Digital VCRs

Re:Linux and Video by Natty · 1999-06-12 07:24 · Score: 1

Yes. I really think Linux must suck now! Four anonymous posters have all said it, so it must be true! Right , right? Hmmmmmm . . to make linux look bad Anonymous Cowards have to lie. In contrast, finding all of NT's bad points is an honest, full-time occupation. Now if someone could find a real downfall of linux compared to Windows XX, that would be intresting.

Re:What hardware/software does it use? by EddyGL · 1999-06-12 07:26 · Score: 1

The Hauppage WinTV PCI card works for a simple live feed, and I assume with proper software you could do MPEG-2 recording.. but it's not in hardware.
Besides the driver is included right in the Linux Kernel ( the bttv driver ) thanks to Alan Cox :-). Just need a program to display the video, like Xawtv, etc.. search freshmeat.net for em lots out there..

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:27 · Score: 0

I'd be curious to find out what they are. I haven't really seen any WinCE appliences other than PDAs so far. Who's producing them? And what's the premium you pay from just having a plain old mechanical appliance?

-hitchhiker

I've got a *GREAT* idea! by MuppetBoy · 1999-06-13 01:52 · Score: 1

DON'T buy a new VCR and, better yet... TURN OFF YOUR TV! there's nothing "cool" about being another faceless and willing victim of consumer culture/advertising. there is life beyond the cable box and you don't need a better way to watch floods of corporate advertising.

INSTEAD... make Linus proud of you... go hack on Linux!

Re:I've got a *GREAT* idea! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 03:36 · Score: 0

Actually, if I bought this, it would be to record the good movies that are usually only broadcast late at night (everything at PrimeTime is sooo censored, it isn't even worth considering).

Also, wut da heck, I'll mention that most computer shows are on at inconvenient times 'round here. Certainly would be nice to move them to a more acceptable time.

With the first point, only the TiVo can do what I need (if you're watching a movie, then you probably want a decent picture, huh?). For the second one, a VCR would do, but hey, you already got a TiVo for #1 right? These are probably good reasons to own one...

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Zurk · 1999-06-13 01:52 · Score: 1

try a palmpilot. instant on, handwriting recognition, touch screen, palmOS or linux. beautiful. oh..and did i mention wireless networking/web browsing and email + irda + serial connectivity ? oh and free development tools/compilers and emulators.

Phone line. Is it really required? by Mickey+Jameson · 1999-06-13 01:53 · Score: 1

I saw no mention of "phone line" in any thread, so this poses a serious question:
Does the box really require a phone line? The text in the article said it needed a phone line to download program information. Is this really necessary? Couldn't I just tell the box to "save everything on Fox (channel 6 here) on Tuesdays at 7:30pm to 8:00pm"???
I do that with my VCR now without needing a phone line because I know what's on and know how to program my VCR. So will the TiVo box not work if I don't plug a phone cord into it regardless of the fact I know exactly when a program is on?

Re:Phone line. Is it really required? by Junta · 1999-06-13 03:37 · Score: 1

It says it is only optional, basically making it possible to have a service like prevue guide or something more interactive.... at least that's what I thought

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Re:Phone line. Is it really required? by bollar · 1999-06-13 03:51 · Score: 1

If the TiVo is not connected to a phone line, it will basically function as a VCR -- you can enter the time and channel and it will record what you specify.

However, if you are connected to a phone line, you can use TiVo's other features -- have it record a show whenever it's on, for example.

Re:Law of Supp/Demand by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 11:34 · Score: 1

PhD/MBA or MSCE? From the spelling and grammar here and elsewhere in this thread, I would say the latter, rather than the former...if not, how about a bit of proof? After all, to get your presumptive Phd, you had to submit yourself to 'rigorous peer and academic review' and publish.

At least tell us what college you teach at (or the 'brain-trust' you work for) so we can send it in to US News in time for the B-school ratings.

You have to check Linux Media Labs! by Eg0r · 1999-06-13 01:57 · Score: 1

I don't really know what you are after, but those guys are really doing something for the Linux community. their stuff has opensourced drivers because... that's what they had in mind when they built the board...

Check-out the specs!

Parameters: CCIR and square resolution - 720x480 NTSC 60 fps, 720x576 PAL 50 fps Motion JPEG compression and decompression in hardware - ZR36060 chip Compression rates 3.5 - 30 Maximum JPEG image size 768x32768 Video stream DMA transfer into video board memory or RAM - allows for video in a window Composite and S-Video analog input/output
Possible Applications: Internet-Video Production WEB-cam Home and semi-professional video editing Video conferencing Remote security monitoring

And a picture

I hope you guys succed!

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--
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante

Re:You have to check Linux Media Labs! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 03:10 · Score: 0

For crying out loud! Look at the price man! The Rainbow Runner for Matrox cards has the identical chips, and runs at $150. For $410 I'd expect a MINIMUM of MPEG-1 hardware compression with audio.
Re:You have to check Linux Media Labs! by Eg0r · 1999-06-13 04:16 · Score: 1

For $410 I'd expect a MINIMUM of MPEG-1 hardware compression with audio
mmhh... obviously YMMV :-)
I need mjpeg compression because I need to grab a video sequence with little or no compression, neither spacial nor temporal.
The aim of the game is to be able to stream a video sequence let's say with no compression, to do some processing on each image, and eventually to recombine the images back either in mjpeg or mpeg2.
I am not interested in sound... but what is the problem in using a separate sound card?

---

--
"Hasta la victoria siempre!" El Comandante
Re:You have to check Linux Media Labs! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 09:52 · Score: 0

I have a Matrox Rainbow Runner. Does MJPEG compression. Bummer thing is, on LOOOONG stretches of capture (15 minutes) audio and video get up to a full second out of sync. The only answers I've seen are some stuff about frame rate not being exactly 29.97 fps, etc... I figure with audio integrated, you'd for sure have the a/v synchronized.

And for MPEG-1, the audio is Layer (1-2-3) compressed. You'd want the audio compressed real-time as well as the video, right?

Re:Who is moderating?-->We are! by matty · 1999-06-12 11:37 · Score: 1

The readers of Slashdot are the moderators. And why are all the earlier posts moderated down? Because none of them makes any sort of intelligent statement about Linux's shortcomings (of which there are many, admittedly. Stability isn't one of them, though, something no MS operating system can claim).

Basically, all the earlier pro-WinCE posts say, "WinCE runs on this certain proprietary device (the specs of which are totally secret) and Linux doesn't run on it so it sux." These are hardly intelligent comments, and are therefore worthy of being moderated down. This being a predominantly pro-Linux site, most of the readers dislike MS, therefore MS-bashing doesn't (generally) get moderated down. Get over it, or (better yet) just don't read Slashdot (no one will miss you). Life isn't fair, if it were, the least stable, least intelligently designed, least efficient OS wouldn't dominate the desktop.

I realize you're just a Troll, but even you have to admit that, if the specs for this hardware were public, Linux could do at least as good a job as WinCE on the device. And it would do it without billions in MS research dollars.

Cheers,
Matthew

Re:What model has the Best Comercial Skip??? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:59 · Score: 0

I have a ProScan with "Commercial Advance" and I've only seen it fail maybe ten times in the couple years I've owned it. Having owned it, I would NOT every buy a VCR without it. I am getting TiVo though...

Blue screen? not here by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 02:01 · Score: 0

Funny, for all the headaches that Win95 has caused me, I've never actually gotten the blue screen of death. MS did something right here. Now, it still locks up from time to time, but at least it doesn't go sky high because of a segfault.

Now, Linux isn't hard to bring down either, as demonstrated by this short program:

#include
main() {
for (;;)
fork();
}

Try killing this runaway process...

$ ps
No more processes available.
$ killall mad_forker
No more processes available.
$ killall bach
No more processes available.
$ @#$%@*#)*!!!!!

Goodbye Linux, time to reach for that reset button.

Re:Blue screen? not here by Zurk · 1999-06-13 07:03 · Score: 1

hmm..cant you set fork limits ? i thought most unixes allowed fork limits and inetd could prevent unlimited forking from user programs. i've done some testing on irix and this can be prevented easily (at least on irix).

Re:why this won't always work by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:44 · Score: 1

there's the little dude in the vcr...

Re: We do the same thing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:44 · Score: 0

yeah we do that on windowsNT at our production studio as well. It's quite easy. We can do a 2 hour movie in under 20 minutes after its initial recording.

Re:Law of Supp/Demand by sjames · 1999-06-13 02:04 · Score: 1

Re: 4. The point is, in the embedded systems world, the consumer neither knows or cares what OS is running on an appliance.

For example, what OS is your VCR running? Do you care?

Since very few consumers of home appliances know or care what's running, the real consumer of the OS is the appliance manufacturer. That is where the decisions are made.

The manufacturer will naturally consider the license fee per unit (which in the under $200 appliance market is VERY important) and the opinions of the engineers who will have to implement the software (how long will it take, at what cost, etc...).

Since Linux is FREE (as in beer as well as in freedom), it's down to the engineers opinion. Engineers tend to prefer a flavor of unix (or something unix-esque like VxWorks and QNX) over WinCE. To a software engineer, the ability to alter the OS is a strong attraction indeed.

Conclusion, the real consumer of the OS is embedded systems engineers, and Linux has allways had a strong following with engineers.

Re:Put the technology on a card please by Zurk · 1999-06-13 02:05 · Score: 1

i second that. are you guys at tivo reading this
?? It would be kewl to have it ported to x86 machines or even alpha processors. PowerPC's tend to suck rocks since their architecture is less well known than x86 or alpha architecture, IMHO. Of course there are prolly some ppl out there comfotable with PPC motherboards and processors...

Re:Video Editing by matty · 1999-06-12 11:51 · Score: 1

MS NT at that.

Umm...is there another kind of NT............?

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Zurk · 1999-06-13 02:09 · Score: 1

err...the majority of those who buy the box initially are the ppl who're going to tear it apart and see whats inside. besides, its kewl to have your VCR give you a login: prompt, IMHO :)

Re:Video Editing is easy. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:56 · Score: 0

We dumped all of our SGIs in favor of NT. We now do what the SGIs did at a fraction of the cost. And the NT boxes ( Alphas ) seem to do it much better. Our Video lab production artists were so much happier when we moved to NT because of it's easy of use + the digital video editing software was also easier to use which speed up production.

Video Interactive Inc.

Re:I do hahahaha by dirty · 1999-06-12 11:57 · Score: 1

Well there is a HOWTO on doing load ballencing. Linux has supported this for many years. As for the beauties of WinCE, the thought of my toaster bsod'ing scares the hell out of me. "Toast Protection Fault: About, Retry, Burn"

--

-matt

Re:One disadvantage (Real Time) by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 02:14 · Score: 0

Actually, I asked for a reason.

Believe it or not, standard PCs are NOT real time. Unix isn't RT. (One exception (IIRC), Modcomp)

Frankly the reason real time apps were required was because computer were relatively slow (and expensive). Nowadays, if a computer can keep up with the input load, there no reason to worry if the computer is RT or now. (The trick to RT computers is that they can keep up even when they're under heavy load....they simply lose interrupts).

Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt! Sorry, please try again by Speed+Racer · 1999-06-12 11:58 · Score: 1

Apatch(sic) just to do MLPPP? how lame. That comes stock with win9x.

It didn't appear until OSR2 and that wasn't a user upgradable release so Win98 is the first Win9x variant with the ability to have more than one IP address per machine.

--
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by umoto · 1999-06-12 12:03 · Score: 1

Oh, hi Mr. Gates! Glad to see you're getting out more. I have to warn you though--if you're not careful with the /. folk, a few weekend engineers will get together and write a Windows CE virus that could be transmitted via IR. Then they'd set up a pulsing infrared laser a block away from your mansion and reflect the beam off your bathroom mirror to give you quite a surprise next time you're ready to relax in your hot tub.

(I wouldn't put it past the MIT hackers!)

struct OnTopicComment {
This Tivo thing looks for real. It appears the privacy rumors have no basis in reality. Also, it sounds like the difficult part was indeed the hard drive rather than the MPEG2. Think about it--all the while you're watching delayed TV, a normal HD would have to jump between two positions very rapidly. Most HD's can't take that kind of stress for very long! So $500 sounds like a very decent price. The only thing I would ask for is a way to expand it so I could copy shows elsewhere or add a Jaz drive.
};

Re:Video Editing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 12:06 · Score: 0

If you want video editing software for linux then write it YOU FUCKING DUMB ASS (I'm cool I used the word fuck, in all caps at that)

Re:I do hahahaha by nufan · 1999-06-12 07:34 · Score: 1

You're telling me 4 phone lines + 29.95 is economically viable compared to ISDN or ADSL? In Austin ADSL is ~40/mo from SWB plus 20-30/mo from any of several ISP's. Cable is even cheaper - 50/mo flat. Your setup aint quite so sweet as you seem to think.

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:36 · Score: 0

Prepare to get boiled when your hot tub GPFs ;)

Re:What hardware/software does it use? by topham · 1999-06-12 07:40 · Score: 1

Mpeg2 in software? Doubt it.

It is my understanding that doing Mpeg2 in hardware fast enough isn't even easy, although I shall assume it has become easy enough to do it in hardware and sell a box for $500.

They only have 1 resolution to worry about, so the specific chipset they use wouldn't have to be all that flexable either.

Sore Spot in Microsoft World by SloWave · 1999-06-12 07:53 · Score: 1

This article hit a real nerve in the MS Universe. Seems that a bunch of MSAC's see Linux as a real threat to the Windows CE market. This tells me that there are some real business opportunities for embedded Linux in controller type applications. Linux is probably already more real-time compatable then Windows CE will ever be.

Re:Sore Spot in Microsoft World by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-13 03:07 · Score: 1

RE: "...MS has invested over 10^9 $$$ into this technology to make sure WinCE keeps the market...."

