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More Yopy, The Linux PDA
Codeine writes: "The Linux PDA Yopy, mentioned back in February is getting
closer...
" Lots of specs and details now. Still no release date.
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What is YOPY? (What stands for YOPY?)
YOPY stands for spirit of young & intelligent who want to speedy usage of multimedia function through PDA. The target market is young generation whose accustomed to mobile application.
So WHAT does it stand for???...
Want a cool job?
I think you may have a misconception about what 'Linux' really is. It's just a kernel. That's it. The entire CD full of stuff is applications galor, many of which people will *NEVER* use. Linux is just as suited for the embedded market as any other operating system. With limited device support, a kernel could easily fit in under 300k. Add a few applications for manipulating a screen, and it's done. The primary limitation I can see here is that the GUI is most likely provided by NanoGUI or one of the other projects that target a low profile replacement for X. Unless they come up with compatible libraries for NanoGUI, then existing applications cannot simply be 'Run', but require a porting effort.
;-P
Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is that none of the Win32 applications technically use the GUI as part of the operating system. It's just a library that ends up working the display. That's it. Moving a peice of code in and out of system versus user space is VERY simple. Just becouse we choose to keep our GUI's in userspace for stability doesn't make it any less OR MORE integrated that any of the GUIs presented by other companies..
The ease of use argument I think is a matter of perspective. Get your grandma. Give her two computers, one running Windows, one running something like Corel Linux. *USABILITY* in this environment will not be any different. Grow up in a Microsoft world, and anything different is, well, strange..
Linux is a VERY viable platform for a PDA, in short..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Surely an OS as big as Linux - taking a whole CD-ROM up as it does - is not the obvious choice for a small device with limited capabilities? Wouldn't a custom built OS for this kind of device such as EPOC or Windows CE be much better suited in this domain?
Linux does not take up a whole CD-ROM; not by a long way. Linux is just the kernel -- the rest of the CD is taken up by applications, tools, servers, stuff like that.
One nice thing about Linux is that you can recompile the kernel with as many or as few features included as you like. For a device such as this, a lot of device drivers could be removed, making the resulting kernel really quite small.
Also, I am wondering whether the Linux GUI, GNOME, is of sufficiently high standard for the purposes of an "easy to use" device such as he Yopy. From what people have shown me, it seems to be somewhat complex and has a lot of non-standard interface features which users will be unconfortable with. Since the GUI is part and parcel of the operating system, isn't this another reason why Linux is the wrong choice for the PDA domain?
Part of the UNIX philosophy is that the GUI is in no way "part and parcel of the Operating System". I'd be very surprised if Yopy's GUI used X, Gnome, or any window manager we've heard of. It is more likely to use a custom-written graphics library, or possibly a port of something like GGI.
Anyway, your thoughts as representatives of the open source community would be appreciated on this issue, because I can't really see why this is any more than a publicity stunt, cashing in on the "geek coolness" of the Linux brand name. Thanks.
There's an element of truth to this. The buzzword factor of using Linux will certainly appeal to them. There's a school of thought that says that a multitasking operating system is overkill for a palm computer...
.. but in the end -- why not? If this PDA can run Linux well in an affordable package, with an acceptable battery life, then I'm all for it. It means I could write an httpd for it, without learning a new API... It means the developers of this box don't need to write a new OS from scratch, or licence a closed-source OS.
It means that if Yopy doesn't work exactly how I want it to, maybe(*) I'll be able to do something about it.
(*)I say "maybe" because I'm not sure that the apps (such as the GUI) running on Yopy will be Free Software -- it's entirely possible that only the kernel will be Free.
--
or does a "Yopy" sound like it should be a small harmless alien in some adventure game? or maybe a one-eyed yellow smiley face? i dunno. where do they get this things, anyway? :-/
- Fits into my pocket. This is very important.
- Boots up within a second or two.
- Stores my information.
- Doesn't need to be recharged every two hours.
