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Is the iToaster a Linux Box? Will there be Source?
I was given several different answers from different people. Here is a reply to an email asking about the code I sent to (sales@microworkz.com)
Mr. Malda,
Thank you for your interest in Microworkz.com. The iToaster operating system is a hybrid between BeOs and Linux and is licensed and patented by Microworkz.com, Inc. The source code is therefore proprietary and not available for download.
The Linux pure source code is however at www.linux.com.
If you have any other questions or if you would like to place an order, please give our Sales Team a call at (888) 306-2044 from 7am - 8pm Monday through Friday and 10am - 5pm Saturday and Sunday PST. Or simply check out our web sites at www.microworkz.com.
So I called them and asked more. I talked to a very nice gentleman who put me on hold for awhile while he found answers. According to him, the iToaster does not run Linux (although according to the email posted above from the sales department, it runs "A Hybrid between BeOS and Linux". This is sorta what the MSNBC article said ("The way it was explained to me, BeOS handles the file system, while Linux does just about everything else.")
So I guess there are 2 possibilities here:
- Microworkz messed up by using the word "Linux" when dealing with CNNfn and MSNBC, as their machine does not run Linux at all. This seems to be what I was told on the phone.
- Microworkz is violating the GPL by making modifications to the Linux kernel and not releasing them.
At this point there really isn't much we can do about it since the iToaster isn't really out so we can't do any pounding on it to determine if their is something questionable going on.
Thanks to the many of you who wrote in to give us the heads up on this. We'll keep you posted if we figure out more.
I am betting that it is BEOS plus the GNU parts of Linux i.e. everything but the kernel. They just threw in the word "Linux" to be buzzword compatible and anti-Microsoft.
If they just use the GNU utilities without modification then they aren't violating the license (I think) since those programs are available elsewhere.
Be. It runs the Gobe (http://www.gobe.com) office suite which runs ONLY on Be. I thinks this is just another case of the marketing wiennies and reporters screwing the pooch.
Yes, but if you let anyone have the source code, can they not legally distribute it themselves for nothing? (ie. If the cow-orkers got the source, then I'm sure one will run Linux and be smart enough to give it away...)
...to act. What I mean is that even though this box is not yet released, I think now is the time to do whatever is possible (don't know what -- may Linus should talk with them) to find out what is really the case here and help them to address it *before* they release it. Some vendors innocently misunderstand the GPL, so to me it doesn't make sense to let them embarass themselves first and then address the problem.
If we address it now, the company will have a choice -- release the source or don't base the released product on Linux (admittedly at a great expense). If we wait until after it's released, then they may have no choice but to release all of their code under the GPL. I'm a GPL fanatic myself and I'd prefer that all software were covered by it, but I find waiting until they release it and then saying 'release all your source under the GPL' after finding it is Linux based to be coercion at it's worst.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Yea, but what about my Mom? She gets really confused and impatient with Win95.. she'd go absolutely insane over Linux. She can't even understand the ideas of minimizing and maximizing windows, moving them around, etc. Linux would be WAY to complex for her.. she'd be on the phone every day to me. Perhaps a Mac?
Ok, now how long is that going to take ya?
;)
Linux is only free if your time is worthless
I'd settle for this box if i was looking for an easy way to get connected. I also heard they ship Gobe productive, a well known application suite for BeOS.
Anyone know if there is any projects out there to make an extremely simple software desktop setup aimed at Moms? Mine gets confused with even the simple Win95 interface. Something like a kiosk where you can select everything from a menu would be nice.. it'd just boot up and work.. no messing with the command line or worrying about messing it up by deleting stuff. Maybe have Netscape (or a simpler web browser?), email capabilities, and an office suite? Could, something like this be done with Linux very easily?
"you can get the source at the company X which gave us the binaries"
The above is not true. Company X has no obligation to give the source to any third-party, only to those they gave the binaries to (even if they gave them the binaries for free). Otherwise it would be hell -- if I give you a binary then I must give you source if you ask, but that's it -- if another 5 billion people came and requested source I would have to set up a company to deal with it. No, it's *you* who have to provide the source to whomever you redistributed the binary to. You may get away with referring to a public FTP server, but don't get me involved in any way -- I have done my part by giving you, and you only, the source.
TA
In the American courts if you don't defend your trademarks and contracts they become invalid. This is because it would be selective enforcement to zing one company for not adhering to their license but not another.
So GPL HAS to defend its license or it gives the all-clear to people like Microsoft to do the MS-Linux that is completely propriatary with no source code. MS has a damn good legal department, so if you give them an opening like this they'll use it.
Hopefully these guys will realize it and simply release the source code and mods that are GPL. It doesn't cost them anything, and if they've truly done some stuff in Be and some stuff in Linux they won't be releasing the whole system so competitors can't simply clone them.
hitchhiker
You should read his "The Right Way to Figure Plumbing."
If this machine isn't running Linux, shouldn't the owner of the Linux trademark (ie Linus) do something about it?
I thought US law had a provision that if you don't defend a trademark, you lose it?
That is why licensing source code is stupid and indefensible.
Its being demoed at the BeOS booth. You can tell this for sure because it runs BeOS only software for its Office Suite. Personally, I think Linux is just in there to capitilize on the name and popularity as the machine is BeOS without the Tracker and the Deskbar. They just created their own interface. Play with it and you'll see.
Wow...
It's entirely BeOS. Read here:
x po-1.html
http://www.ars-technica.com/wankerdesk/2q99/pce
Come on folks, this is MSNBC and like CNN. Do you folk really believe they know what they're talking about? Do you really think they've even used BeOS or linux or know what a file system is? Come on folks.
Hmm, my Win98 box boots faster than that.
If you re-license it under a different license, its not GPL(icense)ed anymore!!!
I can confirm that.
The BeOS home page has a link to a discussion of this topic.
The iToaster will run BeOS 4.5. Nothing more and nothing less. BeOS 4.5.
Robert
Bullshit.
.5 seconds so whats all this whining anyway.
No PowerMac every made can get through its BIOS and boot a kernel that fast. It just doesn't happen.
And for christ's sake - I can boot a dedicated terminal in
A company that *MAY NOT* have violated the GPL associated with Linux is now having the GPL crowd jump down its throat to release the source.
Future vendors should see this, and consider:
Is the GPL worth this hatered (rightly or wrongly) from the OpenSource community?
If its not worth it, and you are unwilling to provide source to your changes, then use something like (Free/Net/Open)BSD.
The biggest company to date to use OpenSource and keep a grip on its code changes is Apple. And, there is no one who is more into locking things up than Cartoon Maker Steve Jobs.
Red Hat's FTC Filing said that they wern't sure the GPL was enforcable. This might put it to the test.
Maybe you should try r4.5... rumor has it that it boots on some g3 machines...
Yeah..your mac boots within 14 second without ANY EXTENSIONS!
That is total lie. my G3 Mac can boot around 45 seconds even without any extensions.
get real.