Let's see, 10^9=1,000,000,000 or 1 billion (with a /B/) dollars...the last I checked MicroSoft's corporate annual and quarterly 10-Q's and reports, the /most/ I saw dedicated to the new RT and embedded technologies (including their panic-stricken attempts to hi-jack the markets for Jini, JNI, EDI and E-commerce) was on the order of 2.4 million. Their marketing and partnering efforts (from their last 10-Q) can realistically be estimated at between 20 and 30 million. Therefore, at the outside the figure is 50 million (with an M), approximately 1/20th of your claimed outlays to "make sure WinCE keeps the market..." They've spent /far/ more developing DirectX and the game interfaces than they have incorporating wanted features into their products to compete in these new markets. That is because in essence, their /real/ competitors are not *nix and Sun, but Nintendo and Sega.

The market for WinCE devices will cool when MicroSoft begins to do the same to the RT/Net appliance startups as they did to the ISV's and boxshops: gouge them by changing the licensing agreements. Additionally, Microsoft, thanks to DOJ, is now more widely known to be the rapacious and unethical company those of us in the industry always experienced in our dealings with them. A startup will weight all this with the fact that there are now alternatives in the market to WinCE (remember, its been 5 years since WinCE 1.x was released and only 1 since the OSS community has been on most people's radar screens.).

However, this is only /one/ device of the many that are on the drawing boards using alternatives to MicroSoft products. The real /panic/ in Redmond will start when Sega, Nintendo, and others begin releasing game machines using non-MicroSoft OS's and outperforming them in their real market (even on NT): GAMES!

BTW, where did you say you got your graduate degree?
Re:Sore Spot in Microsoft World by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:37 · Score: 0

A friend of mine who works at MSR has been telling me of morale problems over in certain MS (not just MSR) groups about having their hands tied wrt to flexibility in deploying some of the more interesting technology, such as CE. He believes that market dominance by systems w/ source such as GNU/Linux is only a matter of time. He just wants to ride the gravy train a little longer and then bail out. I hope he doesn't rely too much on his stock options, though. :)

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by Glith · 1999-06-12 07:53 · Score: 1

They must give out free samples to employees

Re:Sore .......BS by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:07 · Score: 0

If that is so then why are there not even 1/16 as many embedded systems as there are for WindowsCE? http://www.vadem.com/clio/ I don't see anything like that running Linux... why not.

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by zztzed · 1999-06-12 08:09 · Score: 1

coughcoughastroturfcoughcough

Re:Video Editing is easy. by Zurk · 1999-06-13 02:14 · Score: 1

if youve ever written anything like an OS -- its real *hard* to do. its easier to take a mainstream RTOS (RTLinux, wincrap, OS/9, QNX, whatever) and extend it than write your own.

Re:Windows CE still has many advantages by Zurk · 1999-06-13 02:16 · Score: 1

actually PalmOS is a better choice. You can get the OS for it with source, it has a fine GUI, great development tools and loads of enthusiastic programmers/developers/hobbyists..and its based on an RTOS which has full multitasking.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-13 02:31 · Score: 1

RE: "...but I can't veiw my Word docs in it or what ever..."

Check out StarOffice 5.1 and KOffice (the Gnome project Office Suite RSN!). They have created filters that allow you to see all but the latest Microsoft Office (Office 2000) formatted docs/apps and run the macros (including, with a little work in StarOffice, Access).

Of course, you could /always/ share Office apps by using .html, .rtf, and .pdf, but some people just don't take the time to learn the tools they are using.

Linux video editing, was: Star Trek on CDs by matty · 1999-06-12 12:08 · Score: 1

1.) Notice: an anti-Linux statement that got moderated up, not down.

2.) You're right: it would be great to have all the same applications for Linux that are available for Windows, or even the Mac. Keep in mind that Windows began life as the OS on the IBM PC, meaning it had a fast-running start 18 years ago! Less than a year ago, practically no one had even heard of Linux, except us propeller-heads. (I'm sure you hadn't heard of Linux, or Slashdot, a year ago.) Give it another year or two, then notice the flood of applications coming out for Linux.

3.) While your comment that general consumer applications for Linux are scarce is correct, your implication that this means Linux is 'stupid' is wrong. Lack of applications doesn't indicate an inherant problem with the OS, just that it doesn't (currently) serve your particular needs. Use Windows if it serves your needs/wants. I use both: Linux for web-browsing/email/gateway/mail server/file server/samba server/print server/CivCTP (try that with Windows, at least without spending at least $1000 for NT Server), Windows98 for Descent 2/Starcraft/Free Agent (I still haven't found an equivalent for Free Agent for Linux, any suggestions anyone?)

Re:What hardware/software does it use? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 02:45 · Score: 1

You must be trying that without any compression. I know on my Matrox Rainbow Runner card, I can dump compressed at 29.97 (NTSC) fps. And that's at full resolution quality (don't remember the exact resolution, something _like_ 640x480). Of course, if you turn off the compression, you're toast. That's why I like MPEG2 so much... a new HD is easily fast enough for it (Even IDE UDMA stuff will do, no problem).

Of course, record uncompressed, and you are TOAST. Ahhh, when will the wonders of compression cease.

(Just to note, I usually capture at about 352x240, 29.97 fps, 24-bit colour, 4:1 compression, AND still recompres other MJPEG videos to MPEG videos at the same time. And that's on a 64 MB, K6-2 300, with older WD Caviar 6.4 GB HD.) Wooo...

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by jpatters · 1999-06-12 12:09 · Score: 1

I guess my little hint to read their privacy policy didn't help much. But to sum it up, they don't give out any of your personal information without your consent ... I would suggest that you check your facts a little more closely. In fact, I think this entire thread should be marked down because of its irresponsible accusations!

I did read the privacy policy. I also know that they are using the profiling capability of the machine to target certain adds to certain users. I surmise that the way they are doing this is by encoding some extra info in the adds that are broadcast, and, by using this info, the box is smart enough to know which adds to keep, based on your profile. It must keep an archive of targeted adds on the hard drive to show to you over and over again. Note that all of this is possible within the confines of their "privacy policy". The replaytv box not only doesn't do the profiling, but they are nice enough to include a handy thirty second skip feature, so you can easily avoid the adds. Also, once you buy the box, they don't charge for their service.

Now for a REAL irresponsible accusation: if tivo wanted to avoid criticism of their equipment on slashdot, the best thing they could possibly do, whenever the tivo vs. replaytv topic came up, is to have someone make bumbling and stupid anonymous postings claiming that Linux is stupid and WinCE is the future.

--
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."

Re:appropriate name for the device? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 02:48 · Score: 0

VCR? What's that? I thought they should have used VTR...

Linux may be ideal... by LinuxGeek · 1999-06-12 05:53 · Score: 1

for this type of application. Open and free source with excellent development tools. Much cheaper than the embedded windows family.

--

Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain

Re:Linux may be ideal... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:24 · Score: 0

What excellent development tools?

The quality of development tools is severely lacking on non-Windows platforms.

Re:serial ...... uhhh okay by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 12:11 · Score: 0

Not in my copy, troll-boy...

Re:why this won't always work by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 03:00 · Score: 0

You could use a copy of popular electronics, where they went to great pains to describe the workings of this VCR to the public. The way the device works IRL is like this. Have you ever noticed that the screen goes totally black between commercials and the real show, even if just for a moment? The VCR picks up on that and assumes a commercial is starting/ending. This is why during dark scenes, these VCRs tend to think comercials have just begun, and skip/blue screen. It'll also look for the time between dark screens (Most commercial breaks are about 3 minutes or so).

I've heard more stereo commercial recordings than TV shows (do you think mash/star trek/i dream of jeanie/etc... were done in stereo?). Stereo/mono just wouldn't work for the people who like to watch "retro" stuff. Perhaps a loudness meter would help, though (commercials tend to be full of loud, boomy, bangy music and people who think they need to scream to sell their warez (DO THE DEW!)).

Linux kernel changes? by Jeff+Lightfoot · 1999-06-12 05:56 · Score: 1

I wonder if they made any changes to the Linux kernel specifically for this product. If so, anyone know where to get the patches?

Re:Linux kernel changes? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 06:18 · Score: 0

its a proprietary kernel module linked in..and no, you cant get the source. runs on PPC architecture.

Re:Linux and Video by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 03:06 · Score: 0

That's pretty shitty. On my win 9x box that had a ATI Mach 64, and a Cyrix P150+ processor, I could get film (24 fps) quality. On my freind's S3 Virge /w P75 he could get full NTSC 30 fps.

Sorry, but for video playback, hardware has it in the bag. I don't care what you use (windoze, BeOS, etc...) if you can't get hardware MPEG acelleration, you are screwed. I can't even get 15 fps on my MATROX G200 on a K6-2 300 Mhz running Linux and MpegTV because there is ZERO hardware accelleration. On windows, where hardware accelleration is supported, I can browse the web, compress MP3s, and watch a 30 fps movie, without noticeable slowdown.

Re:MPEG hardware... by Pudding · 1999-06-12 12:14 · Score: 1

>Does anyone know of ANY video hardware supported
>under Linux that supports any sort of medium to
>high bitrate video codecs? Any hardware that can
>do MPEG2? Or software?

I'm quite interested in the Tivo boxes, but more from the hardware point of view.

We're developing a centralised media recording-centre for recording multiple channels of TV and radio onto a large server. So far we've been thinking MJPEG with the Linux Media Labs card, which runs only on Linux. But still we would have to build our own TV-tuner set.

Hopefully some of the technology that the Tivo guys are using can become accessible for the rest of us as well. If I have some luck, this could happen, and it would be so perfect.

Controlling "The Dish" by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 05:56 · Score: 2

Thanks to some wheeling and dealing on their part, you can apparently plug these things into the glorified serial ports on most DSS^H^H^HDIRECTV systems. This is actually useful since it lets the box control things without resorting to IR blasters and the like. They can probably ASK the receiver if it successfully landed on channel 401 so you don't miss your favorite porno.

Lots of stuff out there runs Linux. Some companies don't tell you about it, but some probing will reveal the true Penguin Nature hidden within.

Re:Controlling "The Dish" by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 14:34 · Score: 0

I refer you to their FAQ ...
In short, it'll hook to a LOT of stuff.
Now what I'd like to see is a box that will hook to every source I can feed it (antennas, cable, DBS systems, BUDs, and so on) that will put it all together and give me one MASSIVE guide and handle all the input switching. Such a thing would need to be able to learn the details about every source, so it's not particularly easy to make at this point.
Re:Controlling "The Dish" by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:53 · Score: 0

I may be missing something, but I haven't seen any info fron TiVo or ReplayTV regarding their interaction with DSS receivers. Anyone have a URL with this info?

Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Skyshadow · 1999-06-12 05:56 · Score: 2

So, who here really thinks that Windows CE has a prayer in the appliance market?

Simply put, Linux provides a solid foundation without having all the restrictive licensing funkiness from Microsoft. Besides, why pay Redmond a fee per box when you could be using that money to undersell your competition (or, better yet, lining your pockets with it)?

The Cobalt Cube and these set-top boxes are only the beginning. It may not always be superficially recognizable as such, but pretty soon Linux will be living in the homes of everyone in the world who has electricity. Global domination, indeed.

----

--
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.

Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:40 · Score: 0

I've got my car stero running Linux how bout that
Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by BuzCory · 1999-06-12 13:10 · Score: 1

Ah, but DR-DOS can multitask.
Muxh as I like Linux for a lot of things, DR-DOS just might (or might not) be best for such a task.
Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 14:36 · Score: 1

In the near future many of these appliances are going to want to be networked. For the current example it'd be really cool to be able to pull video off of it over a household 100Mbs network. But one can't really do that with a single-tasking OS like DOS...

I wish people would get the facts before bashing DOS. DR-DOS can do TCP/IP networking, and is a multi-tasking OS. Any other non-problems you'd like to make up?

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 07:21 · Score: 0

Linux would be ideal for MP3 players in cars. Who wants their car stereo crashing? or skipping due to low resources?
Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:36 · Score: 1

What's wrong with DR-DOS or FreeDOS? FreeDOS is Free Software, and the source code to DR-DOS is available as well, and both are small and fast. An embedded OS doesn't need a lot of the complexities that make Linux useful for a desktop PC.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Re:Linux: The Ultimate Appliance OS by Audin · 1999-06-12 09:52 · Score: 1

In the near future many of these appliances are going to want to be networked. For the current example it'd be really cool to be able to pull video off of it over a household 100Mbs network. But one can't really do that with a single-tasking OS like DOS...

Re:I do hahahaha by The+Welcome+Rain · 1999-06-12 12:23 · Score: 1

Rather than acting like an elementary school student and going around using gratuitous pejoratives, perhaps you could've actually pointed out a URL of the HOWTO.

Rather than acting like an elementary school teacher and going around patronizing random strangers, perhaps you could have posted such a URL yourself.

From section 6.6 of the NET-3-HOWTO, available to Internet users worldwide:

The EQL device name is `eql'. With the standard kernel source you may have only one EQL device per machine. EQL provides a means of utilizing multiple point to point lines such as PPP, slip or plip as a single logical link to carry tcp/ip. Often it is cheaper to use multiple lower speed lines than to have one high speed line installed.

Kernel Compile Options:
Network device support --->
[*] Network device support
EQL (serial line load balancing) support

To support this mechanism the machine at the other end of the lines must also support EQL. Linux, Livingstone Portmasters and newer dial-in servers support compatible facilities.

To configure EQL you will need the eql tools which are available from:
sunsite.unc.edu
ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/ pub/linux/system/Serial/eql-1.2.tar.gz.

There, see how easy that was?

