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Trying to fix HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto hamburger. There's got to be something better-- but XML is the same thing and worse. EMBEDDED MARKUP IS A CANCER. (See my article "Embedded Markup Considered Harmful", WWW Journal, 1997 or 1998.) The Web is a special effects race, FANFARES ON SPREADSHEETS! JUST WHAT WE NEED!. (Instead of dealing with the important structure issues-- structure, continuity, persistence of material, side-by-side intercomparison, showing what things are the same.) This is cosmetics instead of medicine. We are reliving the font madness of the eighties, a tangent which did nothing to help the structure that users need who are trying to manage content. The Xanadu® project did not "fail to invent HTML". HTML is precisely what we were trying to PREVENT-- ever-breaking links, links going outward only, quotes you can't follow to their origins, no version management, no rights management. The "Browser" is an extremely silly concept-- a window for looking sequentially at a large parallel structure. It does not show this structure in a useful way.

(emphasis added).
Ted raises some interesting points; it is hard for me to think that HTML is the be-all and end-all of information.
I don't know that his "zigzag" thing is ever going to get traction, but

If you think of Xanadu as a highly available redundant P2P document system mixing in TBL's Semantic Web and adding more automation, you get a bit closer to what Ted Nelson was trying to do with Xanadu.

http://xanadu.com.au/general/faq.html

Section two of the FAQ covers what a Xanadu system was supposed to entail.

This article (originally on Wired) covers some of the controversies that have broiled up:

http://aether.com/archives/the_curse_of_xanadu.html

If you can find Nelson's 1982 Datamation article it is pretty interesting but I couldn't find it anymore after some quick Google searches (YMMV).

Here's what Ted Nelson had to say about it:

"Cyber-" means 'I do not know what I am talking about'

"Cyber-" is from the Greek root for "steersman" (kybernetikos). Norbert Wiener coined the term "cybernetics" for anything which used feedback to correct things, in the way that you continually steer to left or right to correct the direction of a bicycle or a car. So "cybernetics" really refers to control linkages, the way things are connected to control things.

Because he was writing in the nineteen-forties, and all of this was new, Wiener believed that computers would be principally used for control linkages-- which is if course one area of their use.

But the term "cybernetics" has caused hopeless confusion, as it was used by the uninformed to refer to every area of computers. And people would coin silly words beginning with "cyber-" to expand ideas they did not understand. Words like "cyberware", "cyberculture", "cyberlife" hardly mean anything. In general, then, words beginning with "cyber-" mean "either I do not know what I am talking about, or I am trying to fool and confuse you" (as in my suggested cybercrud).

Indeed, that prefix really makes no sense. To quote Ted Nelson:

"Cyber-" is from the Greek root for "steersman" (kybernetikos). Norbert Wiener coined the term "cybernetics" for anything which used feedback to correct things, in the way that you continually steer to left or right to correct the direction of a bicycle or a car. So "cybernetics" really refers to control linkages, the way things are connected to control things.

Because he was writing in the nineteen-forties, and all of this was new, Wiener believed that computers would be principally used for control linkages-- which is if course one area of their use.

But the term "cybernetics" has caused hopeless confusion, as it was used by the uninformed to refer to every area of computers. And people would coin silly words beginning with "cyber-" to expand ideas they did not understand. Words like "cyberware", "cyberculture", "cyberlife" hardly mean anything. In general, then, words beginning with "cyber-" mean "either I do not know what I am talking about, or I am trying to fool and confuse you" (as in my suggested cybercrud).

Ahh, glad I looked for mentions of Project Xanadu before posting! Yes, this sounds like a rehash of the same ideas.

Existing is good.

Dun Malg says it better than I ever could. The process of gathering the meaning of a text is the process of sequentially reading the words. In this context, each hyperlink acts as a choice point which potentially breaks the process - should I continue reading the rest of the paragraph or should I follow the hyperlink into a whole new context of meanings? Multiplying the number of links only makes this problem worse. I yet fail to see how Xanadu would handle the real and fundamental "lost in hyperspace" problem which predates all hypertext systems I know.

Reading more about the Xanadu system I begin to appretiate how they could be onto something. The idea of transclusion seems the origin of what the Semantic Web is trying to accomplish, and pullacross editing looks like a good interface for a version-enabled process of document composition.

The main problem Ted Nelson faces might be that he's a very bad communicator - he may very well have truly wonderful ideas, but since nobody manages to understand what the hell he's talking about it's really difficult to support him.

I agree with this Wikipedia article that part of the problem could be that of availability - we were able to see and learn what the WWW was about because we had an early and simple Mosaic implementation of the concept, while we still waiting for a working full-blown Xanadu-like system. Until we get our hands on it, there's no hope that his ideal will become used in the wild.

http://xanadu.com.au/ted/ This guy is one of those folks who happened to have gone through the growing pains of the gui, hypertext world as it came to be (at least form its inception to its current state) i could say he is my crazy uncle but... 1. he is definately not crazy 2. he and my aunt just won't marry (but i still think of him as one helluva uncle) 3. he's pretty cool..

