Slashdot Mirror
Canadian Gov't Keeps Detailed Citizen Database
Byron Sonne wrote with word that Canada's Privacy Commissioner Bruce Phillips, in his annual report to Parliament, today criticized a national database kept by the Human Resources Department, calling it "tantamount to a citizen profile."
From the article: "The "extraordinarily detailed database" holds a dossier on almost every person in Canada with as many as 2,000 pieces of information about each person's education, marital status, ethnic origin, mobility, disabilities, income tax, employment and social assistance history."
Fear not -- Human Resources Minister Jane Stewart says that "[a]ll the information is secure, it's encrypted." Interesting, given that apparently blase attitude toward the propriety of keeping such a database in the first place, that Canada has a privacy commissioner at all -- but from the sound of this a fortunate thing it does.
And of course you're not allowed to see what's in your file, unless it's stored on a computer, and even then it's not always possible.
So when they want your encryption keys, just say "not until you let me look at all of your files about me". (If you get a chance during the beating...)
He specified female when he said "blonde". That is one of the few English adjectives which has gender. (Probably because it's not really English.) "Blond" is the masculine form.
HTH. HAND.
I'm both :) Je m'appelle Dan, et je suis Canadien. My name is Dan, and I am Canadian.
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
What our american friend here doesn't understand is that in Canada right now, the biggest problem is not the French, Blacks, or whatever other minority the americans think are a problem. It's the Natives. There is a huge power struggle right now after we stripped some of their indian benefits (No PST, etc)
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
My mother once told me to never put in writing anything you don't want people knowing about. With the compilation of huge databases, this may be hard to avoid, but EVERYONE need not admit to anything beyond the required minimum. What if the required minimum grows? Well, then we should start clammoring for requirements that POLITICANS disclose personal details about their lives as an exchange for details on ours. I don't think most politicians would go for that. I KNOW Bill Clinton wouldn't.
In this day in age with the coming (or is it here?) of what someone called the "Global Electronic Village," should we really be surprised that huge databases are being compiled? In a real village or small town, everyone knows everyone else and each other's business. Cheap mass transportation has enabled anonymity on a scale never before seen. Cheap information transfer, storage and retrieval seems to be scaling this back a bit.
Do you really believe that this is worse than what corporations are doing on the Internet and in the real world? Don't you think that almost everybody's name is on a list somewhere for sale? I have a Safeway card which I would rather not use but in order to get the really good deals on food, I swipe the card. So Safeway knows exactly who I am and what I like to buy. They know I almost always buy things that are on special. They know what kind of cheese I prefer. Have you ever entered a contest on the Internet? They are so easy to sign up for...and you might win real things! What do you think happens to that data?
So what. My government keeps a file on everybody in the country. At least they aren't using that data to try and sell me something that I don't want and for which I have no use.
2 years ago I bought a second hand Alfa Romeo. A year later, just before the car reached 5 years (which is a time when the car must be checked by law in the Netherlands), I received a little letter from a Ford dealer telling me that I could change my Alfa to a Ford. I called this dealer and asked him how on Earth did he know my name, address, type and age of car I owned. His answer was incomplete but as far as I understood, there is a database of all car owners and their car somewhere in the Netherlands that can be used by dealers to spam you. Now, I never agreed to be in this DB, in fact, I did not know about it.
How many databases like this one are we in? How many of these are legal under EU law? These are questions I want answers to!
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
I'm not saying that Denmark does it good. I'm just saying that most danes like it this way. Germans have to carry ID around when they walk on the street, most danes wouldn't accept a requirement to walk around with an ID.
The difference between the CPR-number and the Social Security Numbers is the level of detail, that you can look up in the databases. Like Canada, we actually store all medicine you buy, you illness records etc. It's extremely valuable for research.
What the law does, is to give politicians control of, what is stored, how long it is stored etc. In fact, our company makes an add-on product for Microsoft Access, that makes it comply with the law, so we know pretty much about it. It seems that the Canadians did not know about their databases. At least we do.
I hope that countries stay different, and that other countries don't copy our system entirely, but I don't think you can stop government use of database systems. And I think openness and regulations are better than ignorance.
First of all who do you think discovered/founded Canada, does Jacques Cartier (French) ring a bell? Oldest cities: Montreal, Quebec.
And if you like the "here first" mentality shouldn't the Indians rule the country?
Get your facts straight before you post, the french we here first (ok, after the Indians). Oh and by the way, most english Canadians are Americans that were to chicken to fight for their independance from england during the 1700's so they moved to Canada... 'nuff said!
(man I know better than to be drawn in a language debate but the temptation was just too strong...)
This is no suprise to me. The Nationalist Socialist movement in Canada has just rammed through strict gun control and confiscation laws. The next thing is special drugs in Moose Head and selective breeding. -- If they can find anybody or anything good enough to breed in Canada.
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Craig Shaver, Productivity Group
Craig Shaver, Productivity Group
Sunnyvale, CA
Request HRDC information
.. oh and you have to pay a minimum of CAD$5 to get access to that information.
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A couple of years back a law was passed on databases containing private information: all such databases must be registered with a central instance, precisely documenting its contents and its intended uses. Furthermore, anyone asking for their entry in a database must be provided with the full details. I've forgotten the name of where this information has to be filed, but that should be reletively easy to find out. And so it was: it's called de regitratiekamer (the registration chamber). They have an "English" option, so not knowing Dutch is not a problem for Merkins and other English speaking furriners.
Stefan.
Privacy is like a souvenir: you'd never known you've lost it until you looked for it.
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
Yeah. I'm filing an Access to Information request for my part of the database. If they keep information on me, I'm legally entitled to see what it is. I'd encourage all Canadians to do this.
My tax information should be between me and RevCan, not between me and RevCan and any HRDC employee who happens to be having an unprofessional day.
Could you please pull your head out of your ass and stop with the Alberta stereotypes. I've lived in 5 provinces, and have met racist rednecks in every one of them, including the apparent centre of the universe, Toronto.
Laugh while you can, monkey boy!
In the US, the FBI has a huge database with pictures from almost 90% of the population.
The Big Brother is coming.