--

--
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom

Re:Law of Supp/Demand by miracle69 · 1999-06-12 12:30 · Score: 1

1. I do not register my email address on the Internet with any web site.

So make up one. Slashdot doesn't verify your address. You could also get a hotmail address that you never used and let spam mail go there. Just try e-mailing the address I use at this account > devnull@procyon.com. I could've just as easily used bgates@apple.com or anything else I wanted. Spam-bots won't be able to get through to me using this address, but someone clever enough to put my domain name together with a slightly modified /. name will have no problem e-mailing me. Apparently, your higher education didn't actually teach you to think. 'Tis a shame, really.

2. If that were it's true history, then noone would want to use it.

Or, will history show that a monopoly was created and used its power to force people to use an inferior product?

3. I don't use windows, but most of my associates do. I use a Macintosh for most of my work but I will be switching to Windows because of all the nice software that's out for an Economist.

Like spellcheck and grammer check? I've noticed a trend in your postings. M$ software is always LC, whereas other OS's and companies are UC.

4. The number of consumers that want to use a product = demand. Those consumers want to use a name they have herd of (MS Windows). Because of this, the supply will flow into the market place.

A PhD you are not. Your bluff has been called. The number of current Windows users has nothing to do with the demand for toasters with WinCE. You've missed the boat entirely. Perhaps you should write Devry and complain about that degree they gave you.

I really don't see what the big deal is. You guys act like this is some sort of a religion.

Coming from someone who is spouting M$ FUD, I find that statement rather ironic.

Linux 3:16 - OSS just kicked your ass.

--
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.

What hardware/software does it use? by Haight6716 · 1999-06-12 05:57 · Score: 1

Subject says it all. Anyone know what makes this thing tick? I ask because I've been looking for a way to record TV onto my hard-disk (and perhaps cut onto CDROM for archival purposes)? How can I do this in linux? Are there TV cards with good MPEG 2 recording software for linux? What about viewing a TV feed in real-time on my monitor?

I guess this is more like an 'ask slashdot' question..

-=Julian=-

Re:What hardware/software does it use? by teraflop+user · 1999-06-12 06:05 · Score: 1

The article implies that the hard drive is more of a problem than the video IO. I think Alan Cox has a good deal of video stuff under control.

I'm suprised the hard disk is an issue though - I would have thought that enough ram buffers would avoid any difficulties with reading and writing simultaneously.
Re:What hardware/software does it use? by Eccles · 1999-06-12 08:13 · Score: 1

>It is my understanding that doing Mpeg2 in hardware fast enough isn't even easy

The ATI All-in-Wonder 128 does MPEG-2 capture, although as yet ATI hasn't been forthcoming with Linux drivers for any of its products.

--
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
Re:What hardware/software does it use? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:44 · Score: 0

Althought I haven't read indepth details on it, the upcoming Voodoo 3 3500 will have TV in and do MPEG-2 recording as well.
Re:What hardware/software does it use? by whoop · 1999-06-12 06:44 · Score: 1

From what I haven't found for Linux from my searches are MPEG editing utilities, or anything to reformat MPEG1 files into the VideoCD format. I'd love to dump Windows for this stuff, but currently need it to do the AVI->MPEG encoding, strip off a few seconds from the start/end and merge a couple MPEGs, and finally burn the VideoCD.
Re:What hardware/software does it use? by sjames · 1999-06-13 01:06 · Score: 1

I have played around w/ recording video to disk a bit, and the disk definatly IS the problem. The video I/O is nothing since most video capture cards are bus mastering. The software just mmaps the buffers in.

My finding was that a simple bitblt from the capture buffer to a MITSHM buffer on a P233 easily handles full sive/framerate video. As soon as I try to dump to disk, I can only manage ~12 FPS. I suppose switching to a really fast SCSI system could solve that.

What the problem amounts to is that the disk just can't write it out as fast as it comes in. More ram buffers would just make it take a little longer to start dropping frames.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 12:33 · Score: 0

Wow, Why are you windows users out there getting so upset all of a sudden. Linux is just another OS just like Windows. I have gone from CPM to DOS to Windows XX, and then I was fortunet enough to discover UNIX in college about five years ago and I havn't gone back since. I still use Windows because most of the people at my work use Windows NT and it's hard to help them over the phone when I don't know what the hell they are talking about. If you are intersested in computers at all you should give Linux a chance, it's FUN!! If you say but I can't veiw my Word docs in it or what ever then you are missing the point. Don't limit your self!!!

Re:MPEG hardware... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 03:14 · Score: 0

I guess anyone who thought linux sucked at multimedia is proved wrong with this thing, eh? Proof through example!

Example of what? That Linux can work with the shittiest video capture card availiable on today's market? My god man! Have you EVER seen how shitty the Bt848 chip is for video capture? I used to have one, then got a Matrox Rainbow Runner. Holy shit! The difference was the same as the difference in quality between a 35 year old console TV and a 21" computer monitor...

Of course, I'd be running Linux on that machine if it supported decent video capture with even one GOOD video capture card. Even the authors of the Bt848 driver admit the chip is a cheap piece of crap.

appropriate name for the device? by Doviende · 1999-06-12 06:05 · Score: 2

Just a technicallity, but wouldn't such a device be a Video Hard Disk Recorder, or a Video FlashRom Recorder instead of Video Cassette Recorder?

that would be VHDR or VFRR instead of VCR :)

-Doviende

"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."

--
"The value of a man resides in what he gives,
and not in what he is capable of receiving."
--Albert Einstein

Re:appropriate name for the device? by Moofie · 1999-06-13 14:45 · Score: 1

Let's get 'em to stop calling cable modems cable modems, then we'll take a crack at this misnomer. : )

Now before I look like a complete ignoramus (maybe too late), cable modems do not in fact modulate and demodulate an analog signal, do they? I'm 95% certain that they're all digital, but I sure would like it if somebody would loan me a shoehorn for the foot in me mouth if I'm wrong.

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Re:appropriate name for the device? by mistered · 1999-06-13 20:31 · Score: 1

Nope, they've still got analog (RF even!) bits in them. Data being sent to you is probably in some QAM format and demodulated by the cable modem. Your data is likely modulated in QPSK (easier to send back over crappy equipment) so a cable modem really is a modem.

--
Enjoy your job, make lots of money, work within the law. Choose any two.

What I'd like to see... by jpatters · 1999-06-12 12:39 · Score: 1

What I'd like to see is a box that has several tuners so that diferent shows on diferent channels could be recorded at once, and maybe a couple of transmitters so that other sets in the house could request specific programming using an rf remote. Of course the size and speed of the hard drive would have to be top rate to do this, maybe even a RAID, or better yet, instead of a disk, an enourmous amount of RAM. Yeah, that would be cool.

--
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."

Re:MPEG hardware... by razorwire · 1999-06-12 12:50 · Score: 1

A basic MPEG-2 encoder card can currently be had for around $2000. Word is that more affordable (sub-$500) MPEG-2 encoder cards are on their way and should be out be the end of the year. I'm having no luck finding references on this, but Philips has a new low-cost single-chip encoder (the SAA6750H) that's supposed to find its way onto these cards. These chips weigh in at about US$40 (in lots of 100,000) so that may give a good idea of the cost of the final product.
--

Can I have one too please? by Jonas+�berg · 1999-06-12 06:06 · Score: 2

This sounds like an environment where Linux can be a really nice thing. Imaging being able to debug your VCR if it crashes! I've never had much success debuging a normal VCR.

I've read about Sony using a modified gcc with some added targets to compile code for their game machines so it's not that surprising though that free software is taken into the world of embedded system.

Often, when developing an embedded system, you can spend weeks or months just building the first stages of an embedded system that can support some application. If you instead choose to port the Linux kernel or make gcc able to compile native code for the CPU of your choice, they you have already gained several months of development.

Unfortunately, I have been in the situation recently where I have had to deal with Windows CE and I can say for a fact that I didn't very much like the experience. I'd honestly rather spend some time porting gcc so I can compile native code.

How would you feel about readline support on your remote control? Alan Cox recently wrote in his diary that he couldn't believe how Unix vendors can ship ancient shells without cursor control or job control with their systems. Well, I can't believe my stereo remote control still won't let me schedule playlists!

Re:Can I have one too please? by alhaz · 1999-06-12 08:21 · Score: 1

Readline support on my remote controll? Sheesh, I'd rather walk over to my computer and type in a playlist from there. Trust me, I've used ir remotes that let the user punch in alphanumerics, it's an exceptionally crude way of entering data.

However, given a flexible music librarian system, it would be great to be able to select category groups by remote controll. Say you could select what genere of music, and then what era, and hit play. Wouldn't that be a lot easier than manually selecting a dozen tracks?

--
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
Re:Can I have one too please? by Fiddy · 1999-06-12 10:36 · Score: 1

Just out of curiosity how often does your normal VCR crash that you need to worry about debugging it?? I don't think any of mine have ever done that... Unless of course it's a hardware problem and even Linux doesn't fix that ;)
Re:Can I have one too please? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:03 · Score: 0

Actually, gcc is fairly common for that type of imbedded system. I know that many of the new cable boxes (such as those used with video on demand services) use gnu tools for compiling.

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by Bullwinkle · 1999-06-12 12:51 · Score: 4

Humm.

I have read most of the posts since folks on Slashdot first started praising and bashing us. I have found that responsible poster just ask before they flame!

For the record, TiVo does not upload any information about you or the shows you watch. All the math is done inside the box. We, along with our partners, are the only PTV company who has no plans for downloading Ads to the box, and we are the only PTV company who has a Privacy Policy in black and white in our manual and on our website.

Now if you have questions about our intentions, just ask, but don't make things up. And yes, TiVo is proud to use Linux at our core.

Richard Bullwinkle
TiVo Webmaster

What hardware does it obsolete? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 06:07 · Score: 0

Hey, all you need to add is editing software, and you've got the Media 100. Now all we need is the Apache module to play the files this thing creates.

Suddenly, not only is every web site a newspaper, but it's also a TV station. Who needs digital TV?
Heck, I'll go to the local businesses to sell ad time, and undercut our very small time-and-minded TV station.

Apple wants to sell itself to the entertainment industry? Hey, there's already this!

Re:Linux and Video by Eccles · 1999-06-12 08:09 · Score: 1

Heck, regardless of crashing or no, NT can't claim to be a real quality OS as long as it uses drive letters... They've Got To Go. Not clearly separating the OS binary files from the OS data files (and furthermore, defaulting user data to subdirectories of the OS directory) is a further sign of a poorly though-out OS.

Also, I just love the support for directory links. Click on one in the File Save dialog and it replaces the name of the file with the name of the .lnk...

--
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:22 · Score: 0

I don't follow your logic. Just because somebody makes some hardware that runs CE doesn't mean Linux couldn't do an equal or much better job at it.

Law of Supp/Demand by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:26 · Score: 0

If any of you know anything about business and the consumer market place, then you will know that the law of supply and demand applies to the arguement as to who will win ( Linux of winCE ) Since there are serveral times more windows users than Linux users,( demand ) then according to the law of supply and demand, WinCE will have more of a demand and therefore more of a supply. It's worked this way for hundreds of years and will continue to work this way.

Ph.D. in economics and a Masters in Business administration.

Re:Law of Supp/Demand by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:42 · Score: 0

This smells like more fishy astroturf. The last time somebody put the academic degree exclamation point on their argument to me was when he was desperately losing the argument.
You would think that MS could afford better turf, but maybe they cannot go all out right now because of the scrutiny upon them.
How amusing to watch these little turf turds squeal! :)
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by topham · 1999-06-12 08:42 · Score: 1

Let me see, does a typical consumer care what operating system is running on his VCR like device? No.

What the typical consumer wants is the functionality. So, while Supply/Demand may rule the day Microsoft marketing won't.

The people who have to be impressed are the technical people who will be implementing the device.

It seems to me as well that the licensing of Linux would be a lot cheaper than WinCE for such a device. :)
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:47 · Score: 0

We will see. The law of supply and demand has always prevailed. This being the case, WinCE will not have any probmems in the market place.
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by miracle69 · 1999-06-12 08:57 · Score: 1

It has come to my attention that an AC claims the following.
Ph.D. in economics and a Masters in Business administration.

Sounds like that MS Linux job has been filled. (Story on /. a few days ago) What I wonder is why all of the Pro-M$ AC postings in this thread have the same style of speech, almost identical language, and similar grammatical errors.

Let me ask our AC PhD a few questions....

1) Why don't you get a /. account? It's free. Or, do you not understand the concept of "free".

2) Why would any developer risk the quality of their product on an OS that costs them money and has a history of crapping all over itself?

3) How does the number of windows users equal demand? If I run an M$O$, does that mean I demand that my VCR run a M$O$? I don't think so.

Perhaps you are a MSCFUDF [1]

[1] Microsoft Certified FUD Flinger

--
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:31 · Score: 0

1. I do not register my email address on the Internet with any web site.
2. If that were it's true history, then noone would want to use it.
3. I don't use windows, but most of my associates do. I use a Macintosh for most of my work but I will be switching to Windows because of all the nice software that's out for an Economist.
4. The number of consumers that want to use a product = demand. Those consumers want to use a name they have herd of (MS Windows). Because of this, the supply will flow into the market place.
I really don't see what the big deal is. You guys act like this is some sort of a religion.
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by hattig · 1999-06-12 10:44 · Score: 1

Well you do use Windows, 'cos you seem to be using M$ text codes there, look at them nice question marks. Oh, wait, maybe you are using IE for Mac. I thought it had the same problem though...
Linux isn't exactly unheard of really is it now? Windows has the advantage of a conistent GUI that many users will be familiar with, but then again, Linux GUIs can emulate it perfectly. Most users wouldn't know the difference, until they found the configuration program... :-)
And for the 10th time, it is heard not herd you silly 14 year flamebaiting boy. You have such poor spelling and grammatical structure to your posts I cannot conclude differently.
Slashdot isn't going to sell your e-mail address (I hope :) ) on. We aren't M$ or any of your favourite corporate companies.
Most users will go into a shop and buy the box they like the most. They don't care if the box runs WinCE, Linux, AmigaSoft5, BeOS or CP/M , as long as it does what they want it to do. They have heard a lot of bad things about M$ though, and might be wary, and they might not like how it works. There are a lot of better solutions to a problem than WinCE, which is a poor excuse for a system to be honest, after you have got over the colour.
Bad start to my user history this, two replies which will obviously be marked down to -1. sob.
Re:Law of Supp/Demand by jafac · 1999-06-14 05:11 · Score: 1

Sounds to me like Steve Barhkto went and got a degree at DeVry!

