Slashdot Mirror
Why Offshore When Canada's Next Door?
Roblimo writes "A study by accounting and consulting giant PriceWaterhouseCoopers claims Canada could lose up to 75,000 IT jobs by 2010 to offshore outsourcing, but could also *gain* 165,000 jobs through U.S. outsourcing contracts. The trick is, according to this story at IT Manager's Journal, that while Indian, Chinese, and Russian programmers may cost 80% less than U.S. programmers, the time zone, language, legal, and other problems involved with sending work half way around the world can eat up much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
I work for MSN - MSN which is not offered in Canada, but most of the tech support sites (or so it seems) are located here in Canada.
I am not willing to move north to get a job that pays 40% less than what is available here. I'd rather work outside my field.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
To make 40% less?
:-)
The beer-hockey sounds interesting, though.
Okay, type su, eh?
% sua
sua: Command not found
Are costs of living about 40% less as well?
"For years, I struggled with reality... but I'm happy to say I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd
I live in Denver and will work for 40% less than average. And I don't say "eh?" all the time.
-Peter
I work in the US about 5 hours from the Canadian border and I get paid about 40% less than the average US programmer.
But that's only half as cheap!
Oh, woo... you get our IT jobs. Take them. Maybe now the peabrained yokels that fill those jobs here in the US will need to actually LEARN something and perform a REAL job function.
canada does not have an outsourcing industry set up let alone the companies to outsoruce to. remember that sales and marketing is required as well as a cheap pool of labour. indian companies agressively market services in the US, while being able to retain a large pool of engineers on the bench (since labour is cheap).
this alone make the difference. in canada you would have to pay engineers $40 CDN an hour while in india is $4 CDN or equivalent. this allows more engineers to sit on the bench, allowing faster scale up.
Although our legal system is "similar", we lack equivalents to silly little things like the DMCA and the Patriot Act.
On the other hand, we're responsible for Celine Dion. On behalf of all Canadians, I apologize profusely.
That is all...
Believe me, if I started murdering people, there would be none of you left.
As a Canadian in the IT industry, I'd be glad to see more jobs coming here, definitely. There really is very little difference between Americans and Canadians, besides cultural and political systems. None of that plays into how you sound over the phone, or how well you code.
Canada really is the ideal place for US companies to outsource. If you have a Roadrunner cable modem and have ever called tech support, chances are you've been talking to someone at a local Ottawa firm called Convergys. I bet you never knew it, either.
occultae nullus est respectus musicae - originally a Greek proverb
It seems that the whole "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" has been outsourced to Canada. While we fight our war on drugs, Canada has sane drug laws. While we meddle in the affairs of every nation on Earth, Canada just keeps on making beer.
Beer == Good.
So, bring it on. Outsource me to Canada. I'll move there, what with their reasonable immigration policies, and shack up with a burly lumberjack babe and start my life anew.
Please bid on this Karmann Ghia! Please pleas
Outsourcing to Canada has been going on for a while, mostly because of Canada's trusted status in matters of security. Even the evil Haliburton corporations big clusters are now living happily in Toronto along with dozens of others. I should know - I installed them - (and my karma aches for it)
Everyone talks about first-time unemployment claims, but very few take the time to track what happens to the unemployed over time. Ditto for outsourcing projects. Most of the ones i've heard of or been involved with were ultimately cancelled due to incongruent labor laws, time differences, language barriers, quality control issues, et al.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
<obligatory British joke> ;)
So they pronouce English slightly better then?
</obligatory British joke>
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
wow, I can't wait until I get out of school and get paid 40% less than a person 2 hours south of me. sweet.
...no two people are not on fire.
Why not outsource to me in West Virginia...? I work cheaper than all of them combined. There are plenty of people in the USA who will work for less - it's better than no work at all.
That depends. If cost of living is equivalent, or better, then I wouldn't mind it at all. If a house costs 85,000 instead of 220,000 (standard here in AZ), then I'd take that cut in pay.
This is why people are leaving California. Cost of Living. They may make 100,000 a year, but have to pay 450,000 for a 1 bedroom 1 bath 'house'- with no yard or garage.
A, ay!, B, ay!, C, ay!, D, ay! . . .
Good Idea, but still won't help US programmers!
"Where all men think alike, no one thinks very much." -Walter Lippmann
Is to have Canada Annex the United States- they're obviously doing SOMETHING right with their 40% pay cuts (I took more than that to start working again after being laid off), lower value money supply, and socialized medicine (Heck, my PARENTS could afford a 40% pay cut right now if they could get under socialized medicine- medical insurance is 60% of their current cost of living).
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Enjoy wearing that paper hat.
...and realise that US $100 is about CA $132. (As of this morning.)
So if you have some money saved, a 40% "reduction" in pay (is that 40% factoring the exchange rate?) isn't really all that terrible, especially since the cost of living is lower.
But then you have to deal with the cold, which might or might not be a problem depending on whether you like that or not.
Find out about the Lexus Rx400h Hybrid!
works at a tech support cubicle farm, and sometimes has trouble understanding some US English accents, especially the thick ones from the Southern States...
So as far as Canadian / US English language similarities are concerned, your mileage may vary.
Seriously, most of my fellow Canadians where I live are happy to have jobs in IT at all, and guys working in American call centres doing dubious 'IT' work like selling photocopiers make more than the programmers I know.
While it's true that the accents are "nearly the same," there are *some* diffs that will creep in.
BTW, even the McDonald's in Ottawa would offer gravy on their fries. Gravy on McDONALD'S FRIES??? What is this heresy?
Tim
This is very interesting because the population in Canada is not nearly what India/China come close too. For my company, we can have 20 Indian guys trained and if 10 of them leave we still have 10 more. However, if I goto Canada, I can have 4 Canadians to train and if 2 leave, my project will fail due to not enough resources and/or time to train new hires. While the overall cost savings may be equal, the total amount of resources will be much lower.
Aj
GroupShares Inc. - A Free and Interactive Stock Trading Community
-------
artlu.net
So, for 40% less than what I'm currently making, I could live in a nation that gives a crap about hockey, has a much smaller crime rate, has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss, and a health care system available to all its citizens?
Where can I sign up? Really.
And India has spicy food. I know which one I prefer.
Good grief,
I was pulling down $80K Canadian last year doing joe-job programming. What do my US counterparts make?
It's aboot time people recognized this. Ootsourcing is better done in Canada. At least you can understand what people are talking aboot.
I'm not sure that we can trust the Canadians yet. I'm still recovering from Brian Adams.
Cause everyone wants a free Xbox360
... You guys have no limit for your evil. Can I move to Canada?
Talk to all the Canadians who pay for American Blue Cross.
I've lived in a socialist country (Scotland), and the medical system was crap. I knew a guy with an ingrown toenail, who even played minor league soccer, who had to wait 3 _YEARS_ for an operation, because people with more serious issues kept getting bumped ahead of him.
Fuck that.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
Before any of you go packing your bags for Canada, just stop and think:
sure, you'll have a job; and sure you'll be working out of your own apartment instead of driving 2.5 hours to a cubicle somewhere; and sure you'll probably earn more on the whole than any of your other Canadian friends...
But really, half your income goes to the government, and what you're left with doesn't go as far, cause an iPod costs six hundred bloody dollars here, and... and... you have to say "bloody" in casual conversation... and "eh", sometimes, too... and...
Please don't come here! I can't take any more competition!
The world's only surviving livewriter.
From L.A. But, I'm Canadian and just came down to L.A. to make some American money.
I'm part of what Canada calls the "Brain Drain" where large numbers of highly (yet cheaply) educated Canadians rush to the States after graduating. The U.S. (California in particular) provided an opportunity to make a lot of money. My company stopped hiring Canadians (and actually anyone out-of-state) soon after I started, to cut out relocation costs.
I've been saying that companies should out-source to Canada ever since this out-sourcing thing became a big deal. Now that the tide is turning, I wonder what they will rename the "Brain Drain" to!?
China, India, Russia - all moody nuclear powers - need to be kept happy - give 'em jobs Canada - Ice hockey, molson beer... - hell, idiots smile all the time anyway
Shh. We've already begun negotiations to acquire Wisconsin - We require more cheese for our poutine. And they sound like us doncha know. Eh?
And since the entire country migrates en masse in the winter, Florida also makes sense. We have nice conservation plans for the Everglades.
No, reelly I don't!
On two different occasions, several months apart, I had to call Xerox for some assistance configuring one of their multi-purpose machines. In both cases I happened to get the same guy. He was working from Nova Scotia (I believe).
He had just the barest hint of a 'Canadian' accent and it only occured on certain words. Had I not asked where he was while we were waiting for the machine to reboot I wouldn't have known he wasn't in the US.
We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Now Canada has to come in and screw everything up. I have friends in Canada. I ski in Canada. Hell, I like Canada. Who should I hate now? Thank God for mindless, faceless corporations.
As a point of interest, my company tranferred me to London, England for 2 years. Overnight my salary more than doubled, but my costs more than tripled. I've since moved back and despite the large paycut from returning to a Canadian salary, it works out better for me in the end due to cost of living differences.
Mercer human resources has a chartoutlining cost-of-living differences in the world. Ottawa - my current home - is almost exactly 40% cheaper than New York. Canada's most expensive city (Toronto) is only slightly higher than the US's lowest city (Pittsburgh).
Just kidding, of course I lose my job.
Seriously though, I'm a young programmer, I've only been working in industry for a little under two years, and just recently I've had my first experience with outsourcing.
The company that I work for decided to outsource a VB app to india. The labor costs were, as one would expect, quite low. Outsourcing is going to have it's share of sucesses and failures and I witnessed a major faliure. Over the 8 months that the application was developed, deadlines were repeatedly missed, and the application is in one word, terrible.
My boss was staying up until the wee hours of the morning in order to talk to the indian company about the project and according to him, the language barrier was barely tolerable.
Right now my full time occupation is re-writing whole modules and forms so that the application (an arcGIS program) actually does what it was intended to do. Will shipping jobs to Canada instead alleviate a few of these problems? Yea I guess so, but like I said "Don't I still lose my job?"*
*I'm not actually worried about losing my job
...You insensitive clod!
Indian programmers cost 1/4th the amount typically paid for an American programmer. A 4:1 bang-per-buck ratio.
What outsourcing firms wont tell you is that you're also buying into an average 6:1 loss in productivity. American coders are better educated, and have more experience -- This results in _better_ quality code that's produced _faster_ than their Indian counterparts.
Sure, you're saving your company money, but you're also taking an enormous hit in productivity. Your offshore project is putt-putting along at 15 MPH when the rest of the industry is doing the equivalent of 10 over in a 65 MPH highway. By the time your product hits the street, your competitors are already dominating the market AND working on their next release.
Something to think about.
Canadians don't work for $0.05 a day.
---
IMHO, of course.
May the SOURCE be with you.
there go my plans to move to canada, eh?
I'm an american who HAS moved north up to Montreal to program (games for that matter), and cost of living in the city here are less than where I was in NY (Poughkeepsie), and if I were to move just 30 min outside of Montreal, cost of living would drop more than 40% less than where I was in NY, probably in the order of 60-80% less.
