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It appears that the kernel source is available for TiVo - you can get it here . Kickass. Now you can have your own TiVo too - of course you'd have to let loose of your PC... Or hell, multiboot! Leave home for the weekend, and put your oh-so-expensive PC into TiVo mode... Now lessee if I can compile it on Amiga Linux *g*

http://www.tivo.com/linux/
Sure is.

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Isn't TiVo an embedded Linux box that has made it to the market?

It would be a downright awful idea to create an InstallShield Package Installer tool that forcibly requires user intervention. The folks at TiVO have taken an interesting approach; they offer to do a system upgrade every day and this requires no user intervention.

After all, the only thing easier than moving from CLI-based utilities to X-based utilities is to move to cron-based utilities that don't require that the user do anything at all.

The Debian folk have been working on improved front ends for quite some time, and prototypes for the dselect replacement pop up occasionally.

Similar is true for RPM; if you actually look, you'll find tools that are actively being worked on.

But I'd still argue that if, as you say,

The average computer user simply can't handle the command line, let alone compiling things or even extracting files from a tarball.

Charles is right that Linux, even with KDE or Gnome, isn't suitable for SOHO environments where the user doesn't have a 'Linux Friend' handy. And I don't see this changing without us ditching the UNIX underpinnings.

I disagree. IRIX seems to be fairly user friendly last time I tried it. MacOSX comes from Apple, whose fortunes live and die by UI and ease-of-use, and they seem to be pretty happy with a unix-based infrastructure.

The point is, it doesn't really matter what you're running underneath as long as it's flexible, stable, and efficient. Linux is (or can be configured to be) that. What you need for ease of UI and ease of use is for motivated developers to create that interface and libraries. It's happening as I write this.

Personally, I believe that Linux will eventually make serious desktop inroads for many reasons (price, dollar-magnet of UI inevitably drawing commercial interest, international nature of linux, power on old platforms, driver support) and that the areas which are weakest (ease-of-use in the UI, ease of configuration, desktop apps) are being worked on.

Don't forget, TiVo is a Linux-based solution that is extremely easy to use...

It can be done.

It SHALL be done.

Be patient.

Your Working Boy,

• Web browser?

  Probably some Spyglass/Mosaic derivative. There have been a number of embedded platforms built up using that.

• USB.

  Well, the code is coming along. Take a look at the web site. Linux-USB.org

• As for the GPL, it implies that they have to offer to provide a copy of the source code to all GPLed code that they provide.

  This is probably most economically done by sticking a source code TARBALL on the CD that comes with the product.

  They don't have to redistribute the source code to Spyglass Mosaic, if that's what they use as the web browser, and so long as it runs as a separate process.

  They may have to include sources to customizations to GPLed or LGPLed libraries; this does not mandate releasing source code to applications that aren't linked to GPLed code.

  In short, if there's a 660MB CD in the box, it won't likely hurt too much if they drop a couple tarballs in that occupy 50MB of it. Alternatively, they may take the approach Tivo did, and offer to send out a CD with relevant source code for a relatively nominal cost.

Nope. Check out Tivo's Privacy Promise for more info. 3 bullet points that basically say that no one outside your home (not even Tivo) will know your personal viewing info. They do collect 'anonymous' info (at the zip code level, no more specific IIRC), but you can request that they not include you in that data by calling a toll-free number.

I have no television for this very reason. I will not pay for those programs by sacrificing my mind to trivialized sound-bytes and deceptive adverts.

Apart from paying for premium cable channels, which show uninterupted programs, you can buy a VCR (or a tivo) and tape the shows you want to watch. Most modern VCR's will skip over commercials so you will never see them.

Look here if you don't believe me.

Anyone interested in purchasing a TIVO, I know of four different rebates out there.

1) $100 christmas rebate. Buy unit between dec 15 and dec 31 and you qualify!

2) $100 DirecTV rebate. You have DirecTV? Then you get $100 back.