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.

of=or by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:28 · Score: 0

Excuse my typing I ment ( Linux or WinCE ) not "of"

Re:Anonymous Coward by razorwire · 1999-06-12 13:08 · Score: 1

Hmmm, and running WinCE in a remote control. Yeah right.

That's about the only thing this goon's posted that isn't a lie.

You can't make stuff like this up...

(insert your own "Linux port/Beowulf cluster/etc" joke here)
--

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by derfbeer · 1999-06-13 04:31 · Score: 1

My first and definitave experience with the NT BSOD:
print a webpage from IE (ironically, a page
about how to network under NT) and become familiar with the BSOD. It turns out that this was (and is) a known bug.

NTSP3, 860 printer.

Fred

Re:This is a Lame appliance STOOPID REPLIE by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 13:32 · Score: 0

Yeah, right on bro! I got me 15 Windows CE devices in my house. I can surf the Internet through my bathroom scale while sitting on the bowl. My wife's vibrator give me stock quotes. My electric razor plays realaudio and my blender can show lo-rez jpgs. The whole thing is connected to the net through my microwave via 345 carrier pigeons to my ISP. Try multiplexing that under linux! Oh, I can also get 6M polygons per second playing q3test on my trash compactor! Top that on your puny underpowered leeeenoooks boxen! hahahaha

Re:why this won't always work by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 04:59 · Score: 0

Try volume checking. A movie or television show will occasionally have very loud sounds, but not a consistent length of loud sound, whereas most commercials are consistently louder over the entire length of the commercial. I've tested this at work - turn down the volume until you can just barely hear the actor's voices, and commercials are still audible and understandable at a distance. For that matter, when the television has been turned up a bit, I've heard crackling during the "silent" parts of the commercial. They are definitely recorded at a generally higher volume.

a little fish in a big pond
seasinger@sprintmail.com

Does this thing just scream "MP3" or what? by XNormal · 1999-06-12 14:03 · Score: 1

It's got a big disk.

It's in your living room, connected to your sound system.

To me this says "MP3!"

Is it an open architecture?

--
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by IntlHarvester · 1999-06-13 05:17 · Score: 2

I can believe it. (A peril of GDI in the kernel.)
--

--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by edgy · 1999-06-13 06:12 · Score: 2

Huh? What does Linux have to do with open source? No one ever said the hardware manufacturers are going to release their specs or drivers as open source.

If hardware manufacturers want their hardware to be available to the most users, they will make it part of the Linux kernel.

If they don't, and they provide online module drivers, people will not want to buy their hardware as much. Those companies that release specs will do better than those that don't.

Linux's Open Source nature certainly makes a big different in driver quality. Drivers for Linux tend to get better much faster than if we were forced to deal with the hardware manufacturer alone. Hardware manufacturers are selling hardware, not software. What should they care if their release specs or not? The ones with a clue don't care.

It's called "Commercial Advance(tm)" -- get it. by SandHawk · 1999-06-13 07:03 · Score: 1

I have two VCRs with this feature (by ProScan, about US$400 each) and it works very well. I've been using them for several years, averaging watching maybe 5 hours of recorded TV a week. The one show they have problems with is Babylon 5, probably because of all the pure-black space shots.

The manual says the technology is patented, and licensed for use by many different manufacturers. it says the algorithm uses many different factors and does sometimes make mistakes (which are not a big problem; you just use the remote control to over-ride it).

I don't think advertizers/networks are particularly threatened by this, actually, because if you happen to be the (rare) kind of person who records-then-watches most of your TV, then you're going to fast-forward through at least the annoying commercials anyway. This just makes it a lot easier.

Re:I do hahahaha by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 14:34 · Score: 1

Rather than acting like an elementary school teacher and going around patronizing random strangers, perhaps you could have posted such a URL yourself.

Since I don't run Linux, why would I know about this HOWTO?

I was just pointing out that "fuck you dumbass linux can do it" is not a very helpful way of pointing out how to use the multiple modems under Linux.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

DR-DOS "multitasking" is cheezy by Sloppy · 1999-06-12 15:11 · Score: 1

I used Novell DOS (DR-DOS 7) for most of '94 (before switching to OS/2 after seeing one too many nun commercials ;-) and I have to say that it's version of "multitasking" is cheezy. It's just a hack, not really any better than running DesqView or Windoze.

From a user's point of view, yes, it's multitasking. You can compile two programs at the same time, for example. It's just multiple virtual machines -- much like running a bunch of DOS programs (as opposed to native OS/2 programs) under OS/2.

But from a programmer's point of view, it's not really there. Think about the reasons that multitasking is useful: multithreading and asynchronous I/O. For example: it's nice to have a thread that reads data from mass storage into a RAM buffer, and another thread that "plays" the data, so that if the reader is briefly interrupted for whatever reason, playback remains smooth. (Ever heard an audio CD "skip"?)

DR-DOS doesn't have anything to help you do that. That's one of the reasons that xx-DOS went away to be replaced with Windoze, OS/2, and Unix. It's also why it's so damn hard to wipe the smug smirks off the Amiga users' faces, despite their diminishing numbers. Programming for a "real" multitasking OS is a lot easier than faking it under DOS.

--
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.

Re:No Linux sucks with this by sidi · 1999-06-12 15:33 · Score: 1

> Try that with linux and you get some stupid > fucking error "unable to open sound device"

EsounD will let you play multiple sounds at once.
http://www.tux.org/~ricdude/EsounD.html

(And this wasn't always so easy and automatic on windows)

Re:They're available -- Read Other Post Below by Cato · 1999-06-12 15:52 · Score: 1

However, under the GPL as soon as one person gets the CD they are quite free to post the changes or the whole thing on their own FTP site.

Re:this is cool; no, you're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:51 · Score: 0

This past week, in Norris' testimony in the DOJ trial, it was brought up repeatedly about how Windows was the "only game in town."

Not any more, bud--teehee!

And before some turf dummy dispells the monopoly crimes--no, they are a done deal. MS is just trying to launder those bucks now, like dope fiends. Have you people no shame?

Re:Video Editing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:53 · Score: 0

Maybe you've heard of a little movie called TITANIC...

Re:One disadvantage by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:54 · Score: 0

And WinCE is real-time?

Besides...how often does the average people need real-time applications anymore?

Re:this is cool; no, you're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:56 · Score: 0

The Goverment is nothing but a small bug, annoying at the most.

Re:Video Editing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 08:58 · Score: 0

I know all about it. There was not editing of that movie on Linux. Linux based systems were used to render the graphics.
No VCR editing software. And if that movie was done with Linux THEN WERE IN THE FUCK IS THE SOFTWARE THAT WAS USED TO DO IT WITH?

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:00 · Score: 0

If that is true then

"You can trust us, we are using Linux" by bafful · 1999-06-13 07:29 · Score: 1

...or what is this supposed to be?

Forking limits on breadth, not depth by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 08:22 · Score: 0

Yes, you can limit the number of child processes that a program can invoke, but each of its children will get the same limit. These limits limit a process from forking too many direct children, but don't prevent each child from spawning a new child itself. This allows a user program to tie up all of the processes.

Re:MPEG hardware... by steve_bryan · 1999-06-13 09:19 · Score: 1

>I guess anyone who thought linux sucked at multimedia is proved wrong with this thing, eh? Proof through example!

>Example of what?

Pause for a moment. Try to remember that the entire thread is about a linux box that does some fairly amazing simultaneous mpeg2 compression and decompression while digitizing analog video. I bet that is the example the first writer had in mind. That's the proof by example that linux is capable of multimedia (for no more than $500 including the hard drive). When I first read about TiVo and ReplayTV I was certain they must be using OS-9 or some other realtime operating system. I'll be very interested in seeing the modifications they've made to make this work.!

Re:Linux IS mentioned... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 16:08 · Score: 0

When you start programs that use the memory the cache will shrink to give them space. If you don't, then it's good that the cache doesn't "forget", because you can't tell when you need those data again (more cache hits).

Re:This is a Lame appliance STOOPID REPLIE by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 16:16 · Score: 0

oh, linux can do all of that and more. obviously, you have never used linux. therefore, you are not aware of it's capabilities. this makes you lame, therefore, you need to shut your hole. oh, and u only have the appliances going? shit kid, linux can easily navigate the space shuttle to dock with the new space station. they chose linux to do that. it's a proven fact. go ahead, ask NASA. sorry, you lose.

Re:MPEG hardware... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 09:47 · Score: 0

Sure. Agreed. I shouldn't have been blabbing on about that crap on this thread, but after purchasing a Bt848 based card, and seeing the other poster make it out to be a great video capture card, well, I got a little mad. ;-)

If somone can get that TiVo box interfaced to a "real" PC linux box, I'll drop my windows (and the Bt848 card) like a hot potato. Please do this, make Linux+Video Capture not be a sucky solution...

Latency by edgy · 1999-06-12 18:42 · Score: 2

But the latency is going to be higher than with ISDN or ADSL or cable or anything like that. I.E., your telnets won't feel any faster using EQL or anything like that.

Re:Latency by Trepidity · 1999-06-13 10:48 · Score: 1

Sure, it's not the perfect solution, and ADSL is definitely better. For now, however, it's not a bad solution, as a dual-channel ISDN line is prohibitively expensive. At least EQL will speed up your downloads.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:why this won't always work by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 09:56 · Score: 0

You could always put the left channel through an inverting Op-Amp, the right through a Non-Inverting Op-Amp, mix the signals, and check if there's anything left...

Not that these VCRs even check for this stereo/mono BS. Check my other AC post...

Hack this box? by Espressoman · 1999-06-12 19:05 · Score: 1

With the capacity for real time MPEG-2 encoding and the nice integration of this box, wouldn't it be fun to hack for other purposes :o)

Re:Video Editing is easy. by Junta · 1999-06-12 19:47 · Score: 1

It's not the simple fact of the video editing being possible, it is that this company has taken video editing and all this stuff and put it in a tv-sized box with a interface as simple as a VCR's.... I don't think you would want to use a windows operating system for that, you need something more reliable.. Of course, in this case I don't think linux is appropriate either, FreeBSD might be closer, but in truth, this application shouldn't use a general purpose operating system but a specialized one that would be most efficient, it's not as cost-effective for producers, but would result in a better product. I have the same complaint about new gaming systems using operating systems like Windows CE..

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

Re:Why not code this for a PC? by Junta · 1999-06-12 19:53 · Score: 1

Well, better add a MPEG2 board, no way a system would be able to do simultaneous real-time MPEG2 compression and decrompression simultaneously :) I think the community would be hard pressed to produce something this elegant and cheap, it's a cool idea, can't wait until there is a greater supply and competition drives prices down more.. I think they could do better than linux, general purpose OS shouldn't be used where not-needed, imho.

--
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.

Re:I do hahahaha by Trepidity · 1999-06-13 10:50 · Score: 1

No, the correct response to an assertion that Windows CE can do something that Linux can't is to provide proof that Linux can indeed do that, thus refuting the original argument.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by steve_bryan · 1999-06-13 10:54 · Score: 1

>This Tivo thing is evil - check this out at Wired. Go for the ReplayTV or wait a bit for the STB MPEG2 recorder card then write your own apps. Sorry, I dont want anyone to have a clue what I watch on TV....

Hey, wait a minute; if what you are saying is true, I still don't care. (Yes, I stole that retort from a popular TV program).

Re:Keeping my fingers crossed by tzanger · 1999-06-12 20:31 · Score: 1

One of the guys I know down in Pittsburgh has a VCR which has some kind of "fuzzy logic" associated with it. When recording a program it actually pauses during commercials. There *is* a set-up time for this where it "learns" what is going on but after that it rarely makes mistakes and there is no pause as it fast-forwards past commercials. way cool, it is.

Re:MPEG hardware... by tzanger · 1999-06-12 20:43 · Score: 1

Now if only the built-in sound support was decent (the only good sound support option I've seen is to purchase OSS for $20).

I've had better luck with ALSA. Made my two ES-1370/1371 cards work without sounding like I had dropped the speakers in to the bathtub. OSS-Lite (kernel) didn't work and neither did OSS, but ALSA sure did. I also like the driver interface, it seems to be a LOT cleaner.

It's more sophisticated than that by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 21:18 · Score: 0

It scans the program for fade to black and silence at the proper intervals. I have an RCA VCR that does this and it works well.

Here's the reference to the patent for the device: http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05333091__

BZZZZZZZZT! WRONG!!!!! by DavidTC · 1999-06-12 21:20 · Score: 1

That isn't the law of supply and demand at all.

From my first year college economics class notes, supply and demand simply states that if there is:

More of a demand, prices are higher, and
More of a supply, prices are lower.

And vis versa, of course. That's supply and demand, Mr. Coward.
So, WinCE has more of a demand, so either prices or (to counter it out) supplies are higher.

What you are talking about is just brand names. If it was actually true anyway, every single product that gained market share first would be champion. There is a little bit of resistent to change in marketplaces, but nowhere near this much. If you have a Ph.D in economics, I'll eat this message. Sheesh.

--
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:01 · Score: 0

If that is true then WERE IN THE HELL IS THE HARDWARE AT?

Re:serial ...... uhhh okay by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:03 · Score: 0

Apatch just to do MLPPP? how lame. That comes stock with win9x.

Put the technology on a card please by smartin · 1999-06-12 09:04 · Score: 1

This looks really cool, but i'd rather build my own system. If they sold the technology on a PCI card with Linux support software and an API, i would buy one in a second.

