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VA and HP Join Forces for Linux and Samba
aaf writes "VA and HP are working together to improve printing under Linux and Samba. Everything is and will be Open Source and the initial focus will be on improving existing Open Source printing software and enabling advanced functionality for Laserjets. It's all being developed and managed through SourceForge." While this is all LaserJet specific, I can't help but think that open sourcing everything will enable the community to build stronger cross-platform printing solutions for Linux.
I dont see why Linux has bad printing mechanisms...i think lpr is perfectly good as a remote print spooler and the drivers + printtool utility with redhat work great with all my HP printers.
Heck, ive even begun to replace HP JetDirect print servers with redhat or slackware boxen..do we really need another print system ? Besides, even the CUPS guys are trying to build one...
Actually, Laserjets are far and away the printing platform used in business. And it's nice to see VA Linux supporting the community by using SourceForge, and HP promoting (even indirectly) Linux, where before some would have seen it as competition. :)
<ZEALOT>
I yearn for the day when companies write drivers for Linux(/Unix) and opensource them so that all Unixes can share in the glory, and we all laugh at Windows for a decade because it's fragmented, hard to use for longer than 30 minutes, and it locks you into proprietary solutions.
</ZEALOT>
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
This is one of the few remaining spots in Linux that just plain stinks. I used to say that printing and ppp made Linux difficult/impossible for the masses to use. PPP is finally pretty easy to use, with tools like RP3, the debian PPP support, kPPP, etc. Looks like printing will finally work as well.
I spent many, many hours trying to get my Linux workstation talking to the HP printers at work; after much failure I finally had success. I've never gotten printing to work reasonably well at all at home; trying to connect to my roommate's printer just didn't happen. We ended up sneaker-netting it, with printing to postscript and all. I had similar results with a Deskjet 600 physically connected to the box (ie, no network in the middle). Stuff would come out of the printer, but nothing was ever quite right. It was a classic case of configuration being prohibitively difficult, FOR NO GOOD REASON.
Let's hope that what comes of this announcement can change things.
Actually, HP's base network printer drivers are mostly shell scripts - which are perfectly readable. Copyrighted, but readable and editable.
Last time I checked, you could download them for free off of the HP site.
Local print drivers are another story, but any printer with really really cool features should be networked anyway.
- bridgette
HP's WebJetAdmin is network printer config/management software that supports RedHat.
- bridgette
IIRC, one of the reason RMS started the GNU thing was because of a printer with closed specs and no API to hack upton to add useful features.
;-).
Now a decade later we have a major printer vendor with APIs and drivers out into the open on sourceforge
That is the question I have asked myself many, many times, whenever I play the role of "Linux advocate" and introducing Linux to the people around me.
I can show them the amazing things Linux can do; The incredible value Linux represents; The wide array (and getting ever more wider) of softwares that run under Linux; The many platforms Linux runs under; but when it comes to printing, Linux takes a back seat, a back, back, back seat.
If the joint effort between HP and VA is successful, then, I do not have to ask myself the "To print or not to print" question again, and I can go show them the amazing things Linux can do and I can put them on paper/slide/whatever.
It's just another right step towards world domination.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
for better color output and for double sided printing on the Deskjet 970 Clx series. Right now, only the driver for that other operating system supports duplex printing :-(
This sounds pretty much like the 'server end' of printing... which is all very well for business use, but I'd like to see an attempt to address the 'desktop end'.
What I want to see is 1440 dpi support for Epson Stylus printers, including the six-colour models. Once we have drivers for the photorealistic printers, we remove another significant 'but Linux cant do X' argument from the Windows crowd. After all, even if the GIMP is made to support CMYK, we get a quality Illustrator/Freehand clone, and a decent DTP package (hmm, will that wish list be resolved Real Soon Now?), we still can't get the best possible printing out of our shiny new colour printers...
free experimental electronic music netlabel at www.viablehybrid.com
I wish that when people write up stories as these, they'd actually explain what would be done about today's printing system. The print system used in linux does NOT suck, it's the same system that's been used for years without a problem. The fact that this article concentrates on SMB print sharing is a little off-topic I find, specially since there already exist the Common Unix Printing System. It already supports SMB, and although limited, the CUPS doesn't deserve to be one-uped by commercial entities that wish to simply create greater mind-share.