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That's not just cynical, that's bad taste! With 'more information' I didn't mean any of the things you mentioned, I hate those things just as much as you. The problem at the moment is that nobody exactly knows who where living in that neighborhood; people are still missing relatives and friends who *could* still be living in that area. Thanx to the administrative chaos, nobody has any certainty about the total number of casualties. So nobody knows when to stop looking for survivors (or bodies), and I think that that's a bad thing.
How to make a sig
without having an idea
Why? I think that history has shown us many times that the English and French do not mix
Not referring to that little spat we had called the Hundred Years War are you? It was all in the spirit of gentlemanly fun. There were no hard feelings on either side.
The department (Human Resources) relies on staff professionalism to prevent misuse of the database. Doesn't that make you feel better?
One major database or a buch of small databases that are linked together, what is the difference?
The thing that worries me is what is this database linked to....Criminal Records, credit cards, slashdot posts................
Hey could this go on my perminant record?
Yes I can not spell...Wait....for a second there I almost cared.
This is potentially bad, but it would be far worse if some private organization had the same info in consolidated form. Governments tend to be incompetent, and that bodes well for your information not becoming a problem. Now if they are ever courted by big business to the degree the U.S. gov't is...
In the states, you can bet that this database would be accessible from any corporate Tom, Dick and Harry. Heck, the information that the U.S. credit bureaus (private) have on its citizens is staggering, and available to anyone you would make a big-ticket purchase from; do not fool yourself into believing it just goes back the mythical seven years either, as that is pure fiction.
-L
The Privacy Commissioner reccomends "a fixed shelf-life for data, penalties for misuse, strict control on collection and legislative changes to set out the research mandate of the database."
Currently, the data is never erased, and the Human Resources Dep't is not under the same strict provisions about the usage and collection of this data as Statistics Canada. (the other guys who collect a lot of data).
I agree that it's not weird information to collect, it's just that in this particular case, there doesn't seem to be much that protects the usage of the database other than "staff professionalism"... oh goody.
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I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Dude - If you didn't have a CSIS file before, you do now. Congrats. ;)
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I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.
If you lie in a deposition one of any number of things will happen to you, the most excessive being a fine or jail term. If you are misleading and evasive in a deposition, you will most likely get the judge's "stern look number 25". I have heard nothing that indicates that Clinton's testimony met the legal criterion of perjury, and impeachments are only for legal crimes (high crimes, I might add, which perjury may or may not be). Its not a vote of no confindence because the president did a naughty thing then didn't own up to the full details when asked a more limited question.
If you were asked in a deposition if you had dinner with someone and said "no" instead of "no, but I did have a drink at the cocktail bar and one pretzel" you would be committing the same level of "perjury" clinton was accused of. All IMHO, of course.
PS, last time I checked, making motions of lawyer-client or executive privilege through propper channels didn't count as "styming" an investigation. It's standing up for your own constitutional rights. Presidents have those too, ya know.
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
I already sent in an email in French complaining about this, since I'm a dual citizen living in the US, and this was the first I heard of it.
Will in Seattle
Holland, as well as Belgium and France, have completely de-centralised collecting and storing data on their citizens. This is because it was centralised to some fashion when the nazis took over and used those lists to weed out undesirables. The nazis seized each community's records, and then slowly but surely weeded out Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Philosophers, left leaning ex-politicians, Clergy, students who dropped out of school (possibly to join resistance), and the list goes on. After the war, it was made as difficult as possible for anyone in charge of the country to efficiently target any single group. It might start in one area, but that would alert others who could then take a counter-action to save lives.
/. and usenet.
:-)
Large random acts of distruction happen very rarely, and if it takes a little extra time to comb through some local tax and phone records to compile a list of people in a neighborhood, then we'll accept that extra bit of inefficiency. It is much better for a government to be inefficient than to give up all your privacy, and perhaps your life, because someone was able to dredge through a nationwide database and decide you are now undesirable.
I think the missing count is way down today, as they manually strike names off of various lists compiled in haste. But the body count is rising slowly as search efforts continue. Almost everyone in my town knows someone or of someone affected by the blast, it's sad, really.
There are several quotes floating around by various famous people who fought for freedom. Some americans, french, indians, south africans, and others who watched the horribly criminal actions of rogue governments who were a little too efficient in their enforcement of unfair laws. Look around, you'll see them as poster's sigs on
the AC
The upside of having no central tax database is that many people move to a new district every year, because it takes about a year for the tax records to follow them. After 5 or 10 years, the tax authorities will finally catch up, and present a bill for the previous 3 years. YMMV & IANATL
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
Wouldn't want to tell us what? His name and address? His income and from what sources? His weight, age, medical history, last three addresses, previous marriages, how many guns he's licensed to own, what church he attends, where he goes each time he leaves the country and his entire criminal record? What are you really talking about here?
If you're envisioning a time when the government will require us to tell them the names, places and possitions for all our sexual encounters, yes, politicians like any other person wouldn't go for it. For the information the canadian government is keeping, requiring public disclosure for clinton or anyone else of that level is redundant.
Or maybe you think that for you to admit how many guns you own, clinton should give detailed accounts of his sex life. Sounds a little too petty for that to be it.
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
Im Canadian, and let me say, this blows. Its time for us to start bitchin :)
However, I'll bet that this database is small compared to some of the others out there. At least its encrypted, but I wonder if it's connected to the net.
I wish that they'd ask us before they did something like this - but even if they did, I'm sure that most people would say "huh? I dont care." and leave it be.
You should see a significant decrease in bulk addressed mail, telephone solicitations and suchlike when you follow the Direct Marketing Association's instructions for opting out:
c e.html
:-)
Americans:
http://www.the-dma.org/consumers/consumerassistan
Canadians:
Do Not Mail/Do Not Call Service
Canadian Marketing Association
PO Box 706
Don Mills, ON
M3C 2T6
Fax: 416-391-1237
Also, Canucks can call their local PO and have them stop unaddressed bulk mail deliveries.
Finally, there is a telemarketers do-not-call service for us Canucks. It's a 1-800 number, but I long-ago lost it. I suggest you rip Sprint Canada a new asshole the next time they call you, to the point where they *want* to give you the opt-out number.
*THIS DOES WORK* I receive virtually no bulk mail (some bulk mailers don't belong to the association) and so few telemarketing calls as to be inconsequential.