--
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by Compuser · 1999-06-12 09:05 · Score: 1

Guve the above post a +5 rating. Noone should go for this bait.

They're available -- Read Other Post Below by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:05 · Score: 0

What have you been smoking? The changes will be available according to a first-level post before.

Re:They're available -- Read Other Post Below by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:13 · Score: 1

They arent yet available. It's a "soon to be released under a nominal fee thing". Thats better than nothing of course, but i'd like to see and FTP site listing for it. Of course it would be real kewl to do the same thing on intel rather than PPC architecture. Maybe someone can do a port ??
Re:They're available -- Read Other Post Below by Zurk · 1999-06-13 01:40 · Score: 1

thats true. of course, no one has got it yet.

Re:this is cool; no, you're missing the point by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:05 · Score: 0

Maybe they are a small bug, but it is pretty neat to see what the ordinary users are thinking out there. This past week on a job somehow the subject of the trial came up. The secretaries in the office were so jaded about the suggestion of Gates being a dirty thief. A few years ago this reaction would have been a bit rarer I think. Even these people, as technically clueless as they may be, can see how MSFT got to be where they are. Oh yeah, they are also sick of Windows. :)

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:03 · Score: 0

Or lack thereof. ( future )

Typing error by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:12 · Score: 0

differnet = different

Re:windowsCE on the clio by beppu · 1999-06-12 10:18 · Score: 1

It's funny that you mention the Clio, because I've been looking at that wince machine for a few weeks now, and I am in love with the hardware. It is a thing of fscking beauty--I want Linux to be ported to this thing badly.

Quite frankly, the recent proliferation of wince devices worries me. There is a lot of nice hardware being made for wince, and I feel they're potential is being wasted, because they don't have a free operating system to run. I love the StrongARM powered Jornadas and the above-mentioned Vadem Clio w/ its 64-bit? MIPS processor. Why do they have to run wince, though.

I would love for Linux (or another GPL'd OS) to keep MS in check by providing an alternative OS for these subnotebooks and PDAs that currently only run wince.

In my dreams, I see a Linux distro called Subculture Linux which specifically targets the needs of these little devices. (I don't think it would be wise to run X on these machines, and Flash ROM is extremely limited, so installations will have to be seriously optimized for size). My life would be (almost) complete if I had a Vadem Clio that ran Linux.

Re:MS Stocks keep going up by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:20 · Score: 0

OK, so how much has their stock increased since the beginning of this calendar year?

I'll buy when I can backup/restore my shows... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:24 · Score: 0

This thing appears to be damn near exactly what I've always wanted. Unfortunately, once my TiVo fills up (up to 30hrs on the high-end box) the only thing I can do is copy to a VCR. They really need a network or external SCSI adaptor or something I can plug a Jaz drive or tape backup into it and copy off the stuff I want to keep forever. Its just under 1GB per program hour which is about what I'd expect with MPEG-2.

With the fast forward and auto drive reuse mechanism this would also be ideal for recording security cameras. You'd have a 30 hour continuous recording of the premisis and never have to change a tape.

Re:I'll buy when I can backup/restore my shows... by Cecil · 1999-06-12 21:53 · Score: 1

Myself as well. It would be cool if it had it's own built in VHS recorder for archiving shows, movies, etc that have already been recorded on the Hard disk. I mean, who hasn't said at some point, "Oh, gee, I wish I had taped that for So-and-so."

More than that, though. I'd like to see a whole lot of extensability. Sure, network card would be cool, jaz drive, DVD-ROM even. But I think this thing's real road to success lies in an interface to a PC. That's where the network card would come in real handy.

Heck, there's so much neat stuff you could do with it. Video streaming, archiving, even printing a still frame. I liked that guy's suggestion about MP3s too, and while it's probably useful for some people, I don't think that this box is optimally set up to do that.

Well that's enough of my random musings for now. I like this box already.

--
Random and weird software I've written.

Re:Sore .......BS by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:26 · Score: 0

Have you even used CE? CE is great for makingn a product that looks like winndows.. but if you have written software you know that microsoft is outwrite lying about its compatibility source-wise with the regular windows platform.. plus the newest release of the CE toolkitt for VC6 had some small cross-compile problems.. like compiler not being able to handle floating point compares on MIPS.

From a user's standpoint, the architecture flaws of CE become apparent quickly. The only accellerated drawing command allowed by the CE architecture is the 'line'. All printers work by sending a fullpage bitmap (quite a stretch on CE memory).. indeed, it is very hard to find use of programs outside of the 'pocket' series, mentioninng some of the incredible, no.. INCREDIBLE hand writinng recognitionn programs available for it..

It really is a worthless platform.. I have been watching it for a year to try and port our internal applications to it.. my final advice was (wait another five years, maybe they will get feature creap and it will support half the features we require.).

Anonymous Coward by hattig · 1999-06-12 10:27 · Score: 2

I think that the one anonymous coward that has been posting all of the flamebait, without any apparent knowledge of linux, and with terrible spelling (especially for someone with a degree!) should be outed. People posting crap like this will mean the end of allowing Anon Cowards, as everyone will have to register.

So, someone, look at the logs of postings, find out the IP address of the poster, and block it. We don't need these kind of irresponsible lies. Sure, WinCE might have a place somewhere, but it is way too overspecced in some areas, and underspecced in others. It is just a less bloated version of Win95 in the end. Cheap M$ crappy software.

Hmmm, and running WinCE in a remote control. Yeah right. Whack that 4Meg ROM in there, a nice 100MHz processor, 640x240 colour screen. Your lies are so pathetic they make me laugh. Go away, and read ZDnet.

On topic now...

This system looks like nothing else. Shame it isn't really a video recorder device, more of a video delay device, but having 4-30 hours of delay! Heck, whack in one of those 250Gig drives and get 300+ hours of delay!

The use of Linux is by the by, the company obviously found it to be the best solution, although I would have thought a dedicated RTOS such as QNX would have been much more suitable.

Re:Anonymous Coward by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 10:44 · Score: 1

On topic...

The only thing I don't see is the Firewire or SCSI port in the back of the box.../that/ would have accomplished the 'recording' function...

WRT QNX, the price-point of Linux vs. any proprietary-licensed OS is irresistible for a startup, especially one is rapid prototype mode...what /really/ speaks well for Linux is that Phillips did not see it to be necessary to change the prototype OS to a proprietary one for the production model...and, since these guys have admitted to kernel extensions, all of us otaku are gonna get a chance to see and review (and, hopefully, improve!) the changes, as mandated by the license!

Re:Yeah whatever. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:31 · Score: 0

How beautifull, perfect example of a windows user. I can't get it to work so it sucks. Did you start using a computer last week? Did you know that cdroms have to be made bootable, not all of them boot. Try putting your photoshop cd or what ever and see if that boots.

Re:No Linux sucks with this by tgd · 1999-06-12 10:33 · Score: 2

Actually its a Dual Pentium II 350 system with a half gig RAM.

But that's irrelavent. I didn't say a thing about watching video, I was asking about hardware assisted or pure software MPEG2 codecs, preferably a full hardware encoding solution. Obviously the Tivo has custom MPEG hardware tied into the unit -- I don't think you could get a PowerPC chip with the kind of power you need for software MPEG2 encoding and still get a drive and crap for $500.

The piece of hardware you'd need to duplicate this functionality on your home Linux system is that hardware MPEG2 encoding/decoding hardware. You can get crap to do MPEG1, but anyone who's ever watched MPEG1 against MPEG2 knows that MPEG1 is barely useful for this sort of an appplication.

I'm guessing since noone has ever jumped out with an answer to my question any of the times I've asked it on here, such a beast either doesn't exist or isn't very common.

Why not code this for a PC? by heroine · 1999-06-12 10:34 · Score: 1

Now we see how a team of EE's, an MPEG-2 board, and a few $100,000 salaries can pound out a hard drive VCR. What if we get some weekend warriors, a WinTV card, and a Linux box and do this in software? The system is really a dead simple 2 hour hack. Just start a thread capturing data to the hard drive and flashing to the display. If replay is desired, start another thread playing back from any point in the file. Maybe open up two windows: one or the live feed and one for replay. American TV sucks to hard for me to do it, but maybe you Japanese might find it worthwhile.

Re:Why not code this for a PC? by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 11:11 · Score: 1

What's the progress on Broadcast 2000?

Re:You must not have a JVC by Jack_Frost · 1999-06-13 11:02 · Score: 1

I've got a JVC HRVP-628U, it's a fairly high end editing VCR. It doesn't have the family message center, and I've never encountered the date roll over bug. Plus it appears that it's Y2K compliant, having accomplised the 1999 to 2000 rollover without incident and displaying the proper day of the week.

Re:Video Editing is easy. by steve_bryan · 1999-06-13 11:48 · Score: 1

>We have been using VCRs and Windows software for 2 years now doing what this thing does.

No you haven't. Are you even paying attention? Let's say you come home 30 minutes late to watch a 2 hour movie. If your TiVo or ReplayTV has been set to record the show you can start watching it immediately while it continues to record. That is probably the biggest deal about these devices. You can completely unhook from the schedule. With a $200 VCR or your who knows how expensive 500 Gb RAID array you have no choice but to wait for the entire program to finish before you can start watching. You can easily say you don't care about this detail but if you want to get up at 5am the next morning it's a pretty nice feature.

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by William+Tanksley · 1999-06-13 12:44 · Score: 1

You're right that NT bluescreens differently than 95/98. In my experience, that doesn't mean it bluesceens less, though.

At work, I run NT 4.0 WS without a reboot until it bluescreens, then I reboot and start over. No power-offs, just uptime.

It dies about once a month, not always with a bluescreen. (The machine's a stock Dell OptiPlex GX, P200MMX).

My win98 home computer has never bluescreened, although it innvents other modes of failure -- I don't even TRY to runn it constantly.

Linux has never crashed for me, and even X has never given me problems since I upgraded to Debian 2.0.

-Billy

Re:I do hahahaha by The+Welcome+Rain · 1999-06-13 13:25 · Score: 1

No, the correct response to an assertion that Windows CE can do something that Linux can't is to provide proof that Linux can indeed do that, thus refuting the original argument.

No, the correct response to a nasty little troll is to give it to him with both barrels.

Just as the response to a hypocritical pseudo-pedant who won't do his own research is to point out the shortcomings of his own arguments, as I have done with you.

You may have the last word -- I'm done with you for now.

--

--
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom

Re:Linux IS mentioned... by miquels · 1999-06-12 21:39 · Score: 1

A friend of mine works at Deltabeta and they have been doing this stuff with PC hardware for years now. They can send up to 6 or 7 MPEG streams over 1 100Mbit network, and each segment is continously repeated. The receivers buffer the movie you're watching and so all receivers can be in different parts of the 6 or 7 movies simultaneously. All this with a simple pentium and 2.5" IDE disk... he even had a Linux implementation at some point.

--
Living is a horizontal fall

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by The+Welcome+Rain · 1999-06-13 13:35 · Score: 1

Huh? What does Linux have to do with open source?

That statement, all by itself, demonstrates your idiocy.

Be off with you, buffoon.

No one ever said the hardware manufacturers are going to release their specs or drivers as open source.

Their Linux drivers will have to be open source -- GPL'ed, in fact. I do not expect you to understand why, given the ignorance you've displayed above...but perhaps you could ask a smart person to explain it to you -- if you know of one who will tolerate you.

I agree. This BSOD is getting old.

If you are getting tired of BSOD's, you might want to consider switching operating systems. If you are tired of people complaining about BSOD's, that sounds like a personal problem. Take it up with your doctor.

That's all for you tonight. Back in the basement you go!

--

--
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom

it mentions linus as the OS by josepha48 · 1999-06-12 21:59 · Score: 1

Designed by a Sunnyvale, California, company and manufactured by multinational Philips, TiVo records video on a computer hard disk instead of tape. Thanks to the Linux operating system, the platform TiVo runs on, and a development called "QuickView" from hard disk maker Quantum, the hard disk in TiVo can read and write simultaneously. The result: TiVo will let you back up and begin watching a program at any point, while it's being recorded.

--

Only 'flamers' flame!

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by Moofie · 1999-06-13 14:38 · Score: 1

Ummm..."Explorer caused a general protection fault in module USER.EXE". Happened to me about three hours ago. At work, on my beyond-stinky IBM Aptiva, this is a thrice-weekly occurance.

Of course crashes are caused by bad programmers. Who ELSE would be responsible for ill-behaved software, the Easter Bunny? A not inconsiderable number of these bad programmers work for Microsoft. In fact, some might argue that it's an identical relationship, but I'll leave that as an exercise for the class.

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by AlienJ · 1999-06-12 22:00 · Score: 1

First, I think it is cool that you all ARE using Linux. That rocks. Totally.

I never posted that message as a flame. A flame would have to be something that was mainly drivel.
A link to a Wired News story about your company is FAR from drivel - especially when it brings up some good questions about privacy. Sorry, but I value my privacy big time and will do everything I can to make sure other people will be able to value theirs as well.

I will admit I did not go to your site, nor have I ever been to your site, so I apologize if your policies have changed after Wired reported on the way you were originally going to handle user profiling.

I still however stand behind my original post.

Windows CE still has many advantages by TummyX · 1999-06-12 22:00 · Score: 1

Windows CE has a decent graphical engine. Linux has X. erk. (you could make custom ones based on svgalib or wotever..but the time it would take).
The casio E100 PalmPC for example can play MPEG movies.
Windows CE3 will be fully realtime.

I can't imagine linux running on a cellphone or palmpc. But I can imagine CE tho (simply cause it already does!!!).
CE3 will come with a small webserver for remote admin.
If you want more features you could always use embedded NT.

If pricing is an issue, go with Linux. But I can't stand the weenies around here who try to muddle things up by saying. Linux is open source, CE isn't open source, therefore Linux is better than CE at everything embedded.