This system uses the BeOS filesystem. The BeOS filesystem is journaling by nature, and therefore allows for "Instant On". The linux filesystem is the old unix deveritive and has to be fscked everytime the power is turned on.
When you create an appliance "Instant On" is a requirement. Having the customer wait 7 miuntes before fsck is finished is not acceptable.
You should see the BeOS "Benoit" Demo. Benoitn walks up to any pc running BeOS, and pulls the plug from out the back of it. Then he plugs it back in, and before you can say "Linux", BeOS is
up and running again. Not quite as fast as turning on your TV, but damn close.
Before linux can be used in appliances with disk drive requirements this issue has to be addressed.
stergios
Actually, Linux doesn't have any real problems just being switched off. The lack of a 'registry' really helps in this respect. It dramatically lowers the possibility that something crucial will be getting written to at any particular time.
This is especially true for an consumer workstation. They simply won't be hitting the disk hard enough for ext2 to be an issue.
For christ sakes... That piece of shit takes a least a minute to make up its mind.
I recently did a little work on a IIci for my friend's mom, and it starts up in about 25 seconds, with 7.5 and a couple basic extentions on (I forgot though ^.^;)
Gotta love old school Macs...
Hey all there is a nice story about
webster and itoaster..in NBCNEWS.com..
Check it out...Looks like only Toast is going to be the poor customers buying these Sh*T boxes.. That is my 2 bits...aka balls
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp#BODY
Micropiss is a lousy fly by night *#$%^
MOSIX was released under the GPL only after this was approved by the Israeli authorities.
Lives there a man with soul so dead
He's never to his toaster said:
"You are my friend; I see in you
An object sturdy, staunch, and true;
A fellow mettlesome and trim;
A brightness that the years can't dim."?
Then let us praise the brave appliance
In which we place this just reliance.
And offer it with each fresh slice
Such words of friendship and advice
As "How are things with you tonight?"
Or "Not too dark but not too light."
- Thomas M. Disch
(from The Brave Little Toaster)
It's a BeOS system. I think the confusion (in their marketing dept. and w/the journalists) is that the BeOS is somewhat POSIX compliant and includes a lot of ported GNU software (compilers, shell tools, etc...). The source is, of course, available for these...
This isn't really new for anyone who has been following either Be or the DOJ trial. Remember Compaq passing Be secrets to MS? That had to do with Be's development of a Win CE competitor. Be has also been working on embedded systems (some of the Be developers also work for/with QNX). Gassee's been talking for at least 5 months about internet appliances. Check: http://www.benews.com/story/?ID=680
Really, some people really need to improve on their short-term memory skills.
You've figured out the conspiracy. The GPL is a communist plot. It's an attempt to infiltrate the American economy through the software industry. The whole Soviet Union collapse was just a ruse to make people in the U.S. think the communist threat was over.
Most of the original communist conspiracies were failures. The attempt to take over the movie industry in the 1950s was thwarted by congressional investigations. The attempt to contaminate the bodily fluids of Americans with flouridated drinking water failed. The effort to place communists in teaching roles in American universities is having mixed results -- they can't tell the infiltrators from regular political science professors.
Many members of the great communist conspiracy believe that the GPL is their last hope. They will take extraordinary measures to protect it. I suggest you check your home for bugs and your phone for taps. Make sure you are not being followed by their agents -- they can be identified by thier facial hair, sandals, tie-dyed t-shirts, and poor diets.
Listen I've seen the itoaster, it runs BEOS R4.5 and thats that. It really has less than nothing to do with Linux except that a posix shell is included and the window dressing scheme is more x-windows like then the beos native windows. It is currently on display in prototype form at the BEOS booth at PCexpo. Calling is a hybrid is just a marketing decision and as far as I can tell has no technical merit. Proof being that it runs netpositive (the beos web browser) and Gobe productive ( the beos only office suite). Now there is the possibility that some linux code was used in the boot loader or some such but that doesn't qualify it as a hybrid as far as I am concerned. -- Matt
This was on www.nbcnews.com---->
... and Microworkz." ...
Here is the link...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp
--->
ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
troubles.
Two top managers who departed the company but asked
not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
refunding consumers.
The company has had well-publicized problems with its
product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
admits serious production troubles, and when the company
launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
for weeks, in some cases, months.
But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
inferior components.
'This company has
made our radar
screen,'
-- JANICE MARICH
Spokesperson for the attorney
general's office
"This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
the company's practices.
The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
air complaints.
"We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.
AOL in talks to enter PC biz
Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC
The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
problems began after that.
There have been other
sources of confusion,
too -- such as when
the company was
actually founded.
Latman contends things will be different this time around --
the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
1998.
On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
an annual report.
The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
shrugged it off as a technicality.
"It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
Latman said.
There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
Latman:
"Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
separatenesss between Latman
Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
been ordered, several former employees contend the company
has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
having the money.
This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
never received the gown.
MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
state taxes.
"I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
bankruptcy.
"I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and
the business failed."
When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
Latman declined.
Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
goal was to be a writer."
Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
May be they should read this..Flame the bastards for trying to take the Geeks for a ride
... and Microworkz." ...
This was on www.nbcnews.com---->
Here is the link...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp
--->
ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
troubles.
Two top managers who departed the company but asked
not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
refunding consumers.
The company has had well-publicized problems with its
product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
admits serious production troubles, and when the company
launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
for weeks, in some cases, months.
But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
inferior components.
'This company has
made our radar
screen,'
-- JANICE MARICH
Spokesperson for the attorney
general's office
"This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
the company's practices.
The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
air complaints.
"We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.
AOL in talks to enter PC biz
Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC
The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
problems began after that.
There have been other
sources of confusion,
too -- such as when
the company was
actually founded.
Latman contends things will be different this time around --
the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
1998.
On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
an annual report.
The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
shrugged it off as a technicality.
"It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
Latman said.
There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
Latman:
"Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
separatenesss between Latman
Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
been ordered, several former employees contend the company
has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
having the money.
This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
never received the gown.
MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
state taxes.
"I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
bankruptcy.
"I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and
the business failed."
When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
Latman declined.
Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
goal was to be a writer."
Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
Here is the very very correct url for the piss toaster
... and Microworkz."
...
This was on www.nbcnews.com---->
Here is the link...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp
--->
ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
troubles.
Two top managers who departed the company but asked
not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
refunding consumers.
The company has had well-publicized problems with its
product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
admits serious production troubles, and when the company
launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
for weeks, in some cases, months.
But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
inferior components.
'This company has
made our radar
screen,'
-- JANICE MARICH
Spokesperson for the attorney
general's office
"This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
the company's practices.
The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
air complaints.
"We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.
AOL in talks to enter PC biz
Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC
The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
problems began after that.
There have been other
sources of confusion,
too -- such as when
the company was
actually founded.
Latman contends things will be different this time around --
the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
1998.
On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
an annual report.
The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
shrugged it off as a technicality.
"It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
Latman said.
There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
Latman:
"Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
separatenesss between Latman
Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
been ordered, several former employees contend the company
has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
having the money.
This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
never received the gown.
MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
state taxes.
"I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
bankruptcy.
"I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and
the business failed."
When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
Latman declined.
Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
goal was to be a writer."
Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
Guys/Galls Read this before getting sucker punched...Good luck all..Do not waste you greenbacks...
... and Microworkz." ...
This was on www.nbcnews.com---->
Here is the link...
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/284751.asp
--->
ACCORDING TO COMPANY sources, the top management
team -- the chief operating officer, the chief financial officer, the
chief information officer and the comptroller -- resigned in the
past month. Latman confirmed the departure of CFO Brian
Lofquist, saying he was fired for causing some of Microworkz's
troubles.
Two top managers who departed the company but asked
not to named said they left because of ethical concerns with the
company's business practices -- specifically, the company's
inability to deliver its products as promised and its sluggishness in
refunding consumers.
The company has had well-publicized problems with its
product line. In March, Microworkz.com shook the PC world with
announcement of the $299 Webster Jr. PC -- the deal included
one free year of Net access from Earthlink. But Microworkz now
admits serious production troubles, and when the company
launched the product April 19, it wasn't able to fill many orders
for weeks, in some cases, months.
But despite the problems of fulfilling orders, the company
nonetheless charged its customers' credit cards. Not long after,
the Better Business Bureau of Western Washington and the
Washington State attorney general's office began receiving
complaints; about 100 in all, according to Latman. Janice Marich,
spokesperson for the attorney general's office, said the
complaints included outright failure to deliver PCs, failure to
refund money, and allegations that PCs were shipped with
inferior components.
'This company has
made our radar
screen,'
-- JANICE MARICH
Spokesperson for the attorney
general's office
"This company has made our radar screen," Marich said,
declining to say if an official investigation has been launched into
the company's practices.
The Better Business Bureau has received similar complaints,
and Microworkz "has an unsatisfactory business record," according
to a BBB report. Frustrated consumers also set up a Web site to
air complaints.
"We're only talking about 100 people," Latman said. "That's
not a huge amount." He said problems stemmed from inadequate
computer systems, which caused lag time before refunds could
be sent to consumers. Latman says he has put those problems
behind the company now, claiming PCs now ship within seven
days and all refund request complaints have been cleared up.
AOL in talks to enter PC biz
Microworkz iToaster: a $199 PC
The iToaster is set to launch July 15, and Latman says the
company is geared up to make the boxes on time this time --
with a production line that would be capable of perhaps 150,000
to 200,000 machines a month. A similar statement was included
in the company's April 19 press release about the Webzter: "The
company has the capability to produce 200,000 computers per
month," that release said. The company's well-publicized
problems began after that.
There have been other
sources of confusion,
too -- such as when
the company was
actually founded.
Latman contends things will be different this time around --
the company has said it will only take orders for 10,000 of the
boxes at first to ensure it can fill demand.
Still, some of the iToaster's features seem to be in flux.
Latman told an MSNBC reporter at the PC Expo trade show in
New York earlier this month that the operating system was a
mixture of Linux and BeOS. But he told CNBC on Friday that
objections from the Linux community changed his mind -- the
first iToasters will have Be and a proprietary "front end."
There have been other sources of confusion, too -- such as
when the company was actually founded. Its Web site says
Microworkz was founded in 1991 as an independent custom
software vendor. The company told the Better Business Bureau
it was founded in 1996, and employees tell MSNBC the actual
start date was early 1998. It was incorporated in November of
1998.
On June 6, the company's status as a legal corporation was
dissolved by the Washington Secretary of State's office. The
most likely reason, according to a spokesperson, was failure to file
an annual report.
The consequence: the company can still conduct retail
business, but it cannot conduct any corporate business. The CEO
shrugged it off as a technicality.
"It's a piece of paper that has to be filed once a year. Some
attorneys do it on time. I called the lawyers in and they waved it
off laughingly. They said they do it in November of every year,"
Latman said.
There are other legal troubles for the company as well -- it's
being sued by PC parts supplier Amptron International Inc. for
allegedly failing to pay $41,930 in bills, and bouncing two checks
in December of last year. The suit lashes out personally at
Latman:
"Latman has, and is still, utilizing Microworkz as his alter ego
by so dominating, controlling, and influencing Microworkz's assets
and activities for his own profit, by so failing to satisfy any
corporate formalities such as a proper maintenance of minutes,
director's meetings, etc., by so commingling his personal funds
with Microworkz, and by so failing to establish and/or maintain a
level of capitalization sufficient and/or necessary to conduct
business, as to create a unity of interest and destroy any
separatenesss between Latman
Former employees describe Latman as charismatic, inspiring
Microworkz employees by comparing the company to Dell
Computer Corp. But the former employees all said Latman often
promised more than he could deliver. And despite several
statements from the company that 50,000 Webzter PCs have
been ordered, several former employees contend the company
has received only between 2,000 and 3,000 orders.
There are other troubles for Latman, too. He's being sued
by his co-investors in a Seattle-based porn Web site venture
called Dream Haus Inc. According to the Puget Sound Business
Journal, partners say Latman bounced $22,000 worth of checks,
and created a contest on their site. www.coolchicks.com, with a
grand prize of $50,000 without their consent -- and without
having the money.
This is not the first venture Latman has been involved in
which had trouble delivering merchandise. MSNBC has learned
that 19 small claims judgments were issued against a Beverly Hills
bridal shop run by his wife, Bettina Latman. Richard Latman is
personally cited on half of them. Several of those were initiated
by consumers who complained they left a deposit on a dress, but
never received the gown.
MSNBC research turned up another 26 judgments of one
kind or another against Latman or his wife, including three hefty
tax liens: he owes the IRS $225,000, and $47,000 in California
state taxes.
"I don't doubt that. But what does this have to do with
Microworkz?" Latman said when told of the judgments. He said
the liens still exist because the couple chose not to declare
bankruptcy.
"I wear that failure as a badge," he said, referring to the
failed boutique. "I was involved in counseling her [on the
business]. The reality is the business was poorly planned and
the business failed."
When asked to offer prior technology industry experience,
Latman declined.
Before founding Microworkz "I was going to write software
on a boat," he said. "I have written several dramatic plays. My
goal was to be a writer."
Got a tip about this story? Write to tipoff@msnbc.com
[sorry about the AC post]
It seems to me that the sales rep has described a situation difficult to wriggle out of:
1) If it is truly a linux/BeOS hybrid (which the rep appears to distinguish from "pure" linux) then there is a violation of the GPL. The sales rep needs an education in the term "derived work".
2) If what most people have been saying is true - i.e. that it is only BeOS, and they are just using the Linux moniker to be 'buzzword compliant', then what people seem to be missing is that this is a misrepresentation of their product, and an infringement of a registered trademark.
There is simply -no- way to interpret their marketing without this product, or the marketing thereof, being a legal infringement. It either violates the GPL, or violates Linus' trademark rights. There is no in-between.
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. I am, however, a law student. Take the above with whatever dose of salt you deem appropriate.
