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Red Hat Teams with Real Networks
GregGardner writes, "According to this press release, RedHat and Real Networks are teaming together to bring Real products to Linux. RealServer 7.0 and RealPlayer 7.0 will be physically bundled with RedHat and that RealPlayer 7 will be released for Linux within 30 days on Real's Web site. "
Hopefully the RealPlayer for Linux won't hijack all my netscape/system settings like the mac version did. (NO I don't want to use RealPlayer to play WAVs. NO I don't want to use it to play MP3s...)
frustrating.
maybe it has something to do with Alpha not being produced anymore, PPC being mostly MacOS users, and sparc linux is only good on machines that you wouldn't want to run solaris on. ie: old ass sparcstations that you wouldn't want to run media apps on anyway. (before you flame me on this, I just want to point out that I own an old ass sparcstation, and I wouldn't want anyone wasting their time trying to support it. If I want RP on my sparc, I'll get a new one and then see if I can get a Solaris player) maybe it also has something to do with going for the largest portion of the linux market and deciding if it's even a good idea. If you want linux to start being recognized, dont bitch when people start doing it. maybe write a letter thanking someone for the level of support they're showing and suggest that they also consider the other platforms as well.
The GNOME and KDE projects at least distribute all their work under the GPL, which stipulates that you cannot distribute the software unless all its components are under the GPL. This condition would plainly be impossible to satisfy for a player that requires a closed Real library.
While the KDE folks have been known to play fast and loose with this requirement of the GPL (see for example any past flame war on QT), GNOME is official GNU software and hell would freeze over before the FSF releases anything using a proprietary Real library.
Changing the subject to get back on topic, I feel that the free software/open source community should avoid touching closed standards with a 10 ft pole. Closed software is one thing, and we can work around that given enough time, but closed standards are fatal to the free software cause. File formats and protocols used by companies like Real, Microsoft, etc. have a nasty habit of changing incompatibly whenever it suits the interests of the owning company. I personally am very disappointed that a company like Redhat that has been so supportive of free software in the past is now going to be held hostage to the whims of Real and their proprietary streaming protocol.
The fact that proprietary file format standards such as Realaudio and MS Office have a monopoly chokehold on their respective market is just one more problem that our community is going to have to overcome. I don't claim to have the answers, but I at least realize that it's a problem.
As Cringley reported, Microsoft's entry into the streaming media market is causing waves. There's no doubt in my mind that if M$ wasn't trying to 0wn this market, that Real Networks would continue to ignore Linux.
I sometimes wonder if Linux will ever be seen by business as something other than a loss leader. Why do only floundering companies come to Linux? Why can't Linux attract mainstream developers on the strength its userbase and programming API?
My humble apologizes for not closing a bold tag :)
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I can see a conspiracy theory starting right here
Enjoy
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Does anyone have any advice on hooking up xmms to netscape so that it acts as a plugin instead of just as a standalone app?
Check out XSwallow. According to its web page: X Swallow is a plugin i've cobbled together to allow any X program to be used as an inline viewer for any appropiate mime type. So a mime type like vrml for which there does not exist, as of the moment, a plugin for linux netscape can be viewed inline to netscape with ordinary vrml viewers such as vrweb/liquid reality.
I've used it with xanim for quicktimes, wavplay for wavs and the like. Its really pretty cool.
I have to shut down Win95 and startup Linux to listen to Internet streaming RealAudio !!
Something in my Win95 config is scrogged Again, causing the whole machine to lockup after maybe 30 seconds and I don't care to putz around with it anymore.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
And not just Linux non-x86 platforms are left out: so are other Unices, not to mention other OSes like BeOS and OS/2.
The Linux community is often guilty of the same assumptions that they so deplore in Windows users: that everyone uses the same as they do. Just as "computer" means a Windows-based PC to most people, "Linux" means Linux-x86 to most users. And they can be somewhat blind to those other operating systems with smaller user bases.