I've just tried the American DMA's email opt-out thang. Godz willing, I'll see a decrease in spam. Oh, how I hope!
Feel free to make a website telling everyone about this!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I feel sorry for those poor Canadians when some junk mailer gets hold of the list. Ed McMahon is commin' yer way.
cat database | grep "18 years old, blonde, big boobs, loves Linux" > /dev/me
42 !
I think you underestimate how the government would react to a larger load. As a government they don't have the need to be accountable so they'd hire more people to do the work and then proclaim the database a success because so many people were using it.
If you question me, examine the national firearms registration program.
If they have a detailed record of my existence, I think I ought to have the right to see it. If I don't have that right, then I'll add this to the growing list of reasons to leave Canada. Other reasons include: o taxes are *crazy* here o I can't make as much money here o gov't is generally much more socialist, doesn't respect individual rights enough o people here continually look to gov't for answers -- to much "entitlement mentality". There are good things about being Canadian too, but right now I'm in a pissy mood :-) -VonKruel
You really think that the U.S. Government doesn't have detailed databases about every citizen? Who are you joking. They probably know what you had for lunch yesterday.
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This is a very real problem: I had a job while I attended university (See HRDC for number and details of failed classes) that involved processing companies' mailing lists for the purposes of direct marketing (read junk mail and telemarketing). No Flames please! I've since moved on to more respectable work.
We would take a mailing list (name, address, city, province), check that against Canada Post's postal code database (software readily available) to correct and add postal codes. This postal code would then be used to geolocate that individual (within a range of less than a block in an urban setting. Try it at www.mablast.com.) Using the StatsCan census data (also mapped to geographic regions) and some geographic information software we would produce demographic profiles of databases.
A simple postal code can produce a lot of probabilities about a person. (For example, if you live in a neighborhood where the average income is about $30,000, then you aren't very likely to be making $60,000. You aren't very likely to be targetted for new car ads either).
The above is an example of what can be done with publicly available information, and was limited by the keys that could be used to match. Govt DBs contain Social Insurance Numbers (there is a complaint in the comissioner's report about overuse of SINs) and can match at will.
Please think before opening your yap. Us redneck Albertans don't want privatized health care any more than you self-centred eastern Canadians, however with Red-Nosed-Ralph in charge we don't have much choice in the matter.
You're saying that amongst all the relatives and friends of an individual, not one of them knows his/her current address?
Having spend 12 months on a co-op job at Humans Resources Development Canada's Ontario Regional Headquarters in the Systems Admin area, I have to agree that their concenpt of secure is a joke -->
1. They believe they are less prone to attacks because they use 'Banyan VINES' and no-one uses Banyan VINES.
2. Whereas most companies uses Windows NT rather then Windows 9x or 3.x since its more secure[LINUX Trolls, I know LINUX is more secure but you have to admit that NT Security is better hten Windows 9x or 3.x]. HRDC seems bent on using all three operating systems.
3. Dial-Up. These people allow workers dialup from HOME using ReachOut [think along lines of Symantec pcAnywhere].
4. Theft. When I was working there, out of an staff of 400 there was 2 stolen lap tops and someone manage to break in and steal 4 machines. I hate to know what are on those harddrives.
5. AUTO-LOGIN! Half the people in the building has it setup [through TweakUI] so that their computer automatically logon to the network for them when they bootup.
6. Job Termainals --> Any Canadian knows about them, they're the little things at malls and stuff that helps you find a job. Well, those things are connected to the entire HRDC network. If someone compromise one of these, then they're screwed.
7. Incomptant Admins --> When I did my co-op there, out of the 10 admins there only 2 had a college degree and out of the two, one was an Psychology Degree. Most of the admins are qualified because they took some 'Computer Repair' or 'Acess Design' course at a community college or somewhere.
8. Idiot Workers --> Have you heard of the recent CSIS problems? [CSIS = NSA]. A BRIEFCASE of confidental docuemnts was stolen from a car of a agent while he was at a ball game.
Expecting the Canadian Government to keep a secure private database is like asking a car to fly, its not going to happen.
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
I used to get pissed of @ comments like this until I realized that in the states people who live in the Suburbs tend to have cleaner air, less crime, live longer, are better educated, have better health care, etc. So I can understand why an American would feel that way.
But we ain't Yanks, and as God is good we never will be.
Yes I can not spell...Wait....for a second there I almost cared.
appearantly that's the case. It is a poor neighborhood, with cheap houses, most of them rented. The rate of change in that area can be quite large, so it's harder to keep track of single individuals. There's also lots of students renting rooms there (also subject to rapid changes), you've got illegals living there, people who are seeking asylum etc..
How to make a sig
without having an idea
Amen to that
Sometimes people who live on Internet time with its hyper-rapid obsolescence need a reminder: some things are actually MATURE and (relatively) stable!
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This post made from 100% post-consumer recycled magnetic
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Credit agencies are also obliged to give you access to your credit history. Your medical records, legal history, and most other "important information" are all to be made known to you if you request it.
While this is true it is also misleading to most people. The credit agencies have to give you access to the raw information they collect. However they are under no obligation to tell you your "credit rating" or any other interpretation they make of your data. In fact it is these interpreted facts that are the most important to know. If an individual was talking "behind your back" saying, "that guy is a dead-beat" you'd want to know about it.
Interesting (to me anyway) but slightly off-topic is that when the Cdn government adopted Social Insurance Numbers (SINs) to track pension contributions, it was only after the government of the day had assured Parliament and the country that SINs would never be used as an identity number for citizens in general. This assurance, of course was worth nothing. The only thing that keeps every citizen's information from being completely cross-indexed is the relative enormity of such a task (considering the wild assortment of different data sources involved). Human Resources Development Canada has bee on a spending spree for a couple of years, so it makes sense that they would be the first to implement such a thing.
On the private-sector side, it is actually not legal for anyone to demand your social insurance number for any purpose except making payroll tax deductions. That is, you are not obligated to provide an SIN on an employment application, credit application, university entrance application, rental contract, etc. However, this is now an accepted practice, and financial institutions generally reject credit or new account applications from anyone who refuses to provide an SIN.
Your rights under law, in other words, are not your rights in practice.