Anonymous Coward asks:
Yes, but if you let anyone have the source code, can they not legally distribute it themselves for nothing? (ie. If the cow-orkers[moo-grunt!] got the source, then I'm sure one will run Linux and be smart enough to give it away...)
Of course they can. The sticking point was how far the distributor is required to go in distributing source; once it is distributed, it can be spread to the four winds.
It's moot anyway for the moment, since under the GPL they don't have to distribute a single line of source to anyone unless and until they distribute something with GPLed binary or object code.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
rew asks:
Hmm. Suppose they never ship a binary. So when the customer recieves the box, you hit "install", and it says "Please wait", crunch, crunch "Done!". In the "crunch crunch" it compiled the modified GLP-ed components....
That's a tough one. If the place where the box gets the source is generally accessible, there's no problem at all, everyone's happy. If it is not, it violates the spirit of the GPL, but possibly does not violate the letter of the GPL.
The best argument against such a system is found in Section 3: The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. Therefore, if the transmission is not in a form that anyone can modify, it is not source code.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
luge wrote:
Not quite... while you are correct about the download issue, source must be available to anyone for whom binaries are available, in the same medium. I.E., if [GPL] binaries are *publicly* available on CDs, [GPL] source must also be *publicly* available on CDs- not just to those who pay for binaries, but also to others in the general public. If binaries are only available to your co-workers or people within your corporation, then you need only make source available within your corporation.
The GPL says no such thing. To summarize section 3, you can distribute binaries, provided you either:
* include source in the distribution
* include a written offer to send any third party the source in machine readable format for no more than the costs incurred in supplying the source
* pass on the above written offer from the person whom you got the GPL code from
It says later in the section that if you get the source by copying it from somewhere, you can "distribute" the source by giving them the same information and access to copy it that you have.
You do not need to make GPL source publically available, you can limit your distribution to just the people you do business with by shipping the source on the same CD as the binaries. If you do offer to ship source, you have to accept requests from anyone, but you don't need to tell everyone about it, merely the people you ship binaries to. Clearly the easiest way to comply is to make it publically available from a Web or FTP site, but it is by no means a requirement of the GPL.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
I think that the 'appendix A' IS necessary, as the GPL says you have to tell the user where to get the software.
Don't flame these people, and read the Linux-Advocacy HOWTO.
-- Erich
Slashdot reader since 1997
Well, my Mac Classic boots in 14 seconds (all the classics boot _real_ fast w. system 6). Your point is?
You obviously don't know the Classics. We are specifically talking a Mac Classic, normal HD, running system 6 without any extensions. It boots in fourteen seconds from flipping the switch to being able to select or launch something in the Finder. You totally don't know Classics very well. They may not be good for much, but every one I've seen boots insanely fast. I think a lot of stuff was simply stuck in ROM, though I haven't inspected the Classic ROM anytime lately.
Actually, it boots in _thirteen_ seconds from switch to Finder, but I called it fourteen because thirteen was unlucky (you see? it _was_ unlucky! takes it a whole extra second now!)
My 9500 which is the _serious_ machine (and dualboots linuxppc, of course) takes much much longer to boot, over 30 seconds. So did my old performa 575. Classics are very special in some ways, and they boot up so fast it'd make your head spin- I think if you start giving them system 7 etc. then it slows down, but I'm sorry, I've timed it and you are flat wrong. It _is_ damn near an order of magnitude faster to boot than your G3. What's so wrong about that?
Perl is available under the GPL or the Artistic License, at the option of the user.
There's nothing wrong with this (unless you view making the GPL virus optional wrong).
Posted by EZ E:
I don't claim any sort of expert status on the GPL, but I once read a statement about the GPL that came with an old version of GCC explaining the intent, written by Richard Stallman.
Posted by EZ E:
(Sorry about premature posting on the last one... damn tab button)
I don't claim any sort of expert status on the GPL, but I once read a statement about the GPL that came with an old version of GCC explaining the intent, written by Richard Stallman.
This document made it pretty clear that the intent was only to ensure that code, once GPLed, could not subsequently be removed from the public domain. That is, whatever code you got under GPL, you may not restrict distribution of in any way. This does not exclude (the document explicitly said so!) developing proprietary binaries that use the GPLed code, as long as you only restrict the parts you have added. Stallman explained that this allowed companies to use open source code in proprietary programs without needing to copyright and eat up the existing public domain code.
Seems to me that Microworkz is allowed to do what they're doing. Was this document wrong or spurious? Has the GPL been changed? Has anyone asked Richard Stallman?
Posted by Ignorant_American_Bastard:
Mwahahahaha!!!! WEINER!
I'm not sure exactly how this portion of trademark law works, but is the Linux trademark still enforcable despite the fact that Linus has set relatively relaxed usage terms? (i.e. The terms are lax, but they ARE clear, so any violation of those terms constitutes an enforcable violation of the trademark?)
Does anyone have a pointer to the status/licensing terms for the Linux trademark?
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
The next question is ARE THEY???
There's only one way to find out: The Buzz-Word Counter
Werd.
I was told at the Be booth at PC Expo Tuesday that the iToaster is 100% BeOS with some modifications (custom desktop, etc). I specifically asked if there was any Linux code and was told "No, although marketing has led people to believe that there is (followed by a heavy sigh)".
I tried the iToaster proto at their booth. It was REALLY, really nice. It DID boot in less than 20 seconds. I would say, the prototype set-top Be demo'ed next to it (kinda going a step beyond into delivery of all kinds of multimedia content channels) really blew me away.
-DougMan, CEO tomorrowsounds Inc.
www.tomorrowsounds.com
This is very unlikely to happen given the great number of Linux kernel contributors, but it's possible.
Perhaps you intended to argue that users of software licensed under the GPL can not make proprietary the modifications to said software. This is true if, as you said, the changes are ever published.
One never can tell...
Mediafiles eat up drivespace real easy. Some of are already past our 2G of mp3s...
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Just get the name Linux on it and people will buy it. Even if they gave out some source code to compile instead of running a binary, Linus only admits into the kernel 1 out of every 1000 hacks he recieves so it would just be a curiosity.
I would presume their marketing dept. wanted to say something along the lines of:
"Uses Linux structures" or
"Linux compatible"
or some such nonsense..
I think RMS was Lenin in a past life.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
I highly doubt that any part of the Linux kernel is involved with the iToaster. I'm admittedly not an expert, but BeOS and Linux kernels have *completely* different architechtures. Mixing the two would be all but impossible technically. Also, what would be the benifit? BeOS does a fine job at everything they need. It's perfectly capable of memory management, filsystems, networking, graphics and multimedia. There really is no reason for them to touch Linux if they've got BeOS.
... it's a trademark violation. Calling something Linux when it is not Linux doesn't work. I could just as well make up a new carbonated beverage and call it Pepsi just because everyone knows what a Pepsi is, NOT!
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Just fiddling with the code to see what happens, usually I just screw things up ;-)
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
>You can not make a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period.