So far, my Palm IIIxe with 8MB of memory and a 16MHz processor does just fine. I'm not saying I wouldn't like more RAM or a faster processor. And I'm not saying that I don't want Linux or a color screen. I'm saying that the thing should not require me to upgrade my pocket to use it.My Palm is 119mm x 81mm x 17mm and weighs 170g. This thing is 128.8mm x 83.5mm x 19.9mm and weighs 225g. The difference is pretty significant, since my Palm is of the thicker and heavier variety, and I'd like my next PDA to be smaller, not bigger.
Just my $2*10^-2. <g>
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So WHAT does it stand for???...
Drawing on my somewhat limited knowledge of Korean, I'll take a wild guess that it's a diminution of Yoposaeyo "Hello, are you listening?"
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Unlike Compact Flash modules which, what, magically appear when needed?
they promise plenty of modules... many will never be produced in the hand
[laugh] Oh the irony of criticizing vaporware in this context. Yup, many Springboards are vaporware and may never see the light of day. But the YOPY itself is vaporware, innit? I've got a Visor sitting here on my desk.
Who said anything about a CLI? It's a big misconception to think that a palmtop will be just like a desktop linux machine because it uses a stripped linux kernel...
Because it's stable, well established, there's a body of experienced developers, it's easily customized, it can be stripped down to the bare essentials, it can be easily modularized, and it exists.
IMHO, it's a lot easier to take an existing OS that can easily be stripped and has a strong developer community than to create your brand new OS from scratch and force future developers to learn to program for it. Especially something like this where third party apps are a huge reason for getting one.
i'm worried about the device trying to be a full featured computer. The palmOS is so successful because it's an organizer that can function like a computer... WindowsCE (and from the looks of pocketPC we're in for more of the same) is a computer that can act like an organizer.
Why is it that people assume that whatever can fit in their pocket can never be more than a glorified phonebook? Palm, being first and very simple, taught people not to expect much from a PDA and now everybody is worried (!) that a PDA might do more than what they are used to.
You may want nothing more than a very basic organizer. But why do you think that all other people are the same? I, for example, don't want an organizer. I want a computer that happens to fit in my pocket. Provided that it's small enough and its battery will last at least for the whole day, I want it to do as much as possible, starting from twiddling a spreadsheet to listening to MP3s.
it would be cool to be able to switch to another tty on my palm and start some hacking
No, it wouldn't. Remember that there is no keyboard. It's very doubtful that CLI is a good interface for a PDA. It should be there, "just in case", but user-interface-wise a PDA is radically different from a desktop.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
As a fully-qualified professional IT consultant employed by one of the leading names in the software industry
If you puff up any more, you're likely to blow up. Would be a pity, dontcha think?
I am engaged in a study into the "open source" (thanks to people for correcting my misconception about freeware vs. open source) phenomenon started by Linus Torvelds and his Linux operating system suite.
Oh, God. Didn't anybody tell you that bureacratese is NOT a good way to write or speak? This is Slashdot, not a corporate presentation.
And, BTW, the guy's name is Torvalds.
Surely an OS as big as Linux - taking a whole CD-ROM up as it does - is not the obvious choice for a small device with limited capabilities?
First of all, there are Linux variants which fit on a floppy (or two). Second, as with any modern operating system the great majority of it (volume-wise) is taken by hardware drivers. Third, Linux is fairly modular and can be stripped down considerably without losing core functionality (see first).
Wouldn't a custom built OS for this kind of device such as EPOC or Windows CE be much better suited in this domain?
May be and may be not. It all depends how well this custom OS was built, no?
Also, I am wondering whether the Linux GUI, GNOME, is of sufficiently high standard for the purposes of an "easy to use" device such as he Yopy.
Linux has no "official" GUI. Two -- GNOME and KDE -- are the most widespread. In any case, both GNOME and KDE desktops are constructed for the desktop machines which assumes large screen space and a keyboard + some pointing device (mouse). It's fairly clear that PDAs will need their own GUIs, or at least heavily modified versions of desktop GUIs.
