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IT Certifications Summary
A reader writes: "Icrontic.com has a new article up called 'All You Need To know About IT Certifications.' It talks about several of the major Microsoft certifications, and of course, a few of the Linux certs, including Linux+ and RHCE. "
>Again, because it's Microsoft, you will be required
...
>to answer the questions the way Microsoft would
>answer then, which isn't always necessarily the
>best way.
Typical answer sheet:
1) It's not a bug, it's a feature.
2) It's not a bug, it's a feature.
3) It's not a bug, it's a feature.
Is certification really that important vs. having the experience anyways?
Before you start "flame throwing", this is just a question!!! Some years back I obtained Macintosh Certification and PowerBook Certification. Since then I have went on to A+ and MCP. Not much but it does help. I was wondering, does Apple Computer still offer this certification? Is it even worth putting it on my resume'? By the way, I give up on MS certs. and am switching to Linux!! I am tired of have to start practically from scratch with MS every 2 years! And, as far as Cisco Certs go, I know some MORONS who have passed the CCNA!! Besides, I hear that is even a Network + Cert. is looked at by employers as better than a CCNA. Oh well, we all know what these papers are anyway; a foot in the door, maybe.
Why ?
Is there any answer ?
Will we ever know ?
They should have called this "System Administration and Network Administration Certifications" not "IT Certifications". How could they leave out Oracle certs, Java certs, security certs, etc.
Why in the hell did Oracle get stuck in the end? Oracle Certs are some of the most valuable out there, and they're fairly damn popular, too, with those who know what in the hell they're doing.
Here is a mirror.
Awesome! My nomination for best troll of the week.
I would have appreciated information on other certifications such as those provided by Sun or some other UNIX vendors. All we have here is Microsoft and Linux stuff.
My company offered to pay me through an MCP better than nothing I suppose...it sis come in useful, I had an incentive to learn some prigramming and put together a little quiz applet to help me pass.t er.html
http://www.publict.co.uk/applets/70210/tes
Hey, I'm 16. Hypothetically speaking, would anybody give someone my age a job if they had some certs? I mean not like a bench-tech at CompUSA for your A+, but like a Novell admin (or even like an apprentice) with a Network+, CNA, CNE, and CISSP (and of course experience). If I could scrounge up the money, I could pass the A+, Network+, CNE, CNA, MCP, and (with a little studying) CISSP. I have experience to back it up, so don't whip the "no experience" card out on me. So all it boils down to is: should I get some certs and look for an IT job, or not waste my time (and money) and just get a normal teenager job?
I belong to the ______ generation.
This article missed all the certs in the security field.
CISSP
CISA
SANS GIAC
In general, CISSP and CISA are more heavy on theory and SANS GIAC are more on practical knowledge (hands-on). Notice that GIAC actually offers many different certs in different area.
They are all hard to get. For example, CISSP requires a 6 hours exams (which isn't easy at all). GIAC requires a practical assignment (to show hands-on knownledge - require real world experience) as well as one or two 2 hours exam.
One problem I noticed with this article is that the author is under the impresion that you need a CCNA certification before you can get a CCNP certification, or a CCNP before a CCIE. This, flatly, isn't true. I met more than one person who has gone stright to CCIE when I went up for a litle session with Cisco in their Northern Virginia offices. The truth is that if you know your shit you can go straight to the CCIE without any other certification (but if you don't know it you're out quite a bit of money). They also seem to completely ignore the CCDA (design) and CCDP that can still culminate in a CCIE. And, as a sidenote, I was told that noone has all 3 CCIE certifications, though a couple guys had all of them when there were only 2.
If you want to talk about "real world value" in a certification, those "in the know" will tell you the only real linux certification is a blindfolded install of Debian!
After that, the MS certifications (The following are valid responses to a blue screen of death...) are pretty shallow.
It all goes downhill from first post
I seem to have a problem I am a DEC Hosted Certified Professional...
During Interviews I talk about "Bit bucket full - rip paper..."
But I keep being asked about numbers and periods...
What is going on?
I have struggled with this certification issue and my employer didn't want to pay the money for RHCE. Then one day I seredipitously managed to stumble across LPI Linux Certification in a Nutshell by O'Reilly.
Suprisingly the LPI isn't covered in the article.
As Linux certs go it doesn't depend on the financial solvency of a company (get an RHCE and if RH goes out of business then what?). It's vendor neutral (rejoice Mandrake and Suse fans).
Plus there's an animal book on it! Instant credibility.
Plus if you want to own your own certs and not have an employer to hold it over your head you can't beat the price (only a few hundred bucks for the whole shooting match).
More info available at lpi.org
Here in Southern California, I have only seen MCSE or the A+ certs asked for in job postings.
Has anyone seen a job ad asking for a ccna/ccnp/ccie?
:q!
