Slashdot Mirror
RedHat 6.2 - RSN
It seems that Redhat 6.2 will be out Real Soon Now - the mirrors (at least at metalab) are starting to get it. The main Redhat FTP doesn't have it yet - but it should be there in the next few hours... I think that the beta idea was a really good one (and I know lots of problems have been fixed since the beta was out - look at the rawhide directory in their FTP server). I hope other Linux distributions will follow RedHat with a public beta test before releasing a new version. (Thanks Udi for the info).
Aren't both Zoot and Piglet names of the residents of the castle Anthrax in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"?
As I posted - it is STARTING to get mirrored - NOT finished yet..
Hetz (Heunique)
Well, let me correct my post (if I can):
I meant to put a public beta to companies like: SuSE, Caldera, TurboLinux, Corel (no Corel - only to registered is NOT enough)..
Guess I'll have to select my words next time..
Hetz (Heunique)
-rw------- 1 root root 674054144 Mar 13 14:19 zoot-alpha.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 608845824 Mar 9 19:20 zoot-doc.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 671881216 Mar 9 13:39 zoot-i386.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 627785728 Mar 9 13:42 zoot-sparc.iso
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 594044928 Mar 9 13:41 zoot-srpms.iso
Hetz (Heunique)
Alpha? The *BETA* had already been released. You're going backwards. Oh! What? Um... Never mind.
:)
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Tell me more about this up2date; I must have missed it somewhere along the line.
You misread that.
.15.x makes more sense because .16.x will just cause conflicts with GNOME features and increase memory usage.
Sawmill is the default in the development versions of GNOME, not the current stable release series.
The version of GNOME that comes with RH6.2 is from the stable release series - this still depends on E.
Hence, E
As Bero said, once GNOME gets the current devel tree into a stable release, Sawmill will be the default GNOME WM and E will be updated.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
You really should expand on this; here's a list of what he is talking about:
- Iconbox - the place where X apps not mapped onscreen hide. GNOME provides a half-assed panel applet that is gigantic (screen real estate-wise), slow, ugly as sin and hard to use (IMHO); Enlightenment 0.16 provides a fast, simple, and customizeable Iconbox (or more htan one, if you prefer) that can be docked anywhere on screen, made completely transparent, horizonal or vertical, tiny (w/ or w/o scrollbars), etc,etc.
- Pager - a larger representation of a virtual desk. GNOME provides a plain pager applet that eats a lot of ram and doesn't display window contents; the Enlightenment version can do realtime updates, has drag-n-drop (ie dragging windows around inside the pager AND dragging windows from the pager to the iconbox and to the current screen), has a zoom feature, and isn't bound to a panel.
- Session management - GNOME provides session management, or restarting and repositioning applications each time X starts, via gnome-session and the associated session management in the GNOME control-center. Unfortunately, gnome-session is almost completely broken; entries get dropped or duplicated, things that shouldn't load keep doing so (specifically the help browser), and it doesn't provide any sort of error management for auto-launched apps (except when the app in question is a GNOME one, but noone runs all gnome apps). Then there's Enlightenment "session management": right-click on a window and select remember, select what you'd like E to remember, and press okay. No muss, no hassle. E doesn't get confused when apps die, it doesn't bitch about more than one application running, it doesn't launch arbitrary applications when they're not on the list, it doesn't make you fight with runlevels, and it cooperates nicely with your
.xsession and .xinitrc settings (before anyone argues with me, yes it does; I use .xsession at work and .xinitrc at home w/ remmebered apps). - Applets - mini applications. GNOME provides applets in the panel, but supposedly allows apps to be docked in the panel, making them panel applets too. (I recommend any Xlib programmers skip the next part, 'cuz it'll probably make you gag). Unfortunately, panel provides this docking functionality via XReparentWindow(), which is not supposed to be used by apps, only by window managers. Other than that, Enlightenment doesn't restrict applets in any way. If you want them, Enlightenment also provides very nice enlightenment-specific applets called epplets, which sync up with your current theme to look pretty. These do not interfere with GNOME, and they're completely optional (very much like WindowMaker dockapps -- i noticed they includeda recent version of WM).
