Slashdot Mirror
Multimedia: From Wagner to Virtual Reality
Those traits aren't accidental, the authors say. They were the product of belief and deliberate intent on the part of multimedia's pioneers, who had very specific goals, many of them outlined in this collection. In fact, this is perhaps the best collection yet assembled on the early writings about multimedia, its aesthetics, visions, social impact and astounding potential on the emerging creative relationship between technology -- especially computing -- and human beings.
Packer teaches in the Department of Digital Arts at the Maryland Institute College of Art, and Ken Jordan is a pioneer in Web-based media, the founding editorial director of SonicNet.com and co-founder of the public-interest portal MediaChannel.org.
If you're not certain what multimedia really is or whence it came, Packer and Jordan assembled the best guide yet on a subject of central importance to anyone interested in the future of media, and the growing marriage between art and science. Some of these ideas are grounded in new thinking and research, some go back hundreds of years. The collection is historically significant, given that nobody has ever woven together the different threads, thoughts and impulses that become multimedia, a new form both of media and culture.
Packer and Jordan define the key characteristics intrinsic to computer-based multimedia as integration, interactivity, immersion, hypermedia, and narrativity.
Integration, by their definition, is the combining of artistic forms and technology into a hybrid expression. Interactivity: the ability of the user to manipulate and affect her experience of media directly, and, through media, to communicate with others.
Hypermedia, say Packer and Jordan, is the linking of separate media elements to create a trail of personal association. Immersion is "the experience of entering into the simulation or suggestion of a three-dimensional environment," and narrativity means "aesthetic strategies that derive from the above concepts, which result in nonlinear story forms and media presentation." (Blair Witch Project, for a lite example, or the book A Staggering Work of Heartbreaking Genius, by Dave Eggers).
"With the Dynabook in the early l970's," write Packer and Jordan, "Alan Kay invented a machine that incorporated all five of these characteristics for the first time, giving birth to digital multimedia."
But it is immersion which gives the Net and the Web their most radical impact on creativity, story-telling and presentation, and education.
In "Hypertext, Hypermedia and Literary Studies: The State of the Art (l991)," which is reprinted in this book, George Landow and Paul Delany write: "Hypertext...changes our sense of authorship, authorial property, and creativity (or originality) by moving away from the constructions of page-bound technology. In so doing, it promises to have an effect on cultural and intellectual disciplines as important as those produced by earlier shifts in the technology of cultural memory that followed the invention of writing and printing."
Although few people in the off-line world yet take it seriously, Landow and Delany foresaw the revolutionary changes in narrative, story-telling, messaging, culture (like gaming) and art that are one of the most significant characteristics of recent Net history.
Almost everyone reading this has a personal or business stake in multi-media, whether he or she knows it or not. Younger Americans are raised in interactive media environments, and it isn't that big of a stretch to say multimedia is one of the most significant influences in their thinking and learning.
Multimedia: From Wagner to Virtual Reality explains how what we call multimedia came about and presents its generally untold and unappreciated history. Specifically, the book sets out in five clear and well-organized parts to explain how the interfaces, links and interactivity that are taken for granted grew out of a series of collaborations between the arts and sciences going all the way back to composer Richard Wagner, whose ideas about the immersive nature of musical theater in many ways foreshadowed the notion of virtual reality. The book flows skillfully from one idea to the next, each section building on the one that preceded it.
The authors have gathered seminal -- often unknown -- writings on the multimedia age: the Futurists' 1916 manifesto on cinema, which suggested that the new medium would unite all media and replace the book; Vannevar Bush's famous 1945 Atlantic Monthly essay that sparked the idea of hyperlinks; J.C.R. Licklider's influential l960 argument that people and computers could one day collaborate in creative work; Nam June Paik's essay proposing that satellite technology might encourage a new kind of global information art; Tim Berners-Lee's l989 proposal for the document-sharing network that became the Web; Pavel Curtis's writings on MUD's and MUDDing.
Although the tech world is usually too busy to dwell much on history, it's interesting to be reminded again that no idea is really new, and to grasp some of the fundamental principles behind multimedia, an idea whose time has definitely come, and with a bang.
You can purchase this book at FatBrain.