Eight years ago I started out as a UNIX administrator by reading "Essential System administration" and then getting an entry level job making not much money. From their I started reading "DNS & Bind", "sendmail", etc, etc. Now I am a Sr. Unix Administrator (with a book shelf full of Oreily books). A few years ago I wanted to get into databases, so I read Oracle beginners guide and then the DBA handbook. I started doing DBA tasks and my company sent me to a backup and recovery class to get up to speed on it quickly. I have no certifications, nor do I have the desire to pursue them.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if one really wants to get into IT they have to enjoy it to the point that they feel motivated to learn new things on their own. Too many people just equate certification to salary.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
Anoyne have any experience with the SAIR and the LPI certifications?
I got an exam cram and a nutshell book for them and have been using them as bathroom reading material. Even if I never end up taking the tests, it is nice that a certification forces you to learn certain things.
Being that a good portion of us are self-taught Linux guys, I've never really found a use for sed and awk until I read about them in this book. And I've even started learning vi! (ugh).
One day I guess I'll got get a cert - comp.os.linux, www.linuxdoc.org, and the Ars Technica Linux Forum probably wouldn't have that much weight on a a resume. Heh.
The RHCE certification is to Linux what the CCIE certification is to networking. An extraordinary amount of knowledge is required on all levels in order to attain this certification. RHCE is without a doubt one of the most difficult certifications to get.
I had heard this exam wasn't all that bad. Any stories from people out there who have taken it? Esp. from those who went in confidently (like I'm about to next month) and ultimately failed?
From reading the article, the author made it sound like the Network+ cert was quite well recognized and valuable. I've done the A+ and now the CCNA, and looked at the Network+ (even bought a study guide). Frankly, it didn't seem that impressive - it looks pretty much like MS' Networking Essentials test, and most general concepts are already covered by the CCNA.
Anyone have experience with employers placing more weight on the Network+ over a Cisco cert??
At the end of the day, after many ppl asking "Why BlahBlah certification no included?"
/. comments will become refering place for people looking for IT certification.
This
-- Hasbullah bin Pit (sebol)
While you're at Icrontic don't forget to check out
- "reviews" - positive write ups on any free stuff they were able to scam
- "links" - links to slashdot that is
- "articles" - a great way to get an idea of what a little fuckwit runs this site.
I'll bet you anything you like the story was submitted by an Icrontic webmaster.
The CISSP requires a minimum of three years professional security experience. The SSCP (Systems Security Certified Professional), sort of an entry-level CISSP, requires only one. The CISA (Certified Information Systems Auditor, IMHO the most respected security cert) requires four. IIRC, at least one of these may also require you to be 18, so be careful about age requirements. You might also look at the GIAC (Global Information Assurance Certification) family of certifications, which doesn't appear to have any experience requirements.
#!
(You forgot that answer. That's Microsoft's answer to a lot of questions.)
I'm studying for my MCSE right now, and I whizzed through the practice questions on the Windows 2000 Professional (workstation) part last night. One of the questions in particular caught my eye. It said (paraphrased):
"Which of these two operating systems [Windows 2000 Professional | Windows 2000 Server] can you run a public web server on?"
Well, of course, I picked both. I'm running Apache on Windows 2000 Pro right now, and IIS also comes as an optional add-on. When I looked up my answer, I was surprised to find that I was wrong. Then I remembered that I wasn't wrong because of the technical capabilities of the OS, but because of the licensing agreement, which states that you can only connect 5 computers to a Pro OS at any one time for file sharing and "Internet Information Services".
It's a different mindset. Being used to Linux servers, I assumed that the only thing limiting me from running what I wanted was hardware. However, to pass the MCSE, you not only have to know the technical features of the OS, but also what Microsoft wants you to do with it.
BTW, if you think the MCSE is easy, try taking it yourself. I've been doing Linux and Windows system administration for years, and this stuff still isn't coming naturally to me. It's also good experience for anyone adminning Windows boxes, as you will definitely know how to set up disk images and domain controllers once you are done with it. If you think Windows Update is the best way to maintain your set of 5+ Windows PCs, definitely take it, or at least read the study guides. It might make your job a lot easier.
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
If I were hiring, I would mentally eliminate all non-technical experience, personally, unless it was relevant to the position somehow.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
+5 Funny. Damn that's good!
I took the CCNP exams last November after taking a two-week bootcamp course. I took over at my office and we were tired of paying $200/hour for consultants to do work we should be doing in house. The boot camp I took from Global Knowledge was excellent with very good instructors. The exams are tough but they ask real world questions.
If you want to study at home I suggest the Cisco Preparation Series books as well as a lot of equipment. Without being comfortable on the equipment it's hard to get used to all the commands and which one is appropriate in certain places.
I learned a lot in the class and getting the cert...things I use every day now and it has really cut down on our consulting expenses and makes me a lot more valuable.
The CCNA exam is a joke. Every desktop support guy I know has it or is getting it. So, don't expect to get a job working on routers with that. Without real time on a production router most people won't care at all.
It looks to me like they copied the page exactly from MS, changed the background to black(which is why the pictures looke crappy) and added small comments, It's nice to have a collection of most certs in one place, but at least make it look like you wrote it.