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Moofie · 1999-06-13 15:09 · Score: 1

Pardon the response to your blatant troll, but where are your dictionary, style manual, and caps lock key at?

The hardware? First of all, keep in mind that the worldwide community of coders that make up the Linux community don't have the financial scratch to put together a consumer-focused piece of special purpose hardware. Yet. There's no reason Vadem's lovely Clio couldn't be un-hamstrung by getting Linux ported to it. They've done it with the Palm. (They=the Linux kernel Jedis who have forgotten more about programming than I could ever hope to know.)

It's funny to me that Microsoft has to strap a booster rocket of developers and marketing to their extraordinarily shitty WinCE operating system to keep it almost within shouting distance, usability wise, of an etch-a-sketch. Linux might not be there yet (there=the handheld computer market) but I'll eat your Vadem Clio if it's not there in three years.

I will go on record and say that some of the new WinCE hardware is MIGHTY tasty. It's only a good operating system away from ruling the universe.

Gosh, I wish I hadn't wasted this hopefully not totally uninteresting post replying to this unlettered idiot...

--
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!

A glass of water by Fartalot · 1999-06-12 22:04 · Score: 1

Greetings everyone, how are you today, I hope I find you all feeling healthy.

it seems very hot here tehehehe. Drink a glass of water or whatever you like, orange juice, coffe (i got a mug full of hot java coffee).

About the tv stuff, I would like to have one of those boxes, but, its like buying another another tv and vcr i which already there. I watch tv and likes recording good movies from our local tv SBS http://www.sbs.com.au jacky chan, jet lee, eat carpet, evangelion, alot of good stuff there.
so I am going to buy myself a bttv tv tuner card to fit here in my linux box, so i dont have to turn on the tv (energy saving advantavge too)
i can watch tv while staroffice in other desktop or i can add the tv in my dockapps using wmtv == check http://www.bensinclair.com/dockapp that would be cool.

for mpg, vcd, mp3, wav, mid, i have already mpegtv mpeg_play mpg123 xmms0.9(buggy) x11amp

I thank God brings us good things in this life, and for more things to come as well. like bbs in 1990, then i got irc 1996 and nowadays you can watch tv in a computer. its really good you know.
I am a poor so i just have fun with things i have. i want a palmIIIx but i only have an old 386 1meg ram laptop so i just install linux there and bring it where i cant bring my desktop. i am happy :) tehehehehehehehe....

WinCE is good also from what some of you guys said, if its suits you well, its ok for me, i am happy for you too. :) as long as it brings you happiness.

but for myself tommorow at the swapmeet i want to have a fancy bttv card yihaaaaaaaaaa.......

Rainbow runner by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 16:26 · Score: 0

Nice card but the drivers suck! I'm using the 2.10 drivers off their site which seem to keep everything pretty much in sync but every once in a while, it will just stop capturing video but keep going with the audio. For example, it will claim a 3 minute capture is only 10 fps. When I play it back, the audio will be fine but the video is 1/3 the normal speed. Right before 3 minutes in playback it will the video of what was going on at 1 minute in... Try the Ulead Video Capture. That seems to work better sometimes.

I setup a FAST DV Master for a customer once. Very nice card but slightly out of most price ranges... Kindof strange because it is a full-length PCI card! Matrox also has the DigiSuite card with an on-board Ultra2 scsi controller... Geeze.

Re:Rainbow runner by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 17:58 · Score: 0

Yeah. I also find the damn Macrovision protection goes off for no reason. Like my home movies have just become copy protected property or something. Fortunately the hacks fixed that.

Ahhh, so it is a driver, not a hardware thing, the audio sync. Now I'm hoping even more that someone writes some Linux drivers for this card!

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by TummyX · 1999-06-12 22:14 · Score: 1

NT BSODs about the same as Linux does it's lovely kernel panics.

Most 'crashes' in windows are caused by bad programmers. Windows catches these and terminates the application before it goes and does bad things.
It's very rare to catch a crash that's solely the fault of MS or Windows since Windows' architechture allows 3rd parties to make kernel plugins with drivers and vxds.
Just wait till hardware manufacturers start abusing the linux kernel.

Why no DVD option ? by MeerCat · 1999-06-13 16:57 · Score: 1

Anyone know why there's not a DVD drive in there too ?
I would have thought seeing they've got all the rest of the circuitry in place, an optional DVD player would be cheap, reliable, and would add a lot of value... (how many boxes can you fit on the top of a TV anyway ?)

--
I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. - George Best

Re:Why no DVD option ? by Yarn · 1999-06-13 17:25 · Score: 1

Why not add in a DVD-RAM/DVD-RW drive in instead. That'd be a way to keep programs you really want to keep, and not limit you to 4h of high quality.

Wait for the price to drop a bit tho'

--
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent

Re:Who is moderating? by Accipiter · 1999-06-12 22:32 · Score: 1

Because they say Linux is no good, and have no reasons to back it up. The people who bitch about the Windows platform (usually) have reasons stating why it sucks. When you get a post like: "Linux sucks, this thing should run Windows CE", what is that supposed to say?

I Guarantee if you offer constructive criticism about Linux's flaws, you won't get moderated down, simply because your message has intelligence. Not something like "Linux Sucks."

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

--

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't. :P)

Re:I do hahahaha by The+Welcome+Rain · 1999-06-12 22:33 · Score: 1

Since I don't run Linux,

That's not an excuse; that's an admission of guilt. [emoticon deleted by HAPPYCLOWN]

why would I know about this HOWTO?

God, you're pathetic. I know all sorts of things about OS's I'm not currently running...and if I were going to berate some VMS advocate for failing to give a pointer to relevant help, I do believe I'd exercise my brain (you may substitute another organ, if required) and find the damned link, were it available. Linux documentation is certainly Web-available.

I was just pointing out that "fuck you dumbass linux can do it" is not a very helpful way of pointing out how to use the multiple modems under Linux.

The most obnoxious sentences in any language begin with the equivalent of the words "I was just". If you find yourself tempted to say such a thing in future, take a deep breath -- and hold it for half an hour.
The original claimant was not requesting Linux information, but was rather making a would-be triumphant claim about Windows CE's effulgent capabilities. The appropriate response to such a troll is not an FAQ, but rather the response Beethoven gave to an unesteemed critic: "Ass! Double-barrelled ass!"
If it is "unhelpful" to level such a justified criticism without providing pointers to help, it is still less justifiable to whine like a schoolmarm about someone doing same without being willing to get off your ass and do it yourself.

Stercor stercoriaris! You have offended sufficiently for one day. Go and ponder the error of your ways.

--

--
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom

Re:Video Editing by Accipiter · 1999-06-12 22:35 · Score: 1

Well slap me silly, and call me Bob, They used MS NT! I guess that's better by the NT by.....um......tell me again who else makes NT?

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

--

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't. :P)

Re:Linux IS mentioned... by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:26 · Score: 0

i recently did a hard disk copy (cp -ax / /hdd)
and my cache increased to 96MB while the buffers increased to 42MB. (checked with /proc/meminfo)
I copied 8 GB odd from one disk to another. Whats really weird is that the cache stays the same and doesnt decrease..its been like that for a day. anyone got any ideas whether the cache decreases ? it used to be 4MB cache and 1MB buffer before i copied the HDD across.

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by _Stryker · 1999-06-12 09:28 · Score: 1

Did any of you bother to actually read the policy statement at TiVo before trying to brand them?
---

Re:No Linux sucks with this by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:29 · Score: 1

bet you cant run doze95 on the box youre trying to see video under linux on. i bet its a 386DX33 with 8MB ram. :) Actually linux video works fairly well on a pentium-90 ..i get 15fps. (150MB RAM, 8.4GB Matrox HDD)

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:31 · Score: 1

1. buy a redhat 6.0 CDROM
2. buy 1 K6 or pentium-ii machine as a server.
3. buy 1 laptop (not too crummy..266 ought to do it)
4. install linux on said machines.
5. install wireless ethernet on both.
6. boot, configure and enjoy!!

Re:I do hahahaha by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:33 · Score: 1

Actually, it is. ADSL is not available in most places, and 4 phone lines is cheaper than a dual-channel ISDN line (and faster than a single-channel ISDN).

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:I do hahahaha by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:34 · Score: 1

Rather than acting like an elementary school student and going around using gratuitous pejoratives, perhaps you could've actually pointed out a URL of the HOWTO.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:Linux and Video by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:35 · Score: 1

something wrong with your config. i get decent video (15fps) on my P-90 with an ATI Mach64. (150MB RAM, 8.4GB HDD - Matrox). Granted, that it sometimes slows when doing something such as web serving a client or transferring NFS data or syncing or some shit.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 10:36 · Score: 1

Ummm...I'm going to assume you have your tongue /firmly/ planted in your cheek (or is it planted further SOUTH in your anatomy, say, somewhere on the anterior side, about 9-inches below your waist??).../ONLY/ those products that have paid Microsoft for the 'privilege' of licensing Plug-n-Play 'autoconfigure.' The rest, who either can't or won't pay for this piece of bug-ridden, hardware limiting brain-death, must continue to issue 'plug-n-pray' software that misses as often as it hits.

Doubt me? Then check the Reveal, ATI, USRobotics, Hewlett Packard or Microsoft Tech Support BBSes and see how much trouble it is to autoconfigure a Windows PC.

I use Linux and Unix work-alikes because I'm /smart/, not stupid...after all, I want to know what my hardware does, and push it to its limits, not just accept someone else's idea of what 'performance is (like as not with Windows, it's BSOD!)...

Back to Redmond FUDboy

Re:Linux IS mentioned... by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:37 · Score: 1

You could always adapt the Windows Solution to Linux and reboot.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:MPEG hardware... by tgd · 1999-06-12 10:37 · Score: 2

There's lots of TV cards supported. I've never seen one that could do hardware-based MPEG2 (or MPEG2 quality) compression at full 720x512 resolution at 30fps. Such hardware exists -- its used for PC-based video editing and production systems, but none of the ones I've ever seen are supported under Linux.

My guess is the TiVo uses a hardware MPEG2 solution. I didn't think prices had come down that far on MPEG2 encoders, but aparently they have. (Last time I priced one it was around $18k, and that was only a few years ago...)

I want one on a PCI card. :)

Re:Yeah whatever. is right. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:38 · Score: 0

As I said Windows 98 booted from it with no problems. And I have been using computers for about 12 years. Not long but enough to get my job done.

Re:Video Editing by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:37 · Score: 1

buy some commercially available software to do it..not everything is free on linux. there's loads of editing software on unix systems which should work on linux..check out computer graphics world or any such magazine. In any event you have to pay for everything on windoze.

It figures by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:39 · Score: 0

Six months ago I was just checking dice.com for what types of Linux jobs were available and interestingly enough there was a company designing a "tv box" which was looking for a Linux kernel developer or programmer.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:43 · Score: 0

I use Linux and Unix work-alikes because I'm /smart/, not stupid...

What a profound statement! All of the legitimate arguments for/against Linux are rubbish, but I too can be smart like you now. Thanks for the enlightenment.

And thanks for the dope-slap applied to 99% of computer users out there. They must all be stupid. Seriously, how do you expect to convince anyone that they should use Linux when you insult their intelligence?

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by jpatters · 1999-06-12 10:45 · Score: 1

you can always disconnect from the service and continue using your box. i fail to see how this is really important.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be better to support a company that doesn't feel comfortable about providing your user profile to advertisers, and actually gives you an easy means to skip the ad's in the first place?

--
"Remember, there never were pineapple-almond cookies here."

Linux IS mentioned... by Wayfarer · 1999-06-12 06:23 · Score: 1

...Although it's only mentioned in passing:

Thanks to the Linux operating system, the platform TiVo runs on, and a development called "QuickView" from hard disk maker Quantum, the hard disk in TiVo can read and write simultaneously.

What I'm wondering is whether the simultaneous read/write is mostly due to Linux or to that "QuickView" thing. I'm sure this could be useful in other streaming-media environments, too...

-W-

--

-W-

Is it all journey, or is there landfall?
--Ellison & van Vogt, 'The Human Operators'

Re:Linux IS mentioned... by ralphclark · 1999-06-12 07:01 · Score: 1

The only way it could be done - and remember the technology was developed by hard disk manufacturer Quantum - is inside the hard disk drive device.

They might use a humungous cache, but you'd have a hard job storing 30 minutes of video in any reasonably sized cache memory. just remember a 5 minute Quicktime medium resolution starwars trailer is about 24MB! My guess is that they have extra read heads on the same actuator arm which passively fishes in the tracks whizzing past for chunks of previously-written video, while the write heads are still busy with the primary job of writing the current input.
Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
Thought exists only as an abstraction

Lame answers by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 19:13 · Score: 0

That answer is getting mighty tired, especially if we're expecting commercial companies to use Linux. I suppose you build your own cars and houses from scratch as well? Humans have traded goods and services for thousands of years.. YOU write the software, I'll give you money I made doing something else for someone else. I'm not a programmer. If everyone had to write their own software for what they want to do I might as well just use Windows and give the money to Microsoft.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Accipiter · 1999-06-12 22:46 · Score: 1

Windows can configure EVERY PIECE of PC hardware made.

That's great, because I'm looking to install Windows on the ENIAC in my Living Room. I can't wait to see it detect every vacuum tube.
Oh, and I have a PC that I built myself. Why can't Windows 95 detect my legacy sound card? Oh that's right, it's not plug and play. I need to tell Windows 95 it's there, and where it is. And what's this? A blue screen? Gee, I just had one of those about 5 minutes ago. Oh yeah, Can you offer any advice on how Windows 95 can run on my 386 processor? Or perhaps my 28.8 modem that for some reason Windows 95 didn't detect. Bullshit, Mr. Windows, I DO have a COM 3, Why are you telling me I don't?