I don't think the RedHat-Real partnership is necessarily a bad thing. It's an OK thing. But it may take our eyes away from some more important goals: real freedom of choice and transparent interoperability. For this, we need real open standards (an open Real standard would be nice). Streaming media at the moment is essentially a contest between two closed, proprietary formats, and not only will neither company do the work to port their clients (not to mention servers) to OSes with a smaller user base (Redhat Linux x86 apparently has made the threshold now), but because the formats themselves are closed, no one else could do it if they wanted to.
Open standards are essential. Open source implementations can come next.
"I believe that the cult of the particular brings only death - for it bases order on likeness." St.-Exupery
As long as you are running on x86 (and I assume that is what they specifically mean by releasing a "Linux" version), couldn't you run all of the Real stuff under the FreeBSD Linux-emulation?
This sig is false.
that they offer a version that has nothing but free software. Because if they dropped all non-free stuff, nutscrape would have been yanked too.
Could be wrong, tho.
This sig is false.
I agree with you on the fact that if M$ ported to BSD, Real would very quickly follow. I don't even think it would take them a month. I can't imagine that moving Real* from Linux to BSD would take that long.
I also understand wanting to have it native. Now, I haven't tried it myself, but from what I hear from FreBSD'ers, almost nothing that runs under Linux can't be convinced to work under the emulation (short of something that needs a kernel module, and even than may be fixed now).
*shrug*
This sig is false.
Maybe because x86 has a bigger foothold on the desktop marked than the other platforms.
If you need quality, you go for Alpha and Sparc on the server. But on the server, you don't really need RealAudio etc.
Just a thought, not an excuse.
Je ne parle pas francais.
In fact, a number of components of such a system already exist and have been released in open source form (some of them by companies I have worked for), including H.xxx CODECs, MPEG CODECs, streaming media servers, etc. We also have good cross-platform toolkits for writing generic clients.
I disagree that having a proprietary solution on a free OS is preferable to having a proprietary solution requiring a proprietary OS in this case. If we go down that route, we may well end up with all proprietary software, formats, and protocols and only an open source kernel; what's the point of that? Supporting proprietary clients using proprietary protocols on a mainstream Linux distribution will simply help make those protocols more entrenched.
I think decisions like these are also important for RedHat's image. My organization is considering standardizing on some Linux distribution. We like Linux because it is based on open standards. RedHat has been very supportive of open source software and open standards so far, and has been sponsoring a number of open source development efforts. We want to do business with a company that continues to show that kind of commitment to open source.
Even if RedHat ships Real Networks software in the short run, I very much hope that RedHat will take the initiative and support a truly open source streaming media system. Streaming media are too important to leave them to a single company.
As someone else already pointed out, Real never opened up their file format. This means that they control the server and _also_ the content creation tools.
The tools is what ultimately matters, because otherwise we are at the mercy of Real and their corporate partners when it comes to video creation tools for Linux. And we want those, oh yes!
I think it's much better for Linux if we (the people) put our support behind QuickTime format. Yes, the best codecs are proprietary, but the file format is open, so someone can create an good open-source codec.
And Apple already gave us the Darwin Streaming Server, which is the open source release of their exellent QuickTime Streaming Server.
I have started work on enhancing and maintaining the source. Take a look at:
http://www.pobox.com/~kostya/videod
I have mixed feelings on this. Yeah, it will be nice to see something new from Real, but the whole privacy violation thing still sticks with me.
On the other hand, Real seems to be stuck with an old, slow, not very good codec. Yeah, in the beginning it worked great considering you were looking at it over a 28.8k modem, but today all I see it doing is dropping frames and doing a hell of a lot of buffering - even on xDSL.
I have farted around a bit with Windows Media Player and was most impressed with it - even on a 56k modem you got a lot of decent video. xDSL really helps it out. Of course, that is a Windows program and I like Linux better, so I use Real.
I am open to the whole thing, but am going to really reseve my judgement on the whole thing until we actually see the player and the servers in action. It would be cool as all heck though.
I wish there was a plugin for RealMedia files in XMMS, but if it exists, I haven't been able to find it.
I like XMMS just as much as the next guy, but in my opinion, the RealPlayer software is one of those "must have" apps for my Linux box. It may not be the best product in the world, and I know a lot of privacy zealots hate it, but let's face it, RealPlayer is still on top in the streaming media business. According to a recent blurb in Wired, RealPlayer has an estimated 90,000,000 users with over 33,000 downloads per week, well ahead of it's nearest competitor, Windows Media Player, with 40,000,000 users and just over 15,000 downloads per week.