As for Enlightenment 0.16 having a higher memory footprint, apparently you're a bit behind on the times as far as memory management goes. Linux (and virtually every other UNIX and UNIX clone) has virtual memory (unused memory pages are swapped out of memory to disk), and LOD (load on demand, where data isn't fetched until it's needed -- the reason unstripped binaries have the same memory footprinta s non-stripped binaries). Please don't talk about things you are obviously not qualified to talk about in a public forum.Plus, E16 includes a lot of really useful features that E15 doesn't have: bug-fixes, speed-improvements, KDE support, window grouping, window layering, better menu support, GUI configu tools, and a ton of other things I'm sure i'm forgetting.
--
odds of being killed by lighning and
Odds of being killed by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day: 1 in 2^55
actually it didn't remove GNOME support by default. it's just using all the buttons on the root window. you can easily change this by reading the INSTALL doc, or looking in the FAQ. I actually included a keybindings.gmc.cfg that turns the mousebutton behaviour back to the 0.15 style specifically for this reason.
--
Geoff Harrison (http://mandrake.net)
Senior Software Engineer - VA Linux Labs (http://www.valinux.com)
Geoff "Mandrake" Harrison
Some Random UI Hacker
Strange... I installed the beta three weeks ago, and have yet to have any problems with it. Ah well, I'll just do the 'real' 6.2 install just to be safe.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Perhaps my post was misinterpreted. I was trying to raise some legitimate questions about RH6.2. I can't justify spending ~$40 to go from 6.1 to 6.2. Perhaps some added functionality should be added before charging all that dough-ray-me to a ser who already bought 6.1. RedHat: if you include a licensed DVD player-- even a closed source one -- you will own my next laptop installation! For a "Commercial Product" I expect more than repackaged GNU software. The speedy updates are nice.... but remember they're not included in the "Free" version. (I'm incoherent cause its ~3am...)
We mirror automagically so's we picked up their permissions and of course we left them the way RH had them until they asked us to do otherwise.
When RH tells us to open'em back up, we will.
Certified Black Helicopter Pilot *** Unwitting Dupe of One World Gov'ment
I've been using Red Hat's Enlightenment 15.5 on my Linux notebook, an IBM ThinkPad 770Z with 1280x1024 screen and 256MB RAM. You can see I don't really care about memory use that much :-) - except that something called ld-linux.so is chewing up half my memory for some reason - is this the Enlightenment memory leak Raster talks about? And if it isn't, any idea what it might be?
:-(.
Is there a non-horrifying procedure to upgrade my notebook to the latest Enlightenment? Could some kind soul give me an idea of what it is? When I last tried installing Enlightenment, it took about a week for my system to become vaguely usable
Raster claims there's a terrifying memory leak in this package - is this why my ld-linux.so appears in top as consuming 100mb RAM after the system has been running for a while.
Many thanks for any ideas
D
----
My Netscape has been surprisingly well-behaved recently. It runs about as well as it does on my SGI workstation. It used to be Linux netscape was a lot crashier than on the SGI..
:-( ).
Or it might just be because I'm testing my web site using this system as both a client and a server, and I don't use very many complex HTML tricks (don't want to confuse poor Netscape, after all
Thanks for the responses, all. I'll just remember to shut down Netscape more often.
D
----
..." I do like the flexibility of E and the fact that it can be quite efficicient when you want it to be, but that pager is the biggest CPU hog ever. Its pretty, but I don't see enough functionality to justify the resources it demands, even
:) as has been noted almost everyhting is E is turn-off-able - if the feature is a bit too much for your box.. it can be turned off - for my mahcines it was barely noticeable that it was turned on.. :) just a remiinder that E is configurable.. if a feature "offends" you - visually, cpu-wise etc.. u can turn it off :)
:)
on a reasonably fast machine.
