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Apple to release PalmOS device?
Kris_J writes "The Register says that "Apple-branded PalmOS-based device have already started coming off Taiwanese production lines". The Newton is dead, long live the PalmOS." It will be interesting to see that if this pans out, how much Newton technology will end up in this PDA. Towards the end, the handwriting recognition on the MessagePad was quite good, even if the unit itself was quite bulky. Who knows, maybe iPalm? :)
They've been talking iPalm since they announced iMac. this is not news. They were talking about ditching newton and buying palm years before. they've been romancing palm for at least 5 years. If you want to see interesting palm variants, look at the TRG Pro, www.trgnet.com instead of the springboard port like visor, they adopted a CF port.... modem support, 340mb IBM microdrive support... a palm with 8mb base and 340mb storage is BOOOTIFUL!
As long as the two work together to improve the interface I see this as a good thing. Apple has always been known for its easy UI and that is what the Palm is all about. But I do not want the Mac desktop on my Palm. Although the menu hack does add a bit of that to the PalmOS now. Hmmmmm.
-- I can't say enough in 120 chars!
Handspring's Visor has a USB cradle for hotsyncing. Works pretty well.
To be honest, I don't see much need for a free (speech) replacement for PalmOS. The OS (at least until quite recently) is very closely coupled with the hardware, and Palm are very good to their developers. You can (after filling in the relevent forms) get the source to most of the OS, and the source to all the built-in apps is available under a very free license. One thing in particular would make a free replacement hard - there is no keyboard on the device, so you'd need writing recognition to do most useful things with the device.
One more thing: my GPLed software for the Palm is available at http://www.vmlinuz.org/palmos. There's a barely-written web site downloader (use SiteScooper instead) and LinkDirect (yes, it's a better, GPLed clone of DirectLink), a program for making a quick PPP connection between the Palm serial port and the PC serial port.
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language. I think it is also something to do with skipping a number to make it obvious that this is a new generation.
:-)
The number VI is apparently not used because it clashes with a naughty word in English.
As for others, the company known as Palm Computing has also released devices called the Pilot and the PalmPilot. The word Pilot is no longer used, apparently because the pen company of the same name (and prior usage) took offence and asked Palm (through the courts, IIRC) to please stop using it.
The other devices using the PalmOS are the IBM Workpad (a rebadged Palm, in effect), a variety of devices produced by Symbol, the TRGPro from TRG (duh!), the Visor from Handspring, and the upcoming devices from Sony and Apple.
I've got a TRGPro (which I won at PalmSource London) and I love it
Paranoia isn't an infectious condition, it's a way of life
The Palm doesn't talk USB. The Visor, which is otherwise entirely Palm compatible, does talk USB, and has the hotsync speed to prove it.
;-)
The Visor definitely rocks, though. If only the company would commit to producing upgrades on the OS when the new color API comes out (shades of gray are fine).
Now, when are we going to get Fibrechannel (>1Gb) speeds on our hotsyncs?
-Billy
Well, at least one thing could come out of this: we could finally get a PalmOS device with "eeep!", "bwoink!", "beuuuunngh!" and "eeeek!" sounds. Maybe when you hit the hard reset button you'll get a sample of a go-cart skidding and crashing into a wall of tires. Hmm...
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Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
The latest version of the Palm OS will do this already (to both Mac and PC), and I believe a friend of mine did successfully synch his Palm to his apple laptop using IR.
Last I heard, he went back to a serial cradle, as his TV was polluting his living room with IR and he was having reliability and speed problems.
Bill Kilgallon
Mathematically impossible requirements are technically not against policy.
This actually goes quite nicely with the announcement that Xircom will be producing an Airport Springboard for the Visor. CNN article - Xircom Press Release. I wonder if the first batch, or so, of Apple-brand PalmOS devices will have Airport support, possibly built in, possibly with a simple add-on...
I once wrote, on my Newton, "How many Newtons does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" I got "One many suiters does it tail to view in Trinidad".
Actually the Microdrive is a CompactFlash Type II device, about 50% thicker than a CompactFlash Type I device. The way CompactFlash works, if you can insert the Microdrive into a device (and it can cope with the additional power draw) then it will work, but most older CF devices, like cameras, only have a Type I slot and the device won't physically fit. Firmware upgrades are of no use.
There are some links to interesting Sony/PalmOS stories at this Yahoo club - Sony look like they'll be the ones taking the risk with an extreme Palm with colour and way too many other features. Should be interesting to see what they come up with, I just wish they'd hurry up and released something already...