I'd wish HP and VA would stick their noses out of the All-in-one solution (print drivers/SMB) and concentrate on drivers themselves, like as one post already described, for certain things like duplex printing.
just my two 4:45am cents. :)
... open the specifications, if not the code, to the Deskjet printers.
Most home users, when they buy a HP, will buy a color inkjet, notibly the deskjets. These so call "Winprinters" require a Windows driver to convert the data to "Performance Printing Archetecture" (ie, kills your box's performance in order to print) and the PPA specs are NOT open. Fortunately for me and other unfortunate deskjet users, some brave soul out there had wrote a program called PBM2PPA that coverts postscript bitstream to PPA for printing. Of course, the conversion does a toll on my box and is only good for black and white, but at least printing is now a possibility...
-=- SiKnight
An area of major concern is the unwillingness of some manufacturers to release appropriate programming documentation. If decent documentation were freely available (to my knowledge this is not the case for my Epson Stylus Color 600) , it would be much easier to use all the features the printers offer.
I am involved in convincing users not to print every email, or print every web page. It has been difficult, but I have cut down on the amount of "post it" appointments and announcements.
I have no desire to make printing for the user easier. If I could get away with it, I would put a delay on all print jobs of about 3 hours.
Some of my older users want to file every print job in their own personal file cabinet. The infrastructure I have in place archives every piece of email and data in the servers. Everything is backed up with off site backups and a small backup cluster.
Thank you for the involvment in open source HP and VIA, but I shall not drink of this wine.
These people are soooooooo amusing! They'll trademark anything!. In fact, I guess I can start dropping TM at random places...
Ciao(TM)
This is great news, but...
Aren't we going to have too many different printing solutions out there? This announcement follows Corel's announcement about their own linux printing system. They may both be great systems, but probably incompatible and will leave application developers confused.
Having multiple solutions for the same niche is normal for open source (KDE/Gnome and countless other examples) and for most cases I think it is actually a good thing. But somehow for printing I don't think this would be a good idea. I prefer to have just one way to print. Currently the de-facto standard is simply PostScript. It's not perfect but it works.
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Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
Back in 1994 a HP LaserJet device driver for Linux was developed and released, which ran the specific BiTronics protocol (aka. IEEE something) LaserJets use: http://meta lab.unc.edu/pub/Linux/kernel/patches/misc/bt-ALPHA -0.0.1.lsm
According to the author, there was not much interest in the driver, including Linus not showing interest in including it in the kernel. So development stopped after the initial release. In other words, Linux could have had special HP support for years now, if there would have been a demand for it.
Let's hope that this new effort by VA and HP will result in some strong HP support and improvements in the printing system.
I have a HP Deskjest 712C which works great. But apparently when I bought it I overlooked the phrase "Windows only" on the box. I've never been able to get it to work with linux and I am forced to keep windows on another partition so I can print.
My only problem with linux really, is this issue.
So what sort of binary are these "Binary" filters going to be written in then? It wouldn't be i386 binary would it by any chance??? How is that going to run on my Alpha then?
It is very easy to campaign against the Microsoft monopoly whilst supporting the i386 one!!
There's no problems or issues with remotely using the advanced HP printer functionality embedded within their windows drivers. Their printer drivers can occasionally be...ahhh, ornery to install(to say the least), but they *do* distribute packages pretty much ready to be remotely installed via Samba.
:-)
I'm not just speaking from my own personal usage--my "mere" Pentium 120 w/ 64MB of EDO SIMMs managed to serve the print needs of between 280 and 500 students distributed among about a dozen dorms across campus using Samba and the Caldera Openlinux Novell code.
The server never even broke a sweat. I pretty much only had one chronic outage, and that was because of a rather nasty bug in Windows' TCP/IP stack. But heh, at least I got to discover it.
The press release is pretty short on facts, but I'd *guess* the following functionality is being worked on:
A) Bidirectional Status Updates. As far as I know, Samba can't reflect back complex or custom status messages from the printer to the user.
B) Document Titles. Samba doesn't know how to extract from Windows the title name of a print job--a common solution is to force Postscript prints and then extract the job title from the PS header, but that's not particularly the "correct" solution, particularly for a company like HP which has quite an investment in this little language called PCL...