For example, a typical, 2500-3000 sq ft house around Poughkeepsie (Hopewell Jct to be specific) went for about 300-800k USD. A friend of mine bought a 2500 sq ft (ranch) house 15 min drive from down town Montreal for 140k CAD, with a pool and a very nice neighbourhood.
140k CAD is aprox 100k USD(at about 70 cents to the canadian dollar). So by this rough (I am sure prices in Hopewell have soared even higher), at worst the price is 66% less, and at best upwards of 88% less than the US counter part in that area.
Is it worth it? Thats for you to decide. I know I have more disposable income, even when converted to USD.
I do have the added benefit of being a dual citizen, but that is a minor issue. As long as you have a degree and a letter from a company stating you have a standing job offer in Canada, it's a matter of going to the border patrol office and they will do a little paper work (from what I have been told, less than a hour) and you are all set.
I read a survey which stated that there would be a 50% loss of productive working time as many managers would burst out laughing when their Canadian counterpart said the word "about". This causes too much "down time" in the workplace.
Too many developers let their skills languish over time.
Too many developers focus only on their computer skills and fail to keep up with business trends in their sector - or ignore any aspect of business altogether and remain pure developers.
Too many developers develop crappy code.
Probably the same thing as the previous point.
As the orinigator of this discussion is indicating, time-zone sensitive work is more safe than other types of employment. Also native language work requirements can be a major asset.
Lost your job to outsourcing? Why not
"Blame Canada!"? After all,
"Theytookurjobs!"
The US doesn't want to invade Canada, they don't need the headache. Maybe if we ditch Quebec they might consider it.
By almost every major metric, the Canadian standard of living is currently higher than the USA, and has been for a number of years.
speak English with nearly American accents
This quip really made my day. Now I know that accents vary over North America, but the idea that the "Canadian" accent is distinctly different from an "American" accent is really laughable.
Compare a New England accent to a Southern accent to a Maritime, to an Ottawa valley, to who knows what other region. Accents vary by much greater degrees within the two countries than they do between them. Or do most Americans feel like Canadians all talk the same, and that is somehow different from all Americans? I'd love to hear opinions on this... Cue South Park quotes now...
Of course, getting back home would be another story entirely, as there'd be more than a millimetre of snow on the roads, you'd all go careening off into the pine trees and die in horrible crashes.
IT jobs? You're just answering the damn telephone from a script. This is the job people on welfware or students do. The real IT jobs will be going to india anyways
did you forget to take your meds?
I for one welcome our new Canadian overlords!
Half of them think we are Evil
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Canada has much lower cost of living, we have a wicked health care system compared to the US, but Canada does have its high priced areas in Toronto and Vancouver, they have high costs of living compared to other major cities in Canada. GO FLAMES GO :p
I'd expect Canada would have some worker-friendly laws about piss testing employees. Given the availability of BC bud, I'd hope so at least.
At least we can find ourselves on a map! :)
Listen, I understand that being forced to train your outsourced replacement or you get fired anyways is completely unfair and cruel behavior by the big corp's. But outsourcing isn't entirely evil. For one thing, it means that there is *much* cheaper labor out there ready and willing to be the "code monkey's" who can slop together some PeopleSoft, C/C++, and SQL code to keep the big business CRM tool running. And if companies in the US are so willing to look half-way round the world to get such jobs done, it means there's more relevant, interesting work to go around for those in the US.
Not to mention the fact that freeing up millions of dollars the company is currently spending to invest elsewhere can only be good in the long run. Yes, I know your job might be eliminated in the short term, but that doesn't mean you can't get back out there and learn new skills or take on a completely different job. No one ever said that living in America was a free ride. We've all gotta work hard to make our living here. More money being pumped back into our economy due to outsourcing will, IMO, continue to raise stock prices, make the rich richer who will in turn spend their money on more frivolous products, which drives business further ahead. Besides, when the mega-rich have more 'stuff' they need more people to upkeep it, which is a good place for the poor and unemployed to get themselves back on their feet in the short-term so that they aren't wasting their earning potential in the long-term.
If I make 40% less living in Canada, then I should be moving to the US... Anyone wanna hire an experienced Web Software developer? I could certainly use the extra 40%!
We can really blame canada.
... while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers. Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
I think it might be time to move South!
just = (My)Opinion.toCents();
DEY DOOK ER DERRRRSSSSSS
- Hi I'm Linus Torvalds and I pronounce Linux, Lih-nix..
I work for the Alberta Government and work fairly closely with the Public Affairs Bureau. They're keeping it rather quiet right now (why I posted anonymously), but they're getting ready to announce a Dell call centre is coming to Edmonton.
Apparently the early numbers are 500 staff, but set to grow to 1,500 in three years.
Our city was fighting against Boise, Idaho and won.
the article talks about IT offshoring, then jumps track at the end to talk about 40% salary for programmers.
something be slightly askew
Companies do NOT care if you have talk to a guy speaking Spanglish, Engrish, or Hinduish - They only care about saving money and doing things for LESS.
COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it. From their past track record companies WILL DO whatever they can GET AWAY WITH - until we unite and make a law about it.
SO GET OUT THERE and crack some skulls!
Ave Molech Setting
Bring it on. We will repel you with vast arsenals of Rush albums, blaring at you at great volume. Albums of mass destruction so to speak.
And if that doesn't work we'll promise to keep Celine Dion in Los Vegas.
No, reelly I don't!
Well, that's all fine and dandy, I suppose...but how am I going to dodge the draft for THAT war?
Sneak into Mexico?
Your morgage isn't tax deductable here. Not to mention there is SO much corruption and waste in government only like 20% of our 50% tax makes it anywere
And what about broken english with an american accent so? *grins*
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
I have to believe for most the "Fargo" accent is easier to understand than an Indian one.
yeah... but your expenses/cost of living would go up 60% (if i LA or NY)
--
Time is on my side
It's past time to roll tanks into Canada
;o)
Yeah...Thinking about it as a Canadian, I guess I can see how US Intelligence could see our beer and hockey sticks as a potential WMD threat, eh?
That is, if you buy anything. I renember one time I was in canada and I bought a pack of chewing gum - thinking wow! what a great price. Then I brought it to the register and they tallied up the tax and I was nearly floored.
:)
:)
There are some other funny things about Canada too, trying to find a restruant in torranto that served lemmonade was a lost cause, and one time I went to McDonnalds and they asked me if I wanted viniger with my fries - when I gestured WTF, the lady behind the couter said - "you must be an American"
When I wnet thru customs, I made the mistake of saying I was there for work. I went thru this long and tedious procedure to prove to them that I wasn't going to steal Canadian jobs. I think I slipped past all the BS, because they didn't know what SCO Unix was. Yes I know, I'm so ashamed, thank God for Linux. (I told by boss back in 95 that SCO scuked and Linux was going to take over, they laughed and mocked me out of the company, well look now who'se laughing!
Anyhow, if you hate American taxes and don't like the honesty-level in American politics, I would say you will hate Canada. If they're not a problem to you and you want free medical care at every one elses expense, then you probably won't find it so bad.
If I moved, I could make a lot more, but I'm also currently living in a small town. So if you wanted to compare:
If I moved to a larger city, rent could probably be around $600-800+ for about the same accomodations as I have now, gas would be up a bit, car insurance insane... but I'd also be expecting to make a fair bit more so it would probably still put me ahead.
Yes and no. The lifestyle in Toronto is superior to that of India. They have baseball, basketball and everything else is nearly identical to a Boston for example. More cultural than most US cities I have traveled to actually. What am I saying Toronto IS better than Boston too?!
"Looks like I'll be moving up north" or
"Where do I sign up?"
Well, you can Sign up here
Thats the Citizenship and Immigration Canada website, with all the forms and whatnot for admission to the country. Enjoy!
Unix is mysterious, and ancient, and strong. It's made of cast iron and the bones of heroic programmers of old -
There are huge call centers here that are devoted to providing tech support for American companies, there is one in Northern Alberta that is a 3000 seat call center, they do tech support for companies like HP, earthlink, and many others, watch out, next time you call tech support you might actually get someone that is friendly!!
Doh! My ObSouthPark faux-markers got clipped; apparently not faux enough. I knew the preview looked weird somehow...
So, when a Canadian programmer using Hungarian notation declares a char array variable called, say, "Buffer", how's it declared?
sZedBuffer
???
I chip in CAD$ 10...
I hadn't the slightest objection to his spending his time planning massacres for the bourgeoisie... (P.G. Wodehouse)
Now companies can fuck their employees over with a minimum of work and stress to the company executives!
As a Canadian, I think it is hilarious that the article claims that we have "nearly American accents". There is more variety within either country than there are differences between them when it comes to how their residents speak. What exactly is this "American accent" that we so nearly mimic? A southern drawl? A Brooklyn accent? Perhaps something milder from the midwest?
I challenge the average Slashdot reader to grab a life-long resident of Alberta and Montana at random and decide who is who based not on their word choice or beliefs, but strictly their accent.
Hmmmm, outsourcing to Canada eh? Maybe that's why I haven't had trouble finding work through the dot.bomb. :)
:)
Seriously though, you guys/gals must be making a butt load of money down there. I thought I was pretty comfortable with what I was making. I can easily survive in a pretty expensive city (relative to Canada) on what I make now. I live in Toronto. If my salary is 40% lower than yours then either you live in a really expensive city (New York? The Bay area?) or you guyz are overpaid
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
Do you suggest all southern accents sound alike? Can you not hear the difference between Tennessee and Mississippi accents? Yes, to me all Canadian accents sound similar. Maybe because I only hear tourists, and fake canadian accents in the movies.
word.
Canada has a big beaver problem:7 6
www.visit4info.com/details.cfm?adid=145
The down side, of course, is more tax. And the CBC.
We Canadian programmers are all moving south to get paid 40% more!
All we have to do is put up with the Patriot Act, DMCA, George Bush, and..
Wait? Why did I want to take that programming job in the States, again?
I am the maverick of Slashdot
"much of the labor savings, while Canadian programmers are nearby, speak English with nearly American accents,"
Speak English? Obviously you've never met a programmer in Toronto. And it's a sin to speak any other language except Quebecois in Quebec.
Flamebait?! SOMEbody with their finger on the mod button can't take a joke.
There's an ironic aspect to this fear of outsourcing. The U.S. happens to benefit a lot when consumers in foreign countries outsource their wants and needs to American companies. Take the example of "copyrighted" products such as software, motion pictures, and sound recordings. The U.S. exports $90 billion US worth of these items each year. Canada also exports billions of dollars in cultural products each year. According to the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Canada's cultural industries export the equivalent of $5 billion Cdn each year. These cultural industries account for as many as 600,000 jobs.
Subzerorz
More Articles
Yes, but I like listening to a French accent more than a Hindi one, especially when a woman is doing it. It sounds cooler to my ears.
My wife has family all over Canada, and I can tell you that from their experiences, the healthcare system isn't all that great. While everyone has coverage, it can be pretty tough to get in to see a doctor. Things take longer because their system is swamped. And I remember something about how the banking industry isn't that good up there, so you don't get decent interest rates. Or something like that, I can't remember. I just meant to say that it is no "wonderland", they do have their own issues.
But damn, are they polite up there. We went there on our honeymoon, took a 2 day tour on the Rocky Mountaineer. When we were pulling out of the station in Vancouver, there was graffiti sprayed on a nearby overpass. What did it say?
