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Sony Dismisses Claims Against Playstation Emulator
Gridle writes "According to this CNet article, Sony has voluntarily taken back the patent infringement case against Connectix, the makers of Virtual Game Station, a Playstation emulator for Macs and PCs. Here's the press release from Connectix."
With the...er, hacker, nature of Slashdotters, I'm wondering why there aren't any playstation emus for Linux.
If VGS can do it, and now even legally, why aren't there thousands of slashdot monkeys at thousands of computers writing software to turn my $2000 computer into a $100 game console?
I believe that you could patent the concept of rotary blades within the context of a reaper (at least at this time), provided that there was no existing/known usage of rotory blades for reaping. Your patent for such would not prevent me for patenting rotary blades for cutting hair...
So now i have to pay out the ass for an HDTV that will only look good with my PS2 and while watching Jay Leno? Screw that, have you seen the prices on those things? I could buy 2 or 3 machines for that.
No, it's not stupid. They were obviously hoping that a lot more of those allegations would stick. When only 2 of them did, they decided that it wasn't even worth pursuing that case. They are planning on trying something else with another suit against Connectix.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
But with Bleem coming out for Dreamcast, PlayStation games will actually look *better* than on the original platform - there are shots floating around of 'before and after' Gran Turismo that when running on DC, it looks far smoother around the edges. Not sure if this is a bad or good thing for Sony though. After all, like you say, it's money in their pocket - and if Sega is selling Dreamcast at a loss, it's taking money away from them. Stu
------------------------- Stuart Dredge Features Editor Create magazine
I also doubt that the point of Bleem! for Dreamcast is to sell to people who already have Playstations.
In conclusion, Sony sucks.
If they ever get the Micros~1 style monopoly they want over video gaming, expect games to show the same high level of quality and originality as Windows shows stability and security.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Based on the extortion that went on when MS got Steve Jobs to put IE as default on MacOS in exchange for MSOffice-Mac, I'm guessing a similar thing is going on with MS's purchase of Bungie.
Bungie's Halo was Steve Jobs' flagship evidence to the computing world that the Mac was a viable gaming platform. Microsoft's recent purchase of Bungie makes Steve Jobs look like an idiot. I'm guessing the deal will go down like this:
(Apple already dumped Game Sprockets. . . hm)
Apple will announce that it is dumping Quartz, and replacing it with some bastardized DirectX-based technology from Microsoft, and Halo will be available for Mac - but behind the scenes, MS has ripped out the guts of Halo and replaced them with DirectX so it will run on XBox, and the only easy way to port it would be to port DirectX to Mac.
Won't that suck?
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Hehe, very funnt. You actually think that the fastest part in the Emotion Engine is the 128-bit registers....very funny indeed. The registers are there to make it possible to store bigger chunks of data in one register instead of in several as the case can be with the 32-bit processors. But rest assured that the fast think in the PSX2 is the logic behind. It uses two 64-bit integer unit (which makes integer calculation really fast) and a 128-bit "multimedia command unit" (and thats a nice name for SIMD, 3Dnow etc..) and that makes it faster, just as SIMD on the P3 is faster to the no SIMD processors. Then we have to take into account the damn fast bus speed which is impressive, the PC only has it on new graphicscards, not even AGPx4 comes cloes to 3.2 Gb/s. So what I wanted to say after this ranting is that the PSX2 sure is fast, but don't be so narrow minded and naive that you think the real stuff is the "128-bit system", because it almost never is.
Damn right! after all, what *IS* the PlayStation2's ability to run PSX games all about if not emulation? blah
Of course, TransMeta CPUs should do the emulation must faster, but they have CLOSED that part of their architecture ...
--
It's a
-- Danny Vermin
The way things are going lately, you probably could patent rotary blades in any context. Hell, you could probably patent any and all blades.
Hey, shit! I gotta get me over to the patent office PRONTO!
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
You don't really need to read the ROM - you can download them from various sites (sorta like warez).
NESticle is one emulator, and there are a bunch of others.
-Dave Turner.
Become a FSF associate member before the low #s are used
VGS is a much better emulator. Bleem seems to serious problems with too many games.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
How? With no modifications, no?
> MS does make some very decent Mac software (Office98 and IE 5))
Here I feel I should speak out briefly. There is a difference between having lots of useful features, and actually *working*. Both Office 98 and IE5 have excellent features that are to be found nowhere else, so I use them a lot.
However, little things can get in the way: create a large-ish Word document (over 10-15 pages), add a table, and it almost invariably screws up the document, even to the point ot crashing the computer. And IE5 *doesn't* send the "Refresh" command properly to a proxy - which is pretty fucking vital for a browser.
There are many more examples of this kind of behaviour in those 2 applications. MS can often have great ideas. But it's implementation is seriously fucked up.
And now back to the scheduled program...
- Oliver
"exp(i*Pi)+1=0" - Euler
- Oliver
The right to bear arms is only slightly less stupid than the right to arm bears...
It seems that with 7 of the 9 allegations being tossed right out, they probably didn't have much of a case.
That's a stupid thing to say. If 7 of the 9 allegations were tossed out, that means 2 of them were not tossed out. I don't know too much about the law, but I believe it's fairly standard practice to throw a whole plateful of allegations and see which ones stick. After all, it's the court's job to decide which ones hold water and which ones are just dumb, as they did in this case.
I've seen a lot of people ask why would anyone want to use an EMU when the original system has perfect compatibility and doesn't cost much more...
Here are my answers:
1. It usually does cost more to buy a console than an emulator.
2. By the time the Emulator is complete usually PC hardware is up to date to play the games better than the original console.
3. Consoles break, PC's do as well, but over time, it's easier to keep the PC alive as when something breaks you can just upgrade it to the latest and greatest.
4. Some emulators are freeware which would theoretically mean that anyone could attempt to program a game. It's tough to do that on a console without the proper software.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
I also believe the fact that the PSX1 will soon be obsoleted by the PSX2 had something to do with the decision
now, if they'd come up with a psx2 emulator (which would be nigh-impossible now, but give them a few years), it would be a different story.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but I once did exactly this.. VMware on NT booting Linux, Linux running ZSnes in Wine, and playing Super Mario Kart.. All because NT wouldn't run ZSnes right, and I was bored..
C'mon! Any one else do this? Don't tell me you haven't!
.sig: Now legally binding!
In case you haven't noticed the trend lately, copyright infringement suits are unpopular with the public. Companies that file them are thought of as "traditional" or "old fashioned" and the suits thus considered petty.
One thing I have always noticed about Sony is they are fairly "hip". They are up on modern business strategy as well as technology. I would expect this suit to disappear entirely.
-Effendi
-Effendi
hahaha
Isn't it funny, though, that wine ran the program better than WinNT itself? Use that against your microsoft lovers!
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
If you don't know/care about the details, how can you profess to have any opinion at all?
-CZSorry, but closemindedness == idiocy in my opinion, and therefore renders anything you may have to say completely worthless.
This is therefore, a Bad Thing.
What would be really sweet, is if Connectix released their PS2 emulator before PS2 was released in the states.
The ultimate "F-U Sony!"
They should put a little sticker on the package:
"It's a Phony!"
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I think you hit the nail on the head, here. Sony doesn't want settlement in a court, as that limits their options in the future. This is simply a means of intimidation, and Sony's hardly the first to employ it.
Sony is suing on the grounds of theft of intellectual property. They own the intellectual property required to write the emulator, and therefore can sit around writing emulators for their own stuff until the cows come home.
They are attempting to stop anyone who does not have license to use their intellectual property from doing the same.
---
Gort! Klatu Barata Nikto!
They probably figured why bother with this case since PSX2 is almost out.
Reverse engineering has always been a hot topic. The issue comes down to what exactly was done. The ethical (and I believe legal as well but IANAL) litmus test that has generally been accepted is the black box idea--you treat something as a black box--info goes into it and then info comes out of it--and you make something that performs exactly the same way without actually looking into the box. My understanding was that Connectix (with previous experience in emulation software) was very careful to do it this way and could prove they did it this way. The Sony lawsuit was not about winning, but rather about pushing back the release and slowing sales of the Connectix product. It worked, and with the PS2 out, they'll probably do the same thing again.
As an aside, thankfully Compaq reverse engineered the IBM PC ROM using the same "black box" technique and helped launch an industry and change the world (tough to admit for a Mac lover).
Vote Quimby.
No. A court found the copyright infringement claims invalid. Sony has voluntarily dropped the patent infringement claims, suggesting to me that they probably weren't valid either---if they did have a valid patent claim they have lots of money for lawyers and they could easily win. This is pretty much what I'd expect for a clean-room reverse engineered product: any overlap with Sony's intellectual property would have to have been the result of chance; that's pretty unlikely.
Here's a laymans rundown of what various forms of intellectual property traditionally protect: Trademarks protect a particular name or logo that distinguishes a company or product in the market. This case has nothing to do with trademarks. Copyrights protect the particular expression of an idea. Patents protect a particular implementation of a functional idea (i.e. an invention, defined quite narrowly by how it was implemented). Trade secrets protect all sorts of things, but once the cat is out of the bag they provide no protection at all. The real issues here were copyright and patent infringement.
Smart people trying to produce an emulator would have poked through the Playstation and documented the interface for games without describing Sony's patented algorithms or providing any of Sony's copyrighted code; then a separate team would have written an emulator to the specification without even looking at a console. (i.e. the clean room reverse engineering mentioned above). Barring a massive coincidence, this pretty much guarantees that they don't use any of Sony's IP.
Regarding your own hypothetical product, anyone is free to make a product that does the same thing, so long as it doesn't borrow from your particular implementation. Thus _all_ people can profit from their own particular ideas and innovations, including emulator companies.
I wonder if Connectix is thinking of suing Sony for making them waste all that money on a defense.
--
Sony has voluntarily taken back the patent infringement
The article at the link sure didn't read that way to me. It sounded like after losing seven out of their nine issues at court, Sony decided the cost of the lawsuit didn't justify the chance of winning. After all, their executives refused to comment; if they had been doing this out of a sense of "right", naturally they would have hyped it up into a big PR thing.
In conclusion, Sony remains evil, but at least the forces of evil have been held at bay... for now.
"Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he deems himself your master."
Notice that land ownership is a strange concept - in what sense do you own land? Do you own everything beneath the surface as well? How far? Land is already an abstract concept very different from, say, a saw or a hammer.
Thus if one uses your definition, we own very few things, perhaps even none at all.
I would argue there is no such thing as a "natural right" or entitlement. All rights and entitlements are rules that have been developed by humankind over thousands of years. Rocks, trees and animals do not have rights. While information ownership might be different from ownership of physical objects (but perhaps not so different from land ownership (btw most land used to be the property of the local ruler or king)), the property rights for information fall within a certain pattern of development. As law and society reached a certain stage, copyright became necessary to encourage innovation and to ensure stability.The distiction between ownership and copyright is purely a matter of terms. Copyright is the idea of ownership taken to a new domain.
Nice troll...
Does anyone know why Sony bailed? Sony was "unavailable for comment." Hypothetically, what would some reasons be? Did they think they would lose the case or are they just waiting for more ammunition?
Start with a G4-based enterprise server (not the Macintosh)
Install LinuxPPC
Run Mac-on-Linux
Run the RealPC emulator for Macintosh
Install a lilo dual-boot of Windows and Linux on that
Within the Linux partition, run Wine on VMWare
Within Wine, run VGS.
Half measures never got us nuthin! :)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
I thought DeCSS was cracked because they reverse-engineered/disassembled a Windows player that didn't encrypt its CSS key and this info was enough to crack all the keys.
If thats the case, it shouldn't apply. Connectix black-box reverse engineered it as opposed to hacking on a Playsation to see what it does.
Just because a company is selling something at a loss doesn't give someone else the right take to take the idea a do as they wish with it. I'm not saying that the emulator idea was stolen, I DO believe that they legitimitly came up with the idea, and have every right to sell it. But I don't like seeing "They are selling Playstations at a loss" as a reason when piracy of the system should be allowed.
Acctually, they arent using an emulator. They have an I/O processor in the Playstation 2 that acts as the Playstation 1's CPU. So their not using an emulator because the actual PSX hardware is in the PS2.
I guess its hardware emulation then, rather than software.
The reference to "don't bother to correct me" was in regards to my word choice of "routines". What I was trying to convey was that whether it be routines, ideas, or a logo - it doesn't matter - it's not something I support.
The topic was more of the timing and cost issue, and not about the details of the lawsuit, so I was trying to stay away from it, and my original intent was to encourage others to not talk about it on this particular thread.
Still, I think what I meant to say didn't come out right. It looks like I worded it in a way that sounded stubborn and ignorant, and took away from what I was really trying to say. Apologies.
The reference to "don't bother to correct me" was in regards to my word choice of "routines". What I was trying to convey was that whether it be routines, ideas, or a logo - it doesn't matter - please don't go nitpicking about my word choice of "routines" -- stealing proprietary stuff is not something I support, period.
The topic was more of the timing and cost issue, and not about the details of the lawsuit, so I was trying to stay away from it, and my original intent was to encourage others to not talk about it on this particular thread.
Still, I think what I meant to say didn't come out right. It looks like I worded it in a way that sounded stubborn and ignorant, and took away from what I was really trying to say. I shall be more careful in the future. Apologies.
More specifically, the PS2's I/O chip IS the psx cpu. :) It even has it's own 2mb of on chip RAM as well. In reality, PS2 has a PSX on it's mb, but with the abilty to optionally use faster CDROM speeds and texture filtering as well.
Yeah. I don't know how they get around the sound and GPU problem though. I guess they just have software routines for those... or something.
Perhaps the XBox could be emulated, but it would be exceedingly difficult to do with the PS2 or Dreamcast, since both use a sort of multi-processor setup, which is nearly impossible to emulate. You ever wonder why you never see any Sega Saturn emulators? That's why. Even if you were to have two processors on a motherboard, each emulating one of the processors, the simultaety still needs to be preserved, which is not a key part of emulators. Oh well. Save a life. Buy more cheese. - Naerbnic
So there I was, juggling apples and small animals, when I accidentally bit into the wrong one...
Thank god the USPTO is not full of people like you. You can't patent output. Duh? In addition, to patent something, full disclosure is required. This prevents me from slapping the "big black box" on to another man's invention and patenting it.
"The methods are irrelevant." I nearly laughed so hard when I read this. The methods are all that are protected by patent law.
Emulation is not illegal, you dumb ass. Using images of the device being emulated, without owning that property, is illegal.
Get your facts straight before responding in a hostile manner to a person who knows what he is talking about.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
It was terribly expensive and a bitch to get. If you count that as "opening the psx," then yes.
since they make a profit on every Playstation game sold ... The real hot water that the presence of a legally reverse-engineered emu. puts them in is, Why shouldn't Bleem tell other people how to make compatible versions of the software? Then Sony would lose out. They should have embraced Bleem in th first place, and even braught / branded / co-licensed the emu. Dumb business!;) sw
"Hey Carlito, r'membah me? Benny Blanco from the Bronx!"
Okay fine. It isn't stealing.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
While I wholeheartedly agree that this "Can't play foreign-coded games" idea sucks, admittedly, it's their right to control how their games are released, priced, supported, etc... For you to say that there is a compatability issue when using your mod chip is not really fair.
Put yourself in their (Sony/game-maker's) shoes... I'm sure the game-makers want their products to have the labels, packaging, game content in the correct language, right? I'm sure they would want their customer service staffed correctly, and their webpage, commercials, and on-line store updated and deployed as well... Okay, so most people would probably agree that customer service is a joke, and that you'd rather have the game *now* vs. having the correct documentation... but to them, it's their bread and butter. They would want to present it the best way they can, so that it will do well. The last thing they would want is for 1 million copies of their games making it to the US, but everything written in Japanese... And the phones start ringing...
So... while I admittedly don't know if Sony is truly evil or not (hehe), using the above scenario, I can understand why the game developers would support, (if not demand/plead) that Sony create country codes and limitations...
Okay, so now that I've given my "oh well, we have to be fair" statement above, I will, for the record, say that yes, it sucks to have to have two PSX's in order to play Japanese and US games hassle-free. (by hassle I mean mod-chip, stuff not working, etc..) The cost of two units is not what bothers me.. it's the fact that I could just as easily just have one unit, and half the cables running around... LOL. Alas...
Here's how it goes:
1. Sony is selling playstation units at a loss, to earn money from selling the games.
2. Connectix starts selling an emulator. This has two effects:
a) Sony gets to sell less playstation units (lose less money) and
b) Sony gets to sell more games (earn more money).
The question was simply: why are they pulling a law suit against something that they could earn alot of money from?
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
I have been wronged the bastard admitted it in #slashdot
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Fucking hypocrite.
Granted, I don't support reverse-engineering and stealing proprietary routines (and don't bother to correct me, as I don't know/care about the details)...
Strike 1. Proprietary routines were not stolen. Proprietary hardware was not stolen. Pheonix clean roomed an IBM compatible BIOS. That's why PCs are cheap and Macs are expensive. Or should we all be driving Fords in Black only?
Honestly... do you know anyone who decided to buy the emulator over the "real" unit? Maybe you do, but I, for one, don't.
I bought one. Thank you.
If you're going to spend $30-$50 on an emulator, you might as well go spend $89 at your local Target/Wal-mart and get the darn unit - no compatibility issues, etc... Most of the folks
who have the emulator already have the PSX, and they still buy all the games.
You'd pay 90 for something you get for 30. Well folks, the new math is in.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Sony is a four letter word, thats all i have to say
Yes, there was a Black Playstation which was called the NetYaroze. It let you use a basic API on your PC to write games, which were d/l into your playstation via cable (Can't have people burning PSX cds, now can they?). However, there were a few things which limited it. First off, it is no longer being sold. Second, your programs had to be less than 2megs, since that was the size of the PSX's RAM. That two megs also included a 500KB API library included with it. And of course, you couldn't show your friends unless they also had a NetYaroze. So the Black playstation wasn't all that it was cracked up to be. You can find some more info, including some on how to make real PSX games at Hitmen or Napalm.
Save a life. Buy more cheese.
- Naerbnic
So there I was, juggling apples and small animals, when I accidentally bit into the wrong one...
> I can't simply duplicate McCormick's reaper...
McCoy, n'est pas? As in "the Real McCoy".
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I thought all of this stuff was settled way back in the day when people started making hardware emulators (or clones if you prefer) of the Atari 2600. Like the 2600 addon you could get with the Intellivision (II), and the 2600 system marketed by montgomery wards.. and probably others. I know Atari had some big problem with that, but then they lost in court. Is a hardware emulator so much different legally than a software one?
and don't bother to correct me, as I don't know/care about the details
IOW: I feel the say that I feel and I don't care if I'm a baby who is basing my opinion on nohting factual. Leave me and my little dream world alone.
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
You stupid bastard. The 9th Curcuit Court of appeal isn't the 9th court that hears your case. It's based upon geopgraphical jurisdiction. The 9th Circuit covers one area and the 11th Ciruit covers another area.....
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
And how many Atari emulators do you think there are? eh?
Buying a Dell computer is equivalent to dropping the soap in a prison shower.
Did it occur to you that perhaps Sodakar has an opinion based on a sense of right/wrong, and doesn't care about the details of laws he/she doesn't agree with?
what you said, in other words, is: I feel it is my duty to define what other people mean by their statements and pass arbitrary judgements on them.
In that sense intellectual property is not all that different from any other kind of property.
The Win2k kernel is loaded from the disc? That would mean your emulator would have to be able to emulate whatever changes have occured to the different kernels that are on the discs of many different games. Sound like a good way to sacrifice load-time for the gain of a harder to emulate system and a decent hidden upgrade path.
Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
I would think that emulating an X-Box on a PC wouldn't be terribly different
True, but Connectix makes great emulators for MacOS as well (VGS and VirtualPC). I imagine that MS will make X-Box games work on Windows, but I'm not so sure they will go after the MacOS market (it *is* possible -- there is money to be made from Mac users, and MS does make some very decent Mac software (Office98 and IE 5)).
If Micosoft isn't interested in supporting games on MacOS, perhaps Connectix can step in to make that work.
- Isaac =)
Did it occur to you that perhaps Sodakar has an opinion based on a sense of right/wrong, and doesn't care about the details of laws he/she doesn't agree with?
So, like I said. He feels the way that he feels and doesn't want to let the facts, or reality, get in the way.
what you said, in other words, is: I feel it is my duty to define what other people mean by their statements and pass arbitrary judgements on them.
That's pretty much it.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
What the hell are you talking about? Yes, MicroSoft has been accused of many things, but stealing intellectual property is not one of them!
(With all of the valid things to complain about, claiming that Linux ripped all of its code from other sources is just silly. If you honestly believe that, you don't write code either.)
Sigh. So much for Sony seeing the light.
I wish my N64 could play my SNES and NES games! I hope that because Sony has done this, other companies will.
Sony was slowly losing their entire case. In the past few months, one claim after another was tossed out by the court; eg. had no merit. Sony was facing a difficult task on the remaining claims. And oh by the way .....
Sony is huge player in the games title business (er... I mean content). They didn't see the logic of going to court and pissing off a bunch of game evangelists all for the sake of preserving a low margin aspect of their business - the HARDWARE end when they could just coopt and force more games through the channel. Games is where they make the real money cause you invest to get the first one and then each next copy takes a few bucks to make, distribute and sell. Consoles are expensive to make, hard to ship, get returned....blah blah blah.
And anyway does emu run as well as a console? or is a BIG company like Sony banking that slow performance will motivate folks to switch to a console. And what about PS2?
For those of you truly interested in this topic, here is an article that has an interview with the CEO of Connectix regarding this issue. It's posted at MacNN.
It's only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything...
Posted by 11223:
:)). The hardware can certainly be emulated ('specially if you own an nVidia board then).
It's not using an undocumented API, because each game disc boots a modified Win2K kernel that's on the disc. (Some faith they place in their software to never need upgrades
A few extra notes on Net Yaroze:
- while you were limited by the PSX RAM, you could get around that by writing your own routines and such to use the serial port that connected to the PC. Sony didn't include such routines, you had to make your own.
- all told, in the Yaroze system there is 1.5 MB of RAM for game code, 1 MB for graphics, 0.5 MB for sound.
- according to Sony, you didn't even own the Net Yaroze that you paid for -- you paid for licensing to use the unit while Sony still technically owned the hardware.
A Net Yaroze FAQ: http://www.scea.sony.com/net/faqmain.htm
J
ummm, dude.
I feel more dumb for having read your comment, but anyways: It's districts. not 9 trials.
as in, "i have to go down to the ninth circuit court today and file a motion to ban all ignorant people from life on earth."
im chuckling on the inside.
Vanguard
"To his their own, but I'll take mine with KDE and a side or of shells!"
"I think, therefore I get paid."
I have a USB -> PSX adaptor, so I can use a *real* Dual Shock. Mmm...emulation. Mind you they only make this for the PC.
When taking on an organisation with more resources than you theres only really one way to win. Guerillas around the world have been doing it sending better-equipped and massively outnumbering armies packing, Corporations have been doing it to each other, individuals have been managing to stick it to city hall with the same technique. It all boils down to this...
"Yes, you can crush me eventually but you will have to work at it and in the process you are going to look very bad indeed. Theres also the horrible chance that one day you might wake up to find you've lost bigtime in one too many of these battles. Is it really worth it?"
Sony obviously no longer think it is worth it
# human firmware exploit
# Word will insert into your optic buffer
# without bounds checking
I had a
"Theft of intellectual property"? TINST(AIP).
I don't think that there are any viablity concerns with Connectix's product. It's not like it's a windows emulator, where companies might not want to invest serious money into a program that might be broken with the next set up application releases. It emulates hardware that's already on the market. If it plays the games, no ones going to NOT buy it because they're afraid that Connectix won't be around in 6 months to support it. This isn't ERP software!!
Sony's probably realized that the current PC hardware can handle "older" Play Station titles, but it'll still be a few years before the PC can challenge the Play Station 2. Just used the lawsuit as a set of stall tactics until they were near ready to start delivering the Playstation 2.
My opinion.
VGS has a Mac native version. It was out before the PC version.
Armando Rojas
Sony makes little to no money off of their hardware (in the case of Playstation 2, it reportedly costs more than double the retail price to manufacture!). Their money is made off Playstation software, and things like bleem! and Virtual Game Station only *expand* the market for that software. I'm surprised Sony hasn't attempted to create an "officially licensed" emulator, as some software companies have. (Activision, Williams, and Konami all sell discs with their older games running on emulators).
They've lost every case so far against Connectix. They probably are tired of spending money on the legal fees. They don't really need to worry too much about it anymore with PSX/2 coming out.
Short interview with Connectix CEO
He mentions that a key point is that the technique of reverse engineering was completely cleared, opening the door to creating PS2, Dreamcast, and even X-Box emulators in the future (once PC hardware speeds are capable of it).
- Isaac =)
So this means we shouldn't defend our intellectual property now? Sony tried very hard to create a game system that was reasonably priced that could play cutting-edge games - and someone took their ideas and patents, released a competiting product.
People, that's theft of intellectual property -- that's the same stuff that Microsoft is getting in trouble with the DOJ.
So what does this mean? We can't defend what's rightfully ours anymore? If I make a product, patent and trademark it, and someone comes along and makes a product that does in essence, the same thing my product does, causing me to lose sales, I'm going to sue for patent infringement. I can't believe Sony backed off of this case -- if I were in their shoes, I'd sue Connectix and Bleem for every last cent they have.
Wasn't Sony the one that opened up the PSX... and they also created that black version for regular people to develop with?!
kick some CAD
If we all could just have just been happy with the original Atari gamming system, all this pain could have been avoided. The answer is in you.
Get your own Red Swingline Stapler
Read about it!
Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
Sony have probably finally realized that licensing the PS2 platform will be a lot easier if they don't sue their most likely ( and lucrative)future licensees. Look for Connectix to start having to pay royalties soon...
Interesting - I heard that if your hardware was good enough, then the resultant emulation was actually much better than what the PlayStation hardware could give (in terms of resolution & such). I haven't tried it myself (yet), but that's what I heard.
Sony has refiled their suit against Connectix.
Heck, you just shoot yourself in the foot by slowing down game cartridge sales.
Economics 101 - you lose money on the game box, you make it on the game cartridges. Anything that sells more game cartridges is good.
[disclosure - my son and I own lots of shares of Nintendo]
Will in Seattle
I know you're joking, but I've actually become quite entranced by the GameBoy platform recently. It's simple, VERY well documented, and lots of free tools exist for developing for it. Nintendo doesn't seem to be too annoying about shutting down emulator and reverse engineering projects, too (they even released a game "Harvest Moon" recently, which was developed by amateurs). And best yet (in my view) no high-3D-flashiness/low-gameplay!
If you yearn for classic gaming and a reasonably open platform, grab an emulator (rew) and assembler (rgbasm) and check it out!
I would say that copyright infringement suits are certainly unpopular with the majority of Sony's PlayStation market. My mom and dad don't care, but they also don't buy video games.
Shouldn't this have a favorable impact on any ruling rgarding DeCSS? It's practically the same thing i.e. Connectix provided a way for play Workstation disks on non-Sony players; DeCSS provides for a way to play DVD's on PC's.
(Yes, it is a PSX emulator)
Well, not really.
The PSX has the origional controller of the PS in it, and uses that to run PS games. Thus, it does not emulate the controll, but runs it nativly, It does how ever emulate the graphics and sound processors that the old one used, but the core is the origional. Kind of a reverse emulation of the origional playstation. IMOH of course.
I sig therefore I am...
From my perspective, the only important difference between the PSX and CVGS is the input device. Macs and PCs typically don't come with PSX game pads.
That said, you can certainly get PSX-like controllers.
your emulator would have to be able to emulate whatever changes have occured to the different kernels that are on the discs of many different games
Or it could simply (heh) emulate the hardware itself. Then the games can change their kernals as much as they want. That's how VirtualPC works on the Mac. It emulates all the pieces of hardware (CPU, BIOS, serial ports, ethernet card, etc) so you can install pretty much any OS that runs on Intel. This approach is certainly slower than mapping Windows API calls to MacOS API calls, but I have had zero compatiblity issues with it.
I don't know if VGS works this way too, but since it is more compatible (and slower) than other PC playstation emulators, I wouldn't be suprised if it is emulating hardware.
- Isaac =)
IANAL: If Sony had taken this to court and had lost, it would have killed any future chance they had at suing Conectix (or however you spell it) on these grounds. Sony probably wasn't able to put their case together in time and as such dropped the case so they can regroup and sue Conectix at some future date. Money could not have been in the consideration, Sony has far more money than Conectix ever will. If they keep suing eventually Conectix will run out of money.
-matt
Like others have said, the PSX2 kinda makes the PSX-related lawsuits obsolete. But more importantly... I really doubt they lost that much money on the whole emulator deal. Granted, I don't support reverse-engineering and stealing proprietary routines (and don't bother to correct me, as I don't know/care about the details)...
Honestly... do you know anyone who decided to buy the emulator over the "real" unit? Maybe you do, but I, for one, don't. If you're going to spend $30-$50 on an emulator, you might as well go spend $89 at your local Target/Wal-mart and get the darn unit - no compatibility issues, etc... Most of the folks who have the emulator already have the PSX, and they still buy all the games.
So... considering they weren't making (much) money off of the unit sales anyway, and most of their profit probably came off of game sales... I think it makes perfect (financial) sense that they abandon this lawsuit...
Then again, I have to think... if they don't want this to happen again with the PSX2, why not win this lawsuit and set a precedent? Hmm.. maybe they thought they couldn't win this one? Anyone have any further insights?
Posted by 11223:
Did I see something a while ago about a port of this program to Linux? Will there ever be one?
Slashdot users run ps2 games under an emulator under wine under vmware, just for the sheer thrill of it all! :-)
Of course, it takes ten seconds to update when you hit a key, but so what...
Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
So, this wasn't a victory at all, it's an illustration of some of the more questionable aspects of the legal system. Apparently, Sony can keep trying until the get the lawsuit right, and force Connectix to waste more and more time and legal expenses on it. Imagine you were being sued and the company bringing the lawsuit could just file it again and again.
Sssh.. We don't want anyone else to know.. :)
Don't forget, this isn't the only PlayStation emulator out there -- bleem! has been around for a while.. wasn't Sony suing them as well? Or was that just to prevent it's release?
So, Sony has made an emulator for PSX. If Sony won the lawsuit and forbade Connectix from writing an emulator, then can Sony legally write an emulator for the PS2? I know this sounds silly, but can anybody dispute this?
The VGS was originally a Macintosh product, and I think most people on slashdot will agree that macs are not necessarily the domain of the tech savvy. Besides, these products (VGS, Bleem) come in shiney boxes promissing big things outside of just emulation (Bleem's hardware acceleration, for instance and things like saved states) make them viable products. We're not talking about PSEmu or Psyke where you have to jump through flaming hoops just to get the images to boot. I think Sony realized that it probably doesn't want to waste any more time with this since they'll still be making money off of games. Besides, no one has emulated a PS2 yet and since its so revolutionary probably won't.
OK, so I've got my G4 enterprise server running Mac-on-Linux with the RealPC emu and the lilo Win/Linux running Wine on VMWare in the Linux partition, in which I'm running VGS.
But wouldn't this be more useful as a Beowulf cluster?
Will in Seattle
I just got a cool idea which is somewhat off topic. Game console manufaturers sell their hardware at a loss! remember the i-opener? They sold at a loss. Has anyone thought of scrapping the hardware from one of these bad-boys and throwing an OS like Linux or *BSD on it? Now that would be a kick-ass machine. If not, you could probably just find some way to use them as graphics cards.
Information wants Coq
WHere can I find an emulator? I have a used cartridge of caveman games in my trunk, but never owned a nintendo. The friend I meeant for ruined it before I could deliver it :(
Hmm, then I need to read the rom in the cartridge, too . . .
Notice from the press release, they note "We recognize Sony may still attempt to bring these claims back before the court at a later date..."
Also note this occured 1 day before they were set to present their motion to dismiss (they being connectix). To me, it sounds like Sony is suing, causing trouble, then dropping the case before there's a chance for resolution. In other words, they're grinding on them without ever allowing the court to actually settle the issue, costing Connectix money and making people question the viability of the product, just using money on lawyers to make trouble. Maybe connectix should have had the right to seek a summary judgement on the matter to prevent such abuse. (or at least a right to continue a day and have their motion heard)
The way I see it, a PlayStation emulator isn't all that harmful to Sony -- after all, as lots of people are quick to point out, Sony doesn't make any money selling their hardware. Often, they'll sell it for a loss and make their money on royalties for their games. (They get a pretty hefty chunk of change on every PSX game sold.) If they can make money selling games without having to take a loss on the hardware, they'll probably be pretty happy.
The biggest drawback for Sony that I can see is that a game running on the Sony emulator (in my experience anyway) isn't as good as when it runs on normal PSX hardware. I suppose that someone who had never seen a PlayStation before and tried playing Soul Blade on their Bleem emulator might think, "Boy, Playstation games aren't all that good."
Another more dangerous (but perhaps less likely) potential problem is the fact that maybe these console companies could steal each other's publishing deals. Suppose to make Tunnel Raider V for the PSX, it'll cost me $5/game in royalties for Sony. Suppose Sega offers me a better deal -- say, $3/game -- to make the "Dreamcast Bleem Emulator" version of the game (which, totally by coincidence, happens to run on the Playstation as well). That could really screw over Sony. I don't think it's a particularly likely scenario, but it's possible...
Of course, most of this is a moot point now that most people are looking forward to the PSX2, which is probably the real reason why Sony isn't continuing their legal battle.
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"