You're right, and the fact that katz features it in his article is a testament to his cluelessness. I liked how he opened with "terms like open source and p2p are thrown around" when really it's that they're thrown around by *him*.
You Can't Beat Wagner's Meat.
IRNI
I know it's always said, but I don't think Wagner was Hitler's favourite composer in fact. I seem to recall reading somewhere that he listened mostly to operetta; and when something more serious was wanted, he favoured Bruckner. But no one ever calls Bruckner a "Nazi composer" just because Hitler liked his music. The idea is clearly absurd.
My point stands. Dictionary definitions are all well and good, but if you rely on Websters to tell you what "fascism" was or is, then I feel sorry for you. Lohengrin is a fascist opera? Yes, and I'm a Dutchman (non-flying variety).
I thought faster loading time was a benefit of vector-based animation and graphics. Is Flash slower than GIF animations when it comes to loading?
I guess I don't notice because I don't have any slow connections or machines.
Its a fact, I'm more likely to click on a Flash Banner, or something that is animated, than on a flashing gif. Humans respond better to multimedia. TV is the perfect example. How many people still go home and watch the news or current affairs shows? They could get 100 times more information if they surfed the internet... Another example, have a look at how many Visulization plugins there are for Winamp... I know when I'm in the mood for music, the Laptop gets hooked upto the stereo, and the 80cm Television, and on goes G-Force :)
Yeah, but this article is worse than fluff. It's fluffed fluff.
It appears to me that he read a nonsensical book published by braindead academics with a faulty hypothesis, an outdated outlook, and a flashy title. Now the true insult is that he claims this to be revolutionary work of genius. The truth is probably more like "I didn't understand half of the book, but the half I did get made multimedia seem really impressive."
Katz often falls into the trap of many academics. "I don't understand it, so I should probably praise it." Plus, a perusal of the Katz archives will show his undying love fest with "virtual communities", another term that gets the Katz slippery definition, etc... Going back to his Wired days and his rants on "geek culture", which he obviously does not know beans about, and the fututre of technology, see earlier sidenote, we begin seeing that Katz is not really a person with a finger on the pulse of anything but some made up words like "digerati".
Blatant misinformation aside, the Katz columns are little more than fluff. Here we have a silicon insider, and this is the best he can come up with??
Soon he'll claim that one out of twenty of his predictions were right because of blanket statements like "I was among the early group who believed in the future of multimedia", even though his thoughs on multimedia are far from revolutionary. Indeed, all those bytes to say nothing at all, just double talk and happy words, but rest assured, he is a visionary.
BTW, if you find his comments relevant and interesting, you may want to consider a lobotomy. Normal posters who do not make a living off of this generally have more interesting things to add to the conversation, and they even get their facts right sometimes.
Hmmm, if we moderated all of Katz's stories, what do you think his karma would be??
~Hammy
"Up yours! I already have a karma of 50...."
You mention Wagner and then completely fail to link to Deuce of Clubs! You should be ashamed.
What do I do, when it seems I relate to Judas more than You?
Still not dead.
As someone responsible for working to develop multimedia technologies to the classroom and desktop throughout a large land grant university in the US, I take exception to this.
While certainly there have been many idiotic purchases that fit your description, these have almost always been forced on us by our state legislature. Bad deciscions are going to happen regardless of what sort of technology we are discussing. It is the job of you and I and others like us to see that good technology decisions are made. As an example of good use of multimedia technology in the classroom, we have a professor using videoconferencing (h.323), a multimedia technology, to have a joint class on Islamic Studies with the American University of Cairo, all for a one time cost of less than $5000 including A/V integration... Oh, and the students happen to love it too.
wake up and find out that you are the eyes of the world.
Work on VR (actually, today it is termed Virtual Environments, and even that term is dropping out - use whatever is convenient) still continues. In fact, the majority and best work on it you already mentioned, kinda obliquely: 3D games (like QA3 and like).
There are a few people doing homebrew VR (see my site link), and others doing projects for military and commercial use.
I think what happenned is it got hyped too fast, too soon, before there was equipment to really do what people wanted to do on a cheap enough scale. Today, it is a lot easier for a homebrewer to get started (a lot of the equipment still has to be built - though a portion can be bought used), 3D engines that would have popped my eyes out in 1994 are free and fast, computers are powerful and cheap.