My understanding is that this sort of law is standard in most of Europe. I recall that some American politician recently try to pressure Germany into dropping its privacy protection legislation (it was reported here at /. too). I'm hoping that the Candian Bill C6 takes Canada in the same direction as Europe and not down the slippery slope the USA fell down.
Big Brother (the government watching our every move) is certainly a dangerous thing. Big Stranger (corporations watching our every move) is sinister and shouldn't be tolerated.
but we'd really really *really* like to be cheech to your chong guys...
why can't we? get with it! enough with the stupid war on drugs already!
[We don't come from a planet. We come from a grid sector.]
Hey fellow Canucks, I'm sending them an email requesting that they give me what they have on file about myself. If anyone is interested in doing the same or if you have already done it, please contact me... Thanks!
That's as may be, but it seems unlikely to me that a government database would help in these cases.
It's not as if illegal immigrants are going to helpfully inform the government every time they move...
Afterall, Canada is just the suburbs of the US isn't it?
</snip>
Wrong. Canada is Ono to your Yoko.
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Copyright © 2002 me
Canada is traditionally a pretty socialist country. Even the most right wing reform member couldn't seriously suggest disbanding universal health care and expect to get re-elected. I don't want to get into this too much, but one of the cost efficiencies of social programs that are universal is that they are available to all people... a huge amount of money is saved on administration costs necessary to keep the "wrong people" out. Hospitals, clinics, etc. just do what they do without having to worry about checking a credit rating
Anyway, so assume this (probably most American readers think it's crap as their political environment tends to be much more right wing as a norm; trust me for the sake of argument.) Now we have all sorts of social programs running, a good number of those for 20-30 years. The governments are cutting back and cutting budgets. Most of these major social programs (homeless shelters, clinics, employments centres, etc) contibute to the public good. Many items are not tangible but they have an overall effect on communities people live in.
How should these departments save money? All in great chorus: put all the information in a database and share it all. It just makes sense that every clinic you go to, or unemployment office should be able to figure out who you are so you can be treated. Just makes sense right? Technology put to good use, right?
More cutbacks later, conservative governments allowing companies into school boards which show TV commercials as part of the opening announcements in schools, hospitals closings, major restructuring of social systems without any democratic input (a la Mike Harris)... where does that leave us? Private industry has a firm toe hold in public goods. Departments have dwindling budgets and they need money to continue services....
It just makes sense that they are going to want to centralize information. It's more efficient and it's a natural reaction to market forces.
Maybe we should alter our discussion somewhat and consider that it's not Big Brother that's a dnager to our privacy... maybe it's our pocketbooks. Does this mean we have to pay for privacy? Is this good or bad?
Just wanted to put this discussion in a different light...
> Scary. I'd say, "well, thank god the US doesn't have something like that" but...
What's scary is thinking about getting lynched by the neighbors when one of those u'd states accidentally includes your name in their for-public-consumption pedo databases.
Convenient way to get rid of troublemakers, though. And a lot cheaper than running a Gulag.
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Yeah I trust her. I think this is the same person that basically pissed away $1 Billion in grants that she couldn't really account for, most of which went to her own riding (someone please correct me or provide the details if i'm wrong).
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
You prove yourself a hypocrite with this statement. You are doing the exact same thing towards western Canadians that you are accusing us of doing towards visual minorities.
There are far more hate groups such as the Heritage Front in Ontario and Eastern Canada than there are from Manitoba east.
As for us Alberta hicks, a good 90% of the population lives in two large cities, having nothing to do with the farmers and ranchers that produce most of the food that you eat, but thank you for the stereotypical comments.
The biggest problem in Canada is that we have only rep by pop in such a diverse country. Our prime minister is the only person in the government with real power and the largest region can easily select the PM who is most friendly towards them. The Alliance or whatever their name du jour is, will actually represent Western Canada. I will vote for them and I am far from a racist.
The funny thing was, Statistics Canada cancelled a schedule released of a panel dataset because of security reason. One of my classmates has been waiting for a year for the security check passed through such that he can use that dataset to complete his empirical studies. I just don't understand how many people in the world can trace the information of a particular person if the dataset is without names, addresss, telephone numbers or any direct identification information.
Not my problem though, coz' they would not let me pass the security check anyway as I am not a Canadian at the moment.
A sig is redundant.
Read that "Alberta-redneck-racists" as a direct reference to Ralph Klein, Preston Manning et al and not the the populace of Western Canada in General.
Gee wiz...
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
While I agree with you that the mess started with Pettigrew, I won't believe for a moment that she was oblivious about what was going on. I conviced she knew, and parcipated in the attempted cover-up. BOTH should be held accountable along with HRDC's senior bureaucrats. At any rate, regardless of which one of our versions of the story is right, she's certainly shown that she's incapable of running the department and has no idea what the people under her are doing. Is this the the person you want all your personal information entrusted to? What about her successor? We don't even know who that is. That scares me too.
VENI! VIDI! VICI!
> I don't want any Alberta racist rednecks running my country and destroying
> everything it stands for just to become more like the US.
Actually, Tom is an Ontarian... Really good friends with Mike Harris (oh, yeah, that's a good thing... *sigh* )
There is some irony here. This database is maintained by Human Resources and used for decision making. Over at Stats Canada, they want to destroy the 1911 census rather than release it as they have previous censuses, including 1901. Their argument is that releasing the original census data - it is literally copies of the forms that where filled out on people's doorsteps - would violate the privacy of the people listed. This is pissing off people who want to do geneological research as censuses are incredibly useful when researching family history. It lets you find out where people were at a given point in time so you can more effectively search other public records - which were not, until now, centralized. With out the census data, we deprive people of the ability to find out where they came from - unless we give them access to this centralized database. Secure access, of course. On the web. Uh huh. Bureaucrats just don't get it.
I know, I know...I was just hoping an somebody else would win. Tom Long is the scariest of the lot...And I can't stand Mike Harris either. He ranks up there with Ralph Klein.