"Welcome to Vancouver".
Cracked my ass UP. Victoria was absolutely beautiful, I would move there in a second if I thought I could find a job.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
They I guess it's not worth my while to learn how to program. Dang I just bought all those books on Python.
Hey can I make say 20% less if I'm from B.C. but live in Arizona?
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
No, don't move up north. We have the same problem here as the United States does. Too many programmers not enough jobs. That's why it's so damn cheap.
You'll find it even harder to find a job then we do being a foreigner without a permanent visa.
FYI, the National Service Act is NOT the draft. It's obligatory 2 years of national service for both men & women. I don't know what Hollings was smoking when he came up with this one, but then he was never much for rational thought anyway...
The National Service Act is currently under revue for comment by the pentagon where the military will keep it until Hollings is no longer elected or the USA is invaded. The pentagon doesn't want to antagonize him by killing his brainchild, but they're also smart enough to avoid antagonizing everyone under 30...
I used to work for RR, and the majority of thier tech support is dont in canada. They have very large call centers there, however some people obviously are not american when you speak with them.
:)
We were listening to one call, and the lady is like, are you from canada? Tech says, did my accent give it away? She replies with, I dont know Eh?
You had to hear it, one of the funniest things ive heard on the phone
If you want to advocate programmers moving into Canada to get jobs that pay 40% less because of all the alleged cultural similarities between the USA and Canada, why not instead just advocate American programmers staying where they are and just asking for 40% less money?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Tell me about it. I can't believe the rest of Canada was actually against Quebec's seccession. I mean, I admit I'd miss Massachusetts a little if it went away, but... time heals all wounds, as they say, and I'm sure I could get a passport to visit every once in a while. It'd be a small price to pay not to have to endure any more Kennedys. I expect a third of America would say the same about Texas and a certain one of its favorite sons (the other third would be frantically getting votes for sending California floating gently into the Pacific sunset.)
"3)Living in NYC has it's own advantages. Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums, never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile, can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home, can see world class plays, theater, etc. etc. etc. Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style. It might be OK for people that don;t care about this kind of stuff, but not for me."
Wow, what's Tango Dancing? Museums? What the hell are plays?
This NYC place seems pretty darned fancy-looking! I should save up my 40% weaker Canadian dollars, sell my moose lodge, canoe down there, and experience what can only conceivably be a DREAM CITY IN THE **KING CLOUDS, YOU SELF-INFATUATED NY MORON.
You think freaking Tango lessons set NYC apart from the world? If *that's* your basis for judgement, you'd do us all a favour and stay put, friend.
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
Or to pretty much anywhere in America besides the People's State of California.
I almost headed out to Silicon Valley during the boom, but after considering that state taxes are literally double what they are here in Michigan, the cost of housing is 2+ times as much, traffic is worse, people expect you to work way longer hours, and federal taxes are going to bite down hard on that extra marginal income, I figured: what's the point?
Plus I never did get the hang of Spanish...
Oh yeah, the weather. Well, there are a lot of states that have better weather than Michigan, so there.
I'm a hiring manager for a small software company in Atlanta, Georgia. We are having a *lot* of trouble finding good Java/J2EE and Flash developers. Why move to Canada when you can get a good paying job here in the US!
e t/getJobs
Check out these positions:
http://www.ajug.org/ajugcontext/servl
Please send resumes to:
hr@roundboxmedia.com
People keep complaining that there are no jobs in the US. We can't seem to find people to hire!
If you have any questions then please get in touch.
http://www.roundboxmedia.com
No.
Man, do we need jobs here... or perhaps jobs for new grads.
ogg
Black cat, searing pain, flames...? I must be in Heaven! - Homer Simpson
Not to mention having to deal with a harsher winter in most of Canada...
I live in Montreal, Quebec. Half the population in Montreal speaks English as well as any other Canadian. We have a call center here in Montreal. We answer in five languages. English, French, Chinese, Japanese and Arab. The same call center located in Toronto answers in English only. Agents in Toronto even get a salary bonus if they can answer in something else. Beleive me, English speaking people have a hard time learning any other language. That's because English is a pretty simple language. As soon as a little complexity is invloved, they generally abandon saying how useless it is to speak anything besides English. Three major cities are affected by offshoring in Canada: Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Don't worry, our French accent is nothing compared to France! The fact that Quebec is next to America gives us the ability to speak English better than French people in France.
(Posting Anonymously for obvious reasons ...)
...
Oh, the irony
I am in Canada, working in the subsidiary of a US Multinational provider of technology products.
Corporate headquarters in the USA decided that they want to outsource ALL software development, and IT infrastructure to India, whether they are based in the USA on in Canada.
We have been in a death march project porting an application from UNIX to Windows (many reasons here, including obsolete UNIX flavor, cheaper commodity hardware, AND the outsourcing company does not do UNIX, but only Windows).
The project has been on for 2 years now, and still going. The outsourcing company is struggling with high attrition in their staff, and customer change requests coming in all the time.
The result is that we will have no job a year or so from now, once the Indian company can get on its feet.
Management here have been telling lies and saying that we will do new things once we give the "old products" to India, but no "new thing" showed up. They need us to ensure that "knowledge transfer" happens to the guys in India.
If there are US companies outsourcing here, I would like to get a piece of that, since I will be laid off soon.
What a nonsense! These are the same Indian, Chinese and Russian programmers. The only difference is that they live in Canada and cost more.
As an emplyer you have to demonstrate that you have a specific need to hire someone from out of the country. Barring that as an immigrant you can short circuit the process by depositing a large sum of money in a Canadian bank. I know the Canucks here will scream about that but that's largely the case. Hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong came over that way.
Anyway it has to make sense from the employees perspective. As others have noted here there wages are less and the taxes are more. It might not be in their economic self interest to do that. Perhaps, if the alternative is not working but again, then you have to demonstrate that you are in fact employable in Canada and someone has a job for you.
There are lots of countries that speak English if that's your concern: South Africa, India, Singapore, Taiwan, Jordan and South Korea for the most part. I'd mention Israel too but I'm sure that would attract the usual crazies to say crazy things.
Tax rates are tiered in Canada. For someone making $50,000 Canadian a year, their yearly tax would be about $12,000--this includes fed + prov + Canada Pension Plan + tax credits.
The approximate tax rates are (fed+prov combined):
Up to 35,000: ~22%
Up to ~70,000: ~31%
Over 70,000: ~38%
But we also receive tax credits, and if you contribute $ to your retirement savings plan you can greatly reduce the amount of tax paid.
Overall I pay about 26% tax on my yearly income. Nowhere near 50%!
So where are the beaver jokes? You know, the furry type.
That's not true at all. The only section of Canada that is dominated by French is Quebec (85%) and they don't even want to be a part of Canada... That's a whole other issue though. In fact most provinces have less than 5% French speaking citizens. Especially out west, we have less than 2% french speaking citizens. Your statement is like me saying that everyone in the US speaks with a spanish accent.
Here's some census in fo for you.
1996 Census info on Language
WURD!!
Canada's opportunity cost is much higher than that of India, China, Russia, Thailand, etc. Hence another country like India would be more economical to outsource to. Until India's economy grows and then the OC is too high and the work is moved to another country.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Michael Moore's Canadian Bacon provides a hilarious contrast between U.S. and Canadian cliches. Starring Alan Alda and John Candy.
It makes me wanna cry.....or hurt someone
nice
not nice
bash
kill
It seems Mexicans could be as cheap as Indians and they are closer, many of them speak English and they are in same time zone?
As an American professional software engineer. I'm glad to see that stories encouraging outsourcing of American software jobs are now appearing on /. It means that the readership of /. is growing. Such fine managerial values are at the core of the technical acumen that I have come to expect from the /. readership.
/snicker
It also means that I should probably stop posting, since my boss might be reading.
Toodles.
Not outsource US IT to Canada? They outsourced hockey to the US decades ago....
Get off my lawn.
The solution: Free Quebec!
(Although technically I suppose it's an infinite % more, since the closest thing to French I see around here is the occasional distance in kM...)
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
Celine Dion is our weapon of mass destruction!
Heck, if we ever attack a country, she's on the front line singing her heart out. After one of her Monster Ballots, we just walk in with our hockey sticks and Zambonies and clean up the enemies. We don't need fancy things like short range tactical missles, or ugh.. tanks, guns, ammunition.
Actually, on a serious note, I like it that we don't spend anything on military. In the simpson's they used the joke (excuse me if I get this wrong):
Scorpio: "What country do you like the least, Italy or France"
Homer: "France"
Scorpio: "No one ever says Italy"
Then Scorpio blows up France. Well I like it that to the rest of the world Canada = Italy. The U.S. = France.
I can just imagine terrorist meeting... "Guys what country do you like the least? Canada or the US?"
-asoap
Treat me like a marketing stat, and I'll treat your movie like a series of ones and zeros
U.S. companies will outsource to the farting alien lifeforms found on Mars and slashdot signatures will say Dey tuk ouhr gobz!!!!!
"There is only a one in six billion chance that you actually exist"
Tim Horton's, Coffee Crisp and Peameal Bacon.
As a developer who's been in IT since the early 90's, I've noticed that as the number of Indian and Chinese managers grew, so did the outsourcing of work to these countries. In my opinion, these managers sold the idea of outsourcing to these countries to the upper management and have a lot of input on where the outsourcing will go. There are not as many Canadians, Mexicans, Central Americans, etc in management, so there's not so much outsourcing to these countries.
Try watching hockey sometime. After a while of listening to the players, coaches, and commentators I -- an American -- have gotten a fairly good idea of who's from where but only in a really broad sense.
Newfies and Quebeqois stand out pretty severely. I can almost tell the difference between someone from say, Toronto and Saskatchewan but sometimes get it wrong.
Considering how broad the country is, there doesn't seem to be a really strong difference in regional accents though. Nothing like the US.
Get off my lawn.
This whole thing is stupid. Say a New York City or San Francisco company saves money by outsourcing to Canada, a place where a housing isn't $400 a square foot and salaries are not inflated. They could probably get very similar savings if they oursourced to WVa or TN and be sung praises as heros for boosting local American economies. On the same note, west coast and east coast companies spending millions on leases for data centers could save millions by moving to America's heartland. Plus they could just leave the windows open in the colder months and reduce their electric bills for cooling. Ok, the last part is a stretch.
'Same speed C but faster'
Could you do me a favor and stop by there and tell them to make better printers without encrypted ink cartridges?
Thanks.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
No jobs here, just SARS, please stay out of Canada... Plus it's really cold, year round, and we don't have electricity in many parts of the country... Yeah... No opportunity here, move along.
Where I live in Illinois, the cost of living is:
And my city is slightly above the national average for cost of living.
We call this nearshore. A few indian companies I know of have nearshore centers in Canada.
Do you make any distinction between work that you do at the beck and call of others, and work that you do for yourself? I ask this because I do make a BIG distinction. I enjoy programming quite a bit, but doing it as a job really reduces what I get out of it, that same goes for music, or any other creative endeavour. So, unlike you, getting paid just enough to eat isn't worth giving up the artistic freedom and control that I have over my work. Having control over my working life is worth more than that to me. It never ceases to amaze me how people make no distinction between programming that they do for themselves, and programming that they do because others tell them to do it.
