of Ontario - http://www.peo.on.ca/
Engineers Canada (regulatory body for Engineering in Canada) - http://www.engineerscanada.ca/
Association of Professional Engineers and Geoscientists BC - http://www.apeg.bc.ca/

Except that if you look at the websites of these Canadian engineering association (such as the PEO), they make public all disciplinary proceedings, and document all punishment and consequences. LOTS of engineers those their licenses every year due to negligent and incompetent practice.

Licensing and regulation is not the problem. Perhaps you should ask yourself why the USA fails at it, and why other countries have had great success with it.

In the Canada where I live, there is software engineers, and they do call themselves software engineesr. They even have university programs for that. (https://www.mcgill.ca/engineering/degrees/undergrad/software/)

Now, in order to call yourself a "Software Engineer", or any kind of "Engineer" for that matter you have to be member of a professional order. The reason for that, is to make sure that not just any Joe Blow of the street can prentend to be an engineer without being one actually. (unlike in the USA) ...Protects the public against the posers.

http://www.peo.on.ca/

that's all.

So you probably live in a different one than the one were I live.

yah, the interesting thing is.. if you are in any other type of engineering (computer, electrical, mechanincal, mechatronics, enviromental, chemical, geological, civil... etc) you get a Bachelors of Applied Science, in Honours ___ Engineering

but if you are in Software engineering (which at my university - waterloo http://www.uwaterloo.ca/ (which im going to guess you are at as well), which is a joint engineering / math program you recieve a Bachelors of Software Engineering.

licensing is something in and of itself
see http://www.ccpe.ca/e/index.cfm, http://www.peo.on.ca/, and http://www.ccpe.ca/e/index.cfm

And for all you MCSE's out there, be aware that if you use the term "Engineer" north of the border, the provincial engineering associations can pursue you for breaking the law regulating the practice of engineering and use of the term "Engineer" according to the relevant statutes. In fact, the Canadian Council of Professional Engineers pursued the issue directly with Microsoft in 2001 and got an agreement that Microsoft would advise Canadian MCSE's not to use the term, but MS reversed itself a year later. Quebec's engineering regulatory body then went to court to force the issue, and won a symbolic fine against Microsoft ($1000) for misuse of the term. I can't find anything more recent than that.

Longer report on the ongoing issues w.r.t. software "engineering", authored by Ontario's engineering association, here.

Solve problems and call yourself an engineer in Canada without proper education if you want. Just don't ask to borrow the money for the 10k fine for your first offence and the 25k for each subsequent offence.

What really woke me up was their statement that only 6% of the worlds engineers are educated in the USA.

Pointing out the differences in the requirements to earn an MSCE designation and a P.Eng. licence, Lemay notes: "It is important for the public to know that the term 'engineer' refers to a person with a university engineering education and engineering experience who follows a professional code of ethics, not someone with just a few months IT training."

The same thing is true in Canada. Only those who have a degree in engineering and are licensed by the provincial engineering association are allowed to call themselves engineers.
Quebec's OIQ is trying to put an end to the title MCSE. click

Universities in Canada must have their curriculum certified by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board, the national body for regulating engineering education.
Furthermore, each province has a regulatory body which manages licensing of Professional Engineers (P.Eng.'s) which is a regulated designation. In Ontario this body is the PEO. They have a webpage here on the whole "software engineering" issue.

Universities in Canada must have their curriculum certified by the Canadian Engineering Accreditation Board, the national body for regulating engineering education.
Furthermore, each province has a regulatory body which manages licensing of Professional Engineers (P.Eng.'s) which is a regulated designation. In Ontario this body is the PEO. They have a webpage here on the whole "software engineering" issue.

Well, it's also something that's potentially harmful. There is a reason that universities need to be accredited to offer engineering degrees, and that once you become a professional engineer (PEng) you can lose that license if you don't do your job properly.

A lot of people don't realize that calling yourself an 'engineer' carries the same sort of weight and responsibility as calling yourself a doctor or a lawyer. You have people's lives in your hands (and often on a bigger scale than doctors - when doctors screw up, one patient dies.. when engineers screw up, bridges fall down and many people die). You can have your engineering license revoked for bad pratice. And just like doctors and lawyers, you can get in a lot of trouble for praticing engineering without a license.

I've met a lot of MCSE's that couldn't solve their way out of a cardboard box, and yet, they have the word 'engineer' in their title. And these are the people designing and implementing often mission-critical systems that our society depends on.

The PEO brought Microsoft Canada to court over this issue, and although Microsoft will still use the MSCE title, they (and people holding the title) are only allowed to use the acronym MSCE or full title, and are not allowed to call themselves simply 'engineers'. A lot more information on this can be found at PEO's Software Engineering site.

Basically, Microsoft is not willing to change the title (citing it would cost them too much, and they like the branding it has), and want to continue using the term 'engineer'. The CCPE and the various provincal bodies (PEO, APEGGA, etc) are now talking enforcement, saying anyone that misrepresents themselves is facing $50,000 fines.

Well, it's also something that's potentially harmful. There is a reason that universities need to be accredited to offer engineering degrees, and that once you become a professional engineer (PEng) you can lose that license if you don't do your job properly.

A lot of people don't realize that calling yourself an 'engineer' carries the same sort of weight and responsibility as calling yourself a doctor or a lawyer. You have people's lives in your hands (and often on a bigger scale than doctors - when doctors screw up, one patient dies.. when engineers screw up, bridges fall down and many people die). You can have your engineering license revoked for bad pratice. And just like doctors and lawyers, you can get in a lot of trouble for praticing engineering without a license.

I've met a lot of MCSE's that couldn't solve their way out of a cardboard box, and yet, they have the word 'engineer' in their title. And these are the people designing and implementing often mission-critical systems that our society depends on.

The PEO brought Microsoft Canada to court over this issue, and although Microsoft will still use the MSCE title, they (and people holding the title) are only allowed to use the acronym MSCE or full title, and are not allowed to call themselves simply 'engineers'. A lot more information on this can be found at PEO's Software Engineering site.

Basically, Microsoft is not willing to change the title (citing it would cost them too much, and they like the branding it has), and want to continue using the term 'engineer'. The CCPE and the various provincal bodies (PEO, APEGGA, etc) are now talking enforcement, saying anyone that misrepresents themselves is facing $50,000 fines.

Well, it's also something that's potentially harmful. There is a reason that universities need to be accredited to offer engineering degrees, and that once you become a professional engineer (PEng) you can lose that license if you don't do your job properly.

A lot of people don't realize that calling yourself an 'engineer' carries the same sort of weight and responsibility as calling yourself a doctor or a lawyer. You have people's lives in your hands (and often on a bigger scale than doctors - when doctors screw up, one patient dies.. when engineers screw up, bridges fall down and many people die). You can have your engineering license revoked for bad pratice. And just like doctors and lawyers, you can get in a lot of trouble for praticing engineering without a license.

I've met a lot of MCSE's that couldn't solve their way out of a cardboard box, and yet, they have the word 'engineer' in their title. And these are the people designing and implementing often mission-critical systems that our society depends on.

The PEO brought Microsoft Canada to court over this issue, and although Microsoft will still use the MSCE title, they (and people holding the title) are only allowed to use the acronym MSCE or full title, and are not allowed to call themselves simply 'engineers'. A lot more information on this can be found at PEO's Software Engineering site.

Basically, Microsoft is not willing to change the title (citing it would cost them too much, and they like the branding it has), and want to continue using the term 'engineer'. The CCPE and the various provincal bodies (PEO, APEGGA, etc) are now talking enforcement, saying anyone that misrepresents themselves is facing $50,000 fines.

The (accredited) Software Engineering program at my school requires students to have access to at least one computer running some form of Unix. Typically this is Mandrake or RedHat on the student's home computer but there are also Solaris and Linux labs on campus for student use.

Typically the only Engineering students who use the MS labs for programming are students in the first year software design class.

As for this not being an issue, you may want to check here, where it mentions at the bottom of the article about one guy being hit with a $56,000 fine, or here for what's happening with Texas sending out cease-and-desist letters.

Of course, you can also check with your own state/provincial board - they might be able to bring you up to speed on the 2 years of negociations that were supposed to bring an end to this practice - negociations that Microsoft then reneged on (what else is new). Don't take my word for it - write, phone or email your local body.

re: "Consider this: Microsoft has been ordered not to use the term MSCE in both the United States and Canada because Microsoft does not have the legal right to "certify" people as engineers."

cite?

Microsoft Debating World-Wide MCSE Name Change

1. I'm already at the karma cap, have been for ages, and don't give a shit what you think as an AC. Neither do you, since you posted as an AC.
2. For more about certification, and how the MSCE violates the law in many jurisditions, you can look for articles similar to this one
3. The parent poster had made the claim that they were "probably" refering to drivers. The article said otherwise. It said "code", which is not, last time I looked, the exclusive territory of driver writers.

You may want to read this as one example of many. So, stop talking out your ass, and stop astroturfing as an AC.

An engineer is someone who designs software and systems for unix.

