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France Sues U.S. and UK Over Echelon
gaijin|dog writes, "According to this article, the U.S. and UK are to be sued over Echelon. From the article "The British and U.S. governments are to be sued in France after claims that they have spied on French companies, diplomats and Cabinet ministers. French MPs claim to have evidence that the European Airbus consortium lost a Fr35 billion (£3.5 billion) contract in 1995 after its offer was overheard and passed to Boeing." " Now, I'd rate the probablity of actually getting said money at just about the same as, say, Rob and Heather Graham dating,
You would want tiny antennas (at least in terms of the active elements) and very close range to the target of interception.
Or long range, still tiny active element and huge, perfectly paraboloid reflector. Telescopes have reflectors up to few meters in diameter, and they have no problems receiving "signals" at the wavelength of hundreds nanometers.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
This is what used to be done in an exceedingly classy fashion as the old "international incident." Foreign power spies. You spy back. You catch $FOREIGN_POWER's spy. You make a big deal about it. Scandal ensues, lots of fun for everyone, etc. A lawsuit of any kind is just a prissier version of the same old thing.
Of course, good may come of this - greater exposure of Echelon is ultimately a good thing for everyone as it keeps the US and its allies a little more honest. Of course, the fact that we're here discussing Echelon means it's been superceded, but it's the idea that counts, eh?
-- TM, listening in on my Congressman's Phone Sex session on his cell.
This is basically to draw publicity to what the US and UK are doing, and I'm all for it in that respect.
That's quite likely. There is also the possability of going through the EU to get at the U.K. At any rate, everyone spies on everyone else. The 'arrangement' seems to be that as long as the intelligence is not used commercially, everyone (officially/diplomatically) looks the other way. France got caught cheating in the '80s and just wants to make it clear that they're not the only ones cheating (I don't blame them there).
All told, I'm glad this happened as well. There seems to be a bit of a truth shortage these days.
I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need legal
advice, see an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.
French courts simply lack jurisdiction over the U.S. The U.S. has
absolutely no obligation to appear (and I'd call my congress-critters
and demand another impeachment if there were a U.S. appearance), and
would have no ability to enforce any ruling it entered.
The only way this *possibly* gets heard in a courtroom (at least
with the U.S. as a party) would be in the U.S. Supreme Court. Even
then, were a judgment entered, it could not be paid without an
act of Congress authorizing payment of funds from the Treasury.
Also, it's been a *long* time since the Court heard a case of
original jurisdiction (probably since diplomatic immunity was
established). I'm not sure the current rules of court even
provide for the situation (I'd have to look them up, and I'm just
not that interested).
hawk, esq.
A couple of years ago at a conference, I was relating my summary
of anglo-french history to a group that included some Europeans.
Roughly, in the second half of the eleventh centrury, a french
duke got irritated and took the english crown for himself. He
still held about a third of France. Over time, this got whittled
down, and the british sent an army across to reclaim/expand their
french holdings. Having done so again, they got neglectful, and the
french holdings again dissipated. Periodically, the brits would send
an army that would trounce a french army three to four times its own
size.
After about 500 years of this, the french finally noticed
that they had castles to hide in. When the brits came, they simply
didn't go out and play, and eventually went home due to long supply
lines. The brits never figured out that since they held the
entire area except for the castles, that they could build their
own castles.
Then came the 20th century, and they discovered that they hated the
germans more than one another.
At this point I was interrupted with a sharp, "No we didn't."
:)
seems it was merely expedient to fight together for a few years
Nick
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
They may be France's closest allies, but they're also pretty damn powerful enemies. If France tried to go to war with the US and the UK, they'd find the whole might of NATO turned against them. That would be outright suicide.
No, France can't take that route, and they know it. Frankly, the Airbus thing is probably just an excuse; they know they won't get their money back. What they're trying to do is set a precedent. Open the way for other nations to sue. And hopefully destroy Echelon in the process; knowing the US they'll destroy Echelon rather than hold onto it and destroy their reputation (sad to say, the only thing the U.S. government values more than keeping its power is keeping what little image it has left). This is a ploy to make the US and UK lose face, and I'm all for it if it'll hurt Echelon even a little bit.
We're just Slashdotters. When all's said and done, there's really nothing we can do about Echelon; we simply don't have the kind of power it takes. France has tons more than we do, but even it can't do much by itself. But if it takes a stand, other nations will too, and the combined power of several large nations can do something about Echelon.
I could go on for several more paragraphs extolling the guts France is showing by taking this move, but knowing my luck I'd only start a flamewar. So I'll just shut up now.
> WWI was the UK's, France's and Canada's war. No it wasn't. WWI marked the USA's entry onto the world stage. American intervention in the war was decisive even before declaration: US gold and credits kept both British and French economies afloat. Without that aid, a compromise peace would have been inevitable, simply because France and Britain could not long continue the war on the own resources. By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.