I also think the reason that you don't make a distinction between programming for someone else, and programming for yourself, on your own time, is because society encourages you not to make a distinction between the two. I literally had a co-worker accuse me of not enjoying programming and not being cut out for it. He couldn't understand that for me, having control over my work is a big part of my enjoyment of it, and if I'm not getting paid enough to give up that control, then I'm miserable because I feel like I'm being ripped off. I don't want to give my work away to people who don't respect it enough to pay it for what it's worth. This of course is the trap that many programmers who desire control over their working lives are in. When they ask for just compensation for giving up that control, they get accused of "not enjoying" their work.
Finally, if you're a programmer, and you're a logical person, you should realize that it's a logical fallacy to place work you do for others and work you do for yourself in the same category. That's why you should get annoyed when someone tries to accuse you of not loving what you do when you complain about salary. You aren't getting paid to program, you are paid to give up control over what you program, and that is worth quite a bit in my opinion.
(Could I telecommute from Cancun/Cuba half the year?)
However, some other things to consider:
cities are cleaner and generally safer
from east to west, beautiful lands and parks
liberal politics (Canada is moving left as the US goes further right) - this may or may not be a pro depending on your views
Some interesting culture, from the English/Irish/Scottish influence of the maritime provinces, to the French in Quebec (their quirks aside), to the Hong Kong/Chinese influence in the west.
Health care system. Yes, has its pros and cons, but you always are covered.
More and varied political parties, 4-5 major parties, and many more smaller fringe ones.
Canadians as a whole are friendlier, more outgoing and generally more laid back
If you like to travel, being Canadian is generally a plus, whereas I hate to say it, being an American isn't
We use metric! ;-p
Canucks can go to Cuba, Yanks can't ;)
Hockey! Hockey! Hockey
Disclaimer: My politics are pretty left, I'm agnostic, hate the religious right (wrong), don't give a f*ck who sleeps with, or who marries who (ain't my business), could care less if people smoke pot, love the outdoors, fun cities, and being around a range of people.
Though I do really enjoy the US overall, social & foreign policy under the Bush admin really doesn't suit me, along with him being in bed with the highly political Christian right who think everyone's business is their own.
So there's my 2 cents
Cheers
Morp -
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
Since you guys let us have Neil Young and Leon Redbone, you needn't feel bad about Celine Dion. All things considered, even she isn't awful enough to counteract those two.
However, IIRC Canada has European-style restrictions on "hate speech", which I'm not too keen on: Once you start banning the expression of ideas that all right thinking people disapprove of, who knows what "all right thinking people" may disapprove of next? To me, that seems just as malignant as atrocities like the DMCA or the Patriot Act.
The US no-tits-on-TV thing is idiotic, certainly, but it's not a ban on tits in general; you can have all the tits you like in a magazine, DVD, or whatever.
I've never yet met anybody who'll admit to posting on Slashdot. So who are all these people?!
We tried outsourcing some services to Canada, but found we had a shrp increase in the number of moose-related outages and employee deaths.
I don't even want to talk about the problems with the Bangalore outfit before that, to this day I still shudder when I read about the upcoming release of Tiger.
YMMV (Your Moose May Vocalize).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Even cheaper and as close as Canada!
No.... corporations did.
Again, this is a case of the small business getting lumped with Big Business. Just like Bush saying Edwards is against small businesses; well, no, he's not. He's against corporations that break the law.
The Political Programmer
Our cultures are so intertwined that Canada's practically an American state.
We watch the same tv and movies, read the same book and magazines, and, judging by the several Canadian responses to this topic, browse the same sites as well...
I for one welcome being your Canadian overlord...
I'm a software developer that works on real time control software, including many American projects. Our last big project was the software for the newly reopened PATH subway line from New Jersey to the World Trade Centre station.
According to a recent U.N. report Canada is the 4th best place to live, above the USA.
Well, thinking about moving North IS the recent trend in election years.
And Canada was also hit very hard by SARS.....esp. Toronto IIRC
To say you would make 40% less is a gross exagoration. From what ive seen, the payscale is pretty much inline to what most of the states is. The amount of money that you take home at the end of the month means squat. Its all about standard of living.
:) ).
:)
As an example, im in London, Ontario, which has a population of about 350K. Im a fairly high level developer, basically one step below IT manager. I pull in about 60K a year. From my understanding, I could go to New York city and basically double my salary, and have a 10% less tax to pay. Ditto, I could go to Toronto, and make about the same almost double what I make now ( more like 40% more ), but really what does that money buy me.
I am in the process of buying a luxury loft, 1,700 square feet in size, for about 150K. From what I understand, the same would cost me about about 400K in Toronto, and probrably well over 1/2 million in either NY or Cali. After, expenses, taxes and all that crap, im probrably left with about 1,500 a month of disposable income. That includes my mortgage, car payment, getting reamed for taxes ( that part aint a myth
As to currency differences, to be honest, I dont really see any. When I go visit our Lansing site in Michigan, I pay basically the same as I would in canada when I eat out, get a hotel, order a beer. It used to be we could cross the border and save a ton of cash on things like gas, smokes, groceries, etc... but now, thats no longer true. Actually, I have a friend whos business consists of buying vehicles in Canada, and driving them up to the States for resale. Gives you a hit at how the exchange rates work
There are plenty of reasons to chose one country over the other... but wage sure isnt one of them. Cost of living/standard of living is the most important thing... wage is... when comparing one location to another... just a useless number.
It wasn't too long ago that a number of highly moderated posts made fun of the union stance that it was unfair to let volunteers do the job they were being paid to do. They were objecting to volunteers stealing their livlihood.
Yet any time it comes up that companies are looking to get cheaper labor for the same work, Slashdot cries foul. It's all fun and games until it happens to you. Companies hire fresh college grads for less, too.
What's the other Slashdot mantra...oh yes "adjust or die." Isn't that what we keep telling businesses like MS and the RIAA? Oh, but this affects YOU so we have to make laws banning companies from utilizing an international work force. Like I said, join a union.
We are now in a global market. Companies for a very long time have been looking to take advantage of it. There are very few companies that don't have people working in foreign countries.
If you don't like it, you need to convince your boss that you are worth your pay and some foreign person can't match your price to value ratio.
People who work in tech fields are just simply not as valuable as they were 20 years ago. We've passed the time when people who could work in the field were few and far between.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
Cost of living in Canada versus 40% pay cuts..
It will depend. If you are coming from California, or a high cost city in a high tax state, then moving to Canada probably makes sense, as standard of living, and taxation (about 50% or more in Canada) will be about the same.
If you are coming from anywhere else in the continental US, where housing costs are more reasonable, and taxes are reasonable (most places except CA and NY), your standard of living is likely to go down moving to Canada, where (relative to income) housing is much more expensive, and costs of many imported goods, cars, fuel..etc, are much higher than in the US relative to the new lower salary you will be making.
On the upside, your kids can go to university cheaply, and the free health care is good (though if you get 'expensive treatment' diseases, you are better off in the US as the treatment is not likely to be (as) available in Canada).
Its very cold in Winter, but there is hockey, and the women are beautiful in Montreal and Quebec!
Background: I am R&D Director for software and consulting firm of 15 people in Canada. I've hired, led, and fired dozens of programmers in the last five years.
If your grammar, spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and style of communication are an indication of what I can expect from domestic sources, I'll stick with my outsourced programming team in Bangalore. Thank you very much. From the contract we have with them, our four programmers each earn enough money in Bangalore to support their families with a very high standard of living.
By "high standard", I mean two of them are now able to pursue their MBAs. They all have at least a B.Sc. already, completed in English no less. I speak to all four on the telephone regularly, and their English is very good and extremely professional. I would rather have any of these folks speak to my clients on the phone than some of the domestic programmers I've hired. I've seen photos of one of their families and residence (including the domestic help they can afford to pay, since their spouses typically work also), and it's impressive by U.S.A. standards.
It has been very difficult to find the combination of strong skills and strong motivation in the U.S.A. When we paid our programmers USD$70k, we still sometimes ended up with people who lied on their resume or who "got bored" and didn't work to their potential. Fair enough; I wish them well. It's just not a good fit for my company.
It's entirely possible that Indian programmers will become fat, lazy, overpaid, and less literate. Until then, I salute them.
..U.S. companies will outsource to the farting alien lifeforms found on Mars and slashdot signatures will say
Dey tuk ouhr gobz!!!!!
"There is only a one in six billion chance that you actually exist"
a tech based company in one of the States in the US that has a lower cost of living.
The fact that my friends can rent a 2 story house for ~$800/month in Texas, while I'm paying about $2000/month for a 1 1/2 bedroom apt. in New York City, is proof that costs in other states are lower.
"Canadians...speak English with nearly American accents"... hey! Don't forget, Canadians are Americans also. We're all part of North America, the last time I checked.
;)
It drives many Canadians crazy when people call the U.S. "America" to the exclusion of everyone else. I cringe every time a U.S. legislator discusses how the "American People" have spoken.
A friend of mine had an interesting incident at customs heading into Windsor, Ontario a few years back when he was asked his citizenship. He told the customs officer he was "American", to which the customs officer replied, "We're all Americans here. What country are you from?"
Canadians: Americans for the price of Mexicans
"In a hierarchy every employee will rise to his level of incompetence". The Peter Principle
I can hear the IT department singing it now.
I don't... Thanks but no thanks, and oh, by the way, taxes up there are MURDER mate, MURDER...
Loading...
COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it.
This is not generally true.
The labor laws that we have are designed to prevent outliers cases. Abominiations and whatnot.
For example, by the time the civil war in the United States rolled around, a large number of plantations had started or already completed rolling back slave labour. Why? It is expensive. By the late 1800's, a number of factories in my home state (Maine) had limited the average work day, instituted minimum working age, and improved safety conditions considerably before the trend of unionization took over.
Why?
Because in the end, businesses are all about the bottom line. In the short term, sending unprofitable things and expensive things offshore saves the bottom line. But in the long run it is bad for business: bad for consumers, bad for the image of the company, etc. We are in the early phases of the outsourcing IT cycle. Some companies will go over board, some will do nothing, some will go down the middle. The ones who go too far will be burned, the ones who do nothing will be burned, the ones who choose just right will win.
until we unite and make a law about it
Yeah, that's what we need! Yet another protectionist law!
Somehow I don't think a few more lines of law on top of the 110 million we already have are going to solve all of our problems...
Hey say something in Canadian?
Ok, eh.
Any one notice that Al Jazerra is getting a Canada license, but Fox isn't...
Too many programmer wanna-be's, and plenty of openings that cannot be filled because only 1 in 10 qualifies. I am in Vancouver, and I am yet to meet a professional programmer without a job.
I ain't seen a mod point in a good couple of weeks, but if I had any...
There is a distinct difference, but that's not a bad thing. Honestly, I would much rather listen to someone who sounds like the MacKenzie brothers than someone who sounds like Fran Drescher.
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
Well put, and thanks for the link... Looks like I was looking for about the right salary for my new job.