I don't see why. Apple neither invented on-line handwriting recognition nor was their technology particularly distinguished. They may have a few patents in the area, but so do lots of other people. The basic ideas should be coming into the public domain by now, since they were worked out in the 70's and early 80's.
Of course, I don't see handwriting recognition as particularly important for PDAs anyway. It's a nice marketing gimmick, but when it comes down to it, something like a Sharp Wizard is much more efficient for data entry. To me, what makes the PalmPilot a good organizer is the well-designed software; unfortunately, none of the other hand-held organizers get close (e.g., on the Sharp Wizard, you cannot delete repeating appointments and the desktop software is a pain to install). I view the pen input as a liability, not an asset.
Back on topic, I read the article, and I didn't see anything to say what differentiates a iPalm vs. a 3Com Palm.
Besides the fruity colors (pun intended) which everyone expects, what will be in this iPalm to make it worth buying? Apple is great at design, but the Palm V series is great as it is. What would make me buy a iPalm over a regular Palm, if they were the same price?
considering the rumours of an apple-branded palm device have been stirring now for.. almost two years (since the cancellation of the Newton and intensified by Steve Jobs buyout bid on Palm not long after), i'll believe it when i see it.
:)
the Register tends to have reliable sources, and doesn't usually dip into the rumour pool lightly, but all the vague references and unsubstantiated sightings make me just a bit skeptical.
that and i just bought a used Newton MessagePad 2000 on ebay for a song
- Entertaining Bits from the Ancient Kernel Tree
Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.
Part of the problem with this is the small size of the Palm Pilot. It is designed to fit comfortably in your hand and your shirt pocket. With such a small size, "real" handwriting would be very difficult. There just isn't that much room to let you write out entire words. Letter-by-letter is pretty much the only practical way to go.
It should be possible to improve the letter-by-letter recognition part, though. Graffiti isn't hard to learn or use, but you are right, computers should adapt to the user whenever possible.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Sorry, but I can't let this one slide. Where do you people come up with this stuff?
Intel quite clearly owns the StrongARM processor technology, and in fact, over the past year, they've even started to recognize that what they bought is beter than what they can build.
The StrongARM website at Intel says, "Watch for next generation StrongARM® processors to make their debut during the first half of 2000." Read it for yourself at http://developer.intel.com/design/ strong/index.htm. (Actually the quote above is from a page linked to by that page, but clearly Intel is still in this game.)
Besides, I'm not aware of any NIC with an ARM chip on it, although there may be one. The ARM and DSP's (like TI's) are very different beasts.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Paul.
You are lost in a twisty maze of little standards, all different.
Jobs knows what he's doing when it comes to consumer devices. With Apple behind Palm OS, we can all sleep soundly knowing that WinCE is even less likely to take control of the CE market place. Palm OS has great support in the independent developer community (not to mention the OSS guys), but it has been in danger of not having the necessary backing to compete against a competitor w/ unlimited R&D, marketing power and patience. If you can get a Palm into the hands of every whimsical Mac user, it will push the demand for increased usability with improved look&feel. This couldn't come at a better time considering the new wireless Internet applications being made available.
My only worry is that carrying one could become an embarrasment. I really don't want to use a PDA that is named after a fruit. Steve, please, make it black or grey. We need at least the semblance of looking cool. Go watch the matrix.
A couple years ago (has it been that long?) when a Texas company offered Apple $11M for the discarded Newton, one of the remaining Newton people in Apple anonymously revealed that the disruption of the Newton group was so complete that Apple didn't even know where the various parts (be they hardware or software specs) were. So, even if Apple did was to sell, they couldn't.
You have to realize that most of us Newton users have heard of all this before - it's REALLY old news. Most of the people who developed the Newton eventually went to Palm and M$ for WinCE. The more work that goes into the Palm, the closer it becomes to the MessagePad 130.
As for me, I'm very disappointed that nothing has come around to replace my Newton.
The number IV is apparently not used because it clashes (I'm not sure, either the glyph IV or the word/number 4) with a naughty word in some Oriental language. I think it is also something to do with skipping a number to make it obvious that this is a new generation.
Actually none of that is true, but just rumors.
I asked a friend of mine who works for Palm Computing why they skipped numbers like that and the only reason they did it is because IV and VI, for example, look far too similar that the general public may easily confuse the two which would definitely not be a good thing for marketing. That's the only reason they ever skipped numbers like they do.