I have already made a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period. It is currently running on a box at home. Period. The source is not and will not be made available for download. Period. I have not violated any feature of the GPL. Period.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
- W. Wriston, former Citibank CEO
Remember, it's not a violation until we know it's a violation. There may not even be any GPL'd code involved. As someone else pointed out, the people who claim "BeOS/Linx hybrid" are marketing people. Most of them don't know a phone jack from an ethernet port.
Jumping on this too quickly, and too harshly, could do more harm than good. Even if, when this does come out, a GPL violation is found, remember that it may be accidental -- and respond first with a tactful notice. If the programmers are typical, they will immediately take steps to correct the violation... if not, then legal action might be explored by the community.
Either way, the community as a whole will get a lot farther using dignity and tact than sending off flame. Think about it: how would you respond to a literal flame? Extinguish it... is that what we want? I thought not.
Please, please, read the Advocacy HOWTO.
Posted by the Proteus
We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
Everybody is jumping on the conspiracy theory band wagon. Remember that marketing releases are generated by, well, marketing people. So for instance a statement from engineering such as: The iToaster runs the BeOS operating system and a core system of GPL'd utilities familiar to anybody who has used the Linux operating sytem. The marketing interpretation of the same statement: The iToaster runs a BeOS/Linux hybrid. It makes marketing people warm and fuzzy inside, its fully buzzword complient. It uses the word hybrid and thats a cool word.
Give the iToaster people the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out that they are violating GPL then voice your righteous indignation, but do it politely. Remember that the Open Source community is trying to gain acceptance. If you're a member of the mob mentality you're just another anchor around the neck of Open Source.
It's a cheap machine, 300 bucks, I'll buy one. If I find any code derived from Open Source code I'll make it known. I'm sure others will do the same.
You only need to make it availble. Under linux the only thing most people want on their machine is the kernel source. Putting it on a cdrom in this day and age is kinda of silly.
A better aproach is put it on an ftp, and offer to ship someone a cdrom upon request. There is a fair chance that no one ever request it, and if you handle the request right you come out looking like a good guy.
Besides if I'm going to work on the source I want the latest source not some stale cdrom.
As for diskless boxen you don't need to ship source with them. There is no code install on them. You'd need to provide source in some way for the server programs if you provide them.
The gpl is very loose on how you provide the source.
IANALBIPOOGL (I am not a Lawyer, but I play one on GrokLaw.)
Tivo one of those new MPEG2 recorders like ReplayTV uses Linux exclusively, has anyone found out when they are going to be releasing their changes to the Kernel? Paul. ---
No, this works via transfer. If Company X makes binaries of GPLed code available on CDs (by selling them, or giving them away), and I get one from them, then they have an obligation to me to make the source code available on my request. If I then lend my CD to you, it is I who then has the obligation to make source available to you on your request, not Company X.
The GPL does not require someone using GPLed code to make their changes available for download. The GPL only requires that someone who distributes binaries built from GPLed code to make the source code available to those who received the binaries, upon their request under reasonable terms (only a copying fee).
Thus, the only way to determine whether there is an actual violation of the GPL in this case is to buy the product and check whether it is accompanied by the source or an offer for the source.
Wasn't this thing supposed to run some kind of Linux utilities or something? I find it highly unlikely that they modified the linux kernel to run BeOS or BeOS components... besides being illegal if undistributed, that level of integration would be a waste of time. It probably just runs Be and some ported Linux apps.
All this is just idle speculation though.
My understanding is that it's not meant to be upgradeable at all. In addition to being misreported as a Linux box, it's really a misrepresentation to call the iToaster a normal PC--it's closer to a cross between WebTV and the Canon Cat (a really cool piece of hardware partially designed by Mac designer Jef Raskin). This is not aimed at the typical Slashdot crowd, or even pretend power users; it's aimed at people who want to be able to surf the net and do "computer-like things" like word processing and spreadsheets, without actually buying a computer.
As for what they might be taking from Linux, I doubt it's much of anything but buzzwords. Non-tech people know the name Linux and go "ooo" when it's mentioned; Be doesn't have that luxury. There'd be little point in porting X to BeOS for this kind of device.
IIRC, wasn't there some hoopla a couple months back that BE was using LILO? Engineering geek says "The BEos is booted up by the Linux Loader" and marketdroid interprets as "BE/Linux hybrid"
I've been on slashdot so long I'm starting to get out of touch with the cool stuff if it ain't on slashdot.
Hmph. If this is the case, consider acquiring a better better half! :-)
Not so much a sig as a lack of one.
This sounds like an awesome idea, but my old $10 toaster works just fine, and how are they going to deal with the heat, and the crumbs?
I don't know about you, but if I forget about my pop tarts one morning, I don't want my whole web server going down in flames.
It had better be secure out of the box, or we'll have a lot of newbies screaming "L3gg0 my 3gg0!"
Thanks, but no thanks. I think this stuff is getting a bit out of hand.
--
#19845
could they be referring to gnu utilities? things like bash are on be systems. and there was a port of gimp available, yes?
if so, it would seem to lend weight to rms's gnu/linux complaint (though i still think it's a silly request).
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Actually, Be apps tend to be very very compact. So much so that it'd take me twice as long to download a comparable program on my Mac partition as on the Be side of things.
:>
It really is a 'clean' OS - it'd be cleaner if they'd get rid of all that X86 cruft, though.
- Darchmare
- Axis Mutatis, http://www.axismutatis.net
- Jeff
don't forget that Gobe Productive, the office suite bundled with it is perfect for this kind of thing. It's also easy to use and takes advantage of the OS's capabilities. Wordperfect is still a port and it's very complicated for beginners. BeOS and Gobe make a good package for the sub $500 market
---
Ah... spoken like a true Anonymous Coward.
Did you feel as though you had done the Linux/GNU/OSS community a service after writing that email?
"Don't sweat the technique."
>I think RMS was Lenin in a past life.
And in the current one, an asshole? I've had friends who've had to deal with him over code recently...
Linux may be great kids, but Communism is tired. To say the least.
Hmm. Suppose they never ship a binary. So when the customer recieves the box, you hit "install", and it says "Please wait", crunch, crunch "Done!". In the "crunch crunch" it compiled the modified GLP-ed components....
Roger.
When I first read the title of this article I thought that it was a joke talking about this.
Well maybe it's just because I really haven't be paying to much attention to Microworkz, I'm just not in the market for something like it.
AIUI, If they distributed a product with a Linux kernel, they would have to make the source available for no charge other than handling costs, modified or not. Now, here's where I'm not so sure: is it enough for them just to say "get it from www.kernel.org"?
But this is all pretty academic anyway, since it looks like this iToaster doesn't run Linux.
Just one week after the last award for players in the October embedded contest, the battle rage on. BeOS gets the
9 9/June.html
point after the rumor of talks between Microworkz.com and AOL. It may happens that AOL will distribute this device for
free in exchange to online subscription fees. The small iToaster can take this new market by storm. What else to say...