3) Referral. $50 for you, $50 for existing customer. Anyone want me to refer them, send me (steven-tivorebate@evatt.com) some email and we can each make $50!

4) $20 rebate if you get the lifetime membership. I didn't do this, so I don't know the details. Check out www.tivo.com for more info.

I don't know about all the rebates, but I do know that the Christmas rebate can be used with any other rebate with upto $500 in total rebates.

I love the TIVO and would highly suggest it to anyone with a dish or more than basic cable.

Quack

From How TiVo Works:

You purchase the Personal TV Receiver and sign up to receive the TiVo Personal TV Service.

So you need to sign up for something other than just a data feed so this thing can be used. A bit further down:

The Service works by making a nightly phone call to get the up-to-date program information it needs to function.

No mention of other ways you can obtain this information. It would be nicer if it could be collected from the signal stream (character recognition on the "upcoming shows" advertisements + AI = nice). It does say that the number called is toll-free, and if you pick up then it drops the connection and tries again later. "[the] daily phone calls generally last less than 5 minutes and happen at random times - usually at night". It still works without the phone connection, but only as a manual recorder (same as a VCR).

Oh no, we're in Buzzword[TM] land here. Season Passes[TM], Now Showing[TM], TiVo Suggestions[TM], TiVolution Magazine[TM], Thumbs Up[TM] and Thumbs Down[TM]. The gist being that these are things that let the system "suggest new shows that you might want to watch" and "keep you up-to-date on the latest movies and best programs from television's biggest networks".

At least "you can watch a pre-recorded show while recording a live broadcast. You can also split the video signal input to your television so that one program can be recorded while you're watching a different channel". That's fairly standard VCR fair though.

The different recording options are answered quite well "the receiver uses the MPEG II compression system that allows a range of video quality settings" and "the drive in the 14 hour receiver is 13.6 GB and in the 30 receiver is 27.2 GB".

As for long term storage, you can attach a VCR to the output and backup to that, but there's no built in VCR or Recordable DVD (drool). They explain "TiVo uses a special file system that prevents you from being able to transfer the digital data from the Personal TV receiver to a PC". The reasoning is partially FUD "This feature is intended to prevent the fragmentation and file corruption that can occur in commercial file systems..." followed by honesty "...and to protect the copyrights of the network broadcasters and content providers".

They claim to protect your privacy too: "Unlike personalized Internet services, TiVo does not require any information to be sent back. All the intelligence is contained within the receiver, assuring complete privacy to you".

But enough pasting the interesting bits, go read the FAQ yourself.

I'll be buying one of these about when they provide an Australian toll free number and programming information!

From How TiVo Works:

You purchase the Personal TV Receiver and sign up to receive the TiVo Personal TV Service.

So you need to sign up for something other than just a data feed so this thing can be used. A bit further down:

The Service works by making a nightly phone call to get the up-to-date program information it needs to function.

No mention of other ways you can obtain this information. It would be nicer if it could be collected from the signal stream (character recognition on the "upcoming shows" advertisements + AI = nice). It does say that the number called is toll-free, and if you pick up then it drops the connection and tries again later. "[the] daily phone calls generally last less than 5 minutes and happen at random times - usually at night". It still works without the phone connection, but only as a manual recorder (same as a VCR).

Oh no, we're in Buzzword[TM] land here. Season Passes[TM], Now Showing[TM], TiVo Suggestions[TM], TiVolution Magazine[TM], Thumbs Up[TM] and Thumbs Down[TM]. The gist being that these are things that let the system "suggest new shows that you might want to watch" and "keep you up-to-date on the latest movies and best programs from television's biggest networks".

At least "you can watch a pre-recorded show while recording a live broadcast. You can also split the video signal input to your television so that one program can be recorded while you're watching a different channel". That's fairly standard VCR fair though.