"The secret of success is to know something nobody else knows." -Aristotle Onassis
The fact that the Novell CNA/CNE certifications weren't even listed says something about how little weight they carry these days. I completed mine about this time last year, and stupidly thought it was my ticket to fame and fortune. Turns out, even in Utah (Novell's stomping grounds and probably its most die-hard install base), there's not an overwhelming demand for it.
Now, the program I got my CNE from was an excellent program. By the time you took the test, you had a good deal of hands-on experience, and really understood the material. The course even included an internship with an IT department. It certainly beat the pants off those courses advertised on TV ("Get certified in four weeks, and make six figures a year for life! Call now!") But job hunting was just depressing. Send off a dozen resumes, and get maybe one call back. The closest I ever got was a, "Well, we would have hired you but we decided to eliminate the position."
Certifications don't mean a whole lot. Even within my own program, there was a wide variance in the competence of the students. I'd say that the entire concept of certifications was designed to make life easier on HR departments. And too many of the training schools have the "certify them quickly and let them get experience on someone else's dime" mentality. It cheapens the value of the certifications themselves, and hurts the entire industry.
In my case, I've decided that I can finally afford to go back and get a CS degree. It's not the ticket to fame and fortune either, but at least I get to learn some cool stuff. But if someone in the Salt Lake area is looking for a geek who knows a bit of everything and will work dirt cheap, I'm interested.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
Well that's why you will never be hiring, becuase you are a fucking moron with no clue about what is needed in the real world.
How can this article ignore two of the most important certifications on the market right now, LPI and cSAGE??
They're both platform-independent, they're both psychometrically valid, and they're both of paramount importance to anyone looking to run computer infrastructures that include *nix systems.
cSAGE is an entry-level exam designed to certify competence in the practice of systems administration, and it was developed by the community, just like LPI (in cSAGE's case, it was developed by the community of systems administrators and the folks at USENIX and SAGE - The Systems Administrators Guild.
Isn't everyone tired of taking exams designed to test your ability to memorize trivia about a vendor's products? Why would you want yet another certification just because vendor $FOO has cranked out a new version of their widget? Wouldn't you rather have certifications that are designed to qualify your ability to do your job, rather than your ability to memorize?
That's exactly what cSAGE is all about.
.@.
Does anyone here on Slashdot hold a particular opinion of Sun's Java developer certification exams? I'm only 18, and it's a very old story: it's hard to get job experience without already having experience. I'm interested in knowing whether those tests would be worthwhile if I wanted to break into the Java programming racket.
Why aren't *you* out there using that valuable cert to make $200/hour doing consulting?
Unless you own the company you work for you're a sucker and a martyr.
You're not more valuable. You're now under paid and under employed.
Yet another clueless geek gets reamed by management....
I'm not just insane I'm certified insane.
I have always chosen certifications based on what I want to be doing. I have passed Linux+ and am currently working toward RHCE. I've also looked at Sair, but have not started it yet. I've passed Cisco's first test (CCNA) as well as a couple of CompTIA tests (A+ Net+) but I refuse to take a Microsoft test, because I don't want someone to hire me to work with Microsoft products. Its not what I want to be doing. There are people, that that's there thing, and that's great. Its whatever works for them, but no MCP/MCSA/MCSE for me.
Trying is the First Step to Failing --Homer Simpson
Only stupid people get certs.
Resumes with certs go directly to the recycle bin.
unless you prove to me that you are a professional in your field. MCSE, et all, means nothing to me when hiring you. I've simply seen too many newly minted "systems engineers" from third rate night schools that exist only to "teach the test".
These poor folks have no practical knowledge, no understanding of the way systems actually work, etc, etc.
I know this is harsh, but I have the HR screeners send any resumes highlighting certifications rather than work experience right to the folks who hire for the help desk.
I know this is far out, but I believe IT should be treated as a profession, and having vendors hand out certifications on thier products no more makes an engineer than learning how to operate X-ray equipent makes one a radiologist.
A Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is to computing what a McDonalds Certified Food Specialist is to fine cuisine.
--
If you moderate this, then your children will be next.
No. My skill set in that area doesn't let me bill at $200 per hour. If I had all the experience and a CCIE like the guys we hire then yes, I could bill that much. Even then, the consultants don't get $200/hour, the company they work for does.
The work we needed done wasn't real high end, but more than the previous employees could handle. Now we can handle it.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Check out the first page of the article.
What the hell is a cahoona? How about KAHUNA? I don't suppose, though, that you can expect much from someone who really believes in that idea.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
Individual certifications are extremely limited. They really only tell you that someone has a passing familiarity with something. What employers really need are experienced and comptetent professionals. They should look more to professional qualifications. Organisations like the British Computer Society can provide these qualifcations. I'm sure the US has organisations which provide similar professional engineering qualifications.
http://www.bcs.org.uk/
Deleted
It is interesting to note that, at least in Canada, it is illegal to state that you are a 'Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer'. This is because you are then fraudulently representing yourself as an engineer. Microsoft even issued a memo about this a year or two back. That said, you certainly can state that you have passed the MCSE, so long as you do not spell out the 'E'.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I just started teaching night classes for a local training company. On consecutive nights I teach a class in A+ (PC Hardware), Network+, Server+, 2000 Pro and 2000 Server. Nominally I work as an independent consultant, but that's not going so well right now.