The other issue is applications - so far for most people that has been games, but fully immersive games even died out, at least in the US for the most part (W Industries was the leader - they still exist, actually - changed to Virtuality, Inc - now known as CyberVision Entertainment - still UK based, and release new products quite often, for those that can afford them). Don't know why (prices? liability issues? too much exercise?)...
In short, development still continues, but it is done very "under the radar", at least the work that is geared toward the whole "goggles and gloves" type full-immersion...
Worldcom - Generation Duh!
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
over the last half century, we have been inundated with non-interactive media broadcasts.
prior to this invasion there was no such thing as a non-interactive experience.
I parsed the title as From Wanger to Virtual Reality, and thought this was about pr0n.
I need more coffee. OkBYE!
k.
--
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people
are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
There's a good article in April's Scientific American on Lanier's new work on virtual presence using Internet2. It's been renamed "tele-immersion", apparently. It's a good way to soak up all that extra bandwidth.
Da Blog
The authors also have a dog'n'pony show of the book's contents here.
Da Blog
I have a problem with "pointing out" facts that are content-free. The words "open, democratic, nonhierarchical, ... inclusive" seem to be there, not for the meaning of the words, but as happysounds. They are Worship Words in bush-league academia; these academians like multimedia; therefore multimedia is Worship-Word-compliant.
By Wagner, we're talking about Richard Wagner, right? The 19th-century German composer of opera? Okay then, isn't it fair to stop somewhere between Wagner and VR, at Leni Riefenstahl? Triumph of the Will is a great film, and probably the best example of the multimedia of its day. In what way is it open, democratic, nonhierarchical, or inclusive?
The answer, of course, is that if that multimedia presentation was any of those things, Riefenstahl slipped. Triumph of the Will was a great, important, effective work. But -- obviously -- greatness, importance, and effectiveness are not the same as goodness, or service to good ends.
It is a fetish of modern academe -- in which scholars assure each other of their inclusivism as nervously as, in Red Scares past, they assured each other of their anti-Communism -- that only politically-approved things have virtues, and therefore anything one finds virtue in, must first be praised in political terms.
As the old saying goes "Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one". I would suffix that with "and there are plenty of people willing to share them with the world, given the chance".
Katz sticks out like a sore thumb. He actually writes. He is verbose. He doesn't just write a little one or two liner making a comment on what someone else said and pointing you elsewhere. He stands up and says "Heres what I think, and why".
He sets himself up as a target, so people who dislike what he says, stand up and give their opinions (sometimes those are their opinions of him rather than the subject at hand).
Now, thats how it works. On the occasions when other Slashdot editors have done the same, they get the same kinds of criticizems. If someone notices that one of them always posts and comments on the same topic in a certain way, it gets criticized. Thats just how it works, its human nature, you arn't going to change it.
At some point you just have to realise that people, epsecially in groups, are not always rational and polite.
There are those who take advantage of the fact that people don't behave in rational manners, and do things that "don't make sense" to a person who is trying to understand it. They are called "advertisers" or "politicians".
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
it's great that Jon Katz organizes his thoughts and the facts
"Jon Katz" and "facts" in the same sentence. Now I've seen everything...
G.H.
If you mod me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
Just wait till some crappy band steals your nic.
Do you remember PCs that were MPC1 or MPC2 certified? I always wanted to have me one of them fancy MPC2 PCs but they were out of reach of nearly everyone when they came out.
What ever happened to "Virtual Reality" anyway?
5 years ago people like Jarron Lanier (sp?) were prancing about spouting the amazing benefits that strapping 20 pound headsets to everyone (doctors, pupils, scientists, etc) would have(and what ever happened to VRML, anyway?). Now where are we? The closest thing we seem to have to VR is Quake III.
I understand there are probably alot of academics still playing with this stuff, but where are the real world applications? Did this stuff die, or just get pushed to the back burner by the "e-commerce" revolution?
http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
"Hypertext...changes our sense of authorship, authorial property, and creativity (or originality) by moving away from the constructions of page-bound technology."