The different recording options are answered quite well "the receiver uses the MPEG II compression system that allows a range of video quality settings" and "the drive in the 14 hour receiver is 13.6 GB and in the 30 receiver is 27.2 GB".

As for long term storage, you can attach a VCR to the output and backup to that, but there's no built in VCR or Recordable DVD (drool). They explain "TiVo uses a special file system that prevents you from being able to transfer the digital data from the Personal TV receiver to a PC". The reasoning is partially FUD "This feature is intended to prevent the fragmentation and file corruption that can occur in commercial file systems..." followed by honesty "...and to protect the copyrights of the network broadcasters and content providers".

They claim to protect your privacy too: "Unlike personalized Internet services, TiVo does not require any information to be sent back. All the intelligence is contained within the receiver, assuring complete privacy to you".

But enough pasting the interesting bits, go read the FAQ yourself.

I'll be buying one of these about when they provide an Australian toll free number and programming information!

Well, now someone with the TIVO remote control has to create a configuration file for the Linux Infrared Remote Control program.

I've already got an appliance that runs on linux.. My Tivo! Yay tivo, the best gadget to come around in *years*. And they told us the VCR would be revolutionary..

Quoting from the URL above:

What is the operating system for TiVo?
TiVo uses the Linux OS. The modified source is available under the GNU public license at www.TiVo.com/linux.

Ahh yes, but they also provide their modified kernels, along with the toolchain set and some misc commands at www.tivo.com/linux. No need to buy a CD. I don't know if they've always had this page.

[space considerations preclude listing all the myriad of companies raking in the bucks by using embedded Linux, the mp3 appliance market is a prime example]

But, isn't there somebody out there in the development world who thinks that an OS like Linux, with the quality of Linux, could be developed for the layperson?

Somebody has. They're called TiVo . :-)

Seriously, though -- it's an interesting question. IMHO, Linux will get more suited for the consumer desktop when one of two things happen:

• Someone gets annoyed at the lack of a truly newbie-friendly Linux and voluntarily hacks one out. Probability: highly unlikely, as the people who are most likely to find this annoying (non-technical newbies) are also the least likely to be able to do anything about it! How many users in the mass-market do you think come equipped with programming skills, or are willing to learn said skills just to get their OS to work better?
• Someone finds it's in their economic interest for a newbie-friendly Linux to exist, so they develop it. Probability: unlikely (though more likely than the first option), because nobody will make a killing selling desktop Linux until the applications are there to make switching from Windoze worthwhile -- and application developers won't come until the user base is large enough to make it worth THEIR while. Classic chicken-and-egg quandary. (It's possible the release of StarOffice may get things started here, though.)

I would say that the best prospects for a consumer-friendly Linux aren't in the realm of general-purpose computing, but rather in specialized devices like the TiVo, where consumers are going to expect a crash-free user experience, and you can expect once you get the device configured nobody's going to tinker with it. (Good luck building a crash-free appliance around WinCE!) Which is actually probably good news for Linux, since there'll probably be more growth in demand for these devices in the next several years than there will be for desktop PCs anyway...

Linux still does this, however many pieces (i.e. the filesystem) cannot be removed. In fact, if we removed all the stuff we don't need there'd be almost nothing left. We don't need SMP support. We don't need a filesystem. We don't need security. We don't need virtual memory. We don't even want preemptive multitasking (our product uses cooperative tasking). The problem with Linux is that it's difficult to remove these pieces, since thing like the filesystem, virtual memory, and preemptive multitasking are integral to the operating system.

Linux was not designed to be a RTOS. A RTOS does not necessarily make the OS good for general purpose operation. I mean, a network switch, router, toaster, etc. has far different requirements than a PC. Real-time operating systems are more than just special scheduling. Often they're designed to be quite compact and have extremely modular functionality. They run in things like your VCR, DVD player, router, intelligent hub, palm pilet, etc. They are designed for very tight memory constraints. Some operating systems are very primitive, such as what runs in a VCR or your keyboard.