At last, someone points this out. It is, I think, the real motivation behind this action. A whole lot of Europeans, not just the French government, are sick and tired of Britain acting as America's whore. Of course, the sensible course of action here would be de Gaulle's, but it's too late for that.
I think this AC should be moderated up to five, to show the shocking state of American education: the sheer ignorance of the average American youngster when he leaves high school is a far more important issue than all this Hellmouth crap.
France has been engaging in industrial espionage to give French firms an advantage:
http://www.aci.net/Kalliste/industryespion.pdf
I really hope the US and UK countersue, because then maybe more info on both issues will be revealed.
It's very simple -- France has a decades-long record on spying on the U.S. and U.K., too. You should see the list of warnings about French espionage that U.S. multinationals give to their executives. France has to moderate its reaction to avoid an immoderate response if and when they get caught red-handed.
Steven E. Ehrbar
Airbus is always complaining about spies this and spies that. I think they're just jumping on the eschelon bandwagon.
Frankly, i've been on an Airbus 310, and I'd rather walk. So, my theory is that they lost the deal when someone thought they could get a better jet, the exact number Airbus offered probably didn't play into it at all.
This is just like television, only you can see much further.
There is a simple solution to Echelon. Stop sending voice and data over unprotected radio, microwave and satellite links. Even if Echelon was shut down, which I think would be a terrible idea, there are plenty of other countries with SIGINT capabilities.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The Sugar Grove Naval Communications Facility near Sugar Grove, West Virginia is an NSA satellite intercept facility. See this web page for the FAS list of the NSA's facilities.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
In the case of World War I, the Zimmerman telegram laid the foundation for the United State's entry into the war. The sinking of the Lusitania was more of a final straw. British propaganda was a factor, something that backfired on them in later years when Americans learned how they had been lied to.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
The French have reached new levels of hypocrisy. US Security Bulletins have been warning Americans about widespread and massive espionage by the DGSE for many, many years. This is like the Menendez brothers asking for a lenient sentence because they are orphans.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Go read your histoy books again.
Russia was in the war from day 1. For your info Germans have used almost equal quantities of people and armament on both fronst. The mere difference is that Russians also fought the Austrians and Turkey.
I could continue but I will restrain. No point to answer to an ignorant prat.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
glwillia@hormel.hotmail.com writes:
Remove the producer of Spam from my email address to email me
Sorry, but I don't think that glwillia@com is a valid email address. :)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
They'll do it the same way the U.S. sues other countries and foreigners!
How can they enforce the verdict? Well.. it's not too hard actually..
Can they *make* the US pay, under threat of prison? Of course not...
Can they change national policy and not deal with the US until the US pays up? Sure they can.
Did iCrave-TV obey a US court order, even though they are in Canada? Sure they did.. why? Not because the US troops could march in and get them, but because it seems liket he *proper* thing to do: defend themselves.
Open Source. Closed Minds. We are Slashdot.
Obviously you cannot sue the United States before any human court in this world. France can sue the United Kingdom in a court of the European Union, but it cannot sue the United States. The United Nations have been able to set up tribunals, notably to judge war crimes such as those that were committed in Bosnia, but it evidently cannot judge a state that is permanent member of the security council.
Only one court has been able to judge and condemn the United States, and that is the Russell Tribunal, during the Vietnam War. The Tribunal had no authority other than moral, but it did have very much prestige, and its role in bringing out fact to the public eye was of great importance.
This story about France sueing the US and the UK is a farce. However, it may be possible for a small group of individuals with enough prestige (say, the Electronic Frontier Foundation) to set up a special tribunal to judge that sort of matters. The tribunal's verdicts would not lead to any kind of punishment, but they would lead to public awareness, which is, after all, the most important thing.
By the way, `Canada' didn't exist in those days, in the sense you seem to mean: it was still part of the British Empire.
Actually, Canada was independant of both England and France in the late 1800's.
You're probably thinking of Newfoundland, where I live, which didn't join Canada until the late 1940's. We (Newfoundland) fought in the wars under Britain. The rest of Canada fought in the same way that a little brother helps out an older brother (sorry, can't think of a better analogy than that right now).
-----------
"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
More fundamentally, all the evils generally ascribed to corporations rely upon government as a facilitator (e.g. to take the most recent example described on /., abuse of copyright law requires the government to go along with the abusive interpretation and enforce it). On the other hand, the evils of government do not rely on corporations at all; some of the most evil governments in history did not allow the existence of private capital at all.
Hence, the root of the problem is at the government level.
/.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
All I can say is I'm glad to see someone with some power pissed off over Echelon. Now, if only this will help our attempts to control the NSA's crap here at home.