Greets!

It really is a poisinous, nasty piece of hatchet journalism, wearing nice clothes.

John's full reply is still archived and available at: http://xanadu.com.au/mail/xanadu/msg00258.html.

Ted's reply is also available:
http://xanadu.com.au/wolfsbane

And the c2 page http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheCurseOfXanadu

Adam Moore, Postdoc Researcher, ZigZag for Bioinformatics

Greets!

It really is a poisinous, nasty piece of hatchet journalism, wearing nice clothes.

John's full reply is still archived and available at: http://xanadu.com.au/mail/xanadu/msg00258.html.

Ted's reply is also available:
http://xanadu.com.au/wolfsbane

And the c2 page http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheCurseOfXanadu

Adam Moore, Postdoc Researcher, ZigZag for Bioinformatics

It was just a matter of time before a project of this scope got off the ground. I would like to see them team up with Project Gutenberg (and perhaps archive.org) to provide images of the material. Throw in the little transcoder and perhaps wikipedia and we will soon have a killer information resource that can be cross-referenced to silly proportions. This is a boon for research. Projects like this and the public library of science will add much to collective knowledge. It would also be nice to see them team up with the newspaper project! Next stop--public domain LOC!!!

On the heels of the parent post, people could go read about Ted Nelson. Xanadu has been in the making for 35 years. This is a fun read, but also see the rebuttal here.

There's also this article over at Kuro5hin.

On the heels of the parent post, people could go read about Ted Nelson. Xanadu has been in the making for 35 years. This is a fun read, but also see the rebuttal here.

There's also this article over at Kuro5hin.

Testify, Brother!!

The music never dies

Brought to you by the word "transclusion" and the letter "X"

Cheers,
*** Xanni ***

Here's a system Project Xanadu developed to support microversioning (including an implementation for emacs):

http://www.xanadu.com.au/ted/OSMIC/

Share and enjoy,
*** Xanni ***

Hmmm. I guess he never heard of Doug Engelbart. (Inventor of the "chord" keyboard, along with the mouse.)

I think "wacky" is inappropriately pejorative. A better word might be "radical". The Xanadu designs are ab initio, intentionally discarding much of modern computing that are historical relics such as directories, files and applications with their own file formats. There are better ways to do things, but asking people to give up what they have so painstakingly learned and start again is a very big ask - also a reason why many people are reluctant to switch to Linux!

The recent Xanadu work (since 1994) has focussed on breaking the problem down into individual features that can be implemented in existing systems including the web, which when put together amount to a full Xanadu system. Like Duke Nukem Forever or the Linux kernel, there is intentionally no release date, so you can't really call Xanadu vaporware either. For more information on the recent work see: www.xanadu.com.au

Share and enjoy,
*** Xanni ***

Charging a penny a page does nothing but give the user a right to view the page, which continues the lie of 'allowed usage' being propagated by the RIAA and other corporate bodies. Ted Nelson has been hawking his concept of Transpublishing alongside Xanadu for years. It describes a system where the user buys a right to use an item many times rather than a right to view it once. It also allows publishers to choose the amount they charge, and that charge can be nothing. Just as long as Microsoft or Verisign don't manage the payment servers it would be fine.

"Picture 1980. Ted Nelson is running around with his Xanadu guys: Roger Gregory, H. Keith Henson (now waging war against the Scientologists) and K. Eric Drexler, later to build the Foresight Institute. They dream of creating what is to become the World Wide Web. Nowadays guys at hacker cons might dress like vampires. In 1980 they wear identical black baseball caps with silver wings and the slogan: 'Xanadu: wings of the mind.'"

1994-current. Work continues on the second XOC fine-grain hyper-sharin transpublishing server, under Roger Gregory and Keith Henson.

o In 1992, the Church of Scientology had become the first religious organization in Canada to be convicted of criminal conduct. Specifically, stealing documents from law firms, public associations and government entities -- and breach of trust. In addition, in the Casey Hill litigation, Scientology was ordered to pay millions of dollars to Canadian lawyer, Casey Hill, for slandering his reputation.

Xanadu was made for this.
Joseph Elwell.

Xanadu is alive and well...kinda.

m.kelley
www.mkelley.net

Energy moves in waves. Our biosphere is sustained by the cycling energy of daily rotations and seasonal shifts. Each member of the food chain reciprocates what it gets with what it gives. But what is given back in free beer software?

The credo of those opposing Free or Open Source software movements is usually TANSTAAFL. As mentioned in this article, software from a business can be free to some (such as non-profits) while its net pricetag is subsidized by others. Yet, the GNU project and the standards of Internet weren't built by businesses as much as they were built by individuals, each taking the personal cost of contributing. (For instance, HTML was largely inspired by Ted Nelson's early quest for Xanadu.) Some are paid back in microcelebrity or even better jobs and grants. Others have given unconditionally without reward. These pioneers made the effort, not so much for money, as for the personal empowerment of software.