Most of my students are out of work Steelworkers. Almost all of them cite their desire to find a stable career as their reason for seeking certification.
What's sad is, if I had a stable career, I would never be teaching these people - none of whom really have the requisite experience that should go along with any cert (3 - 6 months for A+, one to two years for the others). I can't tell them that. At $2000 per class, how could I?!?
One of the most surprising things about IT certs is the numbers. Since the A+ certiification started in the mid-80s, there have been 260,000 people certified (Comptia certs are for life). Microsoft, which decided that those who obtained NT4 MCSE are still MCSEs after originally stated they wouldn't be starting this year, says there are 470,000 people with the MCSE cert.
There is a lot more need in the world for competent techs than there is for folks who are marginally qualified to work on high-level business systems. There is a lot more need for competent people than there is for certifications.
I tell my students that certification does not mean they're ready for the high-paying jobs they all hear about. I tell them that certifications represent a minimal standard for competency, and that the best thing they can do - whether they get certified or not - is to learn the lessons I teach, not the answers to the questions on the tests.
As a trainer, a certified IT professional, and a genuinely clueful computer guy, it's a lesson I only hope they (and anyone who reads this) take to heart.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
It is important to note that basically all of these exams are product certifications. Having an MCSD certifies that you are familiar with the Microsoft development environment but it does NOT certify that you know much about software engineering. Certainly, Microsoft tries to ensure that you actually know how to program but they don't do a very good job; that's not a dig at Microsoft, though, as they are primarily ensuring that you know their tools.
Now, some companies will hire you if you have sufficient product certifications. Others require a degree from a recognised institution. At the place where I work, we are of the latter mindset. Someone who applies to our company and just lists Microsoft certifications will have their resume instantly trashed. Someone who has a BSc in Computing Science will be seriously considered. Depending on what we want them for, a BSc and an MCSD _may_ carry more weight than a BSc alone. It certainly shows that someone is dedicated to their field. But the important thing to note is that an MCSD by itself adds NO VALUE WHATSOEVER to a potential employee unless they have a legitimate degree as well. Of course, this is just the current place I am employed.
Prior to my current employment, I worked at a company which was huge on Microsoft certifications. They most definitely would hire a developer who only had an MCSD and treated such certifications as more valuable than BSc's. That said, the company is now in dire straights and the average developer there was of far lower calibre.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
Please let us all know when you are in charge of hiring for a company. I would like a head's up so that I know which stock I should short because of another doomed dotcom.
If you ever had a CompTIA certification, they said this promoting the idea that they speak for you . Angry? Me too. Now, what to do about it? Hmmmm...
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
They neglected the most challenging and most relevant cert to me: the Alteon Certified Engineer. Alteon Web Switches are advanced L4-L7 networking devices for load balancing, redirection, global load balancing, etc... I'd be interested to see how many out there have experience with ACE or equivalent (e.g. F5, Arrowpoint). What is the visibility in the field for this type of cert?
... only to realize I already had plenty of toilet paper.
- The early worm gets eaten by the bird.
And just exactly where are people going to attain work experience if everyone does as you, and sends them all to the help desk?
On the help desk? Seriously. I think the IT trade needs to be treated more like many other sophisticated trades, like electricians, where you go to trade school, work as an apprentice, journeyman, foreman rankings through proven experience.
This of course highlights my other peeve, the way most help desks are organized -- they're a call center dumping ground full of retards that acts largely as a wall built around the more senior people to protect them from end users. The help desk should be totally split from the phone answering/training function (ie, people that just answer the phone). They should be treated and paid like they have a future in IT and expected to act, work and learn like they have one.
Treating sysadmin/network management like a trade with a natural progression of skills advancement makes so much sense because it involves everyone. Experienced people get to share their experience and knowledge with less experienced people, and less experienced people get real valuable experience and a better career path.
Chicken and egg, really... You need certs to get a foothold, but people want experience not certs. I admit, I was VERY lucky, in that my experience was limited and my certs were attained specifically for the resume. I happened to find an employer who was willing to take a chance, and now they are sending me to take certification exams on their dime, and you know what?... those are the ones that I learn the most in because they are the most relevant. I currently have: A+, Network+, MCP+I, MCSE, CCNA, CCSA (Checkpoint), ACA (Alteon Certified Administrator), ACE (Alteon Certified Engineer), Only a few of those are really relevant, the rest is redundant or "resume-only-relevant". In the future, I plan on: SAIR Linux (or RHCE), CCNP (CCIE if I can actually motivate to take a lab test!!), and CCSP. Those I plan for in the future, however, are things that I want to learn as a geek anyway, and its always nice to have resume material if I'm going to take the time to learn anyhow. Just my 2 cents.