Do you know that BeOS is written on C++?
http://www.ecsl.cs.sunysb.edu/~andrew/awards/19
Andrew
We've always wanted a case to test the GPL! Well, here it is... (There are no other posts but I won't do the obligitory first post ;-)!)
Or this could be a case of using BeOS and calling it linux becuase it's unix like and to the public at large linux is most easily identified as the linux like OS.
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!" - The Tick, The Tick
" If you own the copyright, you can re-license your
copyrighted material under any other license you choose, conflicting
with the GPL or not."
THANK YOU!!! I got moderated down (and maybe flamed, I didn't check) for saying almost this.
I did make the mistake of saying "original author"
when I menat "copyright holder", but I wasn't wrong.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I saw one of these things in the middle of the Be booth @ pcExpo. The boot is all manned by real Be staff, so you should be able to get a decent answer out of them. I didn't play with it much, but it seemed like it was a custom program/interface running on straight Be.
R4 and R4.5 come with the most all of the GNU Utils, and use GCC as the compiler. That is more likley the part that is "Linux"
To some extent, a lawsuit = free advertising. And all they'd have to do if they lost is change the name to, say, Internet Toaster. (Would a fine be likely? How could Apple prove damages?)
Come to think of it, iToaster also sounds a lot like the Video Toaster of NewTek fame.
How about iTV instead?
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
The same a what everyone else has been saying. That is, this thing runs BeOS, not Linux. BeOS includes lots of GNU utils in order to run the shell, boot the system, and other bits and pieces. However, this does not make it Linux any more than FreeBSD is Linux.
-josh
"This is exactly what people have been waiting for," said Rick Latman, Microworkz.com C.E.O., "...And because it's not a Windows environment, it's virtually crash proof."
That aside, sounds to me a lot like the marketroids are just saying it uses Linux because that is The Next Big Thing(tm) and hoping people won't call them on it.
Why is it that many people who claim to support standards have such atrocious spelling and grammar?
So basically some people in marketing thought that since Microworkz set this machine up to be stable and to network efficiently, and since Linux is known for stability and network efficiency, that they could say that the system was Linux based. A rather unwise thing to say when a community of supports is willing to pounce on anyone who tries to purloin GPLed code.
Hey folks, barely anyone has seen the thing yet. Let the people at least get it out the door before you all kill them. If what most people are saying is correct (that it is just a modified BeOS) the source to all modified GNU utils IS ALREADY available and always was at ftp://ftp.be.com and on the BeOS CD. So, settle down and let a cool product breath a little.
So, it looks like we'll have to purchase one of these and find out what it runs.
If it doesn't look usable, it might be simple enough to reformat the drive and load REAL Linux on it.
Whichever, it still looks like an interesting system. ("Interesting" in the meaning that Spock might use; I got beat up on this term a month or so ago.)
--
"May I have ten thousand marbles, please?"
Actually, this is very much in line with Be's current vision - they want to do set-top boxes and similar things.
Last time I looked, they were giving the OS away to any OEM who wanted to preload it on their PCs (thus the recent rash of announcements). I'm not sure if that extends to the iToaster or not, but I'm sure their fee is very reasonable.
D
----
I know the iToaster almost certainly runs Be only, but even if it does run Linux, I think they could legally not provide the source.
Why?
Because most likely they don't need to modify the kernel. Think about it - is their hardware not made from fairly standard PC components? Why would they need to modify the kernel?
D
----
You are right about the BSD license. That much is true. So, why in hell must you go calling names? If you are right but clueless, it leads one to wonder whether you are right just by chance...
First off, if the binaries are identical, or have large stretches of identical bits then they almost certainly have the same source (or some of). At least it's likely enough you could start questioning people in the company under oath.
Second, if it has identical behavior, it's probably identical code. Especially Bugs. GNU ls had a buffer overflow and printed out all Q's when you did such-and-such, so does this program. again, not proof, but enough to get a judge thinking.
Certainly if it has 'most all the same features, and works in 'most 'zactly the same way, people will notice THAT and start looking. Hey... funny.... my linux binary just ran fine on AIX... and I'm using undocumented interfaces..
You could... But is risky. Which will 'least discourage big companies from doing it.
GPL'd software can NEVER NEVER NEVER be released as anything but GPL'd software. You can not make a proprietary version of the Linux kernel. Period.
:)
By proprietary I (an 99.9% of everyone else out there) *do not* simply mean a changed or altered source, but closed-source alterations. In fact, the second right the GPL gives you is "this liscense, which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute,and/or modify the software."
Under terms #2
"You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any protion of it, thus forming a work based on the program,... provided...:
b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that is whole or part contains or is derived from the program or any part therof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License."
That mean GPL'd programs remain GPL'd no matter what (unless you keep the code to yourself, no distributing). No proprietary distributions, no secrets, nothing of that sort. Your statement "The GPL does not require someone using GPLed code to make their changes available for download."is completely wrong if that person is going to distribute his product (which these people intend to do).
Of course, I've believed from the begining that these people are full of bull, "BeOS and Linux hybrid".... Heck, through some more buzzwords in there while you're at it!
Read The liscence. Read the source. Then code.
You can make personal versions and change and never release the source, because you never release the version you make. But if you distribute, all changes must be pub.
If, as other posters have pointed out, Microworkz marketing made reference to Linux in the sense that "our product is really stable and has great networking capabilities", then that's great! It means that some really well-done Linux advocacy has been going on. Would you prefer them to say "combines the UI of Be with the unstoppable power of Windows NT"? I didn't think so.
I'll admit that they could have gone about their advertising a little better. It's confusing to say that the iToaster includes Linux but doesn't come with the source, and even worse when we find out that the product doesn't include Linux but uses the Linux(tm) trademark in their advertising anyway. Now if they had quoted a reviewer who said "it's solid just like Linux" then that would be OK. I guess their marketing department didn't run this by the legal department on its way out the door.
All in all, there are worst things that could happen than Linux becoming the generic term for small, stable, networkable operating systems.
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
The red flag for me in this article is "licensed and patented". What's their patent here? Have they patented something that will bite the Linux community later on? If they are just selling a product, it will succeed or fail as it will. If they have inappropriate patents, they can gum up everybody's works.
My better half likes porn almost as much as I do.
Although she prefers the videotaped varitey over the downloaded kind....
:-)
The problem here is, that the marketting dept was uninformed about GPL and stuff.
They wanted the name Linux, the almighty buzzword.
Development dept. who actually made the iToaster, and the Legal dept, who know about GPL,
may have been ignored, because "what do they know about marketting?"
This may have backfired at them,
Being that the slashdot crowd hates them,
and getting criticized from GNU and Linux developers (such in the mosix case).
OTOH it may have benefitted them.
They got some extra headlines and, and now everyone knows that they are good.
...I couldn't resist:
a quick peek at the iToaster
---
The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck,
---
I'm going to live forever, or die in the attempt.
- The iToaster runs BeOS 4.5.
- BeOS is good (my favorite OS...I'm using it now.)