From the PEO website:

What is a Professional Engineer?
The practice of professional engineering is defined in Section 1 of the Professional Engineers Act and comprises three tests. Professional engineering is:

1. any act of designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting, directing or supervising;
2. wherein the safeguarding of life, health, property or the public welfare is concerned, and
3. that requires the application of engineering principles, but does not include practising as a natural scientist.

If what you do meets all three tests, you are practising professional engineering and must be licensed by the association.

Professional Engineers of Ontario

Up here in Canada, the Professional Engineers Ontario have the same outlook WRT engineering.

Go to school, get a decent background in things other than programming (ie, thermo, materials, control systems, chemistry, calc, discrete math). Then when you graduate you can call yourself an engineer. Oh, what's that, you don't want to put in the time and effort required, then you don't deserve to call yourself an Engineer.

Another link at the PEO that's intersting is the software page.

Up here in Canada, the Professional Engineers Ontario have the same outlook WRT engineering.

Go to school, get a decent background in things other than programming (ie, thermo, materials, control systems, chemistry, calc, discrete math). Then when you graduate you can call yourself an engineer. Oh, what's that, you don't want to put in the time and effort required, then you don't deserve to call yourself an Engineer.

Another link at the PEO that's intersting is the software page.

Here in Canada, we have laws saying exactly who and who cannot call themselves an "Engineer" - even Microsoft is bound to these laws. The reason is accountability.

I've worked in engineering companies in the past, with Sparkys, Civies, Pipers, Mechs and thier attendant underlings. The thing that all of them had in common (other than being able to really screw up a computer. "But I'm an engineer!!!" :P) was they were legally accountable to the people they designed systems for, once that P.Eng was appended to thier name.

They are licensed in much that same way a doctor is for providing medical attention. They can be taken to account if they are negligent in thier designs. This is why most bridges, for example, can carry over twice thier rated weight for short periods - the engineer doesn't want to go to jail if someone decides to try such a stunt.

This differs from Software "Engineers" who are rarely, if ever, accountable for the systems they design - EULAs usually see to that. If you needed a license to write software, SorceForge could be (and in reality likely would be) hosted on a C64. It's all about being accounntable for your work.

Soko

There was a similar problem here in Ontario (Canada) to use the term "Engineer" you have to be lisenced. It is illegal to try and pass your self off as one if you are not lisenced. M$ had to drop the term engineer from their certification process. Check out Professional Engineers Ontario under Software Engineer for more details.

It all boils down to liability. If I certify a water treatment process safe and its not. Than I am in DEEP trouble. No more lisence, fines and basically the carrear is down the tube. In Canada and I think most of the commonwealth this is true.

Now I know a bunch of computer engineers, most of those guys are hardware, not software, but these guys wouldn't want to be engineers under Canadian law if they were doing programming. The computer software industry is still too immature to fall under these types of guidelines. Too many programs are not stable yet are shipped out because marketing wants them to.

I think I all boils down to currently the public is willing to let flawed software exist. And until someone dies nothing will change.

Like water in Ontario. People have to die before there is a backlash and things are fixed.

This issue has come up in Canada a few times in the past. See this for numerous article and editiorial links regarding this matter.

It's my understanding that the main objection to software programmers being called "engineers" is that an engineer is liable for faults and mistakes. He follows definite principles of design (how many definite principles/laws of design do we have for software?) and certifies that his design meets all of the standards and so on. And he's liable if he certifies something incorrectly.

Do you want to be liable for a fault in the accounts receivable program that you wrote last week? "That will be ten million dollars, please." How about the fault that the black-hats found in your firewall that's currently being used by numerous large businesses?

Read some of the articles cited in the above link. It's truly interesting material.

From the article...

...via Bell Canada's Virtual Private Network Enterprise (VPNe)system. Bell's VPNe uses Cisco Multiprotocol Label Switching technology to allow private networks to be created out of Bell's national IP structure.

How sweet will this be for Cisco marketing? But seriously, a properly designed MPLS network would be great for this. Congestion? Drop/delay all that !&#@(!* Kazaa traffic from those hardly profitable home DSL users in other classes.

As an aside, this will help usher in an era where engineers in the comms/networking/internet fields can once again see need and value for membership in professional engineering organizations, such as the PEO in Ontario. You don't want someone that only has a knack for networking to setup this type of environment. You want someone with the knack, the theoretical education, sufficient experience, AND legal liability for their design and implementation to pull this off.

Now, if only I could get to sending in my EIT papers...

Here in Ontario (and I believe in other juristicions as well) there is a move afoot in the Software Engineering realm.