:)
The article did not post what the French want? Hopefully, they want damages and the shutdown of Echelon.. and don't just want in on the deal..
One thing I noticed:
Yesterday he said that he would bring an action on behalf of French civil liberty groups.
Actually, this makes it sound like it is not France suing the US and UK, but just French civil liberties groups. Can anyone clear this up?
Jeff
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Citroen spawned the humble, yet quite fantastic 2CV. One of its design specifications was that a farmer should be able to drive it over a bumpy, sandy path with a box of eggs, without a single egg breaking..they're pretty neat things :)
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
Every nation spies on its allies. While this doesn't scale well to personal relations, you need to know what they're doing so you know that they *are* still your allies. This Is Not something that the U.S. just invented ten years ago.
Jack Valenti and the MPAA are to technology as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone
Hey now! I'm from the US and we are all retarded red-neck idiots! But that doesn't mean you need to call us that to our faces!! You, you, you turd-vacuum! You, you unwashed haggis eating frog lover!
Can't we all just get along?
Just because there is a distasteful troll product of the US public school system in here doesn't mean you need to insult me by proxy as well.
.sig: Now legally binding!
Has anyone managed to find these documents?
I couldn't find anything mentioning echelon on nsa's public information releases or their list of "high-interest items".
I found a few sites mentioning echelon and P-415, though. This one mentions P-145 as being around for at least a decade. That site doesn't seem to be an unbiased source, though, because its homepage links to things like this rant about echelon with a really big font.
This is another site that mentions P-145 and mobile phone monitoring. It contains a document called "An Appraisal of the Technologies of Political Control", a long document which mentions echelon and discusses agreements among various countries regarding sharing of information obtained through echelon-like projects.
--
The shareholder is always right.
Give us the grail or we shall take your castle by force!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Just read The Puzzle Palace, there are many documented cases, and our allies know it, so what's the big deal? They do the same thing.
Occasionally there are prices to be paid for such actions. In the late 1960's Israel attacked one of our intelligence gathering ships when they realized we were probably listening to them. Dozens of americans were killed and it was essentially buried.
We go to amazing lengths in our SIGINT (signals intelligence) efforts.
There was once a project to build a dish antenna (a damn BIG one) for the NSA that was intended to pick up faint radio signals that were being reflected by THE MOON. I believe this project was cancelled. The engineering problems were myriad to say the least.
Ignore Alien Orders
Yes, I read it. THE PUZZLE PALACE also documents examples where american intelligence gathering agencies used data they had gathered to help american corporations.
My point was not to refute the article, but to question the SURPRISE that everyone up here seems to be showing about this.
It's been happening a long time, and their intelligence agencies are helping their corporations also.
I'm not agreeing with the practice, just talking about it.
Our intelligence agencies kill people too. We tried to kill Castro. Face it, deal with it, get over it, move on.
It's going to continue to happen. Don't be shocked next time.
Ignore Alien Orders
Come on, let's use the UN International court. It is hysterical. US charged with violating Cuba's soveirgnty (Bay of Pigs), convicted, US ignores.
I think we were convicted for one or two other covert deals in the 80s.
It rocks when the US is convicted and ignores the trial.
Note: this is sarcasm, not a troll
There is no body that can convict the US Gov't, save the US Court system (to give financial awards out) and France can hardly sue the US for International espionage.
This is silly. Come on France, play the cloak and dagger game. When you catch them, make a big stink of it, announce a boycott, trade sanctions, and pull your ambassador.
Oh wait, if they try for trade sanctions, the WTO can overturn them. If they violate that, then everyone gets to counter embargo within the WTO, kick France out, our whatever they want.
Let's see an International incident over this stupid project.
GO GLOBALIZATION!
I don't think it's about spying and money, but that Europe is fed with US being an arrogant
'bastard' ignoring and forcing forreing government to go 'The American Way'.
1) US ignores global warming. US just pis on the agreements made in Rio and Kyoto. Ignoring the fact that their largest state, Alaska, is suffering severely from global warming.
2) Forcing genetic engineered food down our throut, even though there is no evidence that it's safe for humans and environment. Actually UK have had an increase of 50% of people who is allergic to soya, after the introduction of genetic modified soya.
3) Forcing very strict encryption- and data-protectionlaws. Thanks to the US it's now illegal in Denmark to make backup-copies. Hey, it's even 'illegal' to surf the web (yeah, really stupid law, but apparently the pressure was so strung that the law needed to be rushed through).
3) Spying on everyboddy. Echelon have been a hot subject i Europe. Everyboddy have heard about it and noboddy could prove it's existence until recently.
That was the last straw, and the Airbus-issue (eg. this is NOT france vs. US/UK, but Europe vs. US/UK) is just a welcome 'excuse' to tell US to stop bullying contries around.
Bjarne