Since the GUI is part and parcel of the operating system
No, it isn't. You are thinking in terms of Windows where it is. For Linux (and any UNIX in general) GUI is a completely separate level that is technically not a part of the operating system at all.
Anyway, your thoughts as representatives of the open source community would be appreciated
Aw, shucks [blushes]...
I can't really see why this is any more than a publicity stunt, cashing in on the "geek coolness" of the Linux brand name.
Again, that may well be true, but not necessarily. It's usually fruitless to discuss vaporware, since the correct answer is "It depends". It is possible for Yopi to turn out a bungled, ugly, unusable device which no one in his right mind will touch with a 10-foot pole. It is also possible for it to turn out an elegant and useful PDA, able to successfully compete with the Palms, iPaqs, Casios and Psions. We don't know yet.
In any case, the underlying operating system has little to do with the success or failure of a PDA. Even leaving the marketing issues aside, the elegance of GUI (which doesn't have to do much with the underlying OS) and the applications is much more important than what code twiddles the hardware underneath.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
This guy wraps all his questions in "fully-qualified yada yada yada (hence AC)". Think about if for a second and you'll realize this is total nonsense.
Go back and read some other stories at -1 and you'll find him again.
--
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It's got MP3, color LCD screen, digital video, etc and it runs on a single 1.5V battery? I've heard ARMs were low wattage, but come on! How long is that battery expected to last?
Also, I note that by "weight" they have "225" (no units). I hope that's not pounds...
--
Have Exchange users? Want to run Linux? Can't afford OpenMail?
Linux MAPI Server!
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(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Two things:
1. Check out this link for a device which appears to be (relatively) successfully making a whole PC in a PDA-type device. No batteries, but enough storage to carry darn near anything you'd need. This is an interesting concept, but inexplicably does not have a network connection, which seems to indicate some sort of serious cognitive dysfunction on the part of those responsible for defining the product's features.
2. I think the Yopy folks at Samsung are on to something. If not in the initial product, then with the second rev, when it will be a bit more practical to stuff lots of storage and a built-in ethernet or bluetooth interface into the thing. Don't look at this as a PDA replacement so much as a PC adjuct. This is really the same market Microsoft is aiming for with their new PocketPCs, but I think the Yopy is closer to getting it right.
(I've thought a lot on this topic, enough that I'm considering writing a book. Or maybe statring a company - calls from VCs accepted also...[grin])
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
It needs more I/O options, like ethernet, maybe through the CF slot? Also it needs VGA out.
I'd love to have a small, cheap, easily programmable device.
Think of the applications you could have with a few more I/O options:
Network appliance -- A client is getting attacked by the BIND vulnerability, so I drop this in and have it sniff DNS queries. Or maybe I leave it on site as a temporary firewall.
Lab appliance -- a scientist might want a whole rack of these. With A/D, it could serve as a multimeter, do rough and ready duty as an oscilloscope, control experiments and collect data from them. Plug in a battery of instruments and it can take environmental measurements with GPS time and location stamps (I'm already donig this, but the closed source tools suck). Field scientists can use them to download data from instruments in the field.
Portable server appliance. I hate lugging tons of computers to trade shows. So, maybe I could get away with each guy bringing a laptop and running a teeny tiny demo server on a PDA sized box. If I could get a couple hundred meg of storage and ethernet into a package this size, I'd never have to pay a teamster to lug a server into the exhibit hall again.
Portable game client: add a wireless networking card and a head mounted display, and Quake away while you're waiting for your restaurant check.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
This PDA is getting closer to my ideal. I'm currently a medical student and I've realized that while my Palm is a godsend, it still has a far way to go.
First, my palm has been a godsend thanks to some online books/databases of diseases and drugs. Instead of carrying around 20 pounds of paper in my jacket, instead I carry one Palm IIIx with 8mb on my waist. I can search for data quicker and find more of it than I could had I paper on me. I also can track patients with my palm. Less paper.