Love really does make the world go around: The thing that best guarantees success is for human attention and concern to be lavished skillfully on a goal. Sometimes it seems that corporations will totally rule the world... until the court of public opinion turns the tide against them. These are like yin and yang cycling over one another: Propriety-mindedness and control versus personal liberty.

We're seeing a turn of this cycle happen when businesses turn to businesses (B2B) in a trend away from catering to consumers (B2C). Consumer backlash sometimes sparks this trend. Still, consumers have little use for computers without personal empowerment, so they will empower their own. (C2C?)

Free Beer Software will flourish just out of the human attention it gets. One day, the wireless web will be so pervasive that we can call out URLs like incantations, summoning any manner of program to be carried out. Such a post-scarcity world will be glorious!

Credit for hypertext belongs to Vannevar Bush (As we may think) and Ted Nelson (project Xanadu).

Paul

Internet Overview

• Internet Timeline

Technical History

• Charles Spurgeon's Ethernet Web Site (several Ethernet historical documents here).
• I have a printed copy of an ALOHANET analysis, but can't seem to find one online.

Concept History

• As We May Think
• Project Xanadu ("Computer Lib/Dream Machines")
• The Cathedral and the Bazaar

If you look at my original post, you'll find I did reference Xanadu directly. I did my homework, and the brief description I gave of Xanadu was taken from their homepage. In the two brief paragraphs of intro, backwards link tracing is not mentioned, but the copyright/fee issue is discussed - it is obviously a priority for them.

Xanadu is an intelligent and noble idea, but it is doomed because nobody likes being nickle-and-dimed and because of the delays ;-) in development. I do appreciate Ted Nelson's contribution to hypertext and I agree with his pronouncemnet that some type of transclusive hypertext will be prominent in the future of publishing, but if he wants Xanadu to succeed, he's going to have to drop the royalty thing. Or hope that people contributing to the docuverse don't ask for royalties in the first place. Also, I don't know that a single source for information is really a good idea, even if the system involved does foster free speech and complexity. Like Dalzell said, 'The strength of the Internet is chaos.' The idea of having one docuverse bothers me, even though I know very well that it is designed to be resistant to tampering and all inclusive.

It's nice to see someone here talking about Ted Nelson's work, even in a backhanded and somewhat distorted way.

There is more to the Xandau concept than a hypertext system with a system of keeping track of royalites. As I understand it keeping track of royalties isn't really the hard part. For example, Xanadu is supposed to allow backward tracing of links, so that you can ask a question like "Who is talking about what I'm reading now, are there any rebuttals in existance?".

In any case, keeping track of the licensing of individual little pieces of code without something like Xanadu, that does sound like daunting task. Quite possibility daunting enough to discourage people from following up on this "COSS" proposal.

I'd suggest to anyone who's interested that they should get their information about Xanadu from some place a little more direct than Wired: Xanadu

There is a lengthy and unflattering discussion of the Xanadu story in this Wired article. Ted Nelson's response to this articel can be found here. Here's a quick summary:

Ted Nelson is credited as the inventor of hypertext. For the last thirty years or so, he has been working on a project called Xanadu, an effort to create a hypertext 'docuverse' where information may be included (or 'transcluded') into any document while preserving the author information for all pieces and preserving the author's ability to collect royalties for every single piece of his work that is downloaded, no matter how small a fragment. It sounds like a good idea, IMHO, until you get to the royalties part.

There are many lessons in software development that can be gleaned from the story of Xanadu. A lesson for COSS is that this type of system is ridiculously complicated, perhaps prohibitively so. And it is probably not even something that anyone wants. Another, more tangential, lesson for OSS in general is that lunatic leaders can be divisive and irritating enough to totally screw projects that are otherwise good ideas. But I digress.

Even if Xanadu software shipped tomorrow (there is actually a program called zigzag), why would anyone want it when html has so much more infrastructure? Similarly, I think that COSS will not be able to attract people away from pure OSS. COSS may be appropriate for companies like Apple that are trying to recruit more eyeballs, but I think that most of us will stick to truly free software. I think that OSS is doing fine, and it is certainly meeting my needs as a programmer and an end user. I'm sure that a lot of you out there feel the same way. And with every office package and video driver that is released, the number of people whose needs are met by pure OSS solutions increases. I don't think that current open source hackers will get involved with COSS, and thus it will suffer from the same problems that proprietary software has. It will not benefit from many bug-fixing eyeballs, and people who get involved with COSS are likely to be just looking for a quick buck, the sort of people who will find a way to subvert the COSS system for their own purposes. These people will try to confine the exchange of information in such a way that they make money. Again, like the Xanadu project.

Information longs to be free. It will not permit restrictions. This is not a moral judgement, it is just an observation.