;-)
I realise this is a quote from another source, but I'm don't think that's true. Just bcos I can navigate to anywhere I want in a website, it doesn't give me any feeling of ownership over the site. The old choose-your-own adventure books in the 80s were fun, but you always knew Steve Jackson or whoever had written them. And real creativity isn't possible in a multiple-choice environment (eg. the options of "open the door boldly and fight/open the door carefully and backstab" don't cover the third option of "get some drapes from the last room, soak them in the pool of oil in the room before that, and burn the buggers out").
Nor does linking change anything. Essentially, all linking does is tell your readers how to find source material or related information - it doesn't mean, for instance, that 2600 actually owns DeCSS (a point on which the US legislature need to get a clue).
Authorship and authorial property are another point. There's a long history of breaking copyright by copying music for your friends - hell, that's the only reason to have a twin-deck tape player! We always knew it was technically wrong, but we did it anyway bcos we couldn't afford to buy as much music as we wanted - and the same goes for copying computer games on tape. Napster and co have just made it easier to break copyright law. But there's still no argument over the author of the music - regardless of who you pirated it off on Napster/Gnutella, you still know that the music was written by Metallica or whoever.
The more I see articles about "the Web changes everything", the more I realise that the article-writers (and book writers in this case) need a clue. Certainly it's changed things, but it's only changed them in the way that it's made existing interactions (passing information, copying music onto tapes for your friends, getting pr0n, etc) easier and/or more convenient than before. The telephone made it easier to interact with people on the other side of the country (or the other side of the world), but people still managed to communicate before it came along. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
Grab.
PS. Yes I do know the original French, but many Americans probably don't!
I wish people would stop spending their time on Slashdot trying to prove others wrong, and instead perhaps try and give their own insight about a certain topic. It would definitely make for a much better experience.
I think it's great that Jon Katz organizes his thoughts and the facts on various topics that are extremely relevant and interesting, and then publishes them for us to read and think about. Unfortunately, too many readers of Slashdot have such low self-esteem that they feel it's necessary to put others down out of sheer envy of their intelligence, knowledge, or wit.
Well, that's the end of my thought. Here ya go trolls and flamers, have fun replying to this one. : - (
If you celebrate Xmas, befriend me (538
heh, no kidding. I think this is just another Katzism: I never knew there was mass confusion around the word multimedia. Actually, I've found quite the contrary. Most people I talk to, tech savy and computer illiterate, have a firm grasp of the word multimedia and all of its coherent themes. jeez.
But what do I know?
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." - Jack Nicholson
Sure, it's nice to have all course notes online and see flashy videos
that explain what otherwise would have been explained using a sketch
on the black board. The problem is, that providing content in all the
new media takes an enormous effort but it is unclear whether it pays
off. It might be better to put the energy into better homework
assignments and more personal time. One solution would be to share
media-rich documents for re-use; but this is the last thing I see
happening at universities because of the "not invented here" syndrome.
At the beginning was at.
Anti-semitism != fascist.
Fascism is a much broader term than you seem to think it is. See my reply to the previous post.
As for the Wagner/Verdi thing, you should maybe do a little more research...
A university degree in the field of Music Education is not enough to comment on Wagner and german nationalism in a slashdot thread? If anything, I should remove myself as having done too much research on the topic, instead of talking out of my ass along with the crowd.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Fascism can be (and often is) simply defined as philosphy which values the nation (or race) above the individual. Not just the self, but all individual.
Using this definition, the character Elsa most certainly was a fascist hero. Not because it was a "selfless" act. It was an act which put loyalty to the nation above all other considerations. The lesson of Lohengren is that true love takes a back seat to patriotism.
I'm not flaming you, I am simply trying to point out that the line between fascism and patriotism is simply a degree of extremism. To love your country is nationalism; to love your country enough to fight for it is patriotism; to love your country enough to round up all foreigners into death camps in order to "purify" your race... now we are talking about fascism.
Wagner did say, and I quote "we should burn all the Jews". His comments concerning his motivations behind writing the Ring Cycle also reveal a desire to express the supremacy of northern Europe. If that sort of thing does not fit your definition of fascism, I am eager to learn what it does.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I meant "fascist", as in extreme nationalism to the point of jingoistic hatred of other nationalities and/or races. The Nazi platform was largely derived from the fascist world-view.