The best thing Mike Harris ever did was make Bob Rae look good.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Its not called redundant...the correct word is oxymoron...!!!
so where is this data coming from?
the only agencies i can think of capable of filling 200o fields on your average joe are credit rating agencies, e.g. Equifax, who hold just everyone by the balls. I read here a while back someone who had quit the UK for work in US,and couldnt get that company to give over even basic details of his history enough to open a bank account. Left him on friends' couches for 4 months - and that even afetr he was a lead programmer for them in the UK!I worry more often about CORPS being conduits for private informationthan governments - the profit motive giving off a stench of bent morals and aggressive instincts with much greater frequencybut what about data typing - can you think of 2000 items about yourself that are generoic enough to apply to every citizen? Maybe this means Medical histories, all previous addresses, whoever you ever banked with or worked for . . . the list goes on.
Here in the UK i would be most concerned about the incresing access of executive bodies - civil service and law enforcement access to statutorily collected information. The problem is it gives an INCENTIVE for some people to search for personal histories matching criminal types or social agitatorsrecently in London there was a Reclaim the Streets protest which quickly became a riot, apparently agitated by a small contingent. But regardless of your interest in these things, even curiosity, "involvement" would place you under the auspices of the Prevention of Terrorism Act - Read imprisonment without charge (like Mitnick), wire tap without warrant (tho the UK already has rights to tap ANY DATA CALL - so fsuk VOIP thanks) and to continue to do so for a LONG timemoreover i recently heard a lot about Telcos handing over unrelated calling patterns and destinations for the criminal inestigation of parties who could not be proven to be even related to crime - again without warrant or orderthe problems here were NOT with the fact that a database could exist, but embedded in the social management of legislative / executive body responsibilities - i.e. the arbitray and undefined passing of authority to organisations without direct accountability and without publicly visible organisational structures If Tacitus said that the proliferation of laws indicated a corrupt state, we must all, everywhere, look hard at the excuses technology has given our "elected representatives" (in quotes because who we elect too often passes off to appointees, monopolistic cronies, whoever) to pass ever more complicated bills supposedly to DEAL with the complex innovations.But luckily it's still against the law to combine those databases, though of course, in the end that will happen. And it will be used for maintaining laws and finding all sorts of offences. "Hmm, no income reported over the last couple of years, but two expensive cars and a couple of houses... Lets check into that."
Of course, I don't object to that, but there's other privacy matters that are scarier. Read 1984, for examples.
Stefan.
Only in our dreams are we free. The rest of the time we need wages.
--Terry Pratchett in "Wyrd Sisters"
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
I am not a haxor. I am not an Islamic fundamentalist terrorist. I use the internet to check on hockey scores, not for DDOS attacks. I believe in nationalized health service. My domain is .ca My government keeps a securely encrypted dossier on me. My name is Joe, and I am a Canadian! Reality is, in fact, virtual.
The data is not the *least* bit normalized!
:)
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Hello my name is eh? and I'm an english Canadian who likes poutine... it started many years ago when I lived in Quebec, I ordered by mistake, thinking I was getting a putain (look it up http://www.notam.uio.no/~hcholm/altlang/ht/French. html),... now I can't get enough... this is my story, it's a true story, jusk ask Human Resources it's all there in my file... I just hope that someone somewhere hears this tale and learns from it... sniff, sniff, I need some time here, I'm sorry
Very true. However....
Things like the fireworks factory are a very rare occurance. So rare in fact that I am willing to bet my salary for the next two years that you and 200 of your closest friends will not get blown up by an exploding fireworks warehouse.
Rare occurances, such as you describe, might seem like a good time to have such a database. But is having such a database the rest of the time a good idea? It might make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but not me.
Recently, there was a show on T.V. that explained the problems one gentleman had because of a typo in a computer form entered on his social security number a murder conviction. This public database with the erroneous information had gotten sold to a data warehousing company and then sold to MANY sources. The gentleman in question lost his job, couldn't get another job and eventually, it destroyed his marriage. He hired a private investigator who finally tracked the problem. The Sherrif's department apologised for the problem and corrected the data in their computer databases, but that didn't correct the data in everyone elses databases. The free selling of this kind of information is happening all the time in the states, and the scary part (if that wasn't scary enough) that if there is a problem found, there is no way to correct the information. The man above is permanently hosed, guilty of something he never did by way of permanent tainting of the multiple copies of the erroneous information. Welcome to the age of high tech/no responsibility.
A comment overheard in a corn field `If you have better ideas, lets hear them. I am all ears.'
not only is the universe stranger than you imagine,
it's stranger than you are capable of imagining
...wow.. a government has a database. Go figure. I mean, its not like the they need to have infomration to provide services to people or anything like that.
You privacy people get bent out of shape about anything these days.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
Of course, this is just the result of corporations' semi-annual "let's get together and decide what to call ourselves" meetings. The term just hasn't changed in a while.
Stefan.
The truth shall make you fret. (Ankh-Morpork tImes motto)
I'm Canadian and I don't like the idea of the Government keeping that much detail on me. A few years ago they started making the mandatory census surveys very detailed (mandatory = jail term if you don't send them in or caught falsifying them). I don't like it one bit.
But...
I'm much less concerned about the Government having this information than Corporations having this information.
In Canada we have the FOIP [Freedom of Information and Privacy Act]. That is why we have a Privacy Commisioner. Well he may or may not be effective in getting the Goverment to responsibly deal with the security of its citizen database the FOIP isn't all bad legislation.
Recently in Canada we also got a law called Bill C6 which forces Companies to disclose what information they are collecting, why the are collecting, it and who they share it with. In the USA there is nothing like this. Companies are "encouraged" to publish privacy policies on-line but in other realms of commerce their is nothing.
I'm really glad the Commisioner has put this out in the open. I really hope Bill C6 has some teeth!
.for the article in french langage, just click here
--
BeDevId 15453 - Download BeOS R5 Lite free!
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I guess it's the typical Canadian reaction, but I don't care. The Privacy Commissioner said last night on CBC radio that the main problem is that people don't know it's there. Lots of people (apparently) think that if they give some info to, say, the Ministry of Transportation, then Revenue Canada won't know about it.
Well, duh. I think it's pretty logical to assume that anything you tell the Government, It then knows forever. Hey, just like any other person/company/whatever. If I told the IT department at a company something, should I be surprised if HR finds out about it? Of course not.
All in all, I don't find this database too surprising or worrisome.
--
Patrick Doyle
Patrick Doyle
I mod down every jackass who puts his moderation policy in his sig. Oh, wait a sec....