Methinks he just wants to be able to tinker. I fully understand, as I'd love to tinker with the guts of a nice portable thing like that. Look at all the TI graphing calculator hacks (new OSes, Tetris, other games, overlocking) :-)
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
(Humourous sarcasm)
.. it's gross. :-)
Once there was a Steve, and he had Jobs. His Jobs were to fix Apple. So to make sure he kept on task, and that others' wouldn't take his time with managerial fluf, he became the interum CEO (iCEO). And all was good.
Jobs recognised that Apple needed a computer to catch the masses attention, at least long enough for them to buy Apple products. He developed an interum Macintosh to serve as a "training" computer -- it is called the iMac. And Apple market share increased, and all was good.
Then Steve recognised that people liked portability. Laptops were used on airplanes, but his iMacs couldn't go on them. So he designed the iBook, an interum laptop to be used until people bought the less flashy (and less garish, although more expensive) normal Macintosh laptops. To associate it strongly with planes, he included the "Airport" wireless network. And real CEOs bought iBooks, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.
But Steve was slow on the uptake. A veritable forest of palms had sprung up, each with a Dragon inside. Steve had no Dragons, and someone else had stolen his transparent colour plastic idea, but he did have the licences for the Rossetta code. Steve began releasing the iPalm (use it until you buy something more expensive/functional from Apple). And the iPalm was purchased by computer illiterates, and real CEOs bought the iBook, and Apple market share increased, and all was good.
(/Humourous sarcasm)
The 'i' stands for (IMO) interum more than anything else. Any company that sticks 'i' or 'e' onto the front of a name to increase sales should be yelled at (or at least have their marketting departments destroyed). "iMac" "eMachines eOne"
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Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
After reading this article and thinking about the recent changes in Apple's hardware... I'm beginning to think that the Apple-Palm device might be some sort of a Palm VII with Airport capabilities- rather than the wireless technology that Palm is using right now. That would be pretty cool, although it would be more limited than the current wireless technology. You think that it might be possible for the device to support both?
I'm really looking forward to seeing what (if anything) develops out of this story.
The new version (in Japan only) has an 8 gig drive, as opposed to the 4 gig in the present picturebook.
Here is a link to the sony page. Not much bigger than a Newton 2000/2100, smaller than the Newton and keyboard.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Nah, the Visor already has the scoop on iMac colors, etc. Wonder if their implementation has an expansion port. You can see Handspring's products at www.handspring.com.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
If you ever used a Newton, you would know what he meant. The Palm UI is still very much a desktop UI converted to a small screen. The menu bar (even though it is hidden behind the menu button) and text manipulation through copy, cut, and paste commands are really just desktop computing throwbacks that have no place in a PDA environment.
On the Newton, text was highlit with the stylus similar to the Palm, but moving text was simply dragging around a highlit section rather than a cut followed by cursor movement, and then followed by paste. Deleting was a back and forth scribble very familiar to any who has used a pencil eraser.
Other problems stem from the grafitti input system. From the applications point of view, it acts very much like a keyboard, and it flavors how the applications act. All of the Palm's text areas have a very keyboard-ish notion of lines separated by newlines. It took a long time for me to get used to the fact that spaces betwen words had to actually be written.
Despite its flaws though. Eventually I switched from the Newton to the Pilot. Some of the things that make the Pilot a less than ideal PDA tend to make it a stronger mobile extention to my desktop computer. (or however the quote went.)
As for the Newton being gone. For actual hardware and OS, I'm sure its true. But from a UI perspective, it doesn't have to be. There are worse things a fledgling palm developer could spend money on than an old used Newton, or even a book about the Newton. The people who designed it gave some really good thought on how a PDA UI should differ from a desktop UI, and I don't think that enough PDA developers realize it.
That's the only thing keeping me from replacing my Newton 2100. It's the last one Apple made and the only one that was worth buying. If there was a Palm device that did it as well as my Newton I'd buy in an instant. I don't want to learn another language just to get info into my PDA, and don't give me a stupid chicklette keyboard. If I can't type with all 10 of my fingers, what's the point? Yes I do know people who write novels on their Palms, but I'm a believer in the computer adjusting to the way I want to use it, not the other way around.