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

--

-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't. :P)

Re:Many good reasons to choose CE by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 20:15 · Score: 0

Manufacturers of volume products spend thousands of man-hours cutting cents off product price by adding engineering effort. A license fee wastes all that effort.

So the cost of training the small number of engineers affected by the development environment is just a non-issue. And many engineers working in an embedded-OS environment (especially the more powerful devices - ARM, PPC etc. rather than microcontrollers) are accustomed to either Unix or a Unix-emulation under DOS (e.g. command-line utilities, 'make'-based build etc.)

What is an issue is the cost of developing from scratch; so if you already have a major project
that you want to port from Win32, CE has an advantage. However, I don't see a lot of Win32
based VCRs (or set-top-boxes of any description) to provide an existing codebase, so this isn't really a big deal. There may be some video compression modules, but they're likely to be CPU-specific rather than OS-specific (unless sold as a binary).

What model has the Best Comercial Skip??? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 22:46 · Score: 0

Looking for a VCR,

What model of Panasonic does this?

And how does it compare to comercial skip on the Sonys?????

motjuste@briefcase.com

Re:Does this thing just hiss or what? by dim · 1999-06-13 21:42 · Score: 1

Actually, unless you watch TV with the sound
off you can't hear it.

One disadvantage by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 06:43 · Score: 0

Not "real-time".

Sure there's RTLinux but thats a bit of an ugly hack. And theres L4-Linux, also a bit of a hack but at least the underlying u-kernel seems elegant. But neither of them can disguise the fact that Linux in essence isnt meant for real-time.

Re:One disadvantage by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:43 · Score: 1

Besides...how often does the average people need real-time applications anymore?

Most of the time. For example, for this particular application. They had to modify the kernel to make it do real-time stuff at least tolerably well.

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by The+Welcome+Rain · 1999-06-12 23:00 · Score: 1

NT BSODs about the same as Linux does it's lovely kernel panics.

Interesting. Do you have some extraordinary evidence to back this extraordinary claim? If you don't, are you ready to retract it?

Most 'crashes' in windows are caused by bad programmers.

Nobody disputes that. The questions is whether the "bad programmers" in question were the Windows design team or the writers of apps.

The nice thing about Linux is that user apps have nowhere near the opportunity to blow up the OS that they have in Windows. This tends to put the blame squarely on the writers of Windows.

Windows catches these and terminates the application before it goes and does bad things.

In the same sense that headaches are cured by decapitation, yes, I suppose so. Linux also catches and terminates apps that do bad things, but it doesn't need to shut down the whole damned OS to do it!

It's very rare to catch a crash that's solely the fault of MS or Windows

I hadn't realized BSOD's came with a "Mea Culpa" field.

since Windows' architechture allows 3rd parties to make kernel plugins with drivers and vxds.

As if Linux's open source nature didn't allow third parties to write drivers. Bah. Had I the moderation of this thread, your post would appear only to those who set their threasholds to "Yes, Really, Absolutely Everything". You display not the least vestige of a clue about the operating systems you discuss.

Just wait till hardware manufacturers start abusing the linux kernel.

Ah, a little FUD to make Linux advocates fearful of winning. If hardware manufacturers make poor additions to the kernel, the matter will be corrected quickly if the hardware itself is good enough to justify the effort. That's how open source works.

Two clueless trolls in one day is enough. Be off, or I'll kick you downstairs.

--

--
Some keywords for the NSA in the Lord of the Rings universe: One Ring bind find Sauron quest Nazgul freedom

never BSOD's??? by hawk · 1999-06-12 23:16 · Score: 2

>NT BSODs about the same as Linux does it's lovely
>kernel panics.

In four years of having a linux box up 24/7, programming and writing on it 6-14 hrs day, 6 days a week, and using either the latest stable kernel or a mid to late development kernel, I have *never* seen a panic, save for the day when we were going down the list of scsi drivers trying to figure out which one would work wiht our screwball drivers (no, this isn't the recommended way of doing it, but when you scrounge from the spare parts bin, you takes what you gets).

4 years, not one panic. While there are exceptions (usually due to hardware failure), this experience seems to be typical.

I saw one kernel panic in about six months an a mac IIci running macbsd (netbsd), which was (apparently) related to an incomplete/late-alpha driver for X.

And FreeBSD 3.1 would panic on boot about 20% of the time if there was an extended partition with linux partitions on the ide disk. It would also corrupted on write to ext2fs often enough to be unusable.

3.2 has solved the first, and I've never tried the second. Unfortuneately, trying to write to a bad floppy drive sends it into an endless loop of failure, which eventually brings the whole system down, and prevents the hard drives from being proprly dismounted. Linux has no problem with this drive (it gets the errors, but doesn't kill them).

Yes, kernel panics do exist. No, the normal user doesn't ever see them. Kernel developers see them, and folks configuring hardware drivers without the docs see them. But the overwhelming majority of regular users never do, while I've never met a windows user that hasn't seen at least several crashes, if not several every week.

Re:Who is moderating? by jafac · 1999-06-14 05:32 · Score: 1

Basically, if you want to affect this process, you must get an account (you weenie), and become a useful and productive member of /. society, reading, and posting nice, on-topic posts, and eventually, if you're a good boy, and don't troll and flamebait, you'll get moderator privileges too.
Even I got moderator a couple of times, so if an idiot like me can get it, so can you, just stop being such a dufus.
All opinions, even pro-MS opinions are, in fact, welcome on /.
It's just distorting facts and offtopic posts that get moderated out.
We used to have a couple of pro-MS people who posted all the time, one was named sql*kitten, often posted some insightful stuff, rarely got hauled-out for repeating MS-marketing FUD, because he was smart, and avoided such foolishness.

If you don't want to be a part of the /. community, then don't get an account, stop posting, and stop complaining about the rules.

"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
-jafac's law

--

These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.

You must not have a JVC by hawk · 1999-06-12 23:25 · Score: 2

Eventually, you mostly learn to work around it.

But it has this *stupid* "feature."

You can enter the message with the up-down controls, letter by letter, and it has a stupid green blinking light to signal its existance.

Yes, it's dumb, so just todn't use it, right? Wrong, toughcing the button sets the feature. And there's no way to disable it again short of power-cycling the VCR. And once that buttons been touched, *every* other control save the power button ceases working until you touch it again, giving you the green blinky back. And with two 17 month olds in the room, a green blinky gets touched again . . .

And then there's the screw-up with the dates and programming. I forget exactly how it happens, but its to the effect of crossing a month boundary backwards. The first time doesn't change the day of the month, but only the day of the week. The second attempt crosses both. Congratulations, you now have a date that cannot happen, and cannot delete this recording program until fixing it, which you cannot do, since all changes effect day of week and month. You have lost this programming slot until you power cycle the vcr.

Re:You must not have a JVC by sjames · 1999-06-13 01:19 · Score: 1

And then there's the screw-up with the dates and programming.

On my JVC (different model since I don't have a blinking light), crossing a day boundary backwards can cause a similar bug. Crossing back over the boundary APPEARS to set things right, but it won't actually record the show. The slot can be cleared and re-used without a power cycle however. It sounds like they have been applying band-aids to the problem rather than fixing the bug.

I'd REALLY like to be able to flash new firmware!

serial load balancing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 06:48 · Score: 0

Its called serial load balancing. Thats how you use more than 1 modem.

Does this thing just hiss or what? by Erik+Corry · 1999-06-12 23:44 · Score: 1

It's got a big disk.

It's in your living room, connected to your sound system.

To me this says "MP3!"

To me this says noise. I never heard a hard disk I would want to have in my living room. I have enough trouble with my monitor, but that's because unfortunately it's an old Eizo with a fan.

Linux is the New Java by Skip666Kent · 1999-06-14 05:36 · Score: 1

Linux is giving (quite literally) manufacturers and developers everything that Java promised but never delivered.

Full-blown desk-top OS? Fine.
Thin-client workstation? Fine.
Embedded hardware/software/os combo? Fine.

It works and the price is right. This is just the beginning.

Wacky!

--
**>>BELCH

I seriously doubt that claim by hawk · 1999-06-12 23:45 · Score: 2

>It has come to my attention that an AC claims the >following.
>Ph.D. in economics and a Masters in Business
>administration.

I seriously doubt that he does. Look at his analysis, it's nonsense, and he couldn't pass the qualifying exams in micro at even a third rate school with it.

He has hopelessly confused the number of people on the demand-side of the market with the quantity demanded, missing entirely that demand is a function, while the quantity demanded is the value of that function at some point. Futher, windows and wince are separate products, and there is no reason to assume that the two are complements.

But then, I'm still six weeks from having a real Ph.D. in economics, so I suppose I should defer to the phony claims and stick to being an authority on law :)

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by jhereg · 1999-06-15 07:26 · Score: 1

Richard Bullwinkle indicates that TiVo has no plans to downloading ads to the box.

On the website:
If your viewing practices suggest that you are an outdoor enthusiast, the advertiser's generic car ad may be replaced by one for its four-wheel drive vehicle.

This might be the section that is confusing people
perhaps you can explain what it means?

(Note for completeness like many other things
in the Tivo service you can opt out of this)

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by LuckyStarr · 1999-06-12 23:50 · Score: 1

i once read about a harddisk with 2 r/w or one r/w and a seperate r head.

you can even have 2 ide or scsi-ports on one harddisk with this technology. i think they use one of those harddisks. otherwise the device would become anoyingly loud at playback+recording.

--
Meme of the day: I browse "Disable Sigs: Checked". So should you.

WinCE Remote Control by topham · 1999-06-13 00:27 · Score: 1

And, for about the same price as that remote control you can buy yourself a PalmPilot with IR port and do the same thing.

Never mind you can keep phonenumbers, address, appointments, games, etc on it.

Of course, the funny thing is, the interface for the remote is very close to PalmOS, they must have spent a lot of time trimming all the crap out of WinCE to make it usable on such a device.

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by dirty · 1999-06-13 01:06 · Score: 1

Really? Only time I ever got a panic from something that wasn't defective hardware (ram to be exact) was in a devel kernel, and then i've only gotten maybe 2. I've had windows bsod numerous occasions when doing stuff as simple as using netscape or mickeysoft word. My personal experience has been that linux is far more stable than windows ever will be.

--

-matt

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by Zurk · 1999-06-12 09:38 · Score: 1

you can always disconnect from the service and continue using your box. i fail to see how this is really important.

Re:MPEG hardware... by Trepidity · 1999-06-12 09:40 · Score: 1

I guess anyone who thought linux sucked at multimedia is proved wrong with this thing, eh? Proof through example!

Now if only the built-in sound support was decent (the only good sound support option I've seen is to purchase OSS for $20).

--
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10

Re:Linux and Video by aphr0 · 1999-06-12 09:42 · Score: 1

Hardware support, seamless integration with other apps, standardization, etc. Linux isn't shitty, but don't try to ignore the fact that is does, indeed, have drawbacks. Instead of pointing out how bad NT is, why don't you try spending that time improving linux?

Re:Video Editing by _Stryker · 1999-06-12 09:42 · Score: 1

Not that you really deserve an answer, but here is a link to a story outlining the use of Linux for the Titanic movie. Here is the link.
---

Re:MS Stocks keep going up by WORLOK · 1999-06-12 09:45 · Score: 1

Yeah, enjoy your loot, jerky.

A programmer friend of mine dumped all of his M$ stock and made even more money with Amazon, and dumped that before it dived. He dumped his M$ stock because he has principles and can't stand their scumbag corporate culture and predatory practices. I won't buy their stock for the same reason, even though I know it will make me money. I'd rather invest in non scumbag companies. You wouldn't understand that, though.

Like I said, enjoy your loot, and go stick your fat head back up uncle Bill's a$$..

In case you haven't guessed, I live in New Joisey, home of the Sopranos, and we NJ Linux guys like to make M$ jerky boys sleep with the fishes. ...so watch ya step ya frekin troll.

==============================
Windows NT has crashed,
I am the Blue Screen of Death,

Re:why this won't always work by knghtbrd · 1999-06-12 10:47 · Score: 1

*ponders commercials with ((( In Stereo where available ))) for 3 seconds*

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by srosen1 · 1999-06-12 10:47 · Score: 1

Look, who cares if it "takes hours" to configure linux. At least my hours of configuration on my linux system doesn't all the sudden vanish out of the blue. Like my MS-WindowsXX does then I spend hours reinstalling configuring my MS-WindowsXX.

--
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

Re:Video Editing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:55 · Score: 0

uhhhh wtf. I still do not see were the digital video editing software is for this damn Linux OS. so what they tied several cheap PCs together to render a graphic.
I SAY AGAIN. WERE IN THE FSCK IS THE VIDEO EDITING SOFTWARE?
There is none. It was done on SGIs and NT. MS NT at that.

How do I download from this thing by srosen1 · 1999-06-12 10:49 · Score: 1

Hey, with all the hopla or Qapla if you will has any one asked how do I save my shows. Oh, yeah I could dump them to a vcr but why? We are talking about Philips right, so when are they sticking a CD-Recorder into this thing? I think that MPEG2 is able to pack a couple hours into 600 mb right? Better yet they should stuff a 2gig JAZ drive in it.

--
Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

why this won't always work by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 09:59 · Score: 0

These don't always work, and there is a simple reason for that. What the VCR does is pay attention to the audio signal. If it is stereo, then it is assumed to be programming, if it is mono it is assumed crap. For obvious reasons this doesn't always work. Some commercials, and even more movie previews, are recorded with a stereo signal. If these features become more prominent or start to seriously effect things for advertisers, you can defenitly expect more and more commercials to be finished with stereo sound, for just this reason.

Re:why this won't always work by Audin · 1999-06-12 11:03 · Score: 1

And many cable systems have head ends which leave the stereo sub-carrier on at all times...so even mono commercials will appear to have a stereo sound track. There really isn't any sure way to distinguish between programming and commercials.

Although it occurs to be that the stupid little network logo is usually turned off during commercials...so maybe you could scan for that...