C) Database hooks. My print system had a rather extensive logging system, but it just output to plaintext. Samba's internal logs are all debug oriented. I wouldn't be surprised to see an "enterprise-class project" involving Samba to dump its logs straight into a SQL database.
D) Enterprise-scale configuration managers. SWAT's good for what it is, but HP's golden cow is its laser printers and what they can do for businesses. If they're going into this, corps are saying that they want to follow Cisco's(ObPlug) lead and base their printing architectures around Linux and Samba. If HP wants to remain able to sell a competitive print management solution in that kind of market, contributing to Samba is an obvious move.
E) Linux drivers. There are lots of features which don't exist on the Linux side which are standard on Windows. HP can simplify the installation and improve the feature-completeness of their printers for Linux clients, as well as allow IT staffs to implement high end filtering systems(i.e. force all prints to possess a confidentiality watermark) for their printers.
Congrats to VA Linux, btw! We owe someone there some serious thanks. HP on board should be interesting.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
We've got two of those HP devils on a Linux box running Samba.
The LJ4000 has passable controllability from a user desktop, it'll print ASCII text. Fortunately, WordPerfect still does the driver-for-the-software-package routine pioneered with DOS.
As for the inkjet 697C? Forget it, no matter what the compatibility lists say. That is strictly a direct-connect situation, and only to a WIN98/NT box. Just try to synchronize the test print page over a network. No better way to irritate end users. And run JetDirect on NT to talk to it when it's attached to the Linux box? Say what?
HP promises about Linux/Unix drivers are just butterfly kisses and fairy farts.
It would be nice if they would make some kind of standard printer driver. Right now there are multible projects like this one!
)
One example is SUSE and Minolta, which have teamed up to create drivers for Minolta's printers etc. (http://www.suse.com/PressReleases/minoltapr.html
I hope they will cooporate (HP, Minolta, Canon, etc.), instead of developing each their standard.
Nobody will benefit from that.
Hopefully, because it is Open Source and available at SourceForge, the companies will see the advantage in joining this project and not create their own.
I have been actively monitoring the open source revolution since its very formation, over 4 years ago, and I am constantly stunned at the behind-the-paradigm, chasing-the-tail-lights behaviour of these traditional Unix vendors jumping on the Linux bandwagon.
Are these big corporations (Sun, IBM, Hewlett Packard, Microsoft, etc) aware that Linux is not the product of of a carefully thought-out technology marketing strategy ? Do they know for instance that Linux has no mission statement, and until two years ago was developed by one guy (Linux Torvaldees) from his bedroom in Sweden on a low-powered PC?
I suspect that if their marketing departments were aware of the flawed marketing message coming from the Linux developers, they would be much less keen to jump aboard this particular bandwagon!
And now for my personal gripe. As the most techno-savvy person at our marketing agency, I am often called upon by the other creative associates to assist with PC problems when a more out-of-the-box approach is required. For this reason I am a bit worried that if our agency goes down the Linux route for its print servers, all my NT expertise gained over the years (including very advanced tasks that require administrator priveleges such as rebooting the Exchange server, and applying a Service Pack to the cdrom drive) will count for nothing. We will have to pay an expensive MCSE to come and fix our problems
Can anyone see the problem with this ? Why should we pay $$$s to some third party ? Until Linux was installed we could fix the problem ourselves. I haven't met a computer problem yet that could not be fixed by either hitting ctrl-alt-del, or applying the very latest service packs from Microsoft. (and I have been in this game for a long time). This is why Linux quite simply cannot compete.
To conclude, the large Unix vendors simply must come up with a retrospective marketing story for Linux. The developer types seem to think that a platform's success depends purely on technology. When will they grow up and realise that to compete in the real world, a coherent marketing strategy is not a luxury - it is a necessity !!! Without it, Linux and its derivatives (FreeBSD, Mandrake and OpenBSD) are doomed to failure.
As usual I offer my "open source" marketing advice without charge, although sometimes I wonder why I bother when I see announcements like this from the likes of HP. I'm beginning to think that they "just don't get it".
I assume VA & HP are adding JetDirect "port" support into Linux, something that already exists (thank dog) in AIX.