"
turn snapshottign off - you'll find them as fast as any other pager
BTW - dunac was noting the memeory footprint of the code i think in his VM comment - so even if the code is bigger - unused code pages are never paged in form disk.. thus they may appera to take ram in PS and TOP - but infact they don't = if that page of code is not executed
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
What version of the kernel is included?
I only ask because this afternoon was going to be the "download backpatch, compile and try to get USB mouse + keyboard working" session.
----- Documentation is worth it just to be able to answer all your mail with 'RTFM' - Alan Cox.
Whoop-de-do! I can get them for free off the web.
And you can't get RedHsat 6.2 Free off the web?
I found the HOWTO to be the most useful.... You can install onto an UltraATA drive, it's just a pain in the ass :) Mandrake 7 didn't work for me, but RH 6.1 did.
How's about the other perspective: anyone who takes a look at one distribution and deduces "linux sux" from its foibles OUGHT to go back to windoze??
Of course, the idea that Linux is the kernel and GNU/linux is the set of utilities + kernel that constitutes an OS, and that distributions are Linux distributions, does mean that there's some conformity. All you need is reasonable testing both of all the packages (by the authors and other users) and of the sum total distribution (particularly the distinguishing features like linuxconf / yast / debconf / whatever), and then it'll all work bar the bugs they let through.
Has anyone noticed that "it should work" has got further than "we tested on X and Y and will support it on X"?
~Tim
--
Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
Where's the rush? Couldn't they wait just a little more for a usable XFree 4.0 and perhaps even a 2.4 kernel and a 2.2 glibc? Or will that all be in 6.3 or whatever the next release is?
Oh well, I guess there's always something just around the corner.
--
I have the dream that some day all networking programs will fully support IPv6; that I won't have to masquerade my IP address any more; that the DNS will work intelligently; that my browser will be Mozilla, and will be stable; that it will fully support CSS2, MathML and Unicode, and that I'll have all the appropriate fonts for that; that my kernel will be the Hurd; that I can program my TV recording in Scheme...
Will the RSA patent expire in time for SSH to make it into 7.0?
www.eFax.com are spammers
There's just one other thing that's been bothering me.</voice>
Will there be an option in 7.0 to set the default RPM options to build for Pentium/PPro/PII[I]?
www.eFax.com are spammers
Actually, the Free BeOS ver 5 download is on Tuesday, March 28. I know that me and half the Geek World will be downloading the bastard OS. With my luck, we'll slashdot all the server and all the mirrors within a half an hour. Right about when I have 59 megs of the 60 meg download. ARGG!
if you guys like, you can see the future nesting site of the BeOS5 here.
There's nothing there yet.
Rami James
Pixel Pusher
Altec Lansing R&D, IL
--
rJames.org - illustration
jdk is not free, and not even freely redistributable; in short we can't include it because of its restrictive license.
We're working on some alternatives though.
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That's exactly what we're doing in 6.2.
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We're including it in powertools.
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XFree86 4.0 didn't make it because it isn't ready for prime time.
I've posted some reasons (and an RPM download location) on a different thread here; check
this.
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XFree86 4.0 is not ready for prime time.
If you want RPMs nevertheless, get them
here.
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Wrong, by the way - Raw Hide has been around longer than the Mandrake distribution.
Yes, we are taking ideas from Mandrake - after all, they're taking ideas from us, as well. There's nothing wrong with that...
And why would you call us arrogant? If we were, would our people be caught posting on slashdot?
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piglet is the beta. You don't want to get that.
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Definitely - Kernel 2.3.99 is already in the tree that will become rawhide as soon as someone updates the ftp servers.
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Actually we're releasing both betas (6.2-beta) and the development tree (rawhide), so unless I'm missing something, there's no need to follow anyone on this.
