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Censorware Flaws Shown To COPA Commission

At 11:30 AM PDT today, Bennett Haselton of Peacefire is scheduled to begin speaking to the COPA Commission. The occasion is their third and final hearing on the subject of blocking software, aka censorware. Our highly hilarious report on the second hearing may still be fresh in your memory; this time around, Bennett takes on the products FamilyClick, CyberSentinel, and SurfWatch.

The reports themselves make for the most interesting reading; I'll just summarize them here:

FamilyClick

The following sites were blocked on the "18 or older" setting, in other words, the software thinks they were too violent, pornographic, hateful, etc. to be seen even by adults:

and sodomy laws, pro-family protests of pornography, a defense of Wicca, etc.

Cyber Sentinel

The software's PR blurb says: "At the core of the technology is an advanced recognition engine developed by Security Software Systems engineers (patent pending). This proprietary engine is very fast, very low overhead, and is very accurate."

Blocked sites include:

  • CNN.com homepage (because of the story headline "Naples museum exposes public to ancient erotica");
  • searches for the term "COPA" on CNet, Wired, Time, and USAToday (because each results page had at least one filthy headline, such as "Back to court for Net porn law");
  • The American Family Association (the right-wing group pushing for censorware in libraries and schools, including those surrounding the Slashdot Geek Compound);
  • biographies of COPA Commission members Stephen Balkam and Donna Rice Hughes - because they both graduated "magna cum laude" (think about it);
  • and, my favorite, the list of papers presented at the COPA Commission!
SurfWatch

This was a more interesting test; Peacefire took a sampling of 1,000 domains from the beginning of the .com zone file, and tested which ones that SurfWatch blocked. (Yours truly wrote the one-liner perl script to find sites that respond to ping; for that, Bennett almost named me co-author before I talked him down from his caffeine high.)

SurfWatch claims that it "adds over 400 new sites to the database every day, while also removing sites that no longer exist on the Internet or that have changed content. Our site database is the most accurate and reliable filtering you can find."

Of the 147 domains blocked, most (96) were clearly "under construction" and were ignored for the test. Of the remaining 51 blocked domains, 42 of them, or 82%, were erroneous blocks.

The 42 supposedly pornographic sites include:

SurfWatch, for the record, is the software that the American Family Association (see above) and Family Research Council tried to force the Geek Compound's local library to install, earlier this year.

66 of 147 comments (clear)

  1. Well.... by FascDot+Killed+My+Pr · · Score: 5

    While I applaud Peacefire's (and Slashdot's) efforts to defeat censorware on a practical front, I'd like to (again) point out:

    1) Even if the software could implement one person's definition of "obscene" 100% accurately, it couldn't do so for more than one person simultaneously.
    2) Even if we all agreed that something was obscene, keeping someone (who is old enough) from looking at it is STILL WRONG.

    We don't want to move the censorware battle to a place where they keep getting more accurate and we keep pointing out the remaining flaws. We want to start discussing where it is appropriate to target censorware, if anywhere. For instance, I am totally against any kind of filtering in a library or on all ISPs (that is, I don't mind of ChristSoft wants to implement a filter for their members, but I don't want ALL ISPs to start doing it).

    Just imagine 5 years from now. FamilyClick is 100% accurate in filtering out those items they think are obscene. They come to Slashdot and say "happy now?" We say, "well, it's accurate---but we don't like it." Too late.
    --

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    1. Re:Well.... by nosilA · · Score: 2

      So it's bad reagrdless in a libaray or ISP to you - what about an office? I mean, on one hand you have no business viewing porn on company time, but on the other hand, this censorware blocks good sites too. The point that slashdot is trying to make is that if censorware is inevitable, it should at least be accurate. For example, cyberpatrol blocks babelfish.altavista.com. The company I work for is based in Germany (although English is the "official" company language) and I can't even translate german to english! I believe the reason for this is that babelfish allows you to view any site without having a chance to be blocked by a proxy, but that's still wrong.

      Making better censorware ensures that companies have better options, so they don't sensor the Sussex Summer Camp or babelfish.

      -Alison

    2. Re:Well.... by FascDot+Killed+My+Pr · · Score: 2

      "I mean, on one hand you have no business viewing porn on company time..."

      Actually, I disgree with this somewhat. Shocking, I realize, but follow me here.

      The company expends a certain amount of resources by having me here. Salary, benefits, cost to light my cube, cost to provide a certain amount of bandwidth, etc. If the amount of work I do doesn't exceed that cost by whatever arbitrary (but consistent) amount the company wants, then I should be fired. So if I am a particularly productive employee, it shouldn't matter if I spend 45 minutes in the morning viewing porn or taking drugs. I'm still a net benefit to the company.