To snip a bit from Webster: "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual"
By this definition, Lohengren was the most fascist opera ever written, as it is about a woman who heroically marries a man she does not love (rejecting the one she does) in order to preserve her nation.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
"Multimedia": Use of more than one medium in a presentation or work.
Done.
The rest is filler.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Many people believe that Wagner's comments about Jews were motivated more by political expediance than by actual feelings of anti-semitism, but Wagner's fascist views were genuine, and a driving force behind most of his art. (Lohengren is about a woman who marries for her country... The Ring Cycle glorifies the pagan myths of northern Europe... You get the idea.)
It was not until the late 1990's that any orchestra in the entire nation of Israel publicly performed one of Wagner's works. IIRC correctly, it happened once, and has not been done again since.
Getting back to the Katz column, and the book he talks about, it seems to me that it is a silly distiction to call Wagner "multimedia", when very little separated him from operatic composers before him, such as Verdi (or even going back to Mozart's time). The only thing that might make Wagner different from his contemporaries (where a discussion of "multimedia" is concerned) is that he was extremely specific about his instructions to the theater director on details such as sets and blocking.
Verdi wanted you to have an "immersive" experience at the opera, too... but he trusted other people involved in the production to handle some of the visual details (focussing his attention on the music), while Wagner designed entire theaters to ensure that his works would be seen the way the composer intended it.
Wagner might not be the inventor of multimedia, but every film-maker who insists on a "director's cut" release is following his traditions. :)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I am the IT Manager for an first-tier higher education institution and I must say I have mixed feelings about the contributions of multimedia to the classroom. Oddly enough, it seems the backlash against using multimedia has come not from the professor, but from the students. The most rudamentary form of multimedia, Power Point, is often viewed as giving professors an excuse to not actually teach the material. We also have $25,000 multimedia classrooms that, even when they work properly, usually take more time getting everything set up than actually assisting anyone teach. I remember not too many years ago that the solution to education deficiences was "give them computers!" instead of "train better teachers!" At least in the educational environment, multimedia has had mixed results.
Some usage I remember:
1. (Describing a PC) Equipped with sound, video, and CD-ROM.
2. (Describing a game or web site) Graphically intensive, with sound and/or video.
3. (Describing a data protocol) Able to support multiple services - e.g. ATM, which is designed to support voice, data, and video
4. (Describing an industry segment) Broadly defined to include game developers, web designers, software developers, and editors of fancy magazines about same
5. (Describing a neighborhood) A place where innovative, cutting-edge companies producing 1, 2, and 4 (but not 3) locate.
But it's really obsolete usage by now. I haven't seen it in common usage in several years, except to describe slow, graphically intensive web sites that make me want to uninstall Flash.
(Note that it's 404 in the Jargon File. Probably because it's so amorphous as to be useless as jargon.)
sulli
RTFJ.
But don't kid yourself... Wagner wasn't a fascist, that didn't exist until 40 years after he died. You could call him a proto-fascist, maybe, but you could say the same about just about any nationalist. I fail to see how marrying for your country or pagan myths are inherently anti-sematic anyway.
Most of the association between Wagner and Nazism (in both the U.S. and Israel) has its roots more in American and Soviet propaganda than anywhere else. Ever watch old American WWII films? Wagner's music (particularly the Ride of the Valkyries) always seems to accompany the evil Nazi hordes.
As for the Wagner/Verdi thing, you should maybe do a little more research...
And anyone can use that particularly ambiguous definition of fascism and apply it to any selfless act. Is marrying for your country somehow more selfless than dying for it? So the men who died for Israel during its war of independence in 1948 were all fascists?
You'll have to excuse my not recognising your authority in this subject based solely on your comments. A degree in "music education" obviously proves that you are an authority on this subject.
Wagner's favorite theme was "redemption by love" which is hardly fascist. Maybe if you read fewer essays on these works and actually spent some time with them you'd understand. I fail to see where the Ring tries to "express the supremacy of northern Europe." but I'd be happy to give my opinions on something more specific. As for the "burn all the Jews" quote, I'm unfamiliar with the context that it is taken from, however, it should be noted that Wagner's dislike for the Jews was more "as a people" and he didn't seem to let it dominate his personal relationships with individuals. I'm not saying that there is such thing as a "lesser" racist, just that some people talk and some people act, and Wagner liked to talk.