At least the beer will be better, eh? Just watch out for bottles with mice in them. -TLAY
No one in here has yet mentioned the Quebec problem. The entire government has been taken over by the french. There has not been an English Canadian Prime Minister with a proper mandate since 1965. Federally, it is impossible to vote them out because they run Elections Canada, the agency which does the counting. In the last election, the polls predicted a conservative Stephen Harper minority, Elections Canada assures us instead that Paul Martin (the Quebecer - don't be fooled by the name) won a comfortable minority. They would have liked to have cooked it so he had a majority but it wouldn't have been believed. Canada will never again be run by an English Canadian Prime Minister while Quebec is part of the country and frenchmen are doing the counting.
Great! I was just idly wondering about it, and now you've gone and given me more information.
:)
Mod parent up!
feh. stuff.
...speak English with nearly American accents, have a similar culture and legal system, and get paid 40% less than U.S. programmers.
Here's another reason: just look at the education system on both sides. The canadian education system is quite good and I'd expect Canadians comming out of an average university to be more competant than for an average US university. Note that I'm not talking about MIT and the like here.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
...on the media here. It's the only supposedly democratic country I know of where the media spends more time attacking the opposition (Conservatives) than the party in power (Liberals). So yes, the Liberals aren't having FOX and Liberal propaganda seems to work best on teenagers.
Too many programmers not enough jobs.
Too many programmer wanna-be's, and plenty of openings that cannot be filled because only 1 in 10 qualifies. I am in Vancouver, and I am yet to meet a professional programmer without a job.
Add in CPP and EI. (Mandatory 'programs' are just more tax).
I don't know about you but I pay over $2k in property tax, 8% PST, 7% GST, fuel taxes, alcohol taxes and a health care levy.
To me this comes up pretty damn close to 50%.
I don't know the tax rates in Canada, so I have no quarrel with your figures. But even without knowing the rates I can tell your figures are too low.
Income tax is not the only tax. In Canada, as here in the US, after you're taxed on your income you get taxed again almost every time you spend your money.
Sales Tax
Alcohol Tax
Tobacco Tax
Gasoline Tax
Again I don't know about Canada, but here in the US we can't get a bill in the mail without a sizeable number of taxes and "gov't mandated fees" ( same as tax as far as I'm concerned ). A basic phone bill has a large percentage of separately listed fees that are mandated.
So the figures are all well and good, but leaving out all the fees paid post-tax is a pretty good omission.
Just on the gas tax, if you earned $10.00, paid 18% you'd net $8.20. When gas is $2.00 a gallon you can buy 4 even gallons. In CA the combined State and Federal gas taxes are about $.46 a gallon. For the 4 gallons purchased you'd pay $1.86 in taxes.
So, on this particular $10 you'd pay $3.66 in taxes, 36.6% being a little bit different than the 18% income tax.
Not all taxes are as high as those on gas, alcohol, tobacco and other "luxuries", but any comparison of taxes for a region has to include the taxes on the post-tax income to be accurate
But then again, there are lots of DBA's but not too many have half a clue what they are doing, so its a bit harder to find one.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
Small businesses get taxed at a much lower rate. In Nova Scotia (where I currently reside), the combined provincial/federal tax rate on small business is a mere %18.1 for the first $300k AFTER EXPENSES, and you can expense damn near anything that's biz-related (trips, meals, cars, computers, etc). You can then also take personal funds from the company out up to $25k/year as a tax-free dividend (may be going up soon!).
The upshot is if you incorporate and you have your wife on board as a signing officer, between the two of you you can pull out $50k @ %18.1 total tax, and the rest at a relatively low marginal rate, all while providing yourself with the trappings of money on the company dime through junketeering and expensing. And if your company grows, you can use additional corp funds by issuing yourself a shareholder loan for basically any amount, at any time.
The mantra that Canada is 'business unfriendly due to taxes' is basically just a warcry for those who want even MORE tax breaks in a country where many businesses would already operate with less tax burden than US counterparts. The reality is that I pay at or below the tax rates of many people to my south (particularly california).
If you're in Canada and making more than 70k/year, seriously look into incorporation. Your tax situation will improve dramatically.
I know that a company can save ~40% in salary just by moving there operations from either of the coasts to the Midwest or South. I can speak specifically about South-West Ohio where wages are at least 35% lower that the NE or the West. Plus you get the advantage of no language barriers or import/export costs.
Now that obesity is a medicare recognized disease does that mean that you're being a fathead is reimburseable as a mental illness or a physical illness?
filipinos are as competitively priced and as educated as indians, but their english and culture is more american
;-)
plus, large segments of the population work overseas, so virtually the entire country, from its education, its politics, and its culture, is geared towards thinking cosmopolitan and globally
people always talk about russia, india, canada... no one ever mentions our good friends the philippines, birthplace of the "i love you" virus, lol
(i go to cebu every year, i'm not impartial)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Alot of people complain about Canada's healthcare system but for 99% of the population its good. I live in one of the biggest cities and have no problems seeing a doctor within an hour or so if I need to. Specialists may take a few weeks/months but if its going to affect your quality of life you can get seen quicker.
"Thanks to the remote control I have the attention span of a gerbil."
Sooner or later, you have to spend your money, and the GST and PST (Sales Taxes) combined can come to 15%... Your 65% take home - 15% = well, you do the math...
Yes we have our own issues.
The health care system is a little overloaded, but when I had minor issues I just went to a walk in clinic.
I went a 8:30 in the morning and I got in within a few minutes.
Banking industry has some big players, but it is pretty competative, if you don't like it just borrow from another source.
The reason our interest rates are so high is our government set the rate at about 3% and the US is still around 1%, so the entire market is about 2% higher.
My opinion is that the middle class life isn't going to be much different in either country, like most first world countries you'd have pretty nice standard of living.
COmpanies used to use child labor util we made laws about it. Companies used to work people round the clock until we made laws about it. From their past track record companies WILL DO whatever they can GET AWAY WITH - until we unite and make a law about it.
They still do.
This is, after all, why the likes of Nike, Reebok, and Levis have exported their labour. Labour laws that apply only to domestic workers and not the products for sale, coupled with fairly efficient global transportation and communication networks ensures that companies continue to use exploitative labour. The countries where manufacturing labour gets exported to generally has few legal restrictions on working conditions.
You can probably find something about this on Naomi Klein's nologo.org web site.
... from the policy of bilingualism and the huge predominence of frenchmen in federal public positions, but in fact the french make up about 20% of the total population. And they are a shrinking minority at that, having a very low birthrate. Makes you wonder how they keep winning the elections, eh?
So why not save themselves some energy and just split the difference; the US sends 90,000 (165,000 - 75,000) people to canada, put the 75,000 to their own shipping quota and Canada doesn't have to send anyone at all. Makes perfect sence. =)
Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
Better yet, move your IT operation here. We've got plenty of dark fiber. Lots of space. Cheap cheap cheap real estate (with exception of Bozeman/Missoula), and cheap labor. I took a 50% salary cut to move here, but cost of living is such that we can get by on one salary (as opposed to two living in DC).
The way the Liberals have destroyed the economy and the dollar. Ignore the Liberal propaganda that tells you a low dollar is good - following that logic, when it gets down to about 2 cents, we'll really be well off!. Personally, I prefered the 92 cent dollar under the Conservatives' Mulroney to the 62 cent dollar under Liberal Chretien...
But it cost you 60% more to live here. Where is the savings?
Ya gotta remember that a large portion of Canada primarily speaks French. Broken English with a heavy French accent can be just as hard to understand as broken English with a Hindi accent.
You also have to remember they make up less then 1/4 of the country. Are heavily isolated from the rest due to language. And The rest of the coutnry would just as well not have them.... except the ladies. Montreal women are hot. Seriously, aside from ontario and some parts of the maritimes, the rest of the country would rather they just leave but ontario would then face 9 hostile provinces and 3 hostiel terrortories that all have a grudge against ontario and now have as many seats in parliment.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Might be time to think about moving North, eh?
Way ahead of you. I am set to move to Canada in May 2005. See ya later.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
has major domestic beers that don't taste like piss [labatts.ca]
Several times on this forum I have heard posters sing the praises of Canadian beers. Absurd. Canadian *mass market* beers like Labatts Blue, and Moosehead are no better than other international brands like Michelob, Coors, Bud, Fosters, Heineken. They should all be drunk at as low a temperature as possible to kill the taste. Happily in the U.S we have truely world class micro-breweries. If you have one near you support it! I greatly respect the beer reputations of Germany, Britain, Belgium, etc, and hope to sample beers in each of them someday. I just want to point out that the U.S. is a great place for beer enthusiasts.
an ill wind that blows no good
Nope, nope. We're all full up here in Canada. Yes, please go away.
You won't like it here. It's cold, yeah.... It's 25 C here in Vancouver. Brrrr.
Yes, that's right. Our healthcare system sucks. That's right. Please go away. *cough*, *cough*. Just ignore the international reports saying we has slightly better life expectancies.
Try Mexico or, maybe, India...?
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
Which shows that many Canadians have been brainwashed into thinking otherwise. But don't expect too much enlightenment from the Liberal controlled media here...
Canadian weather is nine months of winter, interrupted by three months of bad sledding.
Slashdot entertains. Windows pays the mortgage.
And since the entire country migrates en masse in the winter, Florida also makes sense. We have nice conservation plans for the Everglades.
But can you teach them to drive?
A Canadian must have written the title since they own 'Next Door'.
Here's some numbers for Vancouver (subjective of course, but still representitive) -
;-)
1200-1700 cad/mnth rents you a two-bedroom apartment in downtown with a sunset/water view. 600 will get you one-bedroom in 'uptown', which nevertheless is mere 30 min drive from downtown.
1000 cad/mnth should be more than enough to feed two people on a rich restaurant diet. Technically 500 will feed two people with home cooking.
200 cad/mnth gets you Hundai, 700 - Audi. Insurance is in 1200-2500 range per year.
In other words, 3000 cad per month gives two people very decent live with some spending money. That's about 70K per year before taxes, which is a high-intermediate pay for a fulltime developer. Senior fulltime pay goes up to 120K (but rarely above it). Contracting gives you twice as much or more.
Still not willing to move ?
3.243F6A8885A308D313
Here are three Canadian tech companies that produce products I use at work everyday: Miranda, International Datacasting, Broadview Software. Nice to have NAFTA and not have to pay tarrifs!
My sister-in-law works for a company that contracts to MSN and MCI. The average hourly wage is $9 (CDN). She lives in a small town in Canada, but $9 an hour is still hard to live on. Her employer was recently quoted in the paper as saying that they view these jobs as secondary incomes and that people should therefore be happy to be making any extra money, or, in many cases, to have their first Canadian job (if they are a foreign-trained engineer, for example). In other words, the employer feels that white men have "real" jobs and that these C$9 an hour jobs bring luxury to the lives of women and immigrants. Ouch. This so-called "secondary income" employer is the main employer in several small towns in Canada. The jobs aren't secondary -- they're the only game in town.
-- SYS 64738 --
They only care about saving money and doing things for LESS.
... of course the bottom line matters to them. If it costs 20 peices of gold to build something in the USA and only costs 5 peices of gold to build something in India I'd be interested to. The interesting part is the lengths people in India go to - to learn english and to rid themselves of any accent they have in order to get jobs with tech help firms. Something to be learnt there. We have a company here that is contracted out by big corporations to provide telephone support for some computer companies. The city had to compete with other cities...