      You might argue that I'm not "giving it my all". Well, no. But it's not the company's place to compare what I am doing to what I could be doing. It's the company's place to compare what I am doing to what they are giving me.

      Of course, this is somewhat tangential to the actual case of censorship.
      --

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    3. Re:Well.... by Phroggy · · Score: 2
      As for your first point about pleasing everybody, that's why censoring software usually gives you the option of, say, blocking violence and hate speech but not blocking nudity or profanity. If it worked, this kind of customizability would work for most people.

      Some material is not appropriate for children. In particular, material on Web sites that say "you must be 18/21 to enter." If a ten-year-old wants to use a computer in a library, that kind of material should be blocked (assuming we can do it accurately, which is currently not the case). If an 18-year-old is using the computer, they should be able to get to those pages, provided that the computer is set up somewhere where passing children aren't going to be watching.

      The same applies to a public school. Schools have rules about what is appropriate and what isn't; those same kinds of rules should apply to 'Net access as well.

      Businesses should get to choose what kinds of sites you can and can not visit through their Internet connection.

      ISPs, however, should leave the choice up to their customers.

      --

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
    4. Re:Well.... by nosilA · · Score: 2

      So if I am a particularly productive employee, it shouldn't matter if I spend 45 minutes in the morning viewing porn or taking drugs. I'm still a net benefit to the company.

      Somewhat true, and I certainly am more productive if I take short breaks during the day and do completely non-work-related things, but there is still the issues of sexual harassment. Unless you have an office with a door that closes, you run the risk of another employee seeing you with a naked chick on your screen and filing charges. And the comany is "negligent" if they do nothing to prevent this.

      So my company, where the President is the only one of 2000 employees who has a door on his office pretty much needs to have censorware. Although they have one computer that has a direct connection in the company library. But it still holds that if the company can somehow keep me from viewing pr0n without keeping me from translating press releases into English, I would be much happier.

      A little story (from my old job):

      I (the only female out of 7 students sharing this office) had a picture of a scantily clad woman as the background on my machine at work. My boss could care less, but he got yelled at by his boss when he walked into the office and saw this up there. She wasn't naked mind you, just wearing a bikini. My boss's response was pretty much "I don't care, but it might be a good idea if you took it down" it was stealing too much of my color map anyway, so I complied...

      -nosilA

  2. CensorWare by Daunting*Alligheri · · Score: 2
    ITs apparent they don't work to protect the moral sensibilities of the individuals they're supposedly protecting -- but rather they censor according to the company's agenda.. THis has been openly admitted by at least cyberpatrol and probably is very similar with many others.

    Why people would think its anythign else is beyond me. Every time I read these articles I tend to shiver, and then sigh. Shiver because this stuff is popular, and sigh because most people are clueless about the true motives.

    You don't want your kid looking at smut? Turn off MTV. You don't want your daughter becoming a devil worshiper? Try instilling a religion You don't want your son smoking pot? Teach him what it does to you.

    Something is seriously wrong when you allow technology to be the parent. Nuff said.

    --
    Witty quotes suck.
    1. Re:Censorware by radja · · Score: 2

      it's harder to sneak a book out the library than it is to surf to a porn page unnoticed. At least here in the Netherlands all books rented out pass the hands of a librarian.

      //rdj

      --

      No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
      --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
    2. Re:Censorware by anticypher · · Score: 2

      You have a very intelligent library system. This is the way all public access should be. Everyone over 18 (or 16 in real countries :) should have the access they want, filtered or raw. If you can't find something with the filters on, switch them off and try again.

      All the minors should need permission to make that decision. And once a parent lets their kid have unlimited internet access, then they shouldn't complain about dog kennel sites using the word "bitches"

      the AC

      --
      Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
  3. Censorware by VAXGeek · · Score: 5

    Personally, I like the way the library in my town handles it. If you are below the age of 18 and you have a library card, on the back it specifies whether you are allowed to use the computers or not. Under that, it has two boxes that you can check off. One for censorware, and one for unrestricted access. This way, it is your parent's choice, and NOT Big Brother's choice whether you see the internet in its full glory. IIRC, most of the children have it enabled, so this shows you that most parents want it on anyway, for fear of their precious children seeing something naughty, like BREAST cancer.
    ------------
    a funny comment: 1 karma
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    a good old-fashioned flame: priceless

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  4. Re:What about Slashdot? by TheGreek · · Score: 2
    Not at all.

    Happily reading Slashdot behind SurfWatch.

  5. The Right Way by TBHiX · · Score: 2

    If I'm afraid that any potential kids/dependents of mine might see something online that I would consider inappropriate, relying on any flavour of RoboBlock is not the way I want to go. Instead, I'd rather set up a logging facility on my browser. I'd make it clear to them that "my computer, my rules." If I find that they spent a half hour on feelmytits.com (fictional example - I hope), they're going to be confronted about it. In other words, active parenting instead of relying on external morality.