"The avalanch has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Kosh
Not to be glib, but why would anyone bother doing all this work? Two of the major arguments for an open source OS are being able to fix bugs easily (and the resulting reliablility) and better device support. But PalmOS is already rock-solid reliable, and has virtually zero bugs. And there are no real devices to support, because it's a standard hardware platform. So there is very little to gain from doing this. Linux became popular because it was an alternative to an OS that people weren't happy with. Since most people ARE happy with the PalmOS, where will any replacement get an opening?
As far as Open Source ON PalmOS, 3Com releases the header files, and you can cross-compile your programs with gcc. So you can develop for it completely free.
My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see.... A screen the size of the Newton's...
Part of the problem here is you cannot carry five pounds in a three-pound bag. The big screen of the Newton was nice to work on, but it made the unit considerably larger, which meant it was hard to carry around.
Ever notice how the size of the Palm Pilot just about matches the size of a pocket notebook (the kind that flip open at the top)? There's a reason for that. It's a very convenient size for us humans, both to hold in our hands and to put in our pockets.
One thing that might be cool is a folding screen. Imagine a unit the thickness of the Palm V, but with twice the screen area. When you are done using it, fold it in half. You still couldn't hold it in the palm of your hand, but at least you could carry it around. Unfortunately, such folding screen technology is ten or twenty years off, from what I've heard.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.
Given that the Newton sported a StrongARM for handwriting recognition, which was (from what I hear) roughly on par with a P5, and the Palm uses a DragonBall, a derivative of the chip used in a Mac Classic, I doubt they'd be able to squeeze enough CPU speed out of a Palm to do the Newton's handwriting recognition. One of the main reasons the MessagePad 2000's handwriting recognition was so good in the end was the massively increased CPU power StrongArm gave it.
There are some proven technologies that Apple owns which could make their way to the iPalm. (Actually, when this product entered the rumormill months ago, it went by the name "iMate", if I remember correctly.)
1) The extremely good, on screen, handwriting recognition. The Newton allows you to write nearly anywhere on screen. By the time the 2100 came out, this recognition was really good. It even understood my hand-writing, which is no small task.
2) A better UI metaphor. The Newton defined its own interface guidelines, instead of trying to be like a desktop machine. Its core UI concepts are tons better than any other handheld I've seen. I'd be surprised if these are actually used on the iMate, but if they are, I would guess that Palm will (eventually) start using them on their own devices as well.
3) Better UI widgets. Even if they don't change the whole metaphor, the iMate could learn a lot from the Newton about tiny wigdets, tricks and interface tools which make using a Newton way easier than other palmtops.
4) StrongARM support. Again, this probably won't happen, but the Newton 2x00 series used the StrongARM processor, running at something like 160MHz. For a handheld of several years ago, that is quite a bit of processing power, especially since the batteries lasted for several weeks of average use (I think they were rated at 24hrs continuous use).
5) Speech. Apple ported MacInTalk to the Newton, so the Newton can read notes back to you. Apple has also been doing quite a bit with speech recognition lately, but that probably takes more juice than the iMate would have.
6) QuickTime. Eventually (probably not in the near future), palmtops will be powerful enough to playback video. Actually, the Newton could sort of do this, but not using a standard video format. (Anyone who saw the "Eat Millhouse" Simpsons clip on a Newton knows what I mean.) It would be in Apple's best interest to get QuickTime onto palmtops as soon as possible. Since the core of QuickTime is basically a compression engine, there may be some peices of it being used in the iMate.
7) TCP/IP. The Newton (eventually) got a fairly decent, small TCP/IP stack. I'm not sure how good Palm's is, but it is possible that Apple's is better.
8) Color. This is a bit of a stretch, but Apple has had years of experience in shifting black & white OS/hardware/APIs to color. As a Mac programmer during the transition from the Plus to the Mac II, I can tell you this was not very pleasant. Apple eventually got the hang of it, and I'm sure could give Palm some (much needed) advise about the best way to transition to full color.
One thing to keep in mind about all this is that Steve Jobs absolutely hated the Newton. This might have been because it was the pet project of the guy who fired him, but I remember seeing interview with people who said things like "Steve Jobs just doesn't get the Newton". So, looking to the Newton for inspiration may be the totally opposite of what Apple did.
Where are the Open Source PalmOS nerds? While uCLinux looks really neat, It's not palmOS by any measure. Linux was just conceived to do different stuff. There is also a company called OSK who claim to have a Linux and PalmOS compatable operating system, with the base open source, since they'd be in violation of the Linux license if it wasn't. Besides, it seems like a PalmOS emulator running on top of Linux...