Anyone who contacts my firm (consulting, networking, administration) for a job gets asked one question right off the bat. This question eliminates lots of cookie-cutter certified newbies.
"Name 3 operating systems NOT made by Microsoft."
If candidates mention Cisco's IOS, Linux or any of the Unixes they get asked to send in a resume.
We are not very interested in certifications. Our experience with certified people has been mixed, but generally if they had good experience that was more important than any certs they had.
We also round file resumes which indicate that the candidate worked at his own business while also working for someone else. Especially if they mention doing the same things. We sure don't want our own employees out there competing with us on their weekends.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
Having a bigger dick does NOT mean that you'll have more sex.
Having a bigger dick is not even a guarantee that you will be able to perform better sex.
Having a big dick may enhance certain aspects of your sex life with certain women, but it is no sweeping guarantee to anything else (like lifting heavy things with your dick like those monks on TV.)
Look at certifications at what they are: enough right answers to questions that vendors think are important. At the very least, having a MSyz cert could illustrate to you the blatant biases of Microsoft. (Answer: "Add more RAM") Knowing how vendors "think" about particular things could help you make some crucial decisions in how to deploy particular technologies in a big enterprise environment.
There are times, however, when (assuming I was an IS Manager) I would probably be hesitant to assign the average MCSE to design a particular architecture. I'd be afraid that s/he would not the broad networking and computing perspective to make something scalable.
There are times when I would NOT want a Linux assclown working under me. Depending how this person came across in an interview, I just might be afraid that this person would engage in some jihad against all MS-related things in my organization. I may not be ready to stir that turd.
Even "years experience" doesn't mean anything by itself. It's up to an IS Manager to grill the candidate on how exactly this person used this technical knowledge/experience to make their last corporate masters lots of money. If they can't answer this, then you need to look at another candidate.
I also have seen all sorts of guys come out of Microsoft Academy. One guy didn't know what UDP was. Another guys had no experience but was as sharp as hell with MS stuff (a skill that, in the right environment, can be worth gold!).
One must weigh about all these factors collectively. Certifications are such a small part of someone's value, and it's important to recognize their true place and purpose. If you're really interesting in getting a quality IT person, ask them creative questions:
"What does your home network look like?"
"What would you say to a user who told you to go fuck yourself?"
"Have you ever played with the registry?"
"What network/computing publications do you read regularly?"
"Draw me the most complex network you've ever worked on."
"Three men, traveling with their wives, came to a river. There they found one boat, but it could only carry two people at a time. Since all the husbands are extremely jealous, no woman can be left with a man unless her husband is present. How do they cross the river? (You can assume that each man has just one wife, and that each woman has one husband)."
You know, I thought like that.
Then I realized, a lot of people who worked at shitty jobs saving for school, or waiting for better positions are good hardworking people.
I think that many people focus on certifications and technical aptitude, which are essential.
But being able to work with others, and just working hard are just as important.
I work with a guy who may very well be quite intelligent. But he's a jerk, he bosses everyone around expects his stuff to be everyones top priority, and generally makes a mess. Many people don't know his name, just "That guy everyone hates".
The guy who only has a bunch of one time consulting jobs might not be the person you want to hire. Where as the hard working guy who's been waiting tables might have the personal skills to work well with coworkers.
Just a though
An MCSE is the cunputer world's equivalent to a Madonld's Certified Food Specialist in the field of high cuisine.
The article forgot an important new certification now being offered by the IEEE Computer Society. You can now become a Certified Software Development Professional (CSDP). This is a certification from a professional society, not a company trying to sell (hard|soft)ware and it has serious, vendor-neutral requirements. You have to account for 9000 hours of software development experience (close to 5 years!) and you have to agree to a code of ethics. This is the kind of certification that will make people take the software development industry seriously. Check it out. I'm working on mine now.
Four fifths of all our troubles in this life would disappear if we would just sit down and keep still. -C. Coolidge
Go read the braindump sites.
"I read the study guide and took the test the next day. I've never even touched a router!"
Over and over and over and over. It's a beginner cert, but it's already way over diluted.
If so, is it illegal to sing about Casey Jones?
Like it or not, here are the top 3 certifications in any field related to CS...
Doctor of Philosophy in Computer Science
Masters in Computer Science
Bachelor of Science/Art in Computer Science
Here's a question.. who would you hire; a Phd who specialized in networking theory, design, and algorithms, or a CCIE to design a network? I'll give you a hint.. it's the choice that starts with P, especially if its for a govt. contract.
GIAC is certainly is a good deal of work. The practical requires a good week or more of effort to complete in terms of research and writing. GIAC has posted the practicals of those who have completed the cert to get some idea of what they require. I know of at least 3 other people who tried for the cert at the same time I did but didn't complete the work successfully. Partly because unlike other certs there is a timelimit of about 3 months to complete everything.