    When I worked security, locking the doors wasn't our main job; the employees could do that and it wouldn't prevent determined criminals. Our job was to detect intrusion, to deter it if possible, and to report it after the fact. Not a bad strategy in this situation either, I think.

    I have some questions, though. Is there an application for home browser logging of this variety? In reference to other messages here suggesting a consensus-based rating system, do you think an ability to cross-reference a log with such a list (to spot those non-obvious domains) might be useful? And finally, any refinements of this strategy to suggest?

    Thanks for your time.

    -TBHiX-
    Have an amoral geek come down on your head like the Fist of God, all for the low low cost of one spam message! ;)

    1. Re:The Right Way by PigleT · · Score: 3

      Oh, well said :) Exactly the right approach, educate don't legislate, or something like that.

      "Is there an application for home browser logging of this variety?"

      Set up a decent LAN with no direct web access from their machines (ie they don't have masquerading on port 80) and/or use a transparent web proxy. That way you can just examine your squid logs and because of the networking you're forcing all your folks to use the proxy so you don't miss anything.
      ~Tim
      --
      .|` Clouds cross the black moonlight,

      --
      ~Tim
      --
      .|` Clouds cross the black moonlight,
      Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
  6. Wow, software that doesn't work perfectly! by update() · · Score: 3

    Time for another sneering article about how filterware blocks (doesn't block) some sites that Jamie and Michael feel it shouldn't (should) get. And decalrations that since it didn't work the way they think it should, such software obviously could never be of value.

    Uh, yeah. I got a 404 error a few minutes ago -- clearly these so-called "web servers" are a waste of everyone's time. And those idiots in Congress want to spend money on giving schools Internet access!

    Face it, what Peacefire and the YRO crew are opposed to is the possibility that anyone could sit down at any computer and be prevented from accessing anything. If that's what they think, fine. But say that instead of, "Look! A chicken breast recipe is blocked! What a bunch of morons!"

    The fact is that filterware is going to be used. No matter how many (+5 insightful) posts we get declaring "When I have kids, I"ll let them view all the porn they want." there is simply no way that some schools and libraries (and parents) aren't going to use filters. And when those filters suck, and can't be configured to support what parents think is or isn't appropriate for their children, the tech community will have its own self-absorbtion and smugness to blame.

    1. Re:Wow, software that doesn't work perfectly! by CIHMaster · · Score: 2

      What's wrong with filtering software that it is more often WRONG than not. Their claims have often been proven to be outrageous, if not totally wrong.

      Uh, yeah. I got a 404 error a few minutes ago -- clearly these so-called "web servers" are a waste of everyone's time.

      Unlike censorware, webservers do their job 90% of the time. A 404 error is the worst example you could have used, because that's a webmaster's fault, not the software.

      Face it, what Peacefire and the YRO crew are opposed to is the possibility that anyone could sit down at any computer and be prevented from accessing anything. If that's what they think, fine. But say that instead of, "Look! A chicken breast recipe is blocked! What a bunch of morons!"

      They are saying that. And they're pointing out the utter crappiness of the software by showing that IT BLOCKS THE VERY ORGANIZATIONS WHO DEMAND IT'S USE, among other valuable informational resources.

      The fact is that filterware is going to be used.

      WE CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN. The day that you just accept the fact that "YOU WILL BE CENSORED, FOR YOUR OWN GOOD" is the day that they can say "YOU WILL DO AS WE SAY, BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU."

      No matter how many (+5 insightful) posts we get declaring "When I have kids, I"ll let them view all the porn they want."

      No one says that. They say that as parents, THEY themselves will be responsible for what their children see. They won't simply use iron fist control, they'll make reasons, they'll discuss it, and they'll do it BY THEMSELVES for THEIR children. Parents can use filters all they want. Libraries should never be forced (IMO, should never be permitted) to use bad, innacurate, filtering software.

      And when those filters suck, and can't be configured to support what parents think is or isn't appropriate for their children, the tech community will have its own self-absorbtion and smugness to blame.

      The filters suck. They're not very configurable now. And the only people we will have to blame is ourselves for letting their use become mandatory.

      Censorship is bad. In libraries it's worse, in my opinion, it's as bad as book burning.

    2. Re:Wow, software that doesn't work perfectly! by Benwick · · Score: 2

      I just wanted someone to think I was insightful! *sniff*

      Actually I think I will let my kids view all the porn they want. Censorship just gives kids complexes about sex. Ain't nothin' wrong with sex, damnit.

      Now that's insightful!

    3. Re:Wow, software that doesn't work perfectly! by Borealis · · Score: 2

      Nice troll, but you're missing the point.