Under AIX, dealing with the Byzantine print system is truly easier when using JetDirect "ports".
So, we can look forward to multiple logical queues to a single physical HP printer. Each queue could carry with it a series of paper, orientation and other defaults. Each queue could have bi-directional messages, like toner low, and it would propagate to client PCs (say Windows).
All neat and tidy, but simple LPR/LPD, using PostScript has worked rather well for all our HP printers. Trouble always stems from older Windows software that has some built-in assumption of the end-device, forcing us to try a PCL driver to compensate.
I look forward to dissecting the new printing mechanism. One less reason to have an NT print server.
Has anyone else here been dealing with HP support of Linux on NetServers? I have been trying to find out from them how to use the Auto Server Restart feature on the NetServer Remote Assist cards. They have gotten around to providing a half hearted responce about it following IMPI but the problem is that to take advantage of an IMPI device you first need to know and have support for the I2C bus controller that the IMPI compliant device sits off of. Does anyone know how to discover the I2C bus controller without going through another lengthy wait period as HP tries to figure out what is being requested? Does HP have any plans to provide drivers for this feature themselves? Btw, we are expierencing identical problems with Dell Linux "support" of the DRAC card. :( I think the reliablity of Linux and Samba is great but I still like hardware high-availablity solutions when attempting to ensure 24x7 continual service.
But a printer connected over the SMB network, or heaven forfend, attached to a Linux spooler? Well, HP products just plain suck.
Support for printer XYZ through application RST just isn't the biggest problem for Linux applications. The problem is the fact that there is NO unified printing subsystem available to an application developer under Linux or any other UNIX/X11 system for that matter. At least not one that's actually in widespread use.
CUPS absolutely does not count because it still relies on an having an application spit out postscript data. Generating postscript files and rendering an image on a GUI are two totally different problems requiring two totally seperate routines in an application to address them, requiring TWICE the work on an application developer. Ugh, what a total pain in the ass.
This does not make for a good, flexible application development environment. And as a result, Linux applications are going to suffer. They will either provide no printing support at all or each application will take a different approach to the printing problem, leaving the end user with a collection of applications that all print differently. The latter is the situation I think we find ourselves in right now under Linux. Try printing with GIMP, XV, Netscape, WordPerfect, StarOffice, etc., etc... Each one does things differently with varying degrees of success.
QT has an approach that gets a *little* closer, but still has a long way to go as it ultimately renders things in postscript anyway. This not only requires a GOOD postscript RIP, but also a good printer driver for that RIP. Introducing a generic RIP application into the middle of things just totally destroys any hope of getting optimized printer output for your new fangled, high powered, 6-color inkjet.
Applications need to be able to pass rendering operations directly to the printer driver (which needs to be written *by* the manufacturer to ensure the best possible output quality). Currently this type of architecture is totally non-existant under Linux/X11 and we all seem to keep dancing around the issue with the introduction of things like CUPS and the QT printing subsystem. I gaurantee you, Linux will NOT compete with Windows on the desktop level until a *real* solution to the printing problem is crafted.
This thing HP and VA are doing is not a *real* solution to the *real* problem.
I get decent imaging from the 970Cse by using the hpdj driver in ghostscript (it is compiled into the current aladdin-ghostscript as distributed in Debian, probably also in other distributions as well). Reading the documentation for this driver is very helpful.
Here is the entry in my /etc/filter.magic (for magicfilter smart filtering):
# PostScript /usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dNOPAUSE -sDEVICE=hpdj -r600x600 -sColorMode=CMYK -sModel=unspec -sPrintQuality=1 -sOutputFile=- /etc/gs-enlighten-for-dj970cse - -c quit /usr/bin/gs -q -dSAFER -dNOPAUSE -sDEVICE=hpdj -r600x600 -sColorMode=CMYK -sModel=unspec -sPrintQuality=1 -sOutputFile=- /etc/gs-enlighten-for-dj970cse - -c quit
0 %! filter
0 \004%! filter
I put the following in /etc/gs-enlighted-for-dj9700cse to make color pictures a little less dark:
{0.45 exp} settransfer
I don't know how to set-up duplex printing, but I find that manually doing duplex is fine using dvips when printing my papers or psselect when printing generic postscript files.
dvips -D600 -A -r myfile.dvi
prints the odd pages in reverse order. Then put output back in the input tray, and
dvips -D600 -B myfile.dvi
to print even pages on the back. For generic postscript,
psselect -o -r file.ps | lpr
re-insert paper
psselect -e file.ps | lpr
to print to the back of the pages.