Is there, to anyone's knowledge
Its the Ideology(tm)!
The Apple Newton was the most advanced piece of computer technology ever to hit the consumer market. It's application language, NewtonScript, was based on Self, a classless derivative of Smalltalk. That makes the Newton the closest thing going to Alan Kay's original vision of the Dynabook.
It was too big, too expen$ive, and Apple spent about $1.98 marketing it from first to last.
Half the time, when I use my 2100 on an airplane, it stops the stewardesses dead in their tracks. Every time I take my eMate down to the local coffeehouse to work on my novel, people come up and go ga-ga over it. When I show them that it isn't an iBook, costs about 1/3 as much as an iBook, is way lighter than an iBook and is instant-on, they want to know why they haven't seen it in stores. When I tell them it's been in the coffin for over two years, their jaws drop.
The Palm is a perfect device for its niche, but for me it's too small, too slow and too stupid. It's much harder to develop for, that's certain. And it outsold Newton eight ways from Sunday because the form factor was right and because Palm knows how to market.
The fact that Steve Jobs proved he was a big fat boob when the Newton was "Steved" is emotionally satisfying, but, sadly, was almost an afterthought. Newton might have survived if it was properly marketed - the numbers that leaked out of Newton, Inc. showed it was profitable way before it should have been - but that's history.
Newton cannot be reconstructed. Nothing on the market, not even a Psion, can do what a Newton can do. As a result, I've adopted a "bunker mentality". I have several 2100s, several 130s, and an eMate, and I plan to hang onto these and use them for the three to five years it'll take for someone to bring something better to market. For my needs, Palm isn't in the running.
Back in 1996 I bought a Newton MessagePad 120 "demo unit" and thought it was the most wonderful piece of technology I'd ever seen. I envied the MessagePad 2000's and 2100's when they came out but did not want to pay the $900 price tag.
My only major complaint with the Newton was its size. If the Apple-Palm device comes to pass, this is what I'd like to see....
1. A screen the size of the Newton's with the capability of rotating the display. On the 2000's and 2100's you could rotate the display so that the Pad could be held more comfprtably in either your left or right hand as well as "vertically".
2. Airport/wireless capability.
3. IR support.
4. Seemless desktop synchronization (the current HotSync application works great on the Mac though)
5. A "slate" form-factor- Newton-sized screen with the thickness of a Palm V. I would not mind the device being larger than the current Palms as long as it was not much heavier.
6. Built-in USB port for desktop connectivity rather than using a cradle like the current Palms.
7. More ram.
8. Natural handwriting recognition in addition to or instead of Grafitti.
A device like this would be "just dreamy".
Back in 1997 when Steve Jobs was let back into Apple, the Newton group was worried about how long they would last.
At the developer conference Jobs pointed to a 2000 and said:
"Apple makes computers. Computers have keyboards. Does this have a keyboard?"
Amelio, in an attempt to KEEP the Newton group from leaving, spun off the Newton group to Newton Inc to 'sink or swim'. Gil saw the handwriting on the wall: Jobs was removed from Apple by John Scully when Jobs tried to have Scully terminated. As Scully had claimed the Newton as 'his baby', Jobs was working to knife Scully's child. Gil also had watch Newton staff LEAVE for Palm computing when Jobs was brought on board.
At this point, Newton Inc had prototypes of a palm-sized Newton for $500 price point. No PCMCIA card slot etc.
After Gil was gone, the Newton division was spun 'back in'. At this point 32 of the Newton group left IN MASS to Palm. (Other things: Parts for a new run of Newtons were not being ordered, etc) So, the Newton engineers were no longer around. At this point, the Newton was without core developers.
Given the LACK of respect Jobs showed handheld computers/PDA's, was buying Palm a GOOD idea? (IE-would the engineers have STAYED in an Steve Jobs controlled version of Palm...I don't believe so)
Move to present day:
Palm has the TALENT that made rosetta (the handwriting engine)
Apple has the COPYRIGHTS to rosetta
Both sides have lawyers.
If Palm were to come up with REAL handwriting, Apple could sue. Even IF the new version was 'clean' of Apple code, the legal bills would go on for some time.
How can Apple get a cheaper Palm licence? Allow Palm to use rosetta technology in a cross licence agreement.
How long has an Apple branded Palm been rumored? Soon, the 2 year mark will be reached. The time to announce this JUST passed....the Apple love in at MacWorld.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!