This is another example of an application that may have been a stumbling block in moving from Windows to Linux for some people. Now don't get me wrong, I know that you can already get RealPlayer for Linux, but in my experience, it hasn't worked out too well. I am sure that it works great as-is for some people. My point is that RedHat could make a lot more inroads into the Windows empire by not only having a stable, efficient RealPlayer for Linux, but also by bundling it into the distribution so that the average user doesn't have to fight to get it working.
As far as I am concerned, this is nothing but more good news. Sure, there is going to be a negative side to it, but I think that overall this is the sort of news that the Linux community in general should be pretty happy to hear, and something that Real Networks should be advertising pretty blatantly.
Darrell Swoap
darrell
I'm an Open Source advocate, and yet I want this to happen. I want to see Real Player ship with Red Hat. Why? Because I want streaming video. The free efforts I've seen just don't cut the mustard.
However, perhaps Real can be persuaded to release source. After all, they rely on patents to defend their market, so giving out the source won't hurt them. It won't be Open Source, but at least it'll be source. The ability to fix bugs and partake in the development of new features cannot be underestimated.
it's right here: http://www.realnetworks.com/products/r edhat/
(darren)
Well, with linux, it would be possible to put the realserver in some kind of process confinement, where it would be unable to read anything else on the hard drive, nor able to contact any server except the one it is streaming from. You can't do that on Windows. You can't do it yet on linux either, but at least it's possible.
;)
Of course, they could have their process not run at all if it is confined. But then I would not run it at all.
will Real allow the server to be used without their licensing fees?
Royalty-free serving of content was touted as one of the big advantages of the Darwin Streaming Server, which is already available for Linux (better known as the QuickTime Streaming Server under Mac OS X).
<disclaimer> yes, there's no QuickTime Player for Linux. Yes, you can play older QuickTime movies (one snot encoded via Sorensen) on Linux. Yes, Apple should consider a client that includes the codecs. No, I don't work for them. </disclaimer>
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
If I were them, I would have it plastered in big letters. This is a great thing for the Linux community and for Real. I for one am tired of that old buggy G2 alpha.
Of course, they might have not had time to post it on their site yet.
Let the viewing of South Park movies in Linux recommence!
Plankeye
Who the hell told Carrot Top he was funny?
Rest assured Microsoft has no control whatsoever over Red Hat.
Yes, we are watching Microsoft (and *BSD and BeOS and other Linux distributions and and and), but that doesn't mean we're copying them. All Redhat is doing is waiting for Microsoft to make every move and then they mirror the same move
Please tell me, for example, when Microsoft started shipping source, when invented a packaging system that allows for real uninstallation, when Microsoft started to include a clustering system in Windows, or when Red Hat started providing the bluescreen module or putting lots of stuff that belong to userspace into the kernel.
Red hat doesn't want to create anything new.
It is true that right now, we aren't starting many new projects all by ourselves - but we're contributing to projects that do something new. Check the CVS commit logs of most interesting open source projects and you'll see commits from Red Hat employees (creating something new). Why would we want to, for example, create our own new desktop environment? Don't you agree that contributing to the ones we have (such as KDE and GNOME, both of which we're working on) is obviously a better solution?
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
Maybe if their Linux distro didn't suck so hard I woudln't mind
So, why do you think we suck?
Saying something sucks without giving reasons is easy, but doesn't help making anything better. (just like pointing out something doesn't suck - would it get us anywhere if I just replied with "Red Hat Linux doesn't suck"?)
If you have any constructive criticism, please let me know. If you think this is getting offtopic (it probably is), feel free to send it to me personally at bero@redhat.com.
This message is provided under the terms outlined at http://www.bero.org/terms.html
It was about time RealNetworks realised that Linux is is need if their products 8-) What would really be interesting would be to see an RH distro with the M$ media player...
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Real Player will be a nice binary only addition to the world of unix software, but feh.