;^) - Linux is good. Maybe my Mom can't use it (sometimes I can't either), but it has lots of great programs, killer source code, and a group of supporters with a lot of passion and drive.
- Microsoft and Windows are bad. You all know why.
- Anything that isn't Windows or wasn't written by Microsoft has a real nice chance of being good.
- The iToaster does not run Windows, and therefore has a great chance of being good.
- Bill Gates is the devil (just a theory...)
- BeOS and Linux people should stop fighting and unite against the Microsoft War Machine. Can't we all just get along!
RyanI'm not sure whether you are aware of this, but others may not be:
At a result of all the hoopla, the MOSIX code was eventually released under the GPL.
That's not the legal hoop I'm wondering about. I'm wondering how they plan on bringing an Internet appliance to market with a name beginning with a lowercase i and followed by the capitalized name without getting in some trouble with the legal department of a certain multi-billion dollar fruit company.
And even more to the point, who's going to take legal action.
Imagine MS hires someone to crack into Be's R&D systems and steal their kernal source. If they're caught, no problem. Be sues MS...
But, if MS grabs the latest linux kernel and compiles it as an NT subsystem (like the os/2 or posix subsystems that still come with NT today), then releases "WINDOWS 2001 With WINUX" without source.. Again, IF they're caught (pretty tough since MS doesn't supply source), will Linus put down the bong for a few minutes and sue MS?
_______
2B1ASK1
A 2.x hard drive will be utter overkill. After I installed the regular Intel BeOS version (R4.5), with all of the optional components (which are a huge disk waster, but they're all better off classified as "goodies" - images, videos, experimental code, etc), Gobe Productive, a paint program reminiscent of GIMP (called Becasso), as well as several different editors and a couple of different images viewers...
:)
My total hard disk consumption, on an 8.4G drive, was about 300M to 400M. So for Joe Average, a 2.xG drive will be sheer overkill unless they start downloading massive amounts of pornography.
The thing comes with GoBe Productive (www.gobe.com) for an office suite. It's running BeOS! The "Linux" stuff is probably nothing more than the already ported (by Cygnus) GNU toolset stuff.
My understanding from the press releases and info on Be-related news sites is that the iToaster will work with any ISP, and will be configured for the user's ISP before shipping. I don't know how the user would change the settings if they wanted to change ISPs after recieving the product.
I hate to break this to you, but they'd be dead
now if it weren't for the "x86 cruft." How long
do you think BeOS would last without support for
the G3 or x86?
-WW
--
Why are there so many Unix-using Star Trek fans?
When was the last time Picard said, "Computer, bring
sorry. that was too funny not to do...
BeOS has no UNIX in it, is not based on a UNIX kernal, it is completely original code. Somewhere there was a rumor started about BeOS being UNIX based, but it's not. It does have a bash shell and is POSIX compliant for the most part, however this misinformation that BeOS is UNIX underneath needs to be cleared up once and for all.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I run BeOS. The rules don't apply.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I run BeOS. The rules don't apply.
But Linux(R) is not a buzzword, it's a trademark. Trademark dilution in this case is not a good thing, for many reasons. Here's two:
Somebody buys an iToaster because it's "Linux buzzword compliant", takes it home, sets it up, and discovers it doesn't run his Linux apps, because it isn't really Linux.
or worse:
Because of trademark dilution, anybody can call anything Linux. Microsoft releases their next version of NT as "Microsoft Linux". Linux gets a rep as a crashy OS because of this (plus the problems of brand confusion as above.)
If the iToaster really contains no Linux then Microjerkz should get a very nice letter from a law firm on the behalf of Linus (the trademark owner), to cease and desist and issue a retraction at least as prominently as the initial announcment. Maybe the marketdroids really didn't know that Linux was a trademark. But they need to be formally reminded that it is.
(If it does contain Linux, then they have the GPL problem.)
-- Alastair
If it's undistributed, it can't be illegal. Reread the GPL. It only covers copying, distributing and modifying. They can do what every they want in their own labs. It's not until the release any of the software that they have to release the source code as well.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Well, I'm happy for the Be guys. I wonder how much Microwerkz pays for each copy of the OS + Gobe.
More to the point, it would be really cool if we could get linux into this kind of box (yes, I know there's a small set-top company using it, but there are a million set tops that run everything, we'll see which one wins).
Linux has three key problems in this department. The first is boot time. Anybody know of projects to build an insta-boot linux for embedded devices?
The second, the lack of a journalled file system, has been beaten to death. Consumers just want to be able to flick it on and flick it off. We'll see how ext3 does, but I wouldn't be surprised if it took a splinter filesystem to work with small consumer devices. They have such different needs from enterprise servers that they shouldn't necessarily have the same features.
The final kicker is XF86. Great software in many ways, and everything I've heard about 4.0 sounds incredible, but it's not small. Anybody have an update on some of the attempts to create a micro-sized graphics system (GGI and Berlin? I can't really remember). . .
--JZ
I don't know anything about Linus's rules for the Linux trademark, which may also apply; anyone have a URL for them?
Kid-proof tablet..
what i would like to know is how upgradable it is. I would love to have a machine dedicated for surfing (granted it will never run a proprietary hybrid of linux with anything, but ...) but the 56k modem is just not what i would look for. any idea if the machine can could come with ethernet easily connectable to roadrunner and getting the ip using dhcp? that would be sweet. call me spoiled but i think that it is only worth surfing the web if you can get a decent speed out of it. Perhaps if the chip is really that standard, then the machine is hackable. I wonder if taking the hard drive out, writing a boot sector to it from a different machine and putting it back would do anything. Anyways, my point is that the box itself sounds pretty cool. And I would love to get a diskless Celeron gateway/print/web server for $200. The question is if it is possible. If the architecture and chipset are standard, then it probably is possible. correct me if i am wrong.
as for GPL issues, they did not say they used the linux kernel which is GPL'ed and would raise problems. but they might have taken other stuff normally attributed to linux. like libraries (LGPL) or X a lot of which is binary. That would make sense because then they would simply use a video card with a binary-only driver. Additionally, they mention that they had to port Quake and other games, which is ridiculous if they used Linux. Quake would not have to be ported.
Well, back to work. 8)
I was thinking of how to intentionally fail my drug test... It would make a good memoir story someday.
Yeah, I was one of the people who submitted a link about this dual Linux/BeOS stuff.
However, then I read this story on ars which confirms what other people have been saying: it just runs Be.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
maybe this will be a chance to test the GPL in court to see what happens when someone tries to make OSS into proprietary software...
There's something in the description that's kind of interesting. It says that it has a built-in capability to restrict access to websites (for kids and other obnoxious family members) AND (and this is what got me) there will be a webpage set up where parents can view what websites their kids visited. :-/ ;-)
I wonder if they mean they will set it up so you can view your browser history on your local machine or if they will make this gadget report to their servers about what you've been up to. In other words: No more porn for those of you with a better half
This kinda bothers me, I would personally hate to have all the websites I visited logged on a remote system which might be accessible to (Insert name of curious person here). My boss wouldn't be happy if he would get a report on how much time I spent on slashdot
Message on our company Intranet:
"You have a sticker in your private area"
beauty is only a light switch away
Articles I've read said it IS upgradeable to ethernet. More I don't know.