I personally have a nice FBI file on me, but that is because I have had a secret security clearance. For that there was a justified "need to know". For the average citizen to have any documentation on file anyplace in a manner like this is an open invatation to abuse. Well, lets just round up all the ........ (among your choices are blacks, gays, gun owners, catholics, gypsies, japanese, etc. etc.). Before you say it can't happen, please remember that even stateside native american people of japanese descent were interred during WW2, and all the above have been rounded up by a government within the last 50 or so years someplace. Maybe the NRA isn't so paranoid after all?
Where do you Canadians get the term "redneck" from, I didn't know it was possible to get sunburn that close to the arctic circle. Or are you talking about windburn or frostbite?
I just remembered this old Metallica song. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
From a French settlement that pre-dated any anglos that happened to come by. (But it was conqureed and the french were driven out.)
Not that it matters, as black slaves have since conquered the English and driven all whites out.
I just wanted to point out your error of thinking the English beat the French to Northern North America.
"The hardest thing to understand is the income tax." - Albert Einstein
As usual, the United States of America is lagging
/. today about the world conference
behind its partners in democracy when it comes
to the reform of social engineering practices.
It must have taken years to amass this extremely
detailed information on virtually every Canadian
citizen.
Only this year have we here in the states begun
(formally and openly, that is) to require
under threat of imprisonment and monetary
penalty that all citizens volunteer (sic)
detailed information on every member of their
household.
If you don't think they were serious, then
you did not spend the last two months travelling
only to come home and have your office secretary
relay the message that "He better contact us
immediately, you know he could go to jail for
this."
The 2000 census was a blatant act of facism
which I am sure won't be the last. See the
story on
in France. These people are out of their
*u:?ing minds. We are already suffering the
attacks of corporatist megaconglomerates, and a
federal gov't who until now at least gave the
impression that they were bumbling idiots.
Sounds to me like maybe they are getting their
act together - and I do not mean that in a
positive fashion.
maker
itbwtcl
The guy who had the job before her did. She was just moved in a while ago to take the fall. Sorta like Shiela Copps and the GST thing. She'll get a bad rep and then move to a less important ministry. Such is the life of a Liberal cabinet minister.
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
Ya, but i think it only asked for your name. No SSN or anything. Just name, sex and race if i recall. Then i got the short form. ITs more of a way of counting how many people we have, nothing more. Of course maybe the long forms got sent to the people the gov't doesn't like. :)
Hmm....that seems like a pretty bad reason for such a database. After all, i'm sure family members that had someone living in the blast area would come and start asking around for thier loved ones. Databases like this just have too much potential for abuse, and should be outlawed.
Ever been to Holland? It is a very small country, very crowded and rather heavily industrialized. So there are *lots* of towns and neighborhoods which are situated too close to possibly dangerous factories to be comfortable. Ever seen Rotterdam? The largest port in the world, with an enormous amount of chemical industry - talk about potential explosions!
How to make a sig
without having an idea
Alliance: get rid of gun control (make Toronto more like Detriot), destroy (privatized/ two-tier) our healthcare system, outlaw abortion (ask Tom Long), get rid of any other right or program which gets in the way of their backers (see Conrad Black) from making obscene amounts of money.
I don't want any Alberta racist rednecks running my country and destroying everything it stands for just to become more like the US.
I'd even go so far as to vote for Brian Mulroney again rather than give those idiots a chance. Hell I'd even vote for the Bloc before I'd vote for any of them.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
From what I understood (I'm still learning Dutch, so I could have missed something), the factory was there _before_ the houses.
This happens in many places - an industrial area or airport attracts housing that is then allowed to be built closer and closer. Usually lower cost housing too.
$%^& Internet Explorer ate my cookie, that was me. I hate school computers. I almost convinced the librarian to switch to Linux, but the login prompt freaked her out.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
Now lets not confuse things... this is NOT data collected by Stats Can... their mandate to collect information is ruled by and guided by strict regulations on how they can use and release the data they collect... the problem with this HR database is that HR has no restrictions on it, as it was never part of their mandate to gather and collect such information... all this was in the article. Obviously, this points at a larger problem in government (notice I do not single out Canadian govt. here), since, if HR could gather up all this information, presumably by asking for, and recieving databases held by other ministries/departments, other govt agents (again note no Cdn. specification) could/has probably compiled a like database... now I think the commission may have fallen short on its recommended course of action to take (now I'm relying on the story as to what the commission recommended as I have not read the report) in that they are looking to place restrictions on the use shelf life etc of "the database" not data collected by govt in general...
Denmark also has a central database with lots and lots of data for each person living in Denmark. The primary key in the person-table is a number consisting of our birthdate and four extra digits. The last digit is uneven for male and even for female persons. Because of this database, our population is popular for international studies on populations, like medical studies. The system is named CPR and the number we carry is named CPR-number. A newly born child has to get a name within 6 months after birth. But it must get a CPR-number within a couple of days. The unique number is more important than the name... In fact, most danes like it this way. The CPR number is used in Banks, insurance companies, even when renting video cassettes or DVDs. This way, persons can be tracked independantly of their name. In order to regulate this stuff, we have strict database regulations, that do not allow anyone to store CPR-number related information electronically if it is not secured correctly. You cannot just set up a Microsoft Access database and start entering information, this would be illegal. What Canada does has been done before, it's no news.
Hi I am from Nova Scotia Canada and I would just like to say that Canada has the appearance of being slack on the spy and military end, but we are just as bad as big brother. I can't say I am surprised to hear of this database, but what the hell did we think they were doing with the census info we gave them. Burn it?? Of course not. Sure we may feel like our privacy has been disturbed but don't forget wee sent all of the information to them voluntarily.
But just remeber, the government doesn't really know any more then your nosey neighbor, or the gossiping wench at timmy's.
Right on Canada!!!
And a lot of folks up north wonder why we don't want the government to register our guns
Sounds like a blatant copy of 'Brazil'... without all the Terry Gilliam good stuff
Aren't these all legitimate things where you'd expect a government to have databases about? Whether it should be in a single centralized database is another matter, of course.
--
bgphints - internet routing news, hints and ti
Regards, Ralph.
the only unix viruses are also known as "newbies" and they are easily fixable.