They've also stated that their goal is not to have a deluge of people with the cert(unlike Cisco, MS, Novell, etc. who advertise how many are certified). If they start seeing a lot of people passing the cert, they'll make the cert harder to obtain. Worth pursuing, definately.
sheldon - GCWN #168
A CS degree from an accredited 4 year university.
It is a ticket to ride. The only people who knock a CS degree are the people who don't have one.
Trust me, a CS from Duke, or NC State, or Penn State, or Michigan is light years ahead of any vendor cert.
There is no substitute.
"I would probably be hesitant to assign the average MCSE to design a particular architecture"
Good plan.
An architecture is not vendor specific. Perhaps you're mistaking an architecture with design? Very common mistake.
In fact, I wouldn't let anyone do an architecture for me unless:
1) They had 15-20 years of experience (there's no such thing as an architect with 5 years of experience).
2) They were a genius with an IQ over 200.
Other than that, the guy is just pretending.
Call the three men A, B and C. A and his wife cross the river. A returns. B's wife and C's wife cross the river. A's wife returns. B and C cross the river. B and his wife return. A and B cross the river. C's wife returns. A's wife and B's wife cross the river. C returns. C and his wife cross the river.
You want someone who has a good understanding of general computing and networking issues. Someone who can think through bigass problems logically.
"We also round file resumes which indicate that the candidate worked at his own business while also working for someone else. Especially if they mention doing the same things. We sure don't want our own employees out there competing with us on their weekends."
This is interesting. I hadn't thought of this as a black eye. I have worked on several other projects (mostly nonprofit, etc.) on the weekends. I always list these, because I figure that more experience = better chance of getting hired. I wouldn't want what I did on the weekends to appear as if I competed with my employers (even though the nonprofits were too poor to actually pay me anything, and I did it for free.)
Although many rural areas may house all their information back at larger datacenters in big cities. In that case, an Oracle cert may not do you a lot of good.
This is bullshit. I know a lot of guys who have gotten a good computer science degree. They then got a cert because it helped position their company as a reseller (getting them access to support, better prices, etc.).
...but that doesn't mean you'll like the job.
getting certified should not be a goal, getting a good job with enough pay to make you happy should be the goal. if your goal is to get certified, then once you get a job with that certification, expect your productivity to go down fast. sure if you have a CCIE you probably get paid a lot, but if you are not interested in the work in the first place, you will not like your job.
getting an MCSE just because you want a tech job is a lousy excuse. getting an MCSE because you use the technology and you like Windows administration will be the best benefit. if you don't know or like windows to begin with, getting a certification in windows, and then working in that field will not make you like it any more.
personally, the only certification i have is for unsupervised radiation handling, but that doesn't do much for this thread, and it also doesn't help me get a job.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
I have my CCNA, CCDA, and MCSE. On top of that 5 years experience as a network admin. I STILL can't find a job in Indy right now. I'm working as a permatemp at Compaq fixing hardware that the line can't seem to put together right (for $10/hr). If someone tells me that I am "overqualified" or "we know you'll leave when the economy picks back up" I'm going to go postal. Thus why I'm going back to school to get the PhD. Oh wait, i'll be waaaaaay overqualified then.
Everytime I hear those commercials for IT training at masterpro I want to call them up and tell them what a bunch of F!@#ing liars they are. You will not make $70,000 in IT with no experience but a stupid piece of paper. You might get $25,000 if you are lucky. You'll be doing Level 1, I can tell you that much.
If so, is it illegal to sing about Casey Jones?
Somewhere in Southern Ontario there is in fact one "Casey Jones P.Eng". I met him in a former career, while working at a municipal electric utility.
He seemed pretty sanguine about the whole thing...
.siggy
The term computer programmer is not equal to that of Software engineer. The software engineering process is very long and annoying. Computer programming is only a slight part of that process. A real software engineer has to go through the same things as a "real" engineer. They have customers that want to do X. They develop a way for X to happen and then they have people implement their solution. Just as a civil engineer doesn't actually build the bridge, just designs it.
It is sad when many companies give job titles to their programmers as Software Engineers. Anyone with a CS degree has gone through at least one software engineering course and understands that software engineering has very little to do with actual computer programming.
...I summon the vast power of certification!
Can't find the original Dilbert strip, but I think it ran Sept 2000.
.siggy
The BCS qualifications include both examination results, academic stuff with real world experience.
Anyone can join, there are multiple levels of membership based on academic qualifications and experience. Full membership requires four years membership in the industry. You can also gain chartered engineer status with appropriate academic qualifications. This is *real* engineering, not the poxy Microsoft definiton of engineering.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
God guys, I didn't mean to be flamebait. I was just being honest.
If you are currently working in non-technical positions, and having trouble finding a real job, and my message pisses you off, I'm sorry. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel the way I do.
I would of course hire someone with McD's on their resume over someone who sat around their house doing nothing, or someone who had lots of short jobs on their resume that they couldn't explain why they quit or got fired from. It's just that we are talking about something you don't put on a professional resume, unless you are fresh out of college.