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Both of these bugs are specific to the beta and can be fixed by updating to the release (or at least some packages from the release).
The KDE problem is caused by an incomplete patch in the kdebase RPM, so you'll want to update that one.
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As of 12:39pm, Aust. EST, I've counted 26 posts from him. It's probably a record for any Linux company representative (Anyone have statistics on this?) on PR duty. Just curious bero, what position do you have at RedHat?
I recently had the pleasure of meeting Robert Young, the CEO of RedHat at the Australian Linux Expo, and he said that a majority of Slashdoters held the conception that they were the M$ of the Linux world and out to profit from the OSS community. From this misconception, some might believe that RedHat had lost touch with the OpenSource Community, but as bero-rh has clearly shown us during the last two days this is far from the truth.
Being a Debian user, I hope that someone from Debian will also make such a commitment to Slashdot posts. I hope you're listening out there Vicent, Deb, and Ian! But as a past RH user, I'd like to congradulate and thank bero-rh for his work at Slashdot. You've set a fine example to Linux distributers everywhere.
On behalf of Slashdot, thank you very much bero-rh
-- "I can't tell the future, I just work there." -- The Doctor
Maybe someone can answer why some packages are really outdated. Examples? readline 2.2.1. We're at 4.1, and I remember someone from RedHat saying at a list that 4.0 wasn't included because it isn't binary compatible with 2.2.1. But it was before a beta for 6.0. slang 1.2.2. We're at 1.4.0, another major release. No need to mention tcl/tk 8.0.5. We're at 8.3.0. OK, they'll be all in 7.0. Now think about including IceWM, Pavuk, Qps, Kim, among others useful applications. The svgalib graphics library is now depracated and DOSEMU moved to Powertools. I wonder why. And their versioning scheme isn't accurate. As an example, lynx-2.8.3-2 means what? The final 2.8.3 wasn't released. We're still at 2.8.3dev22. IMHO unfortunately RedHat actually is focusing on newbies and including too much useless (I said popular?) applications. I may consider switching to Slackware in my next installation. But it's still a great Linux distribution.
How to contact me - http://www.pervalidus.net/contact.html
umm, where is the announcement for this?
Don't be mean or my friend Oog will smash your head
I noticed that Bero was posting a fair amount here, so I wondered if he, or anybody else, could answer a couple of quick questions.
When will Red Hat include a general-purpose security tool or hardening script? In particular, I'm thinking of Bastille Linux, which was designed specifically for RH6.0 and 6.1. And when I saw "include" I don't mean "stick it on the CD in between XEyes and an ancient version of GNUChess, I mean, actually making users aware of it and even incorporating it into a post-install stage. Around here, Linux has gotten a really bad reputation for security, becuase RH6 had a fair number of holes and admins didn't bother to plug them.
One of the biggest differences between a Linux distribution and a commercial Unix distribution is that most of the Unices ship with very, very, very little software (how the hell do they still take up so many CDs without a frickin' copy of bash?!?). However, this does put an extra responsibility on Linux companies to provide a centralized set of tools to remove, shut down, or otherwise patch included utilities that might be hazardous to the system.
Also, when is Red Hat going to make it easier and more foolproof to install necessary fixes? I think the priority FTP access is a nice start, and a good way to add value for your serious customers. But (and I haven't used Red Hat since 6.0, please correct me where I'm wrong) do you have a tool to automatically download secure updates when they become available? And are registered customers automatically notified by email of potential security holes or show-stopping bugs, along with steps to correct them? A lot of Linux systems don't have full-time administrators who can afford to read security sites every day, but that's the kind of service that we all want to pay a Linux distributor to do for us.
Thanks a lot, and I wish you guys well with 6.2!
--JRZ
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
Deprecated doesn't mean removed; it's just a recommendation not to use it anymore and a warning that it might disappear or be replaced in a future version.
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Did you actually see 6.1 or 6.2?
We have up2date, which does pretty much the same as MandrakeUpdate.