This DOES worry me!
Wow.
Scary.
I'd say, "well, thank god the US doesn't have something like that" but I'd choke on my own naivetee.
Is the fact that it's encrypted suppossed to make people feel better?
Being a canuck and noticing a similar headline in our local news rag, I am not surprised by this. Stats Canada is very thorough in its data collection and analysis. And since goverment is just another form of business, who also keeps databases on their clientel, it doesnt shock me. Canada has always had socialist tendancies in its politics and in order to maintain / run such a system, it requires that it gathers information on all its people. I would not be surprised if the US goverment does do the same. Isnt there a census going on down south ? There will always be database on people out there, no matter what laws are in place and who is enforcing them. If you wish to maintain some form of privacy, you have to control what type of data goes in there. It is much harder to trace someone's spending habits if they only use cash. You can withhold certain information from a census. You can always lie too, morals and beliefs permitting. Remember, it is about you and you have a say. Use it wisely.
Let's see.
Age group, profession, education.
matched with:
warranty cards, in store forms, etc, you send in to company {x,y, and z}. You remembered not to include too much info on these, but you included different info on each card, which is then matched up.
Then they can match it up with this database, either directly or statistically.
So now they have your address, your profession, your education, prior buying habits, interests, credit rating and more.
Yeah, let's blame Canada.
kwsNI
This weekend in a town in Holland a fireworks factory exploded, resulting in 500 destroyed houses, more than 500 people injured, and an unknown amount of people killed. Up to now they found 17 bodies and lots of bodyparts, but there are still more than 200 persons missing. So they still have absolutely no idea of how many people actually died in the explosion; are all those 200 persons on the missing-list buried under the rubble?
This uncertainty is largely caused by the fact that there isn't a central administration database in Holland, so therefore it is very hard to find out where people are living at the moment. So in times of a disaster like this, more information on the whereabouts of people wouldn't be so bad.
How to make a sig
without having an idea
The only mistake that Stewert made was going public with it. She got massacred by the media. Just like the Liberals intended.
Why would she have known what was going on? She had nothing to do with the Ministry until she was appointed as Minister. She did not participate in the cover-up. Else we'd have never heard of the billion dollar boondoggle.
------
If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
But, what about the Slashdot database on world citizen? Which topics they are reading? What silly nicknames they are choosing? Which ads the like enough to visit home sites? Etc...
Unfortunately it's ROT26.
Carousel is a lie!
For example, take State Farm Insurance. I applied for a position some time ago and was instructed to prepare a "scannable" resume. Why? Well, at State Farm, your resume isn't even read by humans - its scanned into their machines and kept on file. When they want to hire people, presumably, they just do a query for certain keywords; if your resume doesn't have the right keywords, your resume won't even be read by a human being.
This is a quiet way of covering up covert discrimination. Because people "trust" computers, one can justify hiring/not hiring based on "computer generated" results, the implication being that a computer is completely objective. Anyone who has ever worked with databases knows that a carefully constructed query can get the user whatever result they desire, yet people still trust the analysis done be a computer without question
This impression of infallible accuracy makes computers all the more dangerous, especially when they are wrong. Imagine if the criminal record of someone else was "accidentally" appended to your file. Imagine trying to straighten the situation out and hearing the clerk say The computer is always right. How can you appeal computer data? Where is the physical paper trail?
I like computers, but must admit that, just like everything else in society, there are inappropriate uses for them. The danger of Canada's database outweighs any perceived benefits that it might have brought; it has reduced human beings to mere numbers and stripped Canadiens of their individual dignity.
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
If you know anything about Jane Stewart then you know that her quote should make all Canadians very afraid. This is the woman who lost track of a billion dollars. That may not seem as much to Americans with the sheer size of their federal budget, but that sure isn't chump change north of the border.
This woman has absolutely no clue. Along with the government she belongs to. It scares me enough that this databse exists. The fact that its Jane Stewart's department terrifies me.
VENI! VIDI! VICI!
An English country? I won't pretend to be versed in Canadian history, but you might get some conflicting views there.
and yet refuse to stop speaking their language as if they had some God-given right to be different.
You clearly have never been to California. Or Texas. Or Florida. Or to a university campus.
It's arrogant and ignorant to expect someone to conform to your standards.
This is such a great opportunity to "enhance" the software that manages this database!
What about traffic tickets? Up here in Canada we have our picture digitized and printed onto our driver's licenses. Pretty secure stuff, eh? Now let's take this little tidbit of information and integrate it into this database. With the right bits of image recognition software we could make our photo-radar machines give out speeding tickets even better!
Think about it, instead of just receiving a ticket in the mail when some photo-radar machine catches you in the act, now because the machine can recognize who you are, you can also have demerit's taken off your license too! Gee, those little machines set up like this would almost be as good as people standing all over the place. Except of course that they don't have any morals and always do as their told.
Think about it, we could expand this system to include everything like their doing in Britain! You know, camera's set up all over the place looking for suspicious activity. Our crime rates would plummit! Maybe if my neighborhood was one of the "good" one's we could switch off the monitors owing to low crime rates.
Think about it, we could come up with a set of unifying law's to promote good citizenship! It was all so clear sixty-one years ago. We could pipeline the application of justice so citizens would not need to appear in a court to waste the time of the judiciary. With all the evidence so clearly laid out, it would be obvious how serious their infractions were. We could then efficiently schedule the pickup of criminals even going around the clock. Some would come in the day, but then again, some would come at night.
You know, I've thought about it and I don't think we're responsible enough as a people to do this to ourselves yet.
Face it, both the government and the corps likes to keep track of us. They will do it wether we like it or not. If the corps buys their data from the central database, they:
a) Has to follow some rules
b) At least gets correct data about me, not something someone else entered in my name.
c) are less inclined to build their own, more detailed database (esp if that is surrounded with decent laws)
I think we should concentrate on the *use* of personal data rather than the mere existence thereof. (since it will never go away)
All opinions are my own - until criticized
Hopefully they didn't encrypt that info using a World War II Enigma machine, like how the Canadian Department of National Defense went to the war museum to pull out some artillery pieces for the Gulf War.