Re:Yeah whatever. is right. by tmhsiao · 1999-06-12 10:53 · Score: 1

And I have been using computers for about 12 years.

"using" ne "understanding"

Not long but enough to get my job done.

"enough to get my job done" ne "enough to get my job done well"

HTH. HFIH.

--
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by _Stryker · 1999-06-12 10:53 · Score: 1

I guess my little hint to read their privacy policy didn't help much. But to sum it up, they don't give out any of your personal information without your consent. All personal information is removed by the unit before it is sent back to TiVo, even TiVo doesn't receive this personal info. So, before you go around spreading FUD, I would suggest that you check your facts a little more closely. In fact, I think this entire thread should be marked down because of its irresponsible accusations!
---

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 10:53 · Score: 1

RE:..."thanks for the dope-slap"

You're welcome.

And it's not 99%, it's 73% (and shrinking).

These are filesystem faults, not inherently NT pro by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 10:56 · Score: 1

Heck, regardless of crashing or no, NT can't claim to be a real quality OS as long as it uses drive letters... They've Got To Go.

This is an interesting and valid point. However it seems to be a fault with the filesystem, and not the OS itself. The filesystem can be separated from NT; NT deals with more than just NTFS.

Not clearly separating the OS binary files from the OS data files (and furthermore, defaulting user data to subdirectories of the OS directory) is a further sign of a poorly though-out OS.

Once again, this not a symptom of internal organization (which is fairly decent), but of external organization and history. How different is c:\windows\system than /usr/lib, a conglomeration of DLL files (lib files)? vmlinuz is analagous to MSDOS.SYS (kinda). And, how great is /etc, the dump of any configuration file from any program (now what's the configuration file for prog X called again?).

It's true that the Linux shell is typically more powerful than the NT command shell. There exist other shells (and desktops) for NT though. I'm thinking of 4DOS, and Norton's replacement. Perl is available on NT for scripting, so that playing field is level.

But, compare kernels, because that's where your differences arise and that's where fundamental design decisions come into play and plague an OS for the rest of it's life. Yes, I thought to myself "What the hell is Microsoft doing putting the GDI in the kernel?" That was a stupid decision because it directly led to NT stability problems. Before then, NT used to be rock solid, even more so than Linux I think, but it's hard to compare due to the different timeframes.

Re:Yeah whatever. by Audin · 1999-06-12 10:56 · Score: 1

Your problem likely has very little to do with Linux. It's either caused by your hardware manufacturer not making programming information available to open source programmers, or it's a PCMCIA cdrom drive. If it's the second case, then it's being addressed right now on linux-kernel.

Please don't base your opinion of Linux on one experience with funny hardware.

Re:Are you sure you want to get excited about this by jhereg · 1999-06-12 10:57 · Score: 1

This policy statement is new, earlier when I reviewed both this product and ReplayTV, TIVO did NOT have an opt out policy. From my perspective the other big advantage of the ReplayTV box is free lifetime guide service which you pay for with TIVO. Ideally any box like this would be able to get a program guide from third parties. I also think that even if I am using a modem I'd rather have these smart devices use some kind of network to them talk to ONE box that has the modem and Internet access.

MPEG hardware... by tgd · 1999-06-12 06:51 · Score: 2

Okay, I've asked this three or four times in various threads on Slashdot, and twice submitted Ask Slashdot questions. Maybe this time an answer will present itself.

Does anyone know of ANY video hardware supported under Linux that supports any sort of medium to high bitrate video codecs? Any hardware that can do MPEG2? Or software?

MPEG1 doesn't really hack it.

Re:MPEG hardware... by ywwg · 1999-06-12 07:10 · Score: 1

I think the bt484(??) tv cards are fully supported. Just do a make xconfig on the linux kernel and look at what is supported through Video for Linux.

I guess anyone who thought linux sucked at multimedia is proved wrong with this thing, eh? Proof through example!

windowsCE on the clio by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 06:59 · Score: 0

I have a small etch-a-scetch looking box that runs a web browser and it's wireless. I walk arround my house and go outside and browse the web with it all the time. It's routing through my NT box that's connected via ADSL to the net. see
http://www.vadem.com/ and you will see that Linux can't hold a light to the WindowsCE market.

Re:windowsCE on the clio by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:38 · Score: 0

The Clio is not the same as a Pentium laptop.

Instant on, touch screen, low power, solid state, Windows CE. Awesome.

Keeping my fingers crossed by RimRod · 1999-06-12 07:00 · Score: 3

I recall a VCR that came out sometime from 1990-1994 that was able to cut out commercials while it recorded: Watching the tape later, you'd get a blue screen for about 3 seconds and then it would jump back to normal programming. It was a terrific innovation, and I was seriously considering picking one up.

It got sued almost immediately, by about 50 different companies or organizations. It never went into mass production, and the company that designed it was never heard from again.

This is the last thing that advertisers want to see--it takes away their ability to force feed commercials (which is how TV stations get the large majority of their revenue) down the viewers' throats. They hit the designers, and they hit them hard.

I'm hoping and praying that the same sort of thing doesn't happen here, because it's the first step in going to digital VCR boxes and the like.

--
- ...and remember, you can't invade Brainania. It's not on the big map.

Re:Keeping my fingers crossed by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:21 · Score: 0

Out of business you say? I own such a VCR and I thought the feature was standard. It records your favorite show, then marks the commercials when it's done recording. When you watch the tape, it fast forwards over them for commercial free fun.

These things are for real, they're not gone.

Re:serial ...... uhhh okay by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:00 · Score: 0

Yeah I knwo that. but last time I checked It was so fucking diff to get just 2 modems under linux working with the ISPs in this area.

Re:I have 8 WinCE devices at home by Glith · 1999-06-12 07:10 · Score: 2

How many anonymous cowards does it take to post 3 comments that agree with themselves?

only one, of course!

Guess we're already seeing the anti-Linux guys at work.

Star Trek on CDs by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:18 · Score: 1

I use a VCR to record all Star Trek series and then I run them through a windows video editing software package and edit out all the commercials and then I write them to CD in a video format with high bit rates. It's easy to do this stuff under windows. Why is it not easy under Linux. I don't get it. It's just plain stupid not to be able to do that on a PC OS.

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:02 · Score: 0

This is a VCR, it's not a computer. People don't see the Linux interface, nor do they add devices and try to autoconfigure them. Why would anyone try to add hardware to a VCR? In fact, how would they know it was running Linux? The only thing they'll see is the interface they're running on top of Linux.

They'll hit the rewind button, and it will rewind. They won't think about the OS when they're rewinding, they're just going to think that the VCR is rewinding. They aren't even going to notice that the OS behind the VCR is reliable, because VCR's simply don't crash. Windows does though.

Many good reasons to choose CE by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:27 · Score: 0

1) Subset of the standard Win32 API. No need to retrain your developers.

2) CE is a modular OS

3) Superb development and emulation tools for CE.

4) Excellent documentation and support for the CE OS.

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:32 · Score: 0

Just wait till hardware manufacturers start abusing the linux kernel.
Ah, a little FUD to make Linux advocates fearful of winning. If hardware manufacturers make poor additions to the kernel, the matter will be corrected quickly if the hardware itself is good enough to justify the effort. That's how open source works.

Huh? What does Linux have to do with open source? No one ever said the hardware manufacturers are going to release their specs or drivers as open source.

I agree. This BSOD is getting old. Every general purpose operating system crashes. Whether you call it BSOD or panic, doesn't matter.

Who is moderating? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:06 · Score: 0

Why is it that when someone says Linux is stoopid for no good reason, their post gets moderated down, while it's ok to bash Microsoft; you won't get moderated down for that?

Re:Who is moderating? by tmhsiao · 1999-06-12 11:10 · Score: 1

Because there are many varied (and on-topic) reasons that Microsoft gets bashed?

--
"My God...It's full of ads!" -Fry, about the Internet, Futurama

Re:Why use Linux? It's stupid by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:06 · Score: 0

Yeah, why would anyone want to use an OS that expects them to know what kind of hardware is in their computer? (aside from cost, reliability, or customizability)

Dreamcast and WebTV by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:47 · Score: 0

Well, thats two more consumer devices that run on Windows CE (which is an extremely young OS).

Pretty soon, everything will be running Windows CE. The stupid government is arguing over Windows 95 and 98.

They ain't seen nothing yet!

Re:MS Stocks keep going up by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 11:08 · Score: 1

Ummm, it's /down/ 17% since April, been downgraded at least once by three of the five top analysts, and was /down/ 1 7/8 Friday...

Also, just barely made the top 10 of the BW Top 100 Techs (made it with reservations).

Re: BSOD crap is getting old by IntlHarvester · 1999-06-13 01:50 · Score: 2

And were those Windows 9x BSOD or a Windows NT BSODs?

The reason I ask is that it seems that Linux users are honestly confused on the issue. Win 9x (with only some memory protection) can blue screen on normal user programs. It takes a kernel fault on Windows NT to produce the blue screen, which was the point the original poster was trying to make when comparing a BSOD to a Linux panic.

The worst thing I've seen a user space program such as Netscape or Word do on NT is to take down the entire user session and drop back to the logon screen (assuming you don't have a hardware problem). Similar things happen under Linux.

Now, of course, there's more stuff in the NT kernel to crash (graphics drivers, file sharing, IIS, extra bits of poor programming, etc.). And the STOP message should tell you what crashed. If you can't isolate the problem down to something more specific than "windows", that's simply bad troubleshooting on your part. Perhaps it's the same defective RAM that was troubling your Linux setup. (Most NT bscreens are hardware/driver related.)

I'm only making this point because on this "news for nerds" site, people can get away with saying "BSODs three times a day!" without giving any specific information. If someone posted "The Linux Kernel PANICS all the time!! ", they'd be certainly called on it.

Now it could be your talking about Windows 98. If so, who cares? *Every* OS on the market today is more stable than Win98.

--

--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.

MIT hackers don't do WinCE by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-13 01:50 · Score: 0

(I wouldn't put it past the MIT hackers!)

Us MIT hackers have better things to do than write malicious virii that wreak havoc on Microsoft products. Besides, where would we find a Windows CE machine on our campus anyway?

Re:this is cool by Dead+Mike · 1999-06-12 11:18 · Score: 1

muKernel works on Clio, too, with support for stylus and better color performance. Also leaves more RAM and disk space available.

Specs show, however that it is a /dog/ as compared to a decent 486 with the same amount of RAM...

Video Editing is easy. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 11:22 · Score: 0

We have been using VCRs and Windows software for 2 years now doing what this thing does. We record a movie then pull a copy of the movie off of the tape with Windows Software. Then we edit the movie with Windows digital video editing software and write it to a 500Gb RAID array disk. After that it gets put back on to another tape that plays in VCRs. No problem. Can you not do this stuff with Linux? you should be able to because some of our production artists use Macs and SGIs. But for the most part Windows digital video editing software is used.

My VCR skips commercials automatically on playback by kcurrie · 1999-06-12 07:18 · Score: 1

It's a Panasonic VCR. If you check consumers report's you'll see this VCR-- it's rated by them as #1. After recording a program it goes back and marks commercials, then on playback it automatically fast forwards past them. It also skips past the previews on rental movies (I've seen this fail a few times though). The commercial skips is flawless though!
The VCR was only ~$500CAN.

--
-- I speak only for myself.

Re:serial ...... uhhh okay by kcurrie · 1999-06-12 07:21 · Score: 1

Why is this in the DVCR section?
Anyway, you can use multilink PPP under Linux easily and use multiple modems-- my home gw box is doing that right now.
You need a kernal patch to do MLPPP though.

--
-- I speak only for myself.

Re:Video Editing by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:22 · Score: 0

I've worked at five local T.V. Stations in the video editing department and the OS they use are Macs and windows. I have never seen or even herd of any profesional video editing software for Linux.

Are you sure you want to get excited about this? by AlienJ · 1999-06-12 07:22 · Score: 5

This Tivo thing is evil - check this out at Wired. Go for the ReplayTV or wait a bit for the STB MPEG2 recorder card then write your own apps. Sorry, I dont want anyone to have a clue what I watch on TV....

Babbling about Linux by Anonymous Coward · 1999-06-12 07:22 · Score: 0

There is this really cool revolutionary device and all you can do is babble about Linux as an appliance OS. The real question is, could this device be integrated into a standard PC? I want TiVo on a PCI card.

Info on the changes made to the kernel... by _Stryker · 1999-06-12 07:23 · Score: 3

I did a little research and sent an email to the TiVo folks. Here is what they had to say. Enjoy...

Subject: RE: Operating System used for TiVo?
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:19:11 -0700

Dear Sean,

Yes, it's Linux, and your timing is perfect. We just got finished creating our Tar.balls.
I can get you the exact details of the code that is available per the GPL, but basically it
is performance tweaks, and priority tweaks, to make Linux more of a Real-time OS. There is
also a bunch of stuff to make it work with our transactional file system, and other stuff.
I'll try to get you the full details, and if you want a burn of the CD, I'll try to get that
ready, too. We are going to charge some nominal fee for this, but I'm not sure what that
is, yet.

Oh, all tweaks are for Linux on the PowerPC chip.

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Cheers,
Richard Bullwinkle
TiVo Webmaster

-----Original Message-----
From: sean@sks-pc.cs.kau.se [mailto:sean@sks-pc.cs.kau.se]On Behalf Of
Sean Kendall Schneyer
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 4:56 PM
To: CustomerCare@TiVo.com
Subject: Operating System used for TiVo?

I read in a recent article that you were using Linux as the
operating system for TiVo. I was unable to find anything to
confirm this on your website however. Is Linux actually
being used? If so, what changes were needed to the kernel
to support your device? Is the source code for these changes
available (required under the GPL)? I would be very interested
in receiving more details.

Thanks in advance,

Sean Kendall Schneyer
---

254 comments