What I want to know is...
Why can't I buy a printer that understands PostScript for under $750? (Actually, that's Lexmark's cheap Optra 45 -- most are thousands of dollars!)
Sure, Abode's licensing fees may be astronomical, but I've heard some "PostScript-compatible" printers actually use GhostScript. And I'm sure the necessary hardware doesn't cost THAT much these days. I suppose the sticking point could be the RAM -- but 16 MB is like $40 if you buy the old EDO DRAM SIMMS! I'm sure printers could get buy with slower (and therefore cheaper) RAM than that.
If we could actually buy a cheap PostScript printer, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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>>You responded seriously to a Score:3 Funny.
And you're funny too.
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The one thing that's bothered me is HP's refusal to acknowledge this fact and state on their web site "our printers work with (or w/o, as appropriate to the printer) Ghostscript on Unix." It's all microsoft this, microsoft that. I'm mildly confused that they go to the trouble to make sure they're compliant and compatible, then don't bother to advertise the fact. So in that sense, maybe this is a step in the right direction. But we really don't need more printing systems, and we really don't need major changes to the existing ones. It pretty much just works great already! Now, inkjet support, that's another matter...
Every time it crashes or requires a service pack, say out loud something along the lines, "This would not have happened with Linux".
Very soon the message will come across that a machine should not require rebooting every 15 minutes. You don't need to demonstrate Linux to advocate it. The mere fact that it does not come from the Redmond Retards led by "technological genius" Billy-Boy Gate$$$ and his balding cohort $$$tevey Boy Ballmer is advocacy enough.
I dismissed the "Windows only" small text on the side of the box, and bought the HP 710 Color deskjet.
It uses PPA also, and Ghostscript can't handle it. There's a working black and white driver at this address (for HP 7x0, 820 and 1000 series) and I've just found that the same people are currently working on a color driver (see sourceforge. Since HP won't release specs, they are forced to hack on the windows drivers to find the printer protocol.
It's been a while since I'm using the b/w driver, and I'm too cheap to spend color ink testing alpha drivers... But I'll give this new drivers a spin.
Anyway, I think that every manufacturer that wants to approach the open source world should first release specs for all their products (HP: does that ring a bell?)
go Mnemonic!!!
I have two huge HP-UX boxen and twenty-some jetdirect-equipped HP printers. The measure of control I have over these printers, and the ability to configure them as I please, is LAUGHABLE. For example, printer names have to be all upper-case and can't contain punctuation. I have all the latest HP printing software, incidentally, and it's best described as difficult, counter-intuitive and tedious to use. I used to think /etc/printcap was evil, now I long for its (relatively) fast & easy configuration. .INF files). I always wondered why I couldn't properly use an HP5 unless I had both HP4 and HP5 drivers installed; now I know.
Using samba, LPD, and the Windows drivers gives me much better control than using HP's flagship products. And, the PC users can comprehend the printer names! I use samba's automagic printer driver download, but I have to do a lot of hand-editing because the files that HP is shipping to define the driver requirements of the entire HP5 lineup are corrupt (that's the
And of course, there was at least one verion of JetAdmin for Win95/98 that raped your entire printing subsystem and could not be uninstalled... I had to reformat several hard drives in the IS department because people loaded that tarbaby.
So, in short, having HP work on linux printing is like having Dr. Mengele check out your skin condition. I predict that HP will produce lots of barely useable crap that will get incorporated into every major distribution due to consumer demand.
Here at my shop, I will never buy another HP printer. I haven't seen an HP printer since the ThinkJet that wasn't just a lamer version of a QMS printer anyway.