How many people with real experience do you see with McD's at the bottom of their work experience? None! Lots of people held shit jobs, but once you have some real experience, it's not something I would leave on your resume, and if someone did leave it there, I would mentally discard it. Better than assigning mental demerits for it.
I worked at a grocery through high school. Is it on my resume? No. It was probably the hardest job I ever had, not being in very good physical shape, slinging heavy boxes for 4 hours, after going to school all day, wasn't easy.
I do have input into IT hiring decisions where I work, if and when we ever hire anyone again, it's been slow for manufacturing these last couple years.
I'm not trying to shit on anyone here, and I'd appreaciate the same from you ACs.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Bad analogy. The current situation in IT applied to medicine would be looking to hire an optometrist and only looking at those certified with XYZ brand of equipment with at least 2 years experience on the specific XREW123456A machine. No career out there is as focused on the latest and greatest crap of the moment as IT.
I stopped reading before page 3.
Page 1 Summary: MCSE is cool. Must get it.
Page 2 Summary: MCSA is new and cool. Must get it.
I didn't even go into page 3 since the link was titled MCDBA.
I was beginning to hope no one paid money for this article as it appears to be a copy and paste of all of Micorosoft's propoganda crap.
Short suggestion since this subject seems to come up on a regular basis.
1. There is no substitute for a degree to get an interview. CSCI is a plus but get a degree. I always reccomend Bachelors of Business Administration or MBA if you can stomach the crap they will teach you long enough to get the paper.
Reason: They'll always pay some shmuck more $$ than you to be a manager. Someday you may want to be that shmuck. Hope not, but this degree will make that jump easy. (Boss, if you readin I didn't say that was you.)
2. Certs are cool, but don't rely on them for anything, and take the ones you want to take...not some crap a trade rag or M$'s site tells you are good certs.
3. Real world: There is no substitute for experience. That being said get a job where some place won't mind you breaking stuff while you learn and be gentle. You'll get there.
I'll shut up now.
Sysadmin with no certs and a music degree for 3 yrs now.
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ahahahaha your PWP doesn't do SHIT to Mozilla!
CISA is easy. It's a bunch of easy security questions, and a bunch of auditing questions. If you're a computer security geek, you pretty much just have to read an introduction to auditing textbook (or their study guides) to pass. The biggest pain in the rear is the fact that they make you send them a verification of your degree. What a pain in the butt.
CISSP's exam is about a 1.5 hour exam squeezed into six hours. The exam passing threshhold is too low, at the moment, and every idiot can pass. My company paid for everyone's CISSP certification, and I only know 1 of ~30 people who've taken it who failed. If you go through the ISC^2 review, you can nail the test. Having said that, it's a great common body of knowledge test. Like CISA, there's a lot of theory. Unlike CISA, most of it actually means something relevant. Just because it's not particularly selective at this point doesn't mean that it's worthless--just don't expect it to rocket your career from "nowhere" to "internationally sought after."
SANS certs (I have GCIH and GSEC) are cool, techie certs, but the organization is badly in the throes of upsizing. If you get a SANS certification, expect to get long, rambling emails without clear "so what?" messages. The great thing--practical exercises--about SANS certs also makes them very difficult to scale well. SANS also can't figure out how to invoice me for recertification, so I think I'm going to be letting both my SANS certs expire. At some point, you reach an experience hump where certs are just as valuable expired as they are current, and I've recently let a few major certs (including my MCSE) lapse.
Don't believe the SANS propaganda about salary premiums. They've cherry picked their first folks, including me, so we kick butt on salaries. The certs didn't give us good salaries, we work for good companies that invest in overpriced training, so yeah, we have good salaries. Not to mention the fact that those of us who were SANS early adopters were already rockin' along in the security field.
CISA and CISSP have been around longer. Get them both, they're well recognized and easy to get, if not as cheap as a CCNA or MCP. If you want to be a techie specialist in one security area, get the appropriate SANS cert. If you just want to get into security management--and believe me, there are plenty of jobs for that--don't bother with SANS.
What non-Microsoft certifications are worthwhile? Specifically, I was considering going for Sun's Java certification - would I be wasting my time?
Why am I not surprised that I would read the threads on this article and see the CCNA get reamed by every poster who has an opinion?
Perhaps I'm biased, having just wrapped up my CCNA and CCDA tests, but I'll say it anyway; those were *difficult* exams. Specifically, the CCNA had some nifty twists to it. The new CCNA 2.0 exam (640-607) just came out last Tuesday. I can bet you that if you hold a current CCNA or CCNP and walk into 640-607 cold, you will flunk it.
I have ten years experience in telco and networking, with five years in cisco environments. My most recent projects involved working specifically with cisco solutions (a redundant network architecture for an on-line university ASP, and a global network buildout for a company in pre- to post-IPO transition, respectively). Raw "hands on" knowledge would not have gotten me through 640-607.