In Canada, around 1990, it was revealed by the oversight committee that the CSIS (the Canadian equivalent of the CIA) has dossiers on 10% of the population. This doesn't include the files of course of the CSE (the equivalent of the NSA) or RCMP domestic intelligence, or military intelligence. The Canadian Government likes to watch.
--
Encrypted does not mean secure. Now that everyone knows it's out there, it will only be a matter of time till some 1337 haxor goes and cracs it, just for bragging rights if nothing else. Housing this information in just one place seems like a dumb move to me. I think it would be much more secure if they warehoused it in a more diverse manner.
__
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
The fact is that probably every country in the world keeps some kind of database about the people who live in it, either through police files, electoral rolls or census information. Of course, most countries wouldn't admit it if they can get away with it, but I seriously doubt there are any that don't have them.
I remember reading somewhere that over 15 million people here in the UK have police files on them. These include anyone who has ever been picked up by the police, anyone who is a member of a "subversive" organisation, privacy and free speech advocates and generally anyone who isn't a complete Middle England, Daily Mail reading, 2.4 children kind of person.
I bet the percentage of /. readers with files on them is definitely greater than the 35% average :)
Because... why? so the newspapers can accurately print how many? so they can light the right number of candles at some cheesey public grieving ceremoney? so they can use public funds to fly in the right-sized team of professional grief counselors?
Oh wait, I know: so the right number of freaks can race to the accident scene to pose as priests!
Blame Canada
Find funky gifts
Even assuming that the encryption is secure, there's still the potential for disgruntled authorised users of this system to poke around in your record on the database, or to start selling bits of information to interested third parties.
I think that most governments probably keep "extraoradinarily detailed" databases on their citizens, but I would assume that your educational records, tax records and health records are all kept in separate databases, in separate servers and in separate locations. The sheer scale of this database, and the possible consequences of its abuse are the really worrying factors.
not everyone is as familiar with Canada as you are, monsieur. He means:
American
The danger of having a single database, or multiples which you can easily extract matching information from, is that others can find out things from public records that you don't want known.
An actual Canadian example from some years ago: one company provided both library and pharmacy databases to customers. A person with access to each as a ordinary user looked in the pharmacy database for unmarried females below thirty who had prescriptions for birth contol pills.
The pharmacy database didn't allow him to look up their adresses, as it had controls to keep exactly that search from being made. So he took the full names and searched for them in the library database, which did not have controls on adresses.
The principle being broken here is that the pharmacy customers only granted permission to use their addresses for delivery purpose, not for publication to local lotharios. This was circumvented by the user's matching them in the library database, which didn't have (and probably didn't normally need) any protections on the use of adresses.
Stats Canada, who manage the census, is very aware of this problem, and makes sure that only selected statistical queries can be made, and that they can't be narrowed down enough to identify single households or persons.
HRDC, on the other hand, is not exactly a hotbed of privacy advocates: it's job is providing a disorganized bag of services to multiple different groups of citizins.
Net result? if you can ask the question, an ordinary user of the HRDC database can probably answer it... How about "member of parliament and smoked pot in their youth"? (;-))
--dave
davecb@spamcop.net
comes to us in a remarkably short time after the whole US/World Cybercop thing. Anyone think this is a big inducement into a high profile hack, thus proving that a boundryless cybercop is necessary?
$var = <STDIN>
$var =~ s/\\$//;
this is slashchomp
(PS for all the Canadians reading this, if you don't think the likes of Tom "Sieg Hiel!" Long or Preston Manning wouldn't like to get their hands on this info, your sadly mistaken. The 'Alliance' Facists would be way worse than simply incompetent Liberals)
I agree that either Tom Long or Presto would be an abomination, but looking at Keith Martin I gotta say I'm impressed. He's socially liberal, fiscally sensible and totally ignored by the media cause he's not from Ontario. His being in the party almost makes me not want to run away screaming when I hear the idea of them forming the next government.
And if you think Chretien is incompetent and not evil, I refer you tothe actions he took to stomp out dissent at the APEC conference in Vancouver. If ever there was a fascist running the country (outside of the 1930's but that's a different rant) he is it.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
Apparently un Canadien Francais too, by your spelling. Myself, I'm Canadian.
- In hell, treason is the work of angels.
Well, I've heard a lot of people say that southern United States is a very different place from the north. There was the Civil War, remember? The South attempted to separate, and was successful, but only for a short time. Then there was reconstruction, and the U.S. was whole again. I'm not totally sure, but I believe there were other separatist ramblings in the South into the 20th century until, finally, in the 1960s, some sort of law was passed explicitly forbidding any kind of secession. I'm not entirely sure on that last point -- someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Sure, Québec has been itching to separate since the late 1960s, but support for separation is waning. It has not gotten to the point of insignificance yet, but it will eventually. Although there is currently a separatist provincial government in power there, opinion polls show that most Quebeckers only elected it to rule, not to separate. This actually has the separatists in a bit of a dilemma.
I'm sure there are still people in the southern U.S. who regularly fly the Confederate flag and dream of the "Conferedate States of America", but these days, there is no significant threat to American unity. Eventually the Québec separatism will fade, too.
In the UK, the Department of Social Security maintains a database of everyone with a National Insurance number (= social security id) called the Departmental Central Index. At one stage, it was possible for outside companies to buy info on an id for £5 (about $8) - this was illegal but it happened nonetheless.
It has been estimated that the average Dutch citizen has an entry in 400 databases. Makes you think.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Man, Canada is creepy.
Thank goodness the US government would never keep information like that on it's citizens.
BTW, have you spoken to your Census 2000 rep yet? Mine knocks on the door every damn night, but he looks like a serial killer, so I'm afraid to answer.
Oh well, maybe in 2010.
 -Tommy
------
"I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday."
"I got a half gallon of Jack, and 2 dozen Ant Traps. I'm about to get wild." -me
As a Canadian I can honestly say that I trust Jane Stewart as much as I trust Bill Clinton.
Clinton did not inhale and Jane did not mis-manage 1 BILLON CANADIAN DOLLARS! (600 million US) NOT!!!!
It upsets me that they have a databse containing all of my information, but it really pisses me off that Jane is in control of the information.
Damn it I'm going to have a beer and try to forget I ever read this.
Technology is only a vehicle. People are the ones that drive it.