Uh they're a business
The American way has been to complain about the loss of jobs, threaten to create laws preventing companies from working outside of the USA (schwartzenegger talked about canadians taking jobs away from americans in the movie industry and wanted to put a stop to it) Sadly america CANT have it all. This is capitalism at work.
As for the article itself? We do not have similar cultures and laws to our american counterparts. Completely disagree - watch some canadian TV(read a few canadian authors)and you'll see MAJOR differences in culture.
Amazingly, the average IQ in both nations will drop!
"Skill shows through where genius wears thin." -Wittgenstein || Religion: uniting aviation and architecture.
We do most of our cutting-edge R&D in the US and send our mature products to our Calgary division for late-stage releases and support. Its about 30% cheaper.
Yes, our culture tends to create a psychological conditioning where you are expected to give up rights in order to be employed...witness the requirement of some jobs that you give up the right to own any inventions/ideas that you make to your boss (working at a high-tech electronic taximeter firm in the 70's, I had to sign a contract giving anything I invented to by boss so that I could work at his firm, my first job, I needed that job, needless, everyone there was treated badly). The cultural "norm" for high-tech feilds is the accusation of "you are not very good/commited to your work/profesion etc. if you complain about treatment (workload) or salary. The distinction that your own time is the same as your work time also is very present and the fact that your own time/efforts are somehow inferior to your work time is also present and silly too...it was about 25 years ago that working from your home was considered to not be real work (I got insulted/ignored on the phone talking to suppliers back then (1980's)(working from home), perhaps it was better in the 1970's in silicon valley..(re:revenge of the nerds documentary by chringley). A good book (old time-life book) was the book: Status and Conformity, published in the early 1970's, just after the impact of the hippy cultural revolution...it's funny that the 1970's influenced to a great extent the development of the personal computer, because, just to work on a computer (mainframe or mini-computer) required you to go to university and get a CS BS just so you could program in cobal and assembler and the other popular languages of the time. The fact that Pc's are everywhere nowadays means that your typical boss will require you to work long hours and take advantage of you....the advantage of lots of eager people means lower wages for everyone...I live in canada and a friend works at a high-tech firm and the progarmmers do get paid a lot less (excuse: it's high-tech, go get a boring bank programming job if you want real money or go to the US if you want more money)....the internet makes outsourcing of high-tech jobs is fairly easy now and companies will want everybody to work at some sort of lowest common denominator wage eventually...the future of low wage jobs will eventually spread to all (better paying) jobs with the application of nanotech brain implants that allow your pointy-haird bos to connect to the lowest wage/most talented person/database-robot-ai somewhere in the world to figure out how to do biotech/medicine/nanotech/lawyer/you-name-applicat ion of the moment, if the boss doesn't do it, his cheap (hired off the street) employee will do it. With the growth of the worlds population and the rise if India/china/etc the ability to find well-paying work gets to be a more complex challange. Perhaps the only person making any real money some day will be the Bill Gates (read company owners) as all jobs (even up to the boss at the top (excluding the owner) will be outsourced, I think that the real danger of avanced AI (matrix, battlestar galactica, AIbrain(s) etc.) will not be the fact that they wipe us out with nukes/androids), but that they replace us with cheaper human workers and/or non-human workers by direct replacement or augmenting a human so he/she can do the work of many dozens/hendreds or normal human workers. (oops, getting carried away again, where did I put my medication?)
This story is already stating what has happened for the past 2-3 years.
And if you're an American programmer , you still will lose your job. What does it matter if it goes to Canada or India ? The only reason I could see is that it would be easier to move to Canada and integrate yourself into their society.
I'm in Kingston too!
What kind of skills do you have? I started my own business making software for PDAs.
--
Marc A. Lepage
Software Developer
I can't believe anyone mod'd you as flamebait. (also tongue in cheek) I can't think of anything funnier than you folks invading us considering you failed the last two times you tried that. Maybe third time lucky? On a serious note... I can't think of two countries which are so similar yet seem to thrive on baiting each other!:)
You could also look for IT companies in Mexico. Cost of living there is cheaper, we share the same timezones as the US, we have similar cultures, etc.
There are a couple of companies that can give you very competitive rates (not as cheap as India, but cheaper than the US).
Disclaimer: I work for one of these companies, but I don't want to sound like an ad. Go and search for yourself. There are many.
Signatures are supposed to be funny?
Why would a swamp need to know how to drive?
And just FYI, typing "Why would a swamp need to know how to drive?" takes 17 seconds
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
...I'd rather hear someone in India who has a good reason for not understanding me, rather than a Canadian who is clueless, eh?
No offence intended to Canadians, just worthless tech support.
--QTone, not French
Americans, what ever you do, don't come to Canada. The US is much better than Canada. It is cold here, you would never survive. Go anywhere else but here. Please. Speaking as a Canadian, we love you dearly but we prefer if you stay lower than the 49th parallel. Don't listen to the people who say that Canada is better than the US. Here be dragons. In fact, please forget you ever heard of Canada. There is no such country as Canada. US good stay in US. Please.
I work at a small company that started with a development office in the US and one in Canada. We eventually also brought in an Indian contracting firm, and ultimately ended up opening our own Indian development office. Hiring in both Canada and the US has stopped (US hiring stopped first), and now all development growth is in our office in India. Once you go down the road of looking for the cheapest development approach (and the business types definitely do that) it is tough to justify Canadian development when Indian (or others) is even less expensive.
I live in Ontario, Canada and I just want to say Canada Rocks! The people are amazingly nice and friendly, and the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) is party central. Go Leafs!
*drinks a kokanne and tokes a joint*
More likely the large Xerox call center in Saint John NB.
I'd rather chew glass while walking on hot asphalt with bare feet than deal with the Canadian sense of superiority.
Living in NYC has it's own advantages. Here, I can go Tango Dancing every day of the week, see the best museums
You pay dearly for those events, or you attend a free event with 149,782 other people in one room. Every room in the worthwhile musuems are carefully watched by dour-faced security guards;
never have to drive the death machine we call an automobile,
Take a look at the air-pollution levels for Manhattan. Take a look at asthma and cancer rates. You have not avoided the death machines after all;
can go out drinking without worrying about how I am getting home
But if you shake your hips to a song in an unlicensed venue, the entire bar can and will get shut down. Ditto that if you smoke. Or if the music/crowd is loud and the neighbors complain;
Living in Canada would be a marked decrease in my Life Style.
Try Vancouver. Most films pretend it is New York, anyway. There is more *actual* culture there, with a lot less attitude. You won't waste $90 on a night of drinks, either.
====---====
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
Er, your sure there's no error in the exchange rate or anything? It's hard to believe that we get paid a full 40% less.
The taxes on the taxes, the manufacturing taxes, the pre-production taxes, the impact taxes. The billing taxes, leverence taxes, equalization taxes, recoup taxes, connection taxes, 'privitization' taxes, property taxes, school taxes(sometimes not counted in your property). Then we can get into the hidden taxes that we know, consumer, non-consumer, 'fresh stock', non-fresh stock, refiners fees, and on and so forth.
I'm probably forgetting six or seven dozen others as well.
I figured mine to being around 58% on $72,658/yr, that means my take home after taxes was around $30k. The average income of my area is around $60,000(meaning I live in Oshawa, London, Oxford) People who live here at $60k, are living OK. In truth...that's it. 60k or even 70k is enough to get by with a family of 4. The biggest thing I see now, is incomes all over Ontario climbing above for a family over 100K that's not 'high living' thats one person supporting the family, one person to supply excess 'slush' funds in most cases.
Oh by whatever god you want...Canada Loves it's taxes. How else do we pay for blowing billions on useless programs? And throwing money away on 'legacy' and 'unity' projects.
Om, nomnomnom...
...and the moose work even cheaper, eh?
People should also note, that when I was in Calgary, the government actually paid for some our electricity, because the government was doing so well.
testing out my trending skills
i do support for hp pavilion and compaq presario desktops. india also does support for these. its pretty funny when almost every customer i get starts off with 'oh thank god you speak english' and doesn't want to let me off the phone for any reason because they know 9 times out of 10 they'll get india again.
.. customers like us better, we're still cheaper than american counterparts, and we don't break everything, needlessly service machines, send out unneeded cds, etc.
also, considering the horrible job india does (a lot of calls i get are fixing issues caused by their ineptitude), its surprising to me that they actually continue to outsource to india
Ya gotta remember that a large portion of Canada primarily speaks French.
Are you absolutely fucking retarded? That's nowhere even CLOSE to the truth. Seriously, why bother posting if you just don't have a clue?
Regarding your sig, "If you don't like it, ignore it. All negative mods are meta-moderated 'unfair'. ALL OF THEM." I would just like to point out why I think your meta-moderation is misguided.
The current moderation system has a top limit of +5. However, since slashdot has so many posters these days, there can easily be 50+ posts moderated at that level. For this reason, I ALWAYS moderate down, never up, so as to reduce the number of +5 moderations. As such, I'm not usually moderating because I don't like something, just because I think it is less qualified to be +5 than some of the other posts which made it to that level.
Life's a lot like money-- you spend it, then it's gone. Spend wisely.
Companies do NOT care if you have talk to a guy speaking Spanglish, Engrish, or Hinduish
Umm, Hinduism is a religion, not a language. The language is called Hindi, and it's only one of many languages spoken in India.
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
Convergus in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada (geographic centre of North America) employed a baffling array of high-tech to low-tech skilled people I know--as $8/hour computer support. They recently outsourced their cheeep support to India. The level 1 support people all were canned. The level 2s were going to canned later.
$8/hour is around the poverty level in Winnipeg. Wage slaves now with wages (& jobs).
Welcome to 2004, the big double 'O's.
Oh please Americans, don't come in Canada, we don't need people who like to do war against any country just for the fun of it here.
40% is conservative actually. In fact I'd say a more accurate figure would be 45-65% depending on the position. There is also a shortage of work. The % of unemployment has been steady between 3-3.5% higher than in the US for years now. Not to forget we are the true embodiment of a *working class taxed to death*. There is also laws which make it extremely difficult for outside companies to setup shop in canada and the tax bracket is so high that most small to medium size companies will not be willing to open up branches in Canada. Not to mention the new *medicare tax* we were slapped on this summer, (which translates into another $1000 CAD for someone in their mid 50Ks salary) to pay to the gevernment. In the mean time I haven't gone to the doctor in at least 6 years for anything......but I must give the fat a$$ed governemt beurocrats more money, so they can enjoy a better vacation. Our Liberal government is also close friends with CUBA, RUSSIA and CHINA. I wonder is that rings any bells to anyone...if not, let me just say that the Liberal flag is all red. It's only missing a star (that's because they are affraid of the US)
Stats canada
The phaomnneil pweor of the hmuan mnid. Fcuknig amzanig eh!
*cough*Texas*cough*
:wq
...I live in the "best" country in the world, and I can tell you for one that I'd very much like to import some better climate. Being on the same latitude as Anchorage, Alaska means there's some room for improvement (even though the Gulf Stream helps)...