And you can always download the full 6.2 (as well as individual packages from it) from our ftp server or one of the mirrors.
The Updates we're selling are primarily for people who either need support (every Red Hat Linux package includes support) and for people who can't download (In some countries, downloading 640 MB is way more expensive than buying a Red Hat Linux package. In some countries, net access is not very common.)
As I've pointed out before, XFree86 4.0 is not even near ready for being in a main release (SuSE 6.4 [to be released soon] still uses 3.3.6, as well); a RedHatUpdate program is included (and has been updated to fix most of the problems the version included in 6.1 had), and we can't ship a DVD player while DeCSS is illegal.
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It won't be delayed as long as it was in 6.1.
The big problem with alphas is that their binaries are huge - most of the time it's a problem getting everything to fit on a CD.
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It was the latest beta at the time the CDs went into production.
And the big difference is that Qt 2.1.0 is a beta, but very stable, and XFree86 4 is called a release but it won't be anywhere near ready for quite a while.
Including Qt 2.0 wouldn't make much sense because close to nothing uses it [and the few apps that do can deal with 2.1]. Qt 2.1 can be used to run the KDE 2 betas, including interesting stuff like KOffice, so including the beta here definitely makes sense.
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It's primarily a gnome integration thing.
0.16 introduces some features that are simply doubling functionality that's already provided by gnome; in our default configuration, it doesn't add much aside from stuff that would be turned off and a larger memory footprint.
With sawmill probably becoming the default window manager for gnome, we'll probably update enlightenment for the next version.
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There have been other reasons than payment (some technical stuff, too early releases, and some more stuff). Introducing new features often also introduces new bugs; if it had been my decision, the releases would definitely have had more testing.
Red Hat does NOT consider itself as the only Linux distribution.
I know as well as anyone else that Linux is 99% made from community work, but Mandrake taking ideas from RH is not a joke at all (and there's nothing wrong with that; anything that works both ways is good); check most spec files to see what's going on.
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the people who are going to benefit from e16 are people who aren't running gnome. the way redhat ships pretty much relies on gnome or kde running, and someone who is concerned enough to customize what wm they are running and decides against running both gnome and kde is probably capable of getting an e16 rpm. one nice thing about this is that the e15 rpm can have good gnome/kde friendly settings and the e16 rpm can be setup for more of an enlightenment only install.
try to be more open minded about decisions that are made by linux distros, they really are less political than they seem at first glance
Don't be mean or my friend Oog will smash your head
1) zoot-i386.iso
2) RedHat 6.2
And check out my site, for my web-based Gnutella client, Phreedom.Net.
-Davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
zoot-doc.iso 594576 Kb Fri Mar 10 00:20:00 2000
zoot-i386.iso 656134 Kb Thu Mar 9 18:39:00 2000
zoot-sparc.iso 613072 Kb Thu Mar 9 18:42:00 2000
zoot-srpms.iso 580122 Kb Thu Mar 9 18:41:00 2000
And then I realized that minutes after I announce it it will be slashdotted and my download speed will drop.
Shall I be selfish?
sgc://qbjaybnq.fbheprsbetr.arg/cho/zveebef/erqu
----
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
2.2.15 as in 6.2 beta == 2.2.15pre-something + patches.
2.2.14 as in 6.2 final == 2.2.14 + some but not all patches from 2.2.15pre + patches - 2.2.15 was not released in time.
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I'm not trying to rain in the RedHat parade here or start a distro flamewar (trust me, I've seen enough already), but Debian - the non-profit Linux distribution has had public betas for each of their distributions for years now. It is under a development tree called "frozen" as opposed to the "stable" tree and the "unstable" tree (alpha testing).
However, Debian's testing periods, aka. freezes last for quarters on ends (the current freeze "Potato" has lasted for three months already, and I still haven't seen it about to end anytime soon) just to iron out nearly every bug as compared to other distrubutions. Just check out the update trees and see how short Debian's one is! Being a Debian user myself (and past RedHat user as well), I find it very frustrating that Debian takes forever to include new versions of packages, despite the advantages of the mature and proven.