      Filterware doesn't work. It doesn't block most porn and it does block stuff that isn't porn. And yet, even with the obvious information that it just plain doesn't work, our government (or parts of it anyway) want to MANDATE it for public institutions and often for adult use. While the loss of a certain chicken recipe is hardly going to convert us to a dictatorship, censorship is a slippery slope. Already many of these censorware sites block www.peacefire.org simply because they discuss the flaws of the programs and there is currently no way to force them to remove politically blocked sites from their blocking lists.

      Censorware is used by these political groups to try and mandate a philosophy or religion that many of us feel is inappropriate for our government to mandate. While you may be comfy with this notion, that is your perogative, but the constitution is fairly clear on censorship based on religious criteria.

      I for one do not wish to live in a nation where information on sex and drugs cannot be found simply because some group has decided that my innocence would be shattered by viewing it.

      Frankly, anything that censors what I see without my consent is in my eyes an abomination. I have never had too much information to help me decide how to live my life. Too little information, however, has often bitten me. If the cost to prevent this is to also allow my son to have more information than I might like then so be it. I doubt a few nekkid pictures will cause any lasting damage to my son's fragile psyche, but not knowing when a drug combination is dangerous might kill him.

      --
      Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
  7. Censor slashdot? Nah by MostlyHarmless · · Score: 2

    I was thinking of posting a comment containing a few selected words that would cause /. to be censored by all of these sites -- but I decided not to. To those of you who want to do so, don't.

    Why?

    Because you can go much, much further.

    In every online bulletin board you can find, add to you, add a few selected keywords and a link to a site explaining what the point of this is. That site, for whomever feels like putting it up, should contain a succinct description of what our plan is (put keywords into enough web pages that everything is blocked, showing the true usefulness of censorware) plus links to the EFF blue ribbon campaign, peacefire.org, censorware.org, and a brief description of why censorware is bad.

    Don't bother with slashdot -- it's just one of those "hacker sites", after all. And I mean hacker the way the general public uses hacker. Hit the big sites. Hit ZDNet. If Disney has talkbacks, hit them hard. Everywhere you post, put that in your signature and watch the success rate of censorware plummet.
    --

    --
    Friends don't let friends misuse the subjunctive.
    1. Re:Censor slashdot? Nah by jehreg · · Score: 2
      OK, on the same vein of thought:
      Many crackers out there deface web sites. I propose to them to, instead, change the META tags of the sites they crack to include naughty words. Most web admins won't notice, and most readers won't look at the page source.
      Do Yahoo, and Ebay first...

  8. Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by celestical · · Score: 5

    Can we not implement a freenet type decentralized, community based voting mechanism for web sites. This way the majority of the net users would vote on how a site is classified rather than a corporation... C.

    1. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by Eccles · · Score: 2

      You don't want one mechanism, you want many. You don't want one list, you want many. Moreover, censorship or no, you generally don't want the same sites for a five year old versus a 15 year old. If a 10 year old wants information about eyes, a JAMA report on the latest advances in cornea reattachment probably isn't what they want.

      So ideally, what you want is many of these lists, created by organizations that at least some people trust. A parent giving their child internet permission could then select "Consumer's Union sites for 10 and under", "Jerry Falwell's favorites", or whatever lists appeal to *them.* But no one gets to choose for someone else's child.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    2. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by MrEd · · Score: 2

      I don't trust the general population to decide what is and is not appropriate.

      --

      Wah!

    3. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by Yossi · · Score: 2

      I think that the big problem with having a large scale /. type of moderating system is that it will require people to visit or at the very least reveiw the very sites they are trying to avoid.

      This will be good for some people who will see it as being able to have thier cake and eat it too, because they will be able to visit those sites but only for "moderation" purposes. The rest will simply not do it, leaving less than a random, shall we say, population doing the moderating.

      "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I won't listen."

      --
      "Just because I don't care doesn't mean I won't listen"
    4. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by Eimi+Metamorphoumai · · Score: 2

      Depends on how it's done. If you intergrate it with the web browser properly, it might not be that bad. Have a "Dear God, NO!" button that backs you out of a domain and simultaneously marks it as distasteful. Good for if you happen to click a link to goatse.cx.

      --

      Visit me on #weirdness on the Galaxynet.

    5. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by technos · · Score: 3

      All we need to do is collect a copy of each /. users pr0n bookmarks, and blackhole them. 100,000 horny geeks can't have missed too many pr0n sites!

      --
      .sig: Now legally binding!
    6. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by John+Jorsett · · Score: 3

      I don't trust the general population to decide what is and is not appropriate.

      You only need to look at who gets sent to Washington to realize the truth of this statement.