On all the "society" scores (literacy, education, freedoms of speech, equality of the sexes, crime rates etc. etc.) we do well. But overall I don't feel we're that rich, because the cost of living pretty well match our salaries. What is cheap is imports - like e.g. computers. And so it going on vacation. But working here, making a living? Not too different from the rest of the world, I think.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Here's a great example of a company that's doing some "offshoring" work in Canada and actively marketing it as a better alternative than Indian offshoring.
Yes and no.
You're 100% correct that while the marginal tax rate might be as high as 50% or so, the effective tax rate is closer to the 30% mark. That's your income tax, and you'll only pay about 30% of your income on that.
But, as has been pointed out, the amount of taxes we pay on other things add up. According to this
'tax freedom day' calculator which factors in all of the other stuff, you actually do start hitting the 50% threshold with everything accounted for.
This measures how far into the year you would have to go to pay your tax bill assuming that the government collected their cut before you got anything. The average Canadian is end of June/early July before that happens.
So, according to the Fraser Institute (who are the ones that get cited in these things), cumulatively, most Canadians do actually pay about 50% of their total income in various direct and indirect taxes.
Sorry dude.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
That's the most interesting comment that I've had on my meta-moderation decision. Most people just flame me for it.
You bring up an interesting point. I probably won't change my ways, but I'll certainly consider this method of moderation.
Frankly, there probably just needs to be a new moderation system. This current one seems to be breaking down under the sheer volume of posts that we have.
When we got Ireland next door! (Go here if you don't get that.)
You know, I also love to meta-moderate troll and offtopic moderations 'unfair', but I actually read the posts, and when it's a GNAA or other like-post, I either leave it 'neutral' or set it to 'fair'.
Anything else seems sort of reckless and an abdication of the worst kind...
But that's my conscience, not yours.
Those Americans are cleary INDIFFERENT to their governement killing innoncents in Vietnam and Iraq just for the heck of it, they are so different to Canadians that it's not even funny.
Articles like this always downplay the loss of productivity involved. For example, the number of man-hours involved in changing all references of "back bacon" to "ham" would be staggering.
> I like it that we don't spend anything on military.
Which is OK so long as you remember the price you pay for that. On the plus side you guys get a lot more money to cover up the failures of socialism and postpone the day of reckoning.
On the other side it means you are a child nation, utterly dependent on others for protection. Namely the United States. You live carefree lives without a thought for defense or other matters of the world because WE take care of you, extending the protection of our arms to secure your safety. Your opinion in the councils of the world count for little for the same reason, the adults find it hard to take anything you say seriously because you not only aren't considered a real country, but also because in the end the world is still run by force and the threat of force and you lack the force to back up your words. You are basically Guam only bigger and with a seat in the UN general assembly. (Not that a seat in the UN counts for much, after all Morocco has exactly the same vote as all of Canada.)
Even France's voice counts more in the councils of the world because for all that they are French (silly treacherous twits) they actually possess the means of defending themselves and a small ability to project their will on the global stage, unfortunately even including the Bomb.
p.s. yes, I'm tweaking the Canadians a bit here. It's a slow news Friday, might as well stir things up a little.
Democrat delenda est
I have been working on a long term American driven global application. I currenly have one other programmer working on contract doing the same.
My team in the U.S. loves having a low latency on changes fixes and such. They have worked with large IT companies in India and have had complaints regarding issue latency. For a bug that would take 2 days to resolve specifics and fix, in Canada it would be 2 hours.
One of the reasons this has not happend in Canada yet is the lack of involvement of the Canadian Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments to get involved in making such a formula work. The reason it works so well in countries such as India is the programs sponsored by the goverment.
I'd love to see such companies start up in the near future. Any takers?
Sure, you laugh at moving to Canada now, but what about global warming?
Ten years from now, you'll be spending you're 40% on air conditioning while my vacation property up on Baffin Island will be looking pretty ***king sweet.
I could use some variety ;)
As it is now, I work for AT&T Wireless... they don't even have service up here in Canada, but I listen to americans whine about their crappy phones all day long anyway.
Wait, no, I mean I listen to intelligent people compliment me on their most excellent cell phone service! Everybody should go buy a cell phone from AT&T Wireless, they're really the greatest!
That seems to be the attitude amongst upper-management types (PHB's, "management weenies", etc.) these days and now, apparently, we find it's not just a problem here in the U.S. but it's a global "problem" (which, if we blow this thing way, way out of proportion and up to near ridiculous extremes -- and isn't that always fun? -- may just make a good thing (tm) out of it; as long as I have a job that supports my family and I can do it from home -- meaning "my homeland", not necessarily my house -- who cares if my PHB is on another continent?!?! We export jobs to India, who exports jobs to Isreal, who exports jobs to Pakistan (I know, unlikely, but just play along...), who exports jobs to Germany, who exports jobs to...US -- we could indirectly end up working for ourselves again!) ...
Of course, all this sounds suspiciously pyramidical
This space intentionally left (almost) blank.
I get paid 43K a year here in the Province of Saskatchewan (about 750miles/1,200KM east of the Pacific Coast for those who have no idea where I'm talking about). Some of you in San Fran might think "Holy crap, only 43K!? No thanks!"... but lets look at my cost of living:
The above is in CDN $ (of course) and includes taxes (where applicable). My monthly take home, after taxes, ei, cpp (canadian pension plan), health benefits deductions, and deductions from company shares is still 2,350$ a month. 2,350 - 975 = 1,375$ of play money in a city that's stupid cheap to live in.
So off the top, yea, 43K looks like peanuts (and in some cities like Vancouver it IS peanuts), but where I'm at, in "big" city Saskatchewan, it's quite a bit of coin.
Dilbert: Do you see what's happening with our attempt at outsourcing?
PHB: Yes, we sent all the work to India.
Dilbert: Who outsourced it to Korea, who outsourced it to Vietnam, who outsourced it to Chile, who outsourced it to US! Don't you realize we're charging ourselves to screw ourselves?
PHB: We should raise our prices.
Companies do NOT care if you have talk to a guy speaking Spanglish, Engrish, or Hinduish - They only care about saving money and doing things for LESS.
Don't you think you're being a little simplistic?
In my experience, while I agree that companies care about keeping costs low, many of them are not willing to risk quality to save money. You also have to keep in mind that low quality usually suggests it is going to cost more money to use and maintain over time.
If you don't think language is important in the software development process, then I'd like you to take notice of advertised positions emphasising communication skills. Not being able to communicate with the people designing your software is like not being able to communicate with the architect or foreman building your factory.
Not everything can be boiled down to saving a buck, including predicting people's motives.
You talk of speaking french as some sort of disease...
It's not the plague you know; as a french speaking IT worker I can say that most of us speak at least enough english to be functionnal in the workplace. As for non-IT workers in Quebec it's another story. The thing is, english is basicaly a necesity in computers since most litterature and jargon associated with CS is english. We do have some lousy translations for things like E-Mail (Courriel), Software (Logiciel), Freeware (Gratuitciel) but they never really got momentum as far as common use goes.
Might be time to think about moving North, eh?"
I will NEVER move North! I'd rather not be a programmer than move north. I think that Les Schwab might be hiring tire changers...
he pretends he's from Canada (so he doesn't know where Harvard University is). What's next? I run into some canuck and he pretends he's from Bangalor (so he doesn't know shit)?
... or cue the movie "Fargo"
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Canada has apologized numerous times for Bryan Adams
First of all, any over-sensitive Canadians out there, take a deep breath. This isn't a bash. I know Canada is the bigger country in terms of land mass. The reason I say Canada is basically an extension of the US is this. 90% of Canadians live within an hour of the US border. While Canada is a HUGE country all the people are hugging right up against the border.
I once had an argument with a Canadian guy when I was in Guatemala. A local had said he thought Canada and the US were pretty much the same, which is why he just called us 'norteamericanos'. The Canadian guy kinda flipped out and said, "Canada and the US have TOTALLY different cultures!!" The Guatemalteco asked us, "Are most of you Catholic, like us?". No, we both answered our countries are protestant for the most part. He proceded to ask us about schooling, how old people were when they got married, family structures, eating habits customs, etc... Every answer was the same down the list. Finally I just asked the Canadian guy what two countries he thought were most similar out of Guatemala, the US and Canada. Did he really mean that the culture was TOTALLY different? He insisted that he did, but he still couldn't rationalize any answer to my question other than that the US and Canada did indeed have more in common with each other than either had with Guatemala. Then I asked how he felt if I threw in a country like China, where there's little Christianity at all, a non-indoeuropean language, a communist government, and really different family relationships.
The fact is, like it or not, the two countries are about the same. Look at the demographics. In terms of race, language, and religion there's little difference. Sure there are some differences: America has more native (Amerindian) and part native people, Canada has more Catholics, the second languages are different etc... But both coutries are capatalist, comparatively free, mostly white but still diverse, have high divorce rates, don't have many extended family households, and around 85% of both populations speak English and very similar English at that.
People talk about guns, sure. But gun ownership in Canada is pretty damned high. I've read some estimates at over 25%. Americans don't have that many. It may be easy to get a gun in Texas, but what about California? For that matter, what about Alberta? I have some family there, and they are the only gun owning family members I have. Hell, I, as a foreigner, was able to buy ammo in Canada. I'm not saying there isn't a lot of gun control in Canada. There is, especially in the south. But, it's not the stark contrast to the US that Canadian TV makes it out to be. Drugs? Once again, there's a difference but it's not that big. Pot is decriminalized in my home state as well as a couple dozen others. Gay marriage? Maybe it's not that controversial there. I don't know. Maybe someone will take that point and make a huge argument about how Canada is really more like France than the US. Whatever.
The big difference I see culturally is that Americans don't hate Canadians, and we don't have any popular TV shows based on mocking people of any given race, nationality or religion (like the Canadian show "Talking to Americans).
BTW, if any of this seems bitter, it's because about 2/3 of the Canadians I've met abroad have been absolute ASSHOLES to me upon learning I was American. 3 or 4 have even blamed me personally for US policy because of the fact that I PAY INCOME TAX!!! Come on, guys. Nationalistic prejudice is unbecomming, no matter who you direct it at.
While the populace at large is 3rd world, South Africa have thousands of highly skilled, articulate IT professionals available.
Its a mystery to me why US companies haven't exploited this, like the UK employers have. Indians for example are probably cheaper per capita, but with lower ROI due to some of the language/culture barriers.
1. Bacon-ish ...unless you college boys wanna nit-pick.
2. Ham-ish
3. "Other"
Sorry, pal. That's the common usage. When someone says "American", 99% of the time it means "a person from the United States of America". Heck some langauges such as Japanese have taken America as a loan word to mean ONLY that. Considering that "the United States" is ambiguous in that it could refer to "the United States of Mexico", and no other countries in North America have "America" in their name, it's a quick and reasonable way to refer to the place.
What do you want America to mean? Does it just include the United States of America and Canada? Should Mexico be included so that "America" means North America? Or how about including Central and South Americans too? Then "America" would mean the Americas. See where this is headed?
It's simplest to just go by common usage. "America" means the USA. North America also includes Canada and Mexico, and the Americas means the entire "New World". Besides, if Canadians waste their time worrying about diction they can't change, maybe they won't have as much time to invest in making nationalistic insults, watching "Talking to Americans", or generally being rude to us. And THAT, would be good news for all Americans.
I'm a gnu world man.