In our environment, for example, without all the things listed above, we use a unified memory space. All processes share the same memory space. We don't care about virtual memory since if a process dies it's probably catastrophic since most of the processes are interdependent.

In our product, a real-time process is often more like a TSR in that it is event driven and communicates with other processes via events.

Granted, there are places where Linux can work quite nicely, for example tivo, which, I must add, is a really cool product (and they'll burn a Linux CD with their kernel modifications upon request). But that's a different ballgame where a filesystem is important.

This Tivo looks *really* cool, to start off with. But doesn't it look a whole lot like webtv? Does anyone else think it strange that Sony and Phillips teamed up orignally to produce WebTV ( old news) and then sold off the product to Microsoft when it was failing? Now Sony has partnered with Tivo to produce a Television application that actually seems pretty useful, and that will maybe compete with WebTV in the future? Did anyone notice that Phillips is again involved in this venture (Phillips personal Receiver).

My guess is that Sony (in selling webtv to Microsoft) has a deal with Microsoft that disallows them from manufacturing tv-web appliances for X number of years or altogether. Maybe Sony has a few tricks up it's sleeves.

Joseph Elwell.

Here's their statement on privacy:
http://www.tivo.com/care/privacy.html

As I understand the pitch, TiVo is entirely client-side unless you "give your consent". (Troubling question: how is this determined? Opt-out? Fine print bundled with some 'incentive'?) But assuming they keep that part above board, they really appear to understand the privacy concerns of savvy consumers. The best way to reassure me that my private habits won't be monitored is to store that information in my home where it is inaccessible to corporate tentacles.

I am concerned, though, that they'll seduce you into giving consent unwittingly one way or another. Lots of online companies already do this. With all the people who have access to your profile these days, it's tough to finger any one corporate entity as the one that's reneging on privacy aggreements. Something to be wary of while you're using your cool new TiVo :)

They ought to do well if they maintain this sort of respect for the citizen. I can just imagine how this could turn TV on its head. The networks and even cable have based their entire model on the premise that they can sell advertising all day long. But with the introduction of this sort of device, a consumer can watch TV at any time of the day and still only watch the handful of shows that really are worth watching. Result: advertising can really only be sold for quality shows, since nobody will be watching the crap that's on at 2:30am or 1 in the afternoon any longer.

-konstant

Tivo one of those new MPEG2 recorders like ReplayTV uses Linux exclusively, has anyone found out when they are going to be releasing their changes to the Kernel? Paul. ---

In short, it'll hook to a LOT of stuff.

Now what I'd like to see is a box that will hook to every source I can feed it (antennas, cable, DBS systems, BUDs, and so on) that will put it all together and give me one MASSIVE guide and handle all the input switching. Such a thing would need to be able to learn the details about every source, so it's not particularly easy to make at this point.

Did any of you bother to actually read the policy statement at TiVo before trying to brand them?
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TiVo's box won't work without the service. Period. End of story.

But the big difference here, and the reason that, so far, TiVo is actually the good guy of the two, is that they're disclosing their plans and offering opt out

I corrected your opt-out assertion above; read the privacy policy again.

Where'd you hear that? Is it on their website? Have they made public, bindable statements to that effect?

They've made public statements to the media on at least one occasion (a Wired article). I could go dig out the references if you'd like. IANAL, so I don't know about bindable. (I doubt anything posted on a website is bindable.) That is certainly not their intent, AFAICT.

Until they do, they can do whatever they want. At least TiVo has a very comprehensive privacy policy out there for all to see, and also has opt-out available.

Bzzt. Thanks for playing. TiVo's opt-out is for lots of extra information. They will always be collecting what stuff you watch and how you watch it. Go read the TiVo privacy policy again, specifically part 3 that starts with "Other than as described above..."

Haven't seen anything at all from Replay about privacy.

I agree that Replay should post a policy.