However, I find your example flawed - No one is trying to append PEO or "Professional Engineer" on their title, but rather it is the job or task of "Software Engineering", which by my dictionary means "To plan, manage, and put through by skillful acts or contrivance; maneuver, software" : Is that not what most software developers are doing? Engineering means skillful building, and all apologies, but a professional engineering membership card means very little about the task being performed. If the value of their trade is limited by the hoarding of a word (in this case "engineer" in all forms), then that is just sad.

I was speaking to one of the members of the CEAB who visted LU on Monday. He recieved his P. Eng designation first in Electrical Engineering then later in Software. He said that the purpose of the Software Engineer should be for critical systems, namely those that if the fail, would put people in danger. The same as Electrical, Chemical, Mechanical or Civil or other Engineering professions.

This doesn't mean that only software engineers can work on such projects. It means that before the software is used it must be approved or 'stamped' by a Software Engineer with a P. Eng designation.

This is not currently required by law in Canada (AFAIK).

Again, this doesn't mean that all programs have to be written by software engineers, or approved by engineers. It is just proposed for software that is life-endangering.

For more information:

• Links on the Professional Engineers of Ontario Page

P.S. Education alone does not an engineer make! It is the combination of education and engineering.

P.P.S It is also possible to become an Professional Engineer without attending an accredited program. Several requierments must be met but it is possible.

So if you have an engineering degree that from a program accredited by the CAEB you only have to take the Profesional Practice Exam and meet the experience requirements. If you have another undergraduate degree or other education you have to take a lot more exams as determined and set by the PEO.

So if you have an engineering degree that from a program accredited by the CAEB you only have to take the Profesional Practice Exam and meet the experience requirements. If you have another undergraduate degree or other education you have to take a lot more exams as determined and set by the PEO.

So if you have an engineering degree that from a program accredited by the CAEB you only have to take the Profesional Practice Exam and meet the experience requirements. If you have another undergraduate degree or other education you have to take a lot more exams as determined and set by the PEO.

I think you're missing the point. It's not about programming, it's about design. You can't be an Engineer unless you've been trained as an Engineer.

The test has nothing about programming. The test is about ethics, professionality, creativity, and competence. They aren't testing your abilites.

Look at the Professional Engineers of Ontario website.

Source code has nothing to do with it.

You cannot become a good Engineer by experience alone. You can't learn good design by looking at other peoples' source code. You need to be able to turn a critical eye on the structure of your program.

A well engineered program does the following, in the following order:

Input

Calculation

Output

That's it. All the subroutines follow the same model. You can't learn proper structure by experience alone.

The professional engineering societies in Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia have developed criteria for registering Professional Engineers who specialize in Software Engineering.

Here is the PEO press release from this two-year old announcement.

I believe that the Texas Board of Professional Engineers is the only organization in the United States to create this designation, as of now.

Personally, I'm in the midst of my first term enrolled in the Software Engineering program at the University of Waterloo, here in Ontario. We are learning a combination of math, science, computer science, and engineering design principles. I am greatly enjoying it so far, although some days I wish I was in computer science (where they actually have first year electives). Two other universities in Ontario, McMaster and Ottawa, also have such a program up and running.

So although Professional Software Engineers are not commonplace today, the ball is rolling. This is a good thing in my heavily biased opinion and grossly unqualified opinion.

Canada already has software engineering as a true engineering discipline. McMaster University which I currently attend in S.E. has a program that has been accredited by the Professional Engineers Ontario. Our department is led by Dr. David Parnas, one of the fathers of software engineering (read the Mythical Man-Month by F. P. Brooks or Software Fundamentals by D. Parnas) Many other canadian universities are following with their own S.E. programs including the very strong in computer science University of Waterloo, the world renowned McGill University of Montreal and many others.

"Credentials" means that you have a society or association made up of members of a profession, that polices said members in lieu of government regulation. Take engineers (at least here in Ontario) for instance. Engineers have the Association of Professional Engineers Ontario which governs engineering in this province. They issue certifications, restrict who can legally use the term "engineer", discipline their members, ensure that "accredited" learning institutions are up to snuff... that kinda thing.

There's also the medical society, I think psychologists have something similar... there's quite a few, and I'm sure I don't know a quarter of them.

Bottom line: if you start a (recognized) Computer Scientist Association and regulate your members, ensure they're fit to be members, etc., etc., you can call yourself a Professional.

Of course, all this is COMPLETELY academic if there isn't anyone ensuring that ONLY "Professional" groups can get a .pro TLD.

"There's a party," she said,
"We'll sing and we'll dance,
It's come as you are."