I had taken the prep for 640-507 a while back, and indeed that one seemed pretty light. -607 is set up as a "weed out" test, it would seem. I ended up doing very well on it, but I needed all but 5 minutes of the time given to finish it.
The CCDA, I think, tests you on how well you read, take notes, and pay attention. Short of the emphasis on CiscoFusion, it's actually a fairly generic "can you design a network that provides a proper business solution for the client" test. The concepts can be applied anywhere. Maybe that's why I'm seeing job reqs place more emphasis on having the CCDA in addition to the CCNA or CCNP - it's a good indicator of solid grounding in vendor-independent network design concepts.
Anyway, I plan on moving to the CCNP/CCDP level fairly soon, as I now have the pre-reqs in place. There really isn't any reason not to straddle both disciplines up to that point - getting the design side along with the tech side only involves an extra exam. Don't plan to pass the CCDA if you prep for the CCNA alone, though - the exams are different enough to trip most people up.
That aside, the only other certs I have are the Legato LCE, and some "Master Level" Brainbench certs (which I see people slamming as well - whatever, I'm proud of my scores). Throw in a couple of tech degrees (Comp. Sci. and Aero Engineering w/ my EIT/FE exam passed), and I think it's all pretty well rounded.
Common! All they have is Microsoft, Cisco and the CompTIA certifications listed? Novell is used in many large companies, I wouldn't count them out yet. Thats a pretty crapy survey if you ask me.
I've noticed a kind of snobbery from experienced sys admins about the value of computer certifications.
I was talking to a head sys admin dealing with MS machines. She said that MSCE's are worthless and are no substitute for experience.
My response, "Duh!!!!" Of course experience is preferable to passing some test. Here are some arguments in favor of being certified:
1)it represents an attempt to learn an organized body of skills. What sys admins don't tell you is that they don't learn a skill until there's a major problem (and then they HAVE to learn about it). Certifications teach basic concepts and familiarizes you with commands and functions; it doesn't teach an algorithm for problem solving. That's where the experience comes in. The knowledge of a certified but clueless individual is a little about a lot of different areas. With a no certification sys admin, you're more likely to find someone who knows only about the problems he has fixed recently.
The second fallacy is that people with experience are more qualified than people with only a certification. Actually this statement is irrelevant. Ask yourself: if you had to choose between two candidates with identical experience, but only the first had a certification, which of the two candidates would you hire?
The problem with sys admin jobs is it's often next to impossible to get the experience in these fields without having hands on knowledge in the first place. For an unemployed individual, it is very difficult to know how to administer an Outlook server or Windows 2000 Server without having his or her own personal license. Certifications are a midway point towards demonstrating competence.
Certifications may not say much, but they at least mean the individual knows the terminology and basic concepts and has some familiarity with how things are supposed to work. That may not be much, but at least this person would be in a better position to pick up the more sophisticated skills more easily on the job.
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
What about CNA, CNE or any of the other various Novell certifications?
Have these idiots been living under an MS-rock for the past 10 years?
-- Jim
Is getting Java certfied (Programmer/Developer/Architect) any good at all? Would it be useful to someone who does not have a university degree in some computer-related subject?
This topic provoked my 1st post to /.
I live in England UK and for unemployed people they have this training scheme to get people back to work.
The sad thing is - the scheme is Microsoft based, the private training centre also does Cisco, A+ and maybe some others, but we cant do that without paying for them, and im not currently in a position to do so. (Maybe i should be grateful?)
I've been using computers for about 15 years now, and Windows for about 10 years, and to be honest those ten years of Windows misery has made me hate Microsoft, hence i switched to GNU/Linux.
I'm a skilled mechanical engineer and have done my apprenticeship, but got made redundant and since been unable to find any work in that area.
I dont know everything about computers, but what gets me is the fact that i have to do all this crap the Microsuck way and not learning any real standards, and "learning" stuff that i did years ago at home messing around.
Plus, i bet MS are getting a fat cheque for every person on this scheme.
Microsoft Certified Reboot Technician
I am an Engineering Manager at "big Name" technology company. We do product development and I can't speak for the IS department. If a resume ends up on my desk that includes any certs I tend to round file it. Given the number of resumes that HR gets for any opening I have to cut through the chaf.
If you have so much free time that you bother with certs then you are not a real engineer. I am interested in real technical experance and abilities. I am also interested in broader skills and abilites such as ability to think, plan, understand the ethic of the profession, understand business implications of engineering decisions, write and work with other people. A degree is important, and the broader the education the better. I've seen a MSEE from MIT wash out of his first job because he could not calibrate a power supply with a scope (no pratical experance) and I've seen a number of gifted code slingers wash out because they lack people, organizatinal and/or business skills. All else beign equal, I tend to hire a physics, engineering math grad over a CS grad for software tasks because they tend have broader experance and more rounded educations.
If you want to be a professional you have to pay your dues and get an education, gain experance (technical, prefessional and life) and then act with a greater level of responsability than just a certified *tool*
-s