But, I need a PDA that can replace my beeper and cell phone too - without sacrificing screen size and without getting much larger than my current PalmIIIx. And it needs to be able to take dictation (and ideally, translate it to text). And it needs to do these things with a battery life of about 3 weeks - which is what my current device gets.
Yeah, that's a tall order. But it's coming. I figure the ability to take dictation will come first - mono MP3 compression of voice would make the files small and easy to transfer. The YOPY appears to have this. Now, I want it to be a beeper and a cell phone without compromising size.
And I don't need a color screen, especially if it interferes with battery life. I want a PDA - Personal Data Appliance or Palmsized Data Appliance (whatever suits you) - not a PED - Personal Entertainemt Device. I want a functional piece of portable hardware that improves my ability to work, not something that will entertain me while I'm bored for 10 minutes.
And I'm willing to spend up to $1000 US for such a device.
Linux - Because Mommy taught me to Share.
Shouldn't be to hard.. I'd love to be able to code on the road.. ;-)
Just needs a little fold out keyboard like the new palm one.(which can be seen here: http://store.yahoo.com/pilotgear/palac.html )
I so want a machine I can fit on my belt and bust out and program on whenever the need hits.
Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
206MHz speed Microprocessor will enable you to run any exciting application on YOPY.
:)
What about those boring applications that I have? Spreadsheets aren't very exciting, but sometimes the need does arise to make them, can YOPY run these less exciting apps?
Enjoy the game of 65,536 colors with powerful stereo sound.
Personally, I prefer the game of 256 colors with the powerful stereo sound, but that's just personal preference.
You can enjoy MP3 Stereo music and improve foreign language skills.
Apparently it's not very effective for learning English.
Not a flame...just trying to start the day off w/a little humor
A standard unix startup includes device initialization, filesystem integrity checks, etc. and then login. In other words, it's designed to set up everything, then allow the user to work. In a handheld, I want to be able to work NOW.
Yes, but you dont "boot" your palmtop when you want to use it -- it's more like just turning on the screen. My Palm V is ready for action almost instantly, but if you reset (paperclip, boot) it, it's much slower -- ~5 seconds. Same device initialization, etc that Linux would have to do.
So, the trick is to figure out how to get low power drain when your Linux palmtop is on standby.
I know the parent post is a troll. SFW? Have a nice day.
--
Industrial space for lease in Flatlandia.
I think that means 225 grammes. Don't you?
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
As a power user, I think it would be cool to be able to switch to another tty on my palm and start some hacking, and I'm sure most slashdotters would too... but the majority of people who by pdas are businessmen who need the simplicity of the organizer. I hope that this device can successfully take the linux kernel, impliment it fully into the system, yet avoid the pitfalls of the almostthepriceofarealnotebookonlywithlesspower windows CE type devices
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/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
Linux takes up a whole CD because it's a lot more than an operating system. The typical distribution has latex, and tex, and 12 editors and several wordprocessors and countless games and spreadsheets, and pretty much all the applications you need for scientific computing,and a server, and not one but 7 or 8 window managers, and on and on and on... I'll bet that most of that won't be on a PDA. Unlike WINCE and the kernel of QNX, you can take any little bits you want from the open source stuff: one line of code up to the whole thing. Linux can fit on a floppy, almost, if you don't want all the bells and whistles.
As far as standard and easy to use, Linux is non-standard only if windows is THE standard. So is the Mac, by that logic. Yes, there are many different user interfaces possible in Linux, and a typical distribution uses most of them. It doesn't have to be that way; you could create a distribution which uses a consistant interface. I gather that most folks haven't thought it worth while.