As for the Ride being used in Apocalypse Now, so? It was only used there because it had the same powerful effect being played along with video of Stuka dive bombers 60 years ago. I was just saying that the Wagner/Nazi impressions that most people have come more from our own side.
And like I said before, Wagner disliked the Jews as a group but you wouldn't know it from the way he interacted with individuals.
Excellent comment re:Wagner. "multi-media" IS tranditional are in every culture. Are culture perhaps "re-discovered" this integration with opera. What people mean by "multi-media" is usually "interactive mulit-media" which is a new genre enabled by computer technology.
You're wrong. Wagner was Hitler's original inspiriation. It was after seeing the Ring cycle for the first time that he had the vision of Germany's future which led him into politics. Wagner was "the composer" for Hitler. The Nazi's based their entire mythos on his opera's. You are correct that he was not a Nazi and for all we know he would have been horrified by what Nazism became. But he was an outspoken political leader of the anti-semitic fascist camp in Germany.
Well, one of goals of Wagners "multi-media" was to encourage in society what later came to be called "National Socialism", better known as Nazism. I find it rather odd to call basic traditional "art" which throughout history has always been "multimedia", at least until the modern era divided dance, theatre and music into seperate specialties, as inherintly democratic. It serves the purposes of the societies that create it. Very rarely, in history at least, democratic ones.
Multi-media is redundant.
Multi-medium would be correct, or just Media.....
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- - - - - - - - - - -
I am a programmer. I am paid to produce syntax not grammar. Deal with it.
Ok, so some people has to flame and troll, but there has to be room for that too, that is also part of the learning process, here we learn to distinguish valid from invalid critique and so forth.
I also get tired of
All in all the
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
Words will become pasee as used in common language but this book and other like it present the history behind the work, the concepts that contributed to the modern definition and usage, as well as the technology that was the base requirement for the initial use of the word. It's always interesting to evaluate history with a fresh perspective.
--CTH
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
""open, democratic, nonhierarchical, fluid, varied, inclusive -- a slippery domain that evades the critic's grasp just on the verge of definition.""
Ouch, I haven't seen such gobbly-gook double-speak since the last time I actually read my credit card agreement.
I realize that multimedia is important, but do they really need confuse the issue by burying it under doublespeak and general nonsense. Any computer geek will tell you, multimedia using more than one medium to convey a message.
(these quotes you have are utterly amazing, guess this is where the credit card lawyers practice between updates to agreements)
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Look, I know all about multimedia. I've used
both paper tape and punch cards.
(Oops. I guess that's only bimedia.)
Please do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
The review mentions an article in the Atlantic in 1945 about hyperlinks, and Tim Berners-Lee, but no mention of the Ted Nelson's infamous 'Xanadu' project. The last I heard of it was an article in Wired in 1995 (found here) but I haven't heard anything since then.
Xanadu was supposed be be a two-way hypertext system, not only could you link other documents to your own, but you could link your document to others. Needless to say, there was much wailing and hand-wringing over copyright, IP and so forth, and the general consensus is that Nelson is a bit weird, but it's an interesting story, none the less.
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www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
I just found it funny how a word can build up a crescendo and then be almost forgotten.
C
--
There's no problem that cannot be solved with a suitable amount of high explosives
Claric.
--
There's no problem that cannot be solved with a suitable amount of high explosives
It is a hidden message (obviously majestic 13, section f-8:)
-CrackElf
"Blake is an idealist, Jenna. He cannot afford to think." - Kerr Avon, Star One, Blakes 7
If an idea can be proven wrong, are you asserting that we should just pretend its not, to save the feelings of the author?
Wrong ideas should be spoken out against. If one believes an idea truely, he knows its treason and a sanction to not speak out against those ideas which are wholly against the principles he holds. Often times the "own insight" you speak of defeats the others arguement, by the sake of what it is.
Slashdot would be nothing more than gushy brother-love articles with no real substance if everyone stopped trying to defend their ideas. Ideas that are proposed and never attacked, especially when they are wrong ideas, win by default.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism