Slashdot Mirror
Censorship In China
An Anonymous Coward writes: "Have a look at
this Businessweek article:
a site was partly censored for 15 days because of a post uncomfortable to the Chinese government, and
this Mercury Center article
that proposes a more global view of the China/Taiwan issue. Surprisingly, both articles suggest that things are going better and better."
Very topical; the U.S. vote on
permanent normalized trade relations
is scheduled for today.
You forgot India, there are still some sanctions left over from those imposed after May 1999.
I can throw myself at the ground, and miss.
>I don't think Cuba poses much of a threat to the
>country with the largest military in the world
The US does NOT have the largest military in the world.
Know who does? China!
I don't have current numbers, but as of Desert Storm, the US was not even in the top five. There was a big stink about how we were facing the "mother of all wars" against Iraq, which, at the time, and the fourth largest military in the world.
At the time we were number seven. Ahead of Iraq was china, Russia, and vietnam. Desert Storm prolly bumped Iraq out of the picture and upped us to number six.
But then, we've done nothing but cut back the military ever since Desert Storm, so I really doubt that we're still that high. And we certianly do NOT have the largest military in the world. That dubious honor still goes to china.
john
Imagine all the people...
How will keeping China poor help undermine its dictatorship? If it was a racist oligarchy, like South Africa was, then the people on top might be motivated by greed to encourage reforms. But it isn't. A few people wield absolute power, and they are essentially as rich as they want to be.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
If intimidation (sending a threatening letter with the understanding that you can outspend the victim in courts) counts as "due process of law", then I'm not surprised that no one is able to respect the law anymore.
Any American who still finds comfort in the fact that he can't be attacked without "due process" is deluding himself. Is there any connection remaining between the process and justice? All that seperates us from the Chinese are a few words on a page that no one takes seriously anymore anyway.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
And the chinese government *can* keep the internet under control. They *can* control the information infrastructure of the country. And they DO.
Yes.. there is internet in China.. and only those providers who comply with strict regulations can provide it.
As regards the year-to-year renewal process being a motivation factor for China's continued liberalization, there are stronger forces at work there. The Communist Party does understand that private enterprise needs to flourish as the government-owned enterprises collapse or are restructured, since jobs are desperately needed for the millions of urban workers who are being displaced. (I wrote a term paper on this transitional process for a Developmental Economics class once, so I've done some research)
Locking in permanent MFN status for China has been a prerequisite for China's entry into the WTO, which will prove to be more of a liberalizing force than any gaggle of pontificating US Senators could ever hope to be. China's move towards private enterprise over the last 15-20 years has resulted in the single greatest economic achievement in terms of sheer numbers of people lifted out of abject poverty in memory, and a further herculean effort will be needed to avoid social chaos as structural reforms continue. We can either jump on board and help transform the lives of 20% of the people on this planet, or we can create another Cold War. The choice is ours.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
There is no excuse.. We are rather hypocritical in this respect.
[theory]
It's probably a 'love thine enemy' powerplay; Get the Chinese to stop contemplating nuclear first strike against the US by buying them off with the US market. On the other hand, we couldn't really offer Fidel anything he would take in return for the same contemplation..
[/theory]
I'm all for a little China spanking: They deserve it. I'm also for a lift of the embargo with Cuba: They don't..
.sig: Now legally binding!
I know there are human rights violations in Cuba but there's no way that the embargo has ever been about that.
perl -e 'fork||print for split//,"hahahaha"'
So what's the difference between a web site being shut down because it carried information the government didn't like, and being shut down because it carried information some large company didn't like?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
The Chinese leadership is looking at the G7 countries and saying to themselves, "Gee, someday we want to be like them." At the same time, they're looking at the frightening example of the former Soviet countries where productivity has dropped by half in the past decade. The Soviet experience presents a cautionary tale that the Chinese cannot afford to ignore. We do not yet have a model for tranforming a failed communist economy into a successful free market economy. But, we have learned from the Soviet experience that shock treatment doesn't work.
The Chinese have already established a number of highly successful special economic zones where free trade reigns. They've also evinced an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it disposition in Hong Kong since taking over.
Eventually, all of China will become a huge special economic zone. But, remember that the world's largest group of poor, uneducated people lives in China. They'll need to keep basic services like education, food production and medical care (to name a few) running for a few more decades in order to get there. When a critical mass of Chinese are well off and well educated, then they will insist on democracy and an end to corruption, as has recently happened in Taiwan. This will likely occur around the time we have a $1,000 computer about as powerful as a human brain (about twenty five years from now). Sounds like an interesting future.
--
Socrates was asked where he was from. He replied not "Athens," but "The world."
sure. just like in Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia, Mexico....
Yes...and the reason you know that US companies run business in these countries is because when they don't adhere to basic treatment of workers it gets plastered all over the news. Can we say Cathy Lee Gifford? Not to mention comparing Malay, Thai or Korean economic development before and after US companies started doling out the work.
A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society
Washington, D.C.
who think trading with China is a *good thing*.
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
I know this sounds very argumentative, but if money and market size is truly your motivation, then why no lift those same embargoes against Cuba? Standing on moral ground until the market is large enough just looks very hypocritical.
The problem I have in trying to figure out this case is I can't tell how much of part xenophobia plays in this, and I can't tell how much of a real case people have against China. I am not an expert on current US-China trade relationtions, although I do know more then my fair share about Chinese history (I read the Water Margin...twice!)
The problem is that even though the Chinese government is doing plenty of evil things, people would hate them and say they were evil even if they wern't. Can anyone deny that there is a lot of anti-Chinese sentiment in America?
A hundred years ago, there was the same basic arguments about letting Chinese workers into our country (and Chinese workers did end up building most of our Western railroad system, at great cost of life to them). During this time their was great furor in Cali about their ways, probably because they smoked that devil opium and worshipped that pagan Buddha idol. Or basically, FUD because they took jobs away from American workers, or maybe just because they were different. All hidden under a veil of morality.
Much of what still goes on is still the same thing, fear and prejudice disguised as moralizing, this time it is hidden behind the rhetoric of the Chinese government doesn't follow human rights, instead of the Chinese people aren't Christians. And the same economic interests are making this rhetoric important.
Human rights we like to believe, and I think this is true, are more then just a local moralistic prejudice. Our concern about this stems not from trying to force a way of life on others, but on a concern for the Chinese people, and that our oppostion is to the Chinese govermnent.
On the other hand, the opposing argument is that China has a history of authoritarian government, and that it is part of their culture. To oppose the authority of the Chinese government is to oppose the teeming masses of China, who have indirectly given the "mandate of heaven" to their rulers by not rebelling (succesfully, at least). So even if our local notion of rule by the people and by the law is not carried out in China, there is a culturally different but still valid system of popular rule going on in China.
Those, I think are the basic arguments and counter arguments to the China issue. Here are my own humble opinions about what these mean:
1. "Not letting China into the WTO is xenophobia and will bar China from the community of nations." I think this is false. China is already part of the community of nations in most ways, it participates in every major international scientific and diplomatic body AFAIK. They have a permanent seat on the UN council of five! The real issue here is whether they will be let into the system of global capitalism. The interests here seem to both be economic, business vs. unions. Right now I will have to vote with the unions, but in either case they do not need to participate enriching a fraction of the US Economy to participate in global affairs
2. "The government of China is not evil. They are merely trying to admistister a large country and most of the people support them." This, I belive, is true. Considered to some truly brutal dictatorships where you wonder what the strong man is putting on his cereal, China is very well run. China is not a one man state but a state run by a council of older bureacrats who honestly do love their country and want to see it prosper. And they have been seeing it prosper. They are not fanatical with hate, and they do not wish to harm people. They are cold and ruthless, but not cruel.
3. "China has different notions of human rights and government authority caused by their traditions and history." True, but who cares? United States tradition and history said for a long time (for example) that blacks were inferior and that they were fit to be slaves. We realized that this was wrong, and we changed it, or tried to change it. Why is China somehow immune from making changes? And my own sense of personal values, and I think that most people would agree with me, says that human rights (and political rights) are not just local prejudices, not just a cultural thing. They are universal, and any civilized country of any culture or history should recognize them.
Thank you for listening. My own mind is made up that China should not be in the WTO (mostly because I don't like the WTO), but draw your own conclusions.
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
Capitalism has little to do with a nation's government. You can have a democracy, a republic, a parliament, a monarchy, even a dictatorship, and still have a capitalist economy.
Totally false. To the extent your nation is unfree, it isn't capitalist. This is because the defining nature of capitalism is that what's yours is yours, what's mine is mine, and neither of us has a right to take without permission - in other words, freedom. Anything that compromises this (tax-and-spend, communism, censorship etc) will commensurately destroy capitalism.
It runs the other way too, nowadays - capitalism left as an option will undermine and erode restrictions of free choice, by shopping around for legal systems - both on the personal and coprorate levels.
This doesn't mean, though, that companies will gain long-term by buying into corrupt regimes that are prepared to make them special exceptions. Such a situation will always backfire on them in time; they'll themselves become victims of a bigger crony, or they'll lose customers when the customers see the law is biased.
Capitalism pushes legal systems everywhere towards "laissez faire" - where the law is for justice, protection, and arbitration, not for restriction, privelige, or looting.
Hrm...I hadn't thought of that before, but you could be right. Returning China to "Normal Trade Relations" is overtly a political move anyway. It won't really change things except in the political landscape. Ever notice all the "Made in China" items that you can buy at your local store? Well if we didn't have trade how did we get them? The fact is that every year we decide wither or not to trade with China for the duration of that year, and that decicion can be revoked at any time. The whole "embargo" is simply a political bargining tool. Now if we take this threat away will China be more apt to give Taiwan it's freedom? Probably not, but it is a good showing, and will probably play well in the international scene. Myself, I belive when we place a trade embargo on someone we should cut off ALL trade until they show some good faith ( which China HAS NOT DONE ).
:)
But that is a very intresting idea aclaudet, I wouldn't doubt if it had some kernel of truth to it
PS: The text of the bill can be found here there's a PDF version but it's got a horrible layout.
You can find the CNN article here. An amusing point is that there is also a link to a Time article on the point brought up here about whether opening trade with China means trade should be opened up with Cuba. You can find that here.
Major point: The Senate will consider the issue after Memorial Day. The vote will probably come in early June and the normalized trade is expected to pass. It hasn't completely passed yet, but the chances of it failing are miniscule.
B. Elgin
B. Elgin
"Read at your own risk; feel free to ignore."
When I buy a PC, it does not list on the side the countries where all the chip were fabbed, where the fan in the power supply was made, location of the factory that stamped out the connectors for the IDE bus, etc. All these are commodity parts, and tend to be shipped from wherever is supplying them cheapest this month. As a consumer you simply can't know where everything you're buying was built.
That is not to say that you shouldn't take reasonable steps to avoid buy stuff made in countries you dissaprove of, but being 100% sure is impossible without enacting some draconian legislation regarding country-of-origin labeling.
>Do you wear Gap clothes?
nope
>Do you wear Nikes?
nope
>Do you wear any clothes at all? Almost everything
>you wear comes from China.
Lets see... Jacket: Sri Lanka. Shirt: USA. Shoes: UK. Pants: Mexico.
I'm not gonna bother checking to see where my underwear was made. But you get the point.
>The DVD player that you own is made in China.
Wrong again. Mine was made in Japan. As was the DVD-ROM in my computer.
>Just about everything that is mass produced comes
>from there.
Lets see... My car: Japan. My Mac: Ireland. My PC: Japan... (looking at the items on my desk) Telephone: Canada. Keyboard: Thailand BallPoint pen: Taiwan. Headphones: Taiwan Penguin Mints: Seattle... wait. The *box* that the mints are in was made in china.
You were saying something about how important china is to me?
>I can assure you, those $100 Nikes that you so
>enjoy will cost twice as much.
And I couldn't care less. Never owned a pair of nikes. Never will. I'm confidant enough of myself not to have to be a trendy little pissant and try to "be like mike". Too bad you don't understand that that is possible.
john
Imagine all the people...
I doubt it, China very much opposes any sort of recognition of Taiwan, however minor. Just recently, the PRC killed Taiwan's attempt to enter the World Health Organization. See this Taipei Times article for more info. A quote from the article, concerning the recent Taiwan earthquake:
"...This is what happened. On September 21, the UN consulted with the Security Council about providing Taiwan with rescue and relief aid. A UN official then reported that China refused to respond to the issue positively, preventing the UN from providing timely assistance. Published reports later also revealed that China demanded that any UN or Red Cross aid for Taiwan must first be approved by Beijing."
"It is terribly unfortunate that Taiwan, with 23 million people, a population larger than three-quarters of the UN member-states, is not allowed to receive immediate and timely humanitarian assistance from the international community..."
ok. please, tell me why big businesses who use patent laws, law suits, and agressive anti-competetive tactics in the free market economy are not similar in their totalitarian ways than the chinese gov't, who also use tactics to squish critisism.
How can you justify trading with a Chinese Communist government, still unapologetic about human rights violations (i.e. Tienemen Square), when you won't trade with Fidel Castro's Communist Cuba for the same reason?
We can't justify it. There is no excuse. The embargo should be lifted, preferably yesterday.
Right-wingers like to believe that we are making some sort of grand "moral" stand against Fidel Castro and Communism, but as you have pointed out, the hypocrisy is nearly staggering. The United States is the only country in the world that has decided to make such a stand (with the possible exception of Israel, or have they backed down?)
Don't get me wrong; I would very much like to see a democratic, Castro-free Cuba. But keeping up with the embargo is not the way to encourage such a transition. One of the things that people tend to underplay in the collapse of the Soviet Union was the introduction of the Internet into society (and therefore, the fostering of the free exchange of information.) America is doing nothing to contribute to a change of power in Cuba. If anything, we are helping Fidel Castro by giving him a common "enemy" that he can unite his people behind.
If we Americans really wanted freedom and democracy in Cuba, we would drop the embargo. In addition, it would be a boon to U.S. businesses, but that would only be (in my opinion) a side effect.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Well, I'm really not sure what got your panties in a bind, but let me drop a couple of comments back at ya here:
Interesting how you start your article off by saying that there is no porn in China, obviously something that is off the top of your mind.
Not really. I mentioned it first because it's something that I've heard a lot of people discuss in relation to China in a completely different area. Sorry if it disappoints you to hear that.
Actually 4.5 years is a long time ago, and 4.5 months in a farmers town doe snot make you an expert, that slike saying any foreign national who spends 4.5 months in Wyoming is an expert in the affairs of the hallowed halls of Washington.
China is a country of slow social and govornment changes - most of the time. But - even then, I still keep up with events there. As I mentioned I was there on work. The company still travels there, and I still hear how things are - and, for the most part, things haven't changed much. Cell phones are getting more and more dominant, since there's such a long wait for phone service. Those who are in areas where it's not nearly as long of a wait for phone services are slowly getting 'net access - it's quite the growth thing there now. Things change, but I do keep up.
a lot of Chinese actually "like " their government, they have their reasons too, just cause they dont subscribe to the American Constitution, does not mean that they have a shitty government.
I never said they did or didn't like thier govornment. Considering that there are still party members there, at least SOMEONE like it over there. It's the same as here - some people like the govornment, some don't.
And, Yep, as a matter of fact - I do speak Chineese. But, admittedly, I'm not completely fluent - that's what the company's translator was for. I could do quite a bit with what I do know, but, my comprehension of the language does have limitations. And keep in mind - you didn't have much else to do unless you could find a ride to Bejing.
US is not teh centre of the universe buddy, go back to Wyoming
I never said it was. After having seen as much of the US, Canada, China, Hong Kong, and Japan as I managed to get the chance to see, I can honestly say that no - the US isn't the center of the Universe. And I've never been on to claim it was.
And furthermore - I probably shouldn't respond to obvious troll bait, but twits like you piss me off. No one here had stepped forward and said "Yep, I'm familiar with what this particular far away place is like - I've been here. Here's what I know...." So I did, and passed on the information that I knew on the subject. That's part of what /. is about, if I remember correctly. It USED to be very much about the dissemination and trading of information that would be of interest to the geek community at large (in particular, two geeks - you know who) and further discussion with people who understood the subject matter was a joy. It's twits like you that type with one hand on the keyboard and one hand around thier favorite muscle that like to try and piss everyone else off just so you get your jollies that have managed to nearly destroy the ability to have a good dialog on /. Now - did my response finally make you spooge, so that you can go climb back under the covers and get a good night's sleep?
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
This is exactly whats wrong with this entire thread, most people keep assuming the US is this independant entity working its own agenda, which in some cases turns out to be true, but how many of those concerned about China even bothered contacting their Congressperson through phone calls or written non-email letters? 10% 1% Anyone?
As to those who keep harping about how China is "getting better" are unbelievably naive and spoon fed by the media, as the parent poster pointed out. What do you think keeps China interested in winning PR? Free trade, now that they're gonna get it they won't be terribly interested in real reforms.
In the meantime I hope everyone with a Rep who voted yes on this sends him/her a mean letter on how they have lost at least one vote.
After killing off 100 million of their own subjects during the last century in lots of different countries using many, many variations of communism, it's kind of hard to gain any enthusiasm for the proposition that we should still differentiate between good communists and bad communists. This is on par with scrupulously maintaining the distinction between the 'smart' flat earthers and the 'dumb' flat earthers. Give it up already!
Let's face it, at this point, there aren't any good communists, there are just those who have blood on their hands and can't live with the fact that they were a part of the machinery of evil (and are thus in major denial), those who look forward to getting in the power seat and don't mind blood on their hands in future, and those fellow travellers who can't admit to themselves and others that they have been supporting a monstrous unadulterated evil.
DB
don't forget: the US is one of the few nations that hasn't signed the declaration of human rights.
even china signed this.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
I got quite a chuckle out of this bit of the BW article:
> An Internet entrepreneur in Beijing whom I called told me that we should see Yi's punishment as a sign of progress. Chinese journalists
> have landed in jail for lesser offenses.
Gotta love progress. I mean, it's nice that he hasn't been executed or anything, but when being shutdown for a few weeks is considered fortunate.... I almost feel better about living in the US. Then I realize that China is making better forward movement than the US! *shudder* I used to think it wasn't so bad living in one of the dumbest countries in the world.
As to the larger issue of restricting trade with countries which don't adhere to the same cultural values as our own, I don't see what good that does anybody. International cooperation through trade is one of the best agents for peace that's come along in the last fifty years.
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
---
Your comparison of children to women is quaint...when can we expect you to leave the 19th century?
---
Huh?
He was saying that adult women should be treated just like adult males, as well as 'adult' children over the age of 16.
How is this quaint? Wouldn't it be quaint if he said the opposite, ie. that women should be treated differently than men?
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
To be a little redundant, this is not entirely correct. For instance, GTE (a decidedly American company) runs the phones in Romania. This wouldn't be allowed if the country were under embargo. This list looks really out of date.
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
Russia?
Is this list still in effect?
I'm kind of surprised that Russia is on there...
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
censorship is nothing new in china, and frankly i'm nto too surprised. there isn't any real need to make a big deal out of it.
...they want to be open but they just aren't ready for it big time yet. some of the older members of hte party are quite conservative, naturally they worry about the internet because it's so "free".
i hope that everhyone can understand teh position of hte chinese government nhere
please, since this article mentions something abuot normalizing trade with china, i hope that no slashdot reader is put off just because they're doing censorship in china. i'm sure that china will open up one day, but one step at a time, please.
you see china is doing a lot to open up, e.g. here in Hong Kong sar, we have a pretty free society.
While I agree that China has made significant progress in the past 10 years, we still have to remember we are dealing with a country whose government is ideologically opposed to the United States.
On the plus side, China is going about with their reform in a very positive way. Unlike Russia, China is slowly moving towards a more capitalistic society... but sometimes I wonder if it's at the expense of it's citizens.
Ofcourse, if you look at recent events in the US in regards to the WTO meetings and the way the protestors were handled... perhaps we're not much different than China... and maybe we deserve eachother.
On an interesting note, it appears the the FBI considers TAIWAN a priority in counter-intelligence activities, and a hostile intelligence threat to the United States. Reno calls Taiwan an intelligence threat
Humorless sig goes here.
I actually was one of those people born inside a communist state. I can assure you that I wasn't engaged in calling myself an idiot or a murderer. A communist is one who actually believes and acts to advance that belief whether in word or in deed without having a gun put to his head. Thank you for the straw man, NEXT!
OTOH: I am interested in hearing your justification for the Catholic bashing. Nobody is arguing that the Catholic Church was running the death camps in WW II and certainly the Jews of the time had kind words for the pontiff's stands as a leader thumbing his nose at the Axis in the middle of their power. The accusations only started coming years later and it is sad to see off the wall bigotry like you posted above. Shame on you.
DB
"Have a look at this Businessweek article: ... and this Mercury Center article ... . Surprisingly, both articles suggest that things are going better and better." Very topical; the U.S. vote on permanent normalized trade relations is scheduled for today.
Isn't it just an AMAZING coincidence that these papers just HAPPENED to run articles "suggest[ing] that things are going better", just as the vote is coming up in congress?
From time to time you may notice that something is very wrong in some part of the world, and suddenly there are a bunch of stories that say it's right, or rapidly improving. Or you may notice that everybody you know is on one side of the issue and the media talks like everybody is on the other. Or the crowds are bigger on one side of the demonstration and the media reports them as bigger on the other. Or the media reports tiny demonstrations on one side of an issue and ignores big ones on the other. Or the media reports polls that claim you, and everybody you know, are members of a tiny minority on some big issue. And you may wonder why.
And you may wonder why they bother, since EVERYBODY knows things are the other way around.
Consider this:
The congressmen live in a very sheltered environment. They're buried in their work. They almost never get back to their own districts to listen and "soak" in the opinions of their constituents. Whether at work or back home, almost everybody they talk to is trying to convince them to take a side on some issue. And they can't afford to run a LOT of polls on their own. So how do they guage their consituents opinions?
They watch the media.
If the media want to control the country's laws, they don't have to convert the voters. They just have to convince the legislators that the voters are converted. They don't have to fix things in China, they just have to convince the legislators that things are fixed. And so on.
And it's the same when the media wants the executive branch to interpret or enforce laws in some way, put pressure put on or take it off a group or a country, start or stop a war, and so on.
In the sixties they were referred to as "The Establishment Media" and treated as part of a monster. Now the phrase is rarely heard - because the people who once uttered it are members of the very establishment media they once railed against. The slant is different, but the game is the same.
"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
China is... interesting. I spent 4 1/2 months there doing work on a feed mill in Langfang, PRC. (About 2 hours out of Bejing) Being very used to America, going to China was a real eye-opener. Porn? Forget it - it exists, but it's pretty rare. Don't even think about throwing a couple of playboys in your luggage and taking them with you either. (I didn't try it myself.)
Bibles? Forget it. A guy I knew would take a couple with him - but definitely not more than two or three. He was very religious, and didn't typically try and 'convert' the locals, but took some in case anyone was interested in reading about the Christian concepts. If they think you are planning on distributing religious materials, you can find yourself in hot-water quickly.
Don't talk bad about the govornment there. While here in the US there was always the half-joking concept of a 'card carrying communist' it's not much of a joke there. You won't know who is or isn't communist there, unless they pull out thier little red party book. And, talkin' bad about the Chineese govorment is a good way of attracting lots of unwanted attention.
There's lots of things not to take pictures of there. Don't have your pics developed in China - wait until you get home. I learned that one - some of the film I had developed never came back from the photo-developer there in China. I still have no idea what was objectionable in them...
It boils down to: No discussion on govornment. No discussion on religion. No discussion on sex. That's pretty much the rules I learned while I was there.
One other thing of note that's just completely strange to an American - here we are used to hearing what happens everywhere else in the world, and particularly, all the other sections of our own country. In China, it's much, MUCH slower for information to get around - most of it is still word of mouth the last time I was there. Newspapers and TV are a joke, as only 'approved' stuff get through.
Granted - this was also 4 years ago that I was there. Things may well have changed by now.
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
Chi na bans Taiwan's Madonna
Beijing has banned one of Taiwan's top pop
stars after she sang the island's national
anthem at last Saturday's inauguration of
President Chen Shui-bian.
A-Mei, who is wildly popular on the mainland,
has been permanently blacklisted in China,
officials said.
US soft drinks giant
Coca-Cola has been
forced to drop a
multi-million dollar
advertising campaign in
China featuring A-Mei.
Sigged!
but I would imagine since Cuba is only a short boat ride away from the USA and China is way across the Pacific ocean, Cuba could pose a more serious direct threat than the Chinese.
Cuba a threat to the US? How? The only threat they ever posed to the US was as a staging ground for the Russians, which is hardly the case any more. It's not like they could invade the US is it?
Plus, wasn't the embargo placed back in the 60's when we WERE having problems with Cuba?
So we should keep it in place now? This seems to be what you're implying.
It's not the fact that they're communist moreso as to how they treat their citizens and how much of a threat they are to the USA.
From what I've read and seen Cuba, although extremely poor, does not treat its citizens badly. They get free education and health care, and in fact they produce a lot of doctors which work across South and Central America.
It looks to me like you've fallen for the anti-Red propaganda which was used during the Cold War to justify US "action" against Cuba, but which is sadly outdated today.
future headlines:
Vanity in Hollywood!
Pot in Amsterdam!
Greed on Wall Street!
Mounties in Canada!
/. : News for Shut-ins. Stuff that's obvious.
It is good to point out that American Companies operating in China will provide better working conditions. This will lead to competition and overall an improvement in human treatment. American Companies not treating workers properly will face trouble back home. Still, I fear the prospect of China doing an about face onece they get into the WTO and MFN permanent status. Once either of these is granted then taking them away will be a political nightmare.
Companies like Levi and General Motors are poised to start operations, but who is to say that later in the near term future China develops their own facilities for manufacturing these goods and either kicks the US company out or the government works against them. It could be as simple as the Chinese government declaring that workers who work for real Chinese companies are more patriotic than those who don't or implementing a special tax/levy.
We are essentially giving up much of out leverage over their economy in hops that they will follow through on their end.
Forewarning, this is all IMHO and I don't have any facts to back it up, however these are some conclusions myself and others who were talking about this have came to...
First of all, the reason why the US politics is so involved with China:
The Clinton Administration recieved large amounts of funding from China during (the early part?) of his campain. Now after denying this as an influence, China has a large influence on the Presidents reputation and standing. Blackmail is a possibility. Another could be the alleged rumors of Clintions involvment with communism and his views on it. I know not what these are, but perhaps its something he believes in and is working toward. Or I could just be talking out of my ass.
China, while not nessicarily a *rich* country overall, does have some wealth, at least in its government. A highly contraverial possiblity is that while we may not like/agree with china, we do have the possiblity to make money off of these deals....though I believe that it would cost us more in the long run
Censorship:
What about it...they're a comunist country, they control the media just as business controls ours (USA). Our governemt is influenced by other governments and business and in a since is just another big business. With enough money, you can make damn near anything happen....
Sorry if I went really OT
and don't flame me for my spelling i know it sucks.
Hmmm, let's see: In Miami, many Cuban performers cannot perform at local theatres because of the outrage from the Cuban-exile community. I was spat upon when trying to catch a piano recital from a person who had once visited Cuba. Art studios locally have banned Cuban artists. Some have protested Borges in school libraries. Some have said that the difference here is that in China censorship is government approved and in Miami not so. Nope. The politicians here look the other way.