Then there's easy to use. I'm a user on a rather nice unix system (AIX, actually) right now, and that's easy. Everything works, no fiddling about with "can't install this because it's dlls conflict with that, and oh no, it corrupted my registry, and can't set preferences because you'll screw it up for the rest..." I find being a user on this system far less painful than being a user on a windows network. Part of the problem with the windows network that I could have access to is that it's poorly administered. I don't work in the field, but I gather that it's harder to find competent help who will work with windows. Part of that may be that windows is more difficult to administer well.
Back to the topic at hand, Linux on a PDA can be exactly what you decide to make it. It can have its config files in eeROM (probably not a good solution), and the user can point and click with abandon, or with his stylus. One of the characteristics of unix is that once set up, the user can't screw it up, and it just runs and runs and runs. That's why my children us a Linux system at home: they can screw up windows. I think Linux sounds pretty good for PDA's, too.
You mentioned GNOME. That isn't the GUi, of course. I prefer KDE, although I haven't tried GNOME lately. I find KDE to be astonishingly similar to windows. Most of the differences are for the better. It has a strong unix flavor, of course; I can use highlighting and the middle mouse button to cut and paste, and so on. I don't believe that windows is easy to use, and neither is KDE and GNOME. Most folks who use computers find windows devilishly difficult and counter-intuitive. Most folks who use computers have gotten over the steepest part of the hump with windows, so it seems easy, now. That's why I like KDE; I can use all the knowledge I gained from windows. There's also afterstep, based on nextstep. I liked the next desktop, and I may try switching back to afterstep this summer.
In summary, the flexibility of Linux (and the *BSD's) are probably the star attraction. You don't have a manufacturer breathing down your neck, insisting that you not screw up the purity of their style. I hear that Microsoft is bad, that way. You don't get manufacturer support and funding, either, I suppose, but the lack of licensing fees should go a long way to make up for that if your product is successful. And who would plan a product if they didn't think it would succeed?
Nels
See what I've been reading.
Anybody notice the little start button on the bottom, just like WinCE? And why are they using PC screen captures? It looks promising but a little too far off perhaps.
A 240x320 pixel screen is going to hurt if people try and use a large number of Linux applications on this. Even a text only terminal is only going to get 80 columns if the font is 4 pixels wide, which while possible is really uncomfortable on the eyes. Most window managers are going to have to be configured to use a really thin toolkit (titlebar, icons etc) to be vaguely useable. It strikes me that this would be better off with a greyscale screen of at least twice the resolution in each direction (i.e. a minimum of 480x640) or a colour one if costs allow. For example, web browsing won't even fit the small Netscape icons across the screen in 240 pixels.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
"What I cannot create, I do not understand."
I know I'll be flamed for this, but until I can go out and buy one, why is everyone getting so excited? I'm sure that eventually they are going to come out with it, but as far as I'm concerned, it's still vaporware until they can show me a store selling them...
kwsNI
Why, though, would you want this in a handheld device? A standard unix startup includes device initialization, filesystem integrity checks, etc. and then login. In other words, it's designed to set up everything, then allow the user to work. In a handheld, I want to be able to work NOW.
Why would you want a different OS/API on every device?
The long startup times on Linux desktop systems are due to two things: probing for hardware and runniong the Sys V init scripts. In a closed box, you don't need to probe for hardware. You also don't need to design a Linux system to require either filesystem checks or lengthy startup scripts. They could load a pre-initialized Linux kernel into memory (or, better yet, into execute-in-place mappable memory) practically instantly.
Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Anomalous: deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
Canard: a false or unfounded repor
I mean we have cruso chips, just getting hotter(Err, actually..) by the minute. IBM is getting close with their penny-sized 420 mb disk. And ect ect.(alot of hardware manufactors are getting into the mobile sector, and the issues here of) ;o)
It seems like alotta companys are waiting to release PDAs, and only some really big fish do this sorta stuff right now. I think that the PDA marked will be VERY different in two years time.
Im holding on to my money, looking forward to a wedpad type PDA. With a 400Mhz processor, internet dial up(or what ever), and perferably a 420 meg disk.. Then i will be a spending consumer
"Theres alotta savages in this town.."