Microsoft Windows Media Player and it's delightful array of codecs is much nicer to use than the bauble-intensive, ad-encrusted real player.
WMP also does fullscreen much more smoothly than RP and just generally sucks less. I would be delighted to have it available cross platform, even if it was binary only. (which it would be...)
Real tried to play hardball with MS and see where it got them...
-troll taker
I have had my share of bad luck with just about every single Real product I've gotten my hands on. For starters, their Real Player is the biggest little program I think I've seen in the recent past. It has to much junk bundled with it, it ridiculous. I have had problem with the Real Producer to. I was going to setup up streaming television over the LAN in my house. But Real Producer kept rebooting my system. The Real Server wasn't much better, but that actuall worked with some decency. I've tried to migrate away from most products by them.
All Redhat is doing is waiting for Microsoft to make every move and then they mirror the same move.
Who cares?
Red Hat is one Linux company. There are other distributions out there with other goals. Let them chase the market that they see. It is a business after all.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
It's not the bloated mess the Windows version has become... There is *way* too much junk in the RealPlayer app that is useless: Content Panel? AOL Instant Messenger? snap.com search bar? Please.
Just because Microsoft announced yesterday that Windows Media Server would be built into Windows 2000, does that mean we should match their every move with exactly the same thing or should we try to offer something better? All Redhat is doing is waiting for Microsoft to make every move and then they mirror the same move. That's why Rasterman left. RedHat doesn't want to create anything new. They just want to clone Microsoft by repackaging existing products that don't work.
Now, these have been asked by others (some of them at least, but I'd like to ask about them all together.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
(Yet Another Crappy Proprietary Video Standard)
I would really rather see most of these proprietary video standards go down the drain. I think most, if not all, of the functionality is present in one of the MPEG versions. AFAIK all video encoders do the same thing: DCT with quantization, and motion compensation on top of that. Big whoopee.
I'd like to see some nice MPEG streaming software as an alternative to things like this. The tech is all there, someone just has to slap it together. I'd do it, but I'm too lazy/stupid :)
What would be really swanky, and a great marketing move for Real, would be if they released a shared library for Linux and other free platforms. They don't need to release the source, just a library that can be linked against. Then we would no doubt have command line, X, GNOME, KDE, and probably some other versions of software that could play Real streams. Maybe we would also be able to make it use ALSA output, and integrate it with the X-Video extension to XFree86. The possibilities are endless with even this simple, non-open-source solution. I hope Real and RedHat are considering it.
As for the server, there is no way in hell I would run a binary-only server on my machine, especially if it wants to run as root or some such tripe.
-jwb
Think about it. Real shouts out, "YAY! we are gonna support our Real products under Linux." (the crowd rejoices) But most of us know Real's track record. Real STILL owns Xing, regardless of their stance on liunx. Real is also in the DVD software-decoding realm. The growth of RealMedia utils under linux is very welcome, but just like any good company, i'm sure that Real has a game plan. What of their involvement in the DVD/DeCSS debacle. It just seems too weird to me. I'd hate to see this deal come back to bite Linux (as a whole) on the ass. I haven't heard one peep come out of Xing about their poor implementation of the CSS encryption. RealPlayer or DVD software....doesn't matter. It still comes out of the same camp. Comments? Am i the only skeptic?
you never lose in ure razorblade shoes......Beck-Hotwax
> One more app that pushes me further toward finally deleting Windoze.
There's only one app you need for deleting windoze: It's called fdisk.
:)
Well, what about XMMS? I'm certainly not the expert here, but if it's got all the plugins that winamp does (and/or more), then I'll bet there's a plugin for XMMS that alows you to watch .rm files. Which would make Realplayer unnecessary for Linux unless it's just a better product. However, I'm not saying to not use Realplayer for Linux because we all want choice, right? That's all part of the open source ideal, no? So, I guess what I'm asking here is: How does Realplayer compare to XMMS/what we've already got? (realizing, of course, that XMMS isn't the only thing we've got for multimedia under Linux/Unix/etc....)
Insert mind here.