But when one thinks about it, if anyone downloads the latest source code from each programmer that contributes to distros, then you'd have a distribution more cutting edge than any distro could provide you with. The only problem is that you risk cutting your hand off with a system filled with packages so new that they collide with each other due to inital teething. No one really has time for that, so let the distros do the packaging.
It's nice to see RedHat following Debian's innitiative of releasing public betas and publicising it too. I've always admired how cutting edge RedHat is when it comes to bundling new packages, but I've never really liked downloading 80MB worth of patches for every version of a distribution 6 months after the initial release. Let's hoped RedHat's upped the ante for the other commercial releases.
-- "I can't tell the future, I just work there." -- The Doctor
Subject says it all - don't judge a new version by what is on a mirror that's not done downloading (the fact that it's publically accessible while in this state is a bug).
/ iso.
Once they're finished downloading, the iso will be at
ftp://metalab. unc.edu/pub/Linux/distributions/redhat/redhat-6.2
Also, if you don't like it, let me know WHY (not that I'd agree). We're here to fix things.
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We're not including XFree86 4.0 because it's not ready.
It doesn't compile at all on sparc (we're currently working on fixing this), doesn't compile out of the box on alpha (we've already fixed that), doesn't have all the drivers 3.3.x used to have (fixing that is a LOT of work), it doesn't have a working configuration tool yet (XFree86 -configure is a start, but it won't let you configure international keyboards and such), and there are a bit too many bugs for a stable release even in the drivers that are there.
In short, it's not even ready for Raw Hide.
I have put up RPMs at
http://people.redhat.com/bero/experimen tal though, for those who have x86es and don't like waiting.
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Outdated packages: .spec file used to build the RPMs.
In 6.x releases, one of the primary goals is to remain fully compatible with prior 6.x releases, therefore we usually won't update libraries with API and ABI changes, such as current readline, slang or tcl/tk.
Stuff that was built for 6.0 or 6.1 must be able to run on 6.2 without having to recompile, which is not possible with a change like readline 2.2.1->4.0.
The current versions are all in our internal development tree (which will become rawhide on Tuesday).
SVGALIB
Deprecated because it causes a lot of problems on some systems (try switching terminals from X to SVGALIB and vice versa on a Matrox G200 card, for example).
DOSEMU
We needed more space on the main CD for more important packages, so we moved some not-so-important packages like dosemu to powertools. This doesn't mean they aren't available or supported through bugzilla.
Versioning scheme
lynx-2.8.3-2 means it's the second version of a Red Hat Linux RPM containing a 2.8.3 release of lynx.
The -2 indicates changes to the
Other packages
Diskspace issue; some of the packages you mentioned are in powertools, I'll check whether it makes sense to add the others to powertools as well.
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"Thanks" to the RSA patent, we can't ship SSH or OpenSSL (which is required by OpenSSH).
We are building RPMs for it at Red Hat Germany (where there is no RSA patent) though; they can be downloaded at
ftp://ftp.redhat.de/pub/rh-addons/s ecurity/6.2.
We will include them as soon as the RSA patent expires (later this year).
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It's not a lame excuse. I'm a developer, not a marketeer. The general idea is to include the version that makes most sense.
In our default setup, enlightenment is used only when GNOME is running. e 16 does not have many new features that make sense in that environment, but it is a lot bigger, so it makes this environment slower on low-memory machines.
Including the Qt beta makes sense because almost nothing uses Qt 2.0, but some interesting stuff uses Qt 2.1 (which is compatible with everything 2.0 did).
If this were for political reasons, 'rm -f enlightenment*; sed -e "s,enlightenment,sawmill,g" $CONFIG_FILES' would be a much more consistent decision (so that would be what we would have done).
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