This kind of has been on the periphery of things since last week's discussion of the new version of CE. One of the arguments against CE is that Windows just doesn't scale down to a handheld device - a device like a Palm (or the late, lamented Newton, for that matter) that has an OS designed from the ground up specifically for handheld devices has big advantages over a downsized PC.
I'm not sure one way or another here. I own a Palm Vx (and I had a Palm III and a Pilot Pro before that), and I used to have a Newton MessagePad 100, and before that a Sharp Wizard (with the touchscreen). I've used CE, and it's okay, but bloated as hell. All in all, I've been using some type of pocket device since about 1991 or so. The Wizard was great for it's time, but there was no easy PC synchronization at the time, and the pen was just for drawing and selecting on-screen buttons - it couldn't do even rudimentary data entry. On the other hand, it had separate batteries for operation and memory backup, and could go 6+ months of pretty regular use before you had to replace the battery. And it was pretty thin, so it worked well with a coat pocket.
Newton was a revelation when it came out. I saw it and immediately had to have one. The speed was OK, the battery life wasn't too bad (fresh batteries every couple of weeks), but it was bigger than the Sharp it replaced. The OS was smart as hell, despite the mediocre recognition (which got better with time) - it's still the only device where it was intuitive to tell it "schedule lunch with Bob tomorrow" and it could figure out what you meant! They were still too big when Apple Steved the whole Newton line, but if Newton had been allowed to keep on going it very well might have left CE stillborn at the high end and larger form factor.
My Palm is terrific because it's small, quick, and streamlined. Data entry is simple, synchronization is simple, and it works well with my iBook, Windows PC, and Linux PC. It's not as smart as my Newton was (natively), and I can't use real handwriting (Grafitti was originally a Newton software package before the Pilot existed), but it's small enough for the shirt pocket (the Holy Grail), and the battery life is the best since the Wizard. CE is a blivet in comparison.
CE still uses an old-fashioned filesystem metaphor, stores apps separate from executable space, and crams much of an interface designed at least for a 640x480 display into 1/4 the real estate. Despite improvements in the new version, how can that satisfy the needs of the computing/PDA mainstream? I'm afraid that Yopy will be the same. It's nice-looking hardware, but I don't see how Linux works any better than PalmOS or even CE as a PDA operating system. I'd much rather see Linux running on a system in the class of the CE "Jupiter" mininotebooks or even the handhelds rather than the palmtop-class hardware - I think the effort needed to put a usable distro onto a PDA isn't going to be worth it. I hope I'm wrong.
I just don't think Linux's strength lies in the PDA space - the only benefit I see is (theoretically) easier development because a Unix programmer should be able to easily write code for a Linux-based PDA like the Yopy. But writing Palm code is already pretty simple, and a lot of Win32 expertise can be re-used on CE (which, unfortunately, is a strength of CE). Sadly, I see Yopy getting squished in the market and that can't help the Linux cause at all - hopefully a failure won't hurt it, either.
- -Josh Turiel
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Movie energy is measured in voltages.
Movie time is measured in parsecs.
The amount of energy in a battery is measured in volts-per-parsec.
I like linux. I'm running it at work and at home on my desktop machines.
Why, though, would you want this in a handheld device? A standard unix startup includes device initialization, filesystem integrity checks, etc. and then login. In other words, it's designed to set up everything, then allow the user to work. In a handheld, I want to be able to work NOW. Initialize the IR port when I want to use it. Don't waste my time (and battery life) initializing it before I can work. When I'm done, shut it down as soon as possible.
This just-in-time device management is something that linux doesn't really have. While the device might be good for linux if it make that kind of management possible, I'm not sure that I believe that linux is good for a handheld device right now.
--
Forward, retransmit, or republish anything I say here. Just don't misquote me.
Don't forget that yopy.org is a good site to check as well... they've done a lot in the way of investigation - and tend to link to anything yopy related.
www.yopy.org
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