As a person with Hispanic and Asian roots it is doubly difficult to condemn other countries when ideals of freedom, the basis for the Constitution, are being trampled locally.
Even something as simple and innocent as a nude photograph can be prohibited here. Because of a vocal minority, a black & white nude photograph was censored from a local high school art show. Not long ago, a nude, non-erotic sculpture was also censored. Though I respect the right of a school administrator to maintain order, at what point is it crossing the line to some nightmarish Orwellian vision?
As much as I despise censorship, it is somewhat disingenuous to decry foreign violations when we (at least in Miami) are as guilty.
If anyone cares, here is a list of countries currently under embargo by the U.S.:
Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Cambodia, China (PRC), Cuba, Estonia, Georgia, Iran, Iraq, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Latvia, Libya, Lithuania, Macao (Macau), Moldova, North Korea, Romania, Russia, Syria, Sudan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Yugoslavia (Serbia), Ukraine, Uzbekistan, Vietnam
sig this
...I think that site would be down for good.
Here ya go.
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+&x
My dad, who works in Beijing, China, is a geneticist. So when the news broke that human chromosome 21 had been mapped, I sent him a link to the BBC News article on the event. He replied that he couldn't read the article in China, and asked me to email him the text. Same thing happened with the chromosome 21 article published in Nature . Had to email him the PDF.
Possibly off-topic but I was thinking about the trade status thing. What if the whole normalization of trade relations was just a setup for a formal recognition of Taiwan?
I think the US will vote yes on the trade status of China. After the European Union voted yes just last week, I don't see how the US could say no, just from an economic standpoint.
The human rights violation issue is irrelevent to our government, money comes first. They put up a small show to make it look like they care, but all they've done is delay what they will inevetably do. Keep in mind the United states government doesn't have a very good track record itself, the only difference is that our government typically uses a few layers of insulation. It could be simple complacency as in the case of Indonesia taking over East Timor (the US didn't care, this was in the 70's, while about 25% of the population was killed if I remember correctly). Or it could be supporting and installing leaders (dictators) and training armies as was done in central America in the 80's, and in Africa as well. Even at home, we see police operating at oppressive levels, especially in the inner city. Keeping your population subverted works differently in a "free", capitalist society: the government needs a few layers of deniability, and you rarely hear about this stuff anyway. I'll bet some readers won't even beleive what I've said, or, not understand how bad it really is.
Anyway, onto the censorship issue. Barring some cyberpunk future where corporations own the landscape, China really could become the next superpower. I can't see the US being able to change enough to maintain the lead technologically and economically. You look at all the bills being passed here (DMCA, etc), and look at how much this will stifle competition and innovation. You can't maintain a lead without these things. US corporations are just unwilling to lose some profits now for long term success.
Of course, China will have a tough go at it since they aren't a very free society. The US isn't much better, there is plenty of indoctrination and censorship used by the press, and a truly free society would be a form of anarchy anyway. Look at what they have going for them though. The largest population in the world, a population that puts education near the top of it's priority list (I mean culturally, I don't know how much the government puts into it percentage wise), and markets that haven't been developed yet. By this last item I mean that they don't have a lot of infrasturcture stuck in current or (especially) past technologies like the US and Japan do. All these things give them a lot of potential. Whether or not China can take a lead sometime in the distant future without some Democratic revolution, I don't know. I think they're the most interesting country to watch in the future.
Normally I make no comment on apparent trolls, but this is just too silly.
What's the obsession about tech stocks falling? You are so quick to see conflict of interest where it not only doesn't exist, but couldn't exist. Taco and his minions have always been biased. Pro Linux, anti MS, quick to post anything with "nano" in the headline.
I think this story made it through because sometimes the minions feel they can make a difference in the world. They're young, give them some slack. It may be years before feelings of futility and ennui set in. In the meantime, we'll all just have to be patient.