This sucker is a network computer. Maybe when they say the system runs beos/linux, they mean client runs BeOs, server runs (unmodified) linux.
Didn't Jean-Louis Gasee say anyone who wanted to could pre-load BeOs, as a way of making the point about MS dominance (e.g. no one would anyway)?
Take a look at an old entertainment pack from microsoft, and look at their chess program. Then look at GNU chess for windows from the same era. If memory serves, it is the -exact-same- program. Anyone wanna try to get the source out of redmond? ;P
This is one problem I see with GPL, I mean not with GPL itself but with making GPL work. how can one be shure that GPL is being respected by propietary software houses?
What I mean is if I am a company, I could simply get linux code on the web alter it and then release my proprietary software. If I don't fall in the mistake of telling people I used linux in the first place how would people would know to file a law-suite?
And I used 'linux' in my example but it could be any program at all, just do "s/linux/xxxx/" and there you are.
And this could be happening right now, how can one be 100% shure that window, OS/2, AIX or any other OS don't have some part of the linux or other GPL code hidden inside it? We don't have access to source code of those system. And how about word, excel, word-perfect and etc...?
Right now many programs could be violating the GPL and we will never know that they are. It's near impossible, if not impossible, to discover that some program used some code within it, without the access to the code itself. And even if you have access to the code, this could be very hard as there are many forms of obscuring code (mainly C).
--
"take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
All I said was that there was infringement. I made no comment on how such an infringement ought to be approached, nor did I suggest that Microworkz ought to be jumped all over.
:)
Unless there's some clear, uncompromising abuse (which there likely isn't and won't be here) I fully endorse the 'no harm, no foul', 'live and let live' approach.
Sheesh: I said "lawyer", not "litigator".
Correct URL:
http://Microworkz.com/Products/i Toaster/iToaster.cfm
to share it around a little more. Someone posted the following poem by
Thomas Disch:
Lives there a man with soul so dead
He's never to his toaster said:
"You are my friend; I see in you
An object sturdy, staunch, and true;
A fellow mettlesome and trim;
A brightness that the years can't dim."?
Then let us praise the brave appliance
In which we place this just reliance.
And offer it with each fresh slice
Such words of friendship and advice
As "How are things with you tonight?"
Or "Not too dark but not too light."
it inspired me to create my own topical followup:
But now my friendly old appliance
Will not maintain his trusty silence.
Instead, although it makes me sad,
He showers me with banner ads.
His days of toasting bread are past;
He wants me to Make Money Fast.
He once was satisfied enough in
Browning up my english muffin
But now he fills my mail with spamsters!
He wants to show me dancing hamsters!
That is my tale, though it's depressin'.
To others let it be a lesson.
The dangers only now I see
Of Toaster TCP/IP.
I submitted this story, but I'm number 30 in the queue, and I wonder about my chances of actually getting it posted, so I'm also going to reply to this article.
MSNBC is saying AOL want's to use the iToaster for a branded computer. Read about it here
I submitted this story, but I'm number 30 in the queue, and I wonder about my chances of actually getting it posted, so I'm also going to reply to this article.
MSNBC is saying AOL want's to use the iToaster for a branded computer. Read about it here
Any of you write BeOS applications?
Since this machine doesn't have a CD or
floppy, it would be ripe for internet
delivered software.
But, how large are BeOS apps? Will the 2.x
gig hard drive be large enough?
I'm just full of questions.
I saw someone use this here the other day -- I like it a lot.
$ insmod humor.o
Simple enough... We should buy Linus an iToaster... he'll take a look at it... if it's Linux sue for the GPL, if it's not sue for copyright infringement!
Classic... either way Microworkz will not get away with it.
It looks to me like they were using the name Linux in part to take advantage of the current Linux hype. This in turn generates more favorable hype for Linux. Which is a good thing, right?
Now, if the product turns out to suck, and thus makes Linux look bad, *then* it would be appropriate to at least issue a cease-and-desist order and have them issue a press release explaining that they don't actually use Linux.
The ambitions are: wake up, breathe, keep breathing.
Laches only applies to trademarks and patents. Copyright is something entirely different and does not require such vigilant defence.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
"Remember, it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar."
Yeah, but it's easiest with bullshit.
Tell them that Linux CD's taste like candy and you'll see a sales spike.
Talisman
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
All of these comments have been about whether it runs BoOS or Linux, etc. But no one, to my knowledge, has addressed the question of the internet service. The machine connect to a Microworkz server? They would have a captive audience and could jack up the price of the service per month. If you don't want the Mindworkz service, or whatever service comes with it, can you choose a different service and still have the same functions? Or are you stuck with a $200 paperweight?
if(!toilet_paper) roll.replace(new roll);
This falls under Section 18.3 of the Good PR: "no harm, no foul" :) ... Honestly, please remember this when you get out of law school: just because something is *technically* illegal doesn't mean that it should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Sometimes it's better to privately correct the situation with a polite letter; it keeps people's opinions up and what-not.
If Linus jumps all over Microworkz, it will make other companies very fearful of Linux. It's kinda like when a dog bites a kid: people are more likely to shoot the dog first and submit it for rabies testing second.
Honestly, I wished more people would understand that laws must be applied with a little common-sense.
You on the other hand should probably read the Linux advocacy mini-HOWTO. Then you should write a polite letter apologizing for your immature behavior. I suggest that the fellow Slashdot readers also write a short, carefully worded e-mail to to Microworkz and the misinformed news agencies.
Remember, it's easier to catch flies with honey than vinegar.
If they are, in fact, legally using GNU products in their software and not using Linux code, we should develop a (polite!) campaign to have them use the once-discussed "GNU Inside" logo instead of mentioning Linux.
Of course, Linux probably has a slightly higher Q rating than GNU, so that may be an uphill struggle, as the marketers want the better name recognition. But it's worth a try, I think.
1) buy a 486, used
2) install Linux
3) surf
-=Knowledge of software commands does not mean mastery of concepts=-
It looks like marketing department won "Linux" in the Big Buzzword Bingo, maybe after some developer mentioned GNU to them.
... if they figure they can make it into the news with it, maybe they'll even try to sue themselves.
But hey, maybe someone could spark some more public discussion from that, thereby generating some positive publicity for GNU, Linux, BeOS, and even the iToaster.
Just an idea on how to hit the marketing dep. with their own weapons
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
A MicroWorkz employee emailed me anonymously after I sent an email to their sales address warning them about the implications of the GPL (or, alternatively, trademark law if Linux is not involved). The email included the mail I had sent -- so presumably the person is really an employee of MicroWorkz. The email said that the iToaster does not include Linux at all and that it is hoped that another party will be able to do something about this problem. So, it's official. We just need to decide how we would like our retraction served.