    7. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by generic-man · · Score: 3

      Seeing as how trolls affect Slashdot discussions (assuming you browse at -1) I don't think this would necessarily be a good idea. Some wacko ultra-conservative or ultra-liberal leader could urge thousands of people to vote a certain way on certain sites. Not to mention the fact that if the trolls had their way, goatse.cx would be rated as the most family-friendly site on the Internet. :)

      Of course, we could always vote on the voters to establish a trust metric. Then we would have to vote on those votes to see if they were valid, and so forth and so on.

      --
      For more information, click here.
    8. Re:Slashdot type community moderated effort ? by jreilly · · Score: 2
      The problem is that you still have other forcing their morals and beliefs on you. It's a step up from corporations, but not that great. And you'd have to establish guidelines for impartial grading of websites, try to get people to follow them...

      It just wouldn't work

      --

      Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose
  9. Hard To Believe by pianoman113 · · Score: 2

    It is hard to believe that so many slashdoters miss the point of censorware. Censorware was never intended to be used in public settings, such as libraries, but in private homes. Parents have every right to protect their children from that which they deem unacceptable; they should be given an effective tool that can facilitate this. One thing I find unfortunate is that no one mentions RSCAi ratings. This was a system of page ratings coded into the page. The browser (IE at least) then parsed out that line of code and determined if the page was permitted based on selections by the administrator to determine what was acceptable and what was not. It is truly a shame that this never caught on, it was a method of ratings that really worked.

    --

    Free as in speech, free as in beer, or free as in lunch?
  10. Re:Before you jump all over 'Censorware'.. by Cy+Guy · · Score: 2

    I took a look at Camp Sussex and other than the name of the camp itself, which you think would also cause problems for 1000's of British sites, the only thing I could find that possibly trigger a filter was in the source.

    On the main page of the site, there is a picture of 3 girls at the camp, the filename for the picture is girls1.jpg this seems like pretty weak evidence to block the site on though.

    There is also the possibility that the server hosting the camp's website also hosts a pr0n site and that the camp is blocked because of its IP address.


    Help

  11. Re:Time for lawsuits by Ross+C.+Brackett · · Score: 2

    I agree totally. I've said it once, I've said it a million times, the thought that a judge could do a better job of setting Internet policy than you or me is absurd.

  12. What I'd love to see... by AstynaxX · · Score: 4

    Porn sites that use normally innocent and innocuous words to describe their business, and therefore get all sites with those now naughty words banned...

    "mom, why can't I get to www.disney.com?"
    'Well hon, I guess its all the 'Mickey Mousing' going on there'

    -={(Astynax)}=-

    --
    -={(Astynax)}=-
    "Darkness beyond Twilight"
  13. no, please make the .sex domain. by British · · Score: 2

    Let's face it, there are a billion ad-banner flooded porn sites out on the net. Practically all of these are just there to show you naked girls and grab your credit card number. Many of them do dirty tricks such as slightly-misspelled domain names.

    For god's sake let them have their own TLD like they were some sort of country.

    And if there happens to be nudity on a few non .sex sites(paintings, etc), judge on a case-by-case basis. Obviously, the Venus De Milo isn't smut.

    1. Re:no, please make the .sex domain. by Shadowlion · · Score: 2

      Haven't we already run afoul of that, though? Don't physical porn shops have to obey special zoning laws about where they can be? Don't they have restrictions as to what hours they can be open? Or that they can't show their wares in the window (in fact, most of the porn shops I've seen have all of the windows covered up completely, so that you can't tell it's a porn shop unless you peek inside).

      Given the existing restrictions on real-world porn shops, I think a case can be made that putting them in a .sex TLD is simply like a special zoning permit and/or brown-paper-bagging the front windows.

      I don't really agree with it, but I think a reasonable case can be made.

    2. Re:no, please make the .sex domain. by Daunting*Alligheri · · Score: 2
      Obviously, the Venus De Milo isn't smut.

      I love these debates. First off.. isn't smut to you -- but it might be smut to concerned parents not wishing their young children to see naked women. CAse in point. The Poseidon Adventure where a local christian home schooling group 'clothed' the naked Poseidon that was standing near a convention center they were attending. The main quote -- and principal fact we must remember here is.. "What is art in one person's eye is not art in another's,".

      If this is deemed offensive, what makes you think other art that incorporates nudity or perhaps other potentially questionable content wont' be silenced? How do we know the Venus DeMilo won't be categorized in the .sex TLD?

      --
      Witty quotes suck.
  14. Re:Trip to Thailand by MrEd · · Score: 2
    mmM, taiwanese restaurants are good.... I personally like eating at the Pho'King Bich, or perhaps Pho'Bich Nga, both to be found in sunny Vancouver, B.C.

    Fun with languages!

    --

    Wah!

  15. Re:Before you jump all over 'Censorware'.. by weave · · Score: 2
    I took a look at Camp Sussex and other than the name of the camp itself, which you think would also cause problems for 1000's of British sites...

    Two years ago I gave a talk to a bunch of two-year college marketing folks (NCMPR) and one of them asked me how to get their site unblocked from these services.

    Their college's name? Middlesex Community College

    I had a hard time believing (at the time) that they could have been blocked just cause the word "sex" is in their name. I figured there had to be something else (like a student's home page or something) doing this.

    Now I have to worry about my own college, because we have a campus located in Sussex County, Delaware. Heaven's forbid if we put up a page that describes the location of the campus...

    What I don't understand is the amount of people who get upset and threaten to sue about being on the RBL list, a list that every site is manually dealt with and has instructions for how to get off of it, yet there are no cries from both near and far about this censorware crap.

  16. Re:Censorware == good business to be in, nowadays by CIHMaster · · Score: 2

    It's getting tougher to find an office or school who isn't wired to the net. But the way our society works, companies, with little exception, cannot afford to let people run around wild on the net.

    If one guy's voting on the Tits of the Week (towview.com), he's creating a potentially "hostile" work environment for which the company can be responsible. And that means big bucks.


    That's controlling corporate resources, nowhere near as bad as forcing a library to do what most have fought so strongly against.

    I think most of us hate the idea of censorship.. but it's a reality we can't ignore.

    No it's not. We hate it, and therefore we must fight it. Just giving in is the WORST thing you can do because it means you're willing to let yourself be CONTROLLED by those who think that THEY KNOW BEST FOR YOU.

    I guess my point is to think about investing in some of these companies, like Websense (on the Nasdaq), even if their software is so shitty and it pisses you off.

    NO. We should fight them to the point that they no longer have any business. We should not support them at all. One thing ethics tells you is that YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THOSE YOU DISLIKE. In my case, that's Rambus and any company that creates Censorware.

    Instead, why not spend that money you'd waste on censorware companies, and help fund the ACLU and the EFF, the primary organizations that help protect our rights?

  17. Re:Ooohhhhhhhhh by MrEd · · Score: 2

    Her name was Donna, she was an author, / She's been on daytime TV, got a shiny B.Sc. / She wants to censor - all of the porno / But being the EiE VP, that was not enough for she / She had recieved a sign, to protect kids on-line / With a congressional appointment, who could ask - for - more - 'cause the COPA, ... (etc)

    --

    Wah!

  18. Re:TLD by B1 · · Score: 2

    Of course, that's assuming we can all agree on what does and does not constitute a porn site.

    Sure, some of the sites are fairly obvious (to us) as porn sites, but what about the grey areas? Does the sexual content have to be "pornographic", or is mere nudity enough to require a .sex TLD? Does it depend on how much nudity, or what kind is depicted? What about sites that are more suggestive than photographic? What about Cosmopolitan magazine? Playboy? Sex advice columns? Sites run by homosexual support groups?

    My point is that there are sites which you and I might not consider to be obscene, sexual or pornographic, but others would.

    Basically, this shifts the filtering process from software and into the name registration system. Requiring all porn sites to use a .sex TLD would make it easy to write an anti-porn filter, but deciding which sites should be moved (exiled?) into the new .sex TLD would be a nightmare.

  19. Common sense? by nahtanoj · · Score: 2

    I would maintain that probably the best thing any parent could do is instill in their child a healthy attitude towards sex. Another thing would be to monitor their on-line activities until they are either responsible or of a certain age.

    It amazes me that these people forget that the first line of defense starts out in the homes, with the parents. A kid who is aware of sex and what it is, but realizes that he is not ready for it will not go looking for porn and will stay away from sites dealing with it.

    But for those who are for censorship online: You cannot force someone to be good. They must want to be good.

    Ciao

    nahtanoj

  20. Censorware is not pure evil by dirk · · Score: 2

    I think what everyone seems to be forgetting is that people have a right to censor. Everyone seems to think all censorware is bad, and that everyone on earth should be able to see anything anytime they want, but if I want to install SurfWatch on my computer at home, I have the right to do so. If someone wants to install Net Nanny on their computer so their kid doesn't look at porn, or hate groups, or whatever they don't agree with, they have that right. Businesses have a right to install it to keep the employees from surfing the web and not working. There are a lot of uses that you may not agree with, but are perfectly reasonable.

    And, while they may not be 100% accurate (and depending on which ones you pick they are FAR less accurate) they do what they are supposed to do, which is help to keep kids (or whoever) away from things they shouldn't be looking at. I think they should have to reveal that they have 10% fake blocks (or whatever it is) but that doesn't mean they can't be used for anything. If they are used intelligently they could be a great tool (especially the one(s) with open block lists). There aren't evil anymore than DeCSS is evil because it can be used to do bad things. It's all in how you use it.

    --

    "Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
    1. Re:Censorware is not pure evil by jheinen · · Score: 2

      When a public institution such as a library tries to use such censorware, it is evil.