I'm happy to see that Red Hat is out there getting support for better linux ports. They're starting to sound a little like a lobbiest group. Of course, with M$ having very competitive products of the Real* products, this makes good business sense, too. We've seen some of this before with OS/2. I wonder if this time M$ will get competitive products out on the linux? They'll need to if they want to stay competitive.
-- Moondog
I think customers of Red Hat should let them know that they prefer that Red Hat support an open source streaming audio/media project, rather than bundling Real Networks software.
<p>
We're always in favor of something open sourced.
Please point me to an open-sourced solution for the same problem that:
<ul>
<li>is as widely in use/accepted by content providers</li>
<li>Has at least a client available for many platforms (as much as I dislike it, at this time, not many webmasters will switch to a streaming server that doesn't have a client on the evil empire's side)</li>
<li>Works reliably</li>
</ul>
(or at least will get there soon) and I'll make sure it gets included as well.
<p>Until we have something like it, I'd say having a proprietary solution on a free OS is preferable over having a proprietary solution requiring a proprietary OS, and no solution whatsoever on free OSes...
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*sigh* Yet another reinforcement that "Linux" == "x86 only". PPC, Alpha, Sparc, and all the other platforms are really wasted efforts; you should just suck it up and buy crappy Intel hardware. [end sarcasm]
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The Future: Some assembly required; batteries not included.
Your response is fair and pragmatic. But the original poster didn't bring up (and you don't address) the most disconcerting aspect of Real's recent business practice: their appropriation of personal information without individual permission.
Is Red Hat going to take steps to prevent this? How can we be assured that similar shenanigans won't occur in the future, assuming the product is going to remain closed-source?
I will be sorely disappointed in RH if these concerns simply go unanswered, and I certainly don't feel safe putting Real's binary on my system until the point has at least been addressed.
phil
BTW, I think it's great that Real is planning to put more effort behind Linux support. I'd love to see Apple step up with QuickTime support for Linux as well.
--
Dave Aiello
-- Dave Aiello
Using RealPlayer will only help their proprietary format get entrenched further. That means that we may have to live for a long time with their disregard for privacy and their haphazard clients. (I removed RealPlayer from my Linux machines a while ago.)
I think it would be better to look towards open alternatives and to contact web sites to use such alternatives. Streaming MP3 is a good choice for some applications. And there has been some work on other streaming media for Linux (e.g., here).
Furthermore, I think customers of RedHat should let them know that they prefer that RedHat support an open source streaming audio/media project, rather than bundling Real Networks software.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/00 0222/realnetwor_4.html
Because MS have just been tub-thumping about how Win2000 includes streaming servers built in with no further licenses. MS could make Linux a second-class web browsing platform if they could capture the streaming server market with a proprietary format for which no Linux player exists. This move is a step towards preventing that.
Hopefully RedHat will get the source code and ensure that the new RealPlayer is actually stable and useable under Linux.
This is exactly what we have been needing for Linux, a program that will collect our userinfo, and without our knowledge, send over the Internet.
No longer will people declare than Win98 is more user friendly. Linux users will be targeted by marketing analysts just as easy as Windows users.
Truly, this is a great day for all mankind!
-hemos.
I'm hemos., aka Jeff. Bates.. I help run this site, along with Rob. Malda.. I handle books, and generally posting storie
(I realize that the following sounds very opinionated. That's because it's an opinion. duh.)
Real's support for Linux products has always sucked. I remember reading a couple years ago about how Glaser originally liked to talk trash about Microsoft, but in the end Gates slapped him around a little and got him to work a little more 'in sync' with Microsoft. Afterwards M$ went ahead and bundled Windows Media Player with Windows. I would have thought at that point Real would start focusing more on it's non-Windows products.
When Realaudio first came out I thought it was just about the coolest thing in the world. Since then I've watched it become less and less relevant as other competition shows up. In the meantime I've just developed a distaste for Real's products, their annoying reminder messages, lack of regard for privacy, etc. Glaser just seems like an opportunist, and not a very good one at that. If there's one thing that impresses my about Real, it's that they're still around at all. I guess this has more to do with being the first to market than anything.
I think all this press release means is that Real found another free way to get their software distributed. I'll believe that they are truly making an effort to support their *nix users when I see it.
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