That can also be used against you :)
When my machine doesn't crash, allows me to use Perl to do XML/XSL transforms with something other than beta software, and surf the web with the best browser available, I can also say
"This would not have happened with Linux"
This is not a troll, but I do wish some folks would realize that not all Win32 users are clueless idiots, begging Bill for a bone. If I want a good webserver, I'll use Apache on FreeBSD. If I want a good desktop, Win2k and Office2K. I have no desire to write my own Perl scripts to translate StarOffice docs to XML.
Do anal-retentive people hyphenate 'anal retentive'?
http://printing.sourceforge.net/
Another problem is that you can't even align the printer cartridges for the Deskjet 850C (and other 2 cartridge) printers without physically connecting the printer to a windows box. I have tried to go through the forum on HP's website to find a contact to get the information. Someone from HP eventually told me to contact the local office in Australia. That's just a waste of time. So I've borrowed a dot matrix printer to try to get a dump of the sequences to send to the printer - when I get some spare time.... Probably easier to get another brand of printer...
Oh wait, let me say it again. Thank you! Samba printing is the only bad thing about Samba. I've tried to use samba to print huge cad files and I've backed out every time.
I am going to pretend, for a moment, that you are a serious poster, and that your series of remarks were meant as sincere criticisms of Linux.
:).
That is a bit of a stretch, seeing as how your remarks about a "Linux registry setting," your juxtaposition of Mandrake and two of the BSDs, and your use of the words "rock solid," "scalable," and "NT Server" in the same sentence mark you as either a troll someone who has never used Linux.
Or, I suppose, a marketing guy. In which case your confusion on these matters makes sense
It seems to me that your own post proves that the Linux Marketing Juggernaut (LMG from now on) is kicking ass and taking names. After all, marketing is all about convincing people that a certain product is right for them.
If the LMG has convinced the pointy-haired bosses at your firm that they need to chuck their tried and true NT Servers for Linux, then you can bet your sweet life that there is some serious marketing going on. After all, Microsoft spends billions convincing these same pointy-haired types that Windows NT is the coolest thing since sliced bread, and yet the LMG (with an advertising budget several orders of magnitude less than MS) is winning the customers.
As for the Linux Windowing system, who cares if people don't know what it's called? It's not for sale separately anyhow. Linux is the name that your customers want to hear. The technical stuff is best left to the gearheads.
And before you blame Linux for poor name recognition perhaps you should take a look at the predicament that "Windows NT" is in. After spending ungodly amounts of money on Windows NT branding, Microsoft is chucking the NT monniker to the winds. What does your marketing savvy have to say about that? It sounds to me like Microsoft wants to remake NT's image, I wonder why?
I was gona find docs to write a ghostscript driver for my printer, but could not find the docs anywhere. Can someone point me out?
Maybe I'm being ignorant here, but why couldn't some sort of module be written for the WINE project that allows Windows drivers to be used directly?
Again, I may be in the dark here, but would the ideal situation be to hack out the printing API for windows and then just go and use the drivers that come with your printer out of the box?
Sure, that means that the drivers would remain closed source, but since they're only useful with the hardware that one buys and come with that hardware anyway, it seems that doing this once would save people and manufacturers the time and money it takes to port their drivers to other OS's.
--Cycon
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
Actually, I just bought a Postscript printer for $350 once shipping & handling was factored in. It's the Lexmark Optra E310, and it handles Postscript Level 2 natively. List price on Lexmark's website is $400, although a Price Watch search ought to turn up some cheaper prices. Do a DejaNews search for "Lexmark Optra E310" and you can read about other people's experiences with this printer. I bought mine from Electrified, where they list refurbished Optra E310's for $300 ($299, technically). Note that that does not include a parallel cable (though it does include a toner cartridge, otherwise I'd be a little steamed), which wound up costing me an extra $15. Add hefty shipping & handling fees (due, I suppose, to the weight of the package, although I'm sure I got overcharged there too), it still came out to about $350, which is cheaper than anywhere else I found.
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The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
The real meaning of the GNU GPL:
"The Source will be with you... Always."
I am still using a driver from a hacker that atleast gave me Black and white for my HP722C. Would HP give up the specs to help him out?NO. This makes me a little hostile to HP. Open up PPA or write drivers for Linux before you get a Linux friendly stamp from me! This includes 700, 800 and 1000 Deskjets.
I use that same driver for black and white. Yes he is a very brave soul. HP you stink for what ya done.