      -Vercingetorix

      --
      -Vercingetorix
      "Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
  21. Re:Before you jump all over 'Censorware'.. by HerrNewton · · Score: 2

    Roblimo better be careful with his limo service, then ;-)

    ----

    --

    ----
    Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
  22. Community moderation for selected communities by Fencepost · · Score: 4
    I was wondering not too long ago whether something like this could be done by libraries - kind of a cross between community moderation by library staff and the MAPS or ORBS lists. There could be both positive and negative rankings, and presumably would be a variety of categories.

    My mental image of the whole thing is a library with controlled and uncontrolled (or minimally-controlled) terminals, where uncontrolled terminals were only available to adults and controlled terminals were available to children. Uncontrolled terminals could access pretty much anything; controlled terminals could access sites already in the database with a ranking (within an category) above a level set by the local staff. Unlisted sites being accessed from the controlled terminals would be bounced to someone else for approval (I'm imaginging this going to someone supervising the children's area of the library). Alternatively, children's terminals could be in one of two modes: private but limited to approved sites or monitored but allowed pretty much uncontrolled access. That way if little Johnny is looking at porn/bomb howtos/drug recipes/whatever, someone shadowing the terminal can see it and either shut down access to the site or go have a talk with Johnny.

    On the moderation side, scoring would be a bit more complex than /.'s - moderators could be ranked, and moderators with higher ranks would have more influence on the scoring. Similarly, moderators with low ranks or moderators who abused the system could be given less influence and eventually dropped. By doing this, you could hopefully prevent "poisoning" of the system by people with agendas. Ranking could be handled by something similar to /.'s meta-moderation, but probably more automated. If librarian A puts a site in a category and librarians B, C, and D all disagree with that assesment, A's ranking (overall or within that category) goes down. There could even be a way for the general public to "nominate" sites for moderation with suggestions as to categories.

    The biggest headache with the whole thing, I think, would be who does the moderating, particularly early on - it's not like most libraries have people sitting around doing nothing who could just take it on as an additional duty. Unfortunately, it's not like there's a good base list out there that could be used as a seed.

    One interesting thing is that if such a system was developed it could have commercial potential as well - perhaps a version of it that did not include the ability to moderate, but which did allow the use of frequently-updated copies of the score files from libraries. By providing it to libraries for free, a company would both help libraries avoid community pushes for censorware with an agenda and gain access to a pool of site raters.

    Overall, there are all sorts of potential approaches to the problem of protecting people from disagreeable information, the problems are that there are so many different ideas of what's considered disagreeable and there are so many different ideas of who needs to be protected. On one end, you have people who believe that what's appropriate is no restrictions at all; on the other you have people who believe that all access should be tightly controlled; in between you have the bulk of the populace. In the US the general tendency is probably toward less control, but the tight-control people are noisy. Assuming that somewhere in the middle (limited control) is where things are going to end up, the problem becomes one of ensuring that the controls that go into place are not too restrictive, and that's where I think approaches like this could come in.

    Finally, before people jump all over this as advocating censorware, I lean toward the less-control end personally, but I think that there are some things that need to be discussed with children before they're exposed to them unsupervised. Children who think and parents who teach them to do so are the way to go, but in our current society I'm not sure how much we can depend on that.

    --
    fencepost
    just a little off
  23. Let the kids censor their parents' feed! by Morgaine · · Score: 4

    Shouldn't filtering be set up by kids so that their parents don't suffer the trauma of stumbling across naughty bits on the net?

    It's only parents that have trouble with alleged pornography. Under-age kids either don't understand what they're seeing, or they react with "Yuk!" or else they think it's hilarious (and you've got to admit, rubbing squishy bits together has to be the funniest thing on the planet), and older kids positively love it.

    And since kids understand the technology far better than their parents anyway and can easily bypass any block they like, it's really they that ought to be doing the censoring to protect their parents.

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
  24. Re:TLD (kind of long... sorry if I ramble) by nullnvoid · · Score: 5
    I don't believe that a .sex TLD would be desirable or effective. It raises too many troubling questions, such as:

    What bureaucrat(s) get to decide which companies are "porn" and which companies merely have "erotic" or "adult-themed" content? And if you find your site branded with the scarlet "S" and subsequently blocked, to whom may you appeal?

    Will sites dealing with homosexual lifestyles, erotic fiction, transcripts of Supreme Court nominee hearings, or pro-life/pro-choice advocacy be labelled with ".sex" because of their "adult" content? Does an online gallery of the collected works of Robert Mapplethorpe or David Hamilton warrant the imposition of a .sex domain?

    Defining pornography is pretty tricky. D.H. Lawrence, James Joyce, Allen Ginsburg, Henry Miller, and other notable 20th century writers all faced accusations of obscenity. I realize that you probably have a very clear idea of the kind of sites that should be given a .sex TLD, and I probably wouldn't disagree with any of your choices; but, unfortunately, I don't think we can depend on the same rational objectivity on the part of any board of de facto censors.