The last time I "moved North" to do a contract job in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, some assholes slashed all four tires on my car because it had US plates on it.
They do NOT want Americans in Canada.
Besides, who wants to always be looking at the side of the soup can in the supermarket that's in French (courtesy of the Quebecois)?
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
Personally I always ask for a "Toilet"
However, I'm British.
Colloquially, "bog" is a popular name.
Never heard the term restroom spoken before - obviously there's no american pollution of english here yet. *ducks flames*
If you want to taste a real poutine, you have to go to Victoriaville, QC (or perhaps Drummondville, QC, but its discutable).
Poutine in Quebec city lacks in cheese freshness (and Ashton (thats a small restaurant chain in quebec city, quite popular here) fries are not well cooked, IMO), and I once saw a restaurant in Montreal where there was no cheese curds but shredded cheese, and some kind of spaghetti sauce instead of gravy. Yuck.
"...a generation of kids has grown up thinking Trance is the shittiest music since country and western." - Paul van Dyk
You may lose 40% compared to US dollars but you don't lose anything when comparing quality of life.
;)
You gain free universal health care, safer streets, lots of water, better beer and you get to live in the homeland of the most famous TV and music stars
The cost of electronics varies greatly across Canada; in BC, they're dirt cheap.
Actually, it's more like when you go out to a bar with a friend who can't handle his booze. At some point he starts mouthing off, insulting anybody within earshot, and so on. If you're feeling generous, you either stand by him or at least try to calm the other bar patrons down. Sometimes though, he just gets to be a bit much and you pretend you never met him.
When you don't routinely piss people off, your needs for self defense are quite a bit less.
France has power on the world stage because their GNP is double that of Canada, and is #5 in the world. Sure, Canada's per-capita GNP is almost the same as that of Germany, Great Britain or France, it just doesn't have the population they do.
On the other hand, if seats on international bodies is all that counts, Canada may lack a seat on the Security council, but that's a historical artifact. Afterall, Japan and Germany also lack permanent seats but both France and Russia have one? Canada is, however, part of the British commonwealth, along with India, Australia, Pakistan and Tuvalu -- overall 30% of the world's population.
Clearly, the US believes that might makes right, and that the world operates on force. There are other countries that believe the same: Saudi Arabia, Russia, Myanmar, Sudan, Iraq (past and present)... On the other hand, the rest of the developed world thinks of using force as a last resort, only after diplomacy fails.
Back to the bar metaphor, if it comes to a fight, Canada doesn't have to worry about going in alone. If you're a decent person, and you don't start fights, you know there will always be plenty of people to back you up.
>> An American $499 Dell is Canadian $550
Nope.
Dell's default configurations are different in Canada.
I configured two low-end systems identically: Dimension 2400, 128mb, 80gb, 48x CDRW, 17" monitor, cheap speakers, optical mouse.
The results...
USD$628, $0 shipping, $50 rebate. Final: USD$578.00
CAD$834, $10 shipping. Final: CAD$844.00.
USD$578.00 is CAD$757.00. The system in the US also includes a free camera, which they do not seem to offer in Canada.
Looks like not only are you completely and totally wrong, but the Canadian consumer gets pretty well shafted.
Hmmm, for those who are still lookng for an IT job in U.S., should we thank the outsourcing companies or blame the open-sourcing COM like Bigg Gates said earlier this month? :-)
How about personal safety?
In the US, Honolulu, Houston, and San Francisco all take 40th place (score 106.5). Meanwhile, Chicago, New York, and Seattle share position 64 (score 100) in the rankings. The lowest scoring city in North America is Washington D.C, ranked 107 (score 85)."
Perhaps your definition for Quality of Life is different, but the Big Apple looks a little rotten to me. Is it true that most New Yorkers don't get out much?
American companies DON'T WANT Canadian employees or Canadian offices. The ones that maintain Canadian offices do so only because of specific laws and regulations about importing or manufacturing goods in Canada. If these laws were removed American companies would close Canadian subsidiary offices in a heartbeat.
Some reasons American companies don't want to employ Canadians in Canada:
sure, the Canadian gets paid less but there is more overhead such as health care, payment of unemployment insurance, workers compensation, canada pension plan and the associated costs to manage and remit these payments.
employment laws and standards - in Washington state employment is "at will" - in Canada employers are required to justfy firings, give notice, pay severance, etc...
different laws - privacy, etc mean you need to retain Canadian lawyers - more cost...
cross border workers - you have an expert in the US - you can certainly send your American expert to other US offices where the certain skill is needed but you can't send your American expert to Canada to do work - he could get arrested by Canada Customs and your company will face expensive legal costs and fines. it's also the reverse for your Canadian expert - he can't work in the US without a permit - and those arent easy to get.
new enhanced border security - yes, you can get into Canada but try coming back and see the hassle you will get - one of our people came back but had to surrender his laptop and technical gear to US Customs. This happened last year and we don't ever think we'll get the stuff back...
let's hear from others about experiences both good and bad... I'm certain there's worse!
new border security
I'm sorry, but what are the top three IT hubs and how are you measuring them?
My understanding is that what little IT there is in Alberta is almost entirely internal stuff for company HQs in Calgary (ie: no software companies). And I could find any number of measures that consistently put Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, and Ottawa above anywhere in Alberta.
You forgot:
GST - 7%
PST - 0 to 17%
Liquor tax - 135% liquor
Road tax - 50% gasoline
MSP premiums - 100/mo per family
EI / UI premiums - chunk of first 40K
CPP - chunk of first 45K
Propertiy taxes - varies - 1% of my total income
Canada's total tax burden is well over 50%. End story.
You did that wrong, when quoting Canadian weather, ALWAYS leave off the "C" part, so American just assume that it is measured in Farenheit.
hahahahaha, fk'n eh!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The article was comparing Canadian outsourcing to Indian and Chinese outsourcing.
Look, I don't want to be rude here, but I keep hearing this kind of thinking from Canadians. I know lots of Canadians don't WANT to be like Americans... but face it, you are. Not the same, but very similar. Canadians and Americans aren't like "chalk and cheese". Canadians and Americans are like colby and cheddar. Canadians and Chinese are like chalk and cheese.
For what it's worth, I'm sure working with Aussie's, while not quite as easy as working with Canadians (do to time zone and accent), is a heck of a lot simpler than working with Indians or Chinese. Take my word for it. I live in China, and though I speak and read Chinese, it's a hell of a lot easier to get business done with Canadians than Chinese. I don't have to deal with lots of attempts to cheat "the ignorant foreigner", guanxi, companies with connections to corrupt officials, or any of that crap. I don't care if a thousand Canadians argue until they're blue in the face about how different you are from Americans like me. To me, despite whatever nationalism prejudice you harbor against me, you are still familiar and easier to relate to or work with than just about anyone else in the world.
I'm a gnu world man.
Wow, Vagary, you almost asked for it with that subject line.
Before judging Alberta for its visible IT stuff alone, consider what you discovered during your decision to attend Queens. The quality of the intellectual infrastructure is not determined by the number of visible software companies, but by why they exist. For every IBM, there are dozens, if not hundreds of IT shops that depend on and supply it. Only a rich envrionment in addition to what IT stuff we see in the public.
Care to explain how your rankings are derived?
Hhahahaha, Rush albums!! You FOOL! That doesn't repel me, it gives me a reason to invade! "The ones who hold high places must be the ones to start!" Let's invade now, after all "we're only immortal for a limited time!" "Why does it happen? Because it happens, ROLL THE BONES", BABY, MUAHAHAHAHA!!
uh.. about this Celine Dion person though... perhaps we could do a swap? We get Sarah McLachlan, Celine goes home? Oh, if "I could wave my magic wand..."
I'm a gnu world man.
Now what I am saying is juse heresay, so you Northerners can maybe comment. I heard that you can get loans at really low interest rates. Something like 2% or less. Now while at first that sounds like a great idea for the consumer, it doesn't allow the banks to make much money on the deals. So the banking *industry* just doesn't have the money to advance. Or I guess I should say the banking business. Of course, the person I heard this from worked at a bank up there, and this was a few years ago, so perhaps it has improved.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I suspect the reason more Americans don't move to Canada is because of the climate. I don't know about recently, but historically about 5 times as many canadians have moved to the US than vice-versa... plus for the job opportunities. I dunno how much this is changing.
Oh c'mon, give up your hideous Canadian/Torontonian inferiority complex. Truth is that only a nitwit considers "foriegn born" to be equal to "culturally diverse".
They got socialized medicine, eh. Great hockey teams, eh. Back bacon, eh. You can learn and speak French, eh. When the US brings back the draft, you can hide in Canada, eh. Work for 40% less, and have a government that works for you, eh.
You can design web pages for Michael Moore, eh. He contracts out to Canada for his work, eh. Inbetween IT jobs you can always find work as a lumberjack, eh.
"Warning, slippery when sarcastic!"
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Convergus in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada (geographic centre of North America)
Isn't the geographic centre of North America Rugby, North Dakota? Or are you not counting Mexico or something?
To add insult to "progression" we get a GST rebate based on taxable income. The more taxable income you have the bigger the rebate.
As someone else pointed out this is not quite true. The GST rebate actually works like an inverted U, as you make more (up to about $15k) you get more because you're spending more (and therefore paying more GST). Then as you start making even more (above around $25k) you start getting less, because you need the break less. And you actually get $56 every four months even if you're making 0 dollars, according to this.
Personally I think this makes a whole lot of sense. And I was pleasantly surprised to discover my amount going up as I got better co-op jobs.
aww jeez they have a website for jobs! tried it but its all *greek* in firefox.
compete using creativity not just cost & qualityWe live in interesting times where the economies can undercut in price and oversupply in key knowledge requirements. Edward deBono was on the National Press club (televised journalist club speech with variety of different quests) talking about this topic. Here's the link to read (Ideas unleash value' - Edward de Bono tells East ~ 13/07/2004) . In summary he reckons that when you have lowered all your costs, raised your quality levels as far as you can sustained creativity will be the differentiator.
Here's another link that pretty much summarises what the talk was about.
"If you've got China on your doorstep, where the average production wage is $100 a month and, I'm told, it can be as high as $3,000 a month here, that's a hell of a difference," he said. "What will happen -- as is already happening -- is that Japanese companies are opening factories in China, initially to serve the Chinese market.
"But once they're there, they are going to be serving the world market. And that's going to have a drastic impact as it means employment here certainly won't be expanding," he said. As a result, Japan has two ways to compete with China's cheap production costs: It can automate, although this isn't much of a solution as it does not create employment; or it can put a lot of emphasis on creativity.
Simply relying on the quality of products from Japan won't work, he pointed out, as "China is coming on in terms of quality and technology, so it's creativity that is going to be the key."
[Edward deBono ~ Japan must think outside the box if it hopes toThis is certainly a (but not the only) path I'm following.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
L3m@r... Horray for random attacks when you don't have any real information, or any real point to make.
Ah interesting, I would certainly concede that Calgary has the best potential for IT grow in Canada. So why doesn't it have more of the other IT things, like software companies? Is it possible that its because Calgary is lacking in the Creative Class? (Whether it's true or not, even urban Alberta has a serious redneck image; could this be keeping IT talent away?)
wrong.
the Gang Of Bush does, but it's not the same.