    As another poster has observed, it will be all-too-convenient to enforce a blanket ban on anything with a .sex TLD, and certain lobbying groups will doubtless see to it that such a ban is enforced on campuses and in libraries, or required of local ISPs in small and not-so-small towns across the nation. After all, what elected official wants to be on record with such an "anti-family" position as supporting access to those dirty .sex domains?

    Remember the rationale behind the NC-17 rating? The X rating wasn't intended to merely represent pornographic films. The Oscar-winning Midnight Cowboy, for example, was rated X. Eventually, however, X came to signify hardcore, and porn merchants used XXX as another marketing tool. The MPAA eventually adopted the NC-17 rating, ostensibly to allow serious filmmakers to release adult-themed films without being saddled with the same rating as Debbie Does Dallas.

    Unfortunately, NC-17 is the financial kiss of death. Why? "Family" newspapers mostly won't run advertisements for NC-17 movies. Most major theatre chains won't show them. Major studies routinely require R-rated films to be delivered (such as the case with Kubrick's last film).

    The same thing has happened with "Parental Advisory" labels on rock and rap albums, to a degree, but I won't go into that here; I'm afraid I might have rambled on too long, as it is.

    In a nutshell, requiring a new .sex domain opens an entirely familiar can of worms. Whether it's labeled Censorware, Parental Advisory labels, or the Hayes Commission, it's still the same can we've been opening since the Comstock Act.

  25. Re:You know... by 64.28.67.48 · · Score: 2

    But the problem is the closed lists. How would one know whether it is actually child porn or simply an idea that the list-maker would want banned? With a closed list, you can't know, and there is no outside review.

    --

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    The truth is out th- oh, wait, here it is...
  26. Re:Trip to Thailand by Th3+D0t · · Score: 3

    Maybe you'd be better off taking a bus trip instead?
    ---

    --
    I am the dot in slashdot.org
  27. Well never get rid of these things by Mr+Krinkle · · Score: 4

    If they ever made one that was perfect that would scare me more than these attempts at it. Especially since in everyone's mind different material is offensive. It also depends on the context as shown by many of these links. I was wasting time at my local library, where they said the didn't but I found they have Surfwatch happily installed. My roommate and myself got into an argument at work about some irelevant point with Hitler so I went to look up Hitler and try and find info. (I dont remember what I was looking for exactly) But the only sites I could get to were useless. Most of them just history about how the allies won the war. All the sites that mentioned his beliefs were blocked. I finally cliked on a neonazi page that was strict hatred and very insulting and it allowed that. I found it so amusing that I called the librarian over to show her and she took offence and asked me to leave if I was going to look at information like that. I told her my situation and she said I was looking wrong and she would find it. She quickly ran into the same problem, and gave me this solution. Well if it is important you should get it out of a book, the internet is usually wrong anyway. I left think of sour grapes. Just my ramblings.

    --
    I am 31337 or something.
  28. Censorship bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3

    All censorware is inherently flawed, in that it "censors". The writers of the constitution knew that if censorship of ANY level was allowed, then it would allow a gradual creeping of more and more censorship until any oposing opinion was banned. Dispite the best of intentions, this type of software could push us towards this state of affairs.

    It is quite clearly dangerous, and to protect the rights of all Americans, it should be banned. At the moment, only some sites are restricted, but what if the next version "protects" people from sites that advocate other "dangerous" ideas like free software. Somehow, I don't think the people who write these programs would worry too much if people can't access sites about Linix.

  29. Let's not forget one thing .. by Eloquence · · Score: 4
    This is not just about accidental cases of sometimes funny overblocking. The companies that sell censorware usually encrypt their filter lists so that nobody can see what is actually censored. And some of this companies, like Focus on the Family, have a clearly conservative agenda. We also know that nearly all censorware packages, for example, have been blocking Peacefire's website in the past or are still blocking it, and have been blocking gay and women's right organizations directly via URL filters (not via keyword filters), so they knew what they were doing.

    We're talking about absolute control here. Right now, the Internet is not as important as TV, but it will be much more important in the near future, and if there's a single company (or an oligarchy of companies) that's in control of what children can see, without public scrutiny, they can do whatever they want. And they will probably get away with it.

    That's why the censorware issue is so extremely important, and that's why Mattel went after the guys who cracked the Cyber Petrol filter list. It's not because of accidental overblocking, it's because of the power of intentional censorship by conservative organizations. In schools and libraries, imagine that!

    --

    1. Re:Let's not forget one thing .. by e-gold · · Score: 2

      Not just conservative organizations (though they've obviously taken leadership in the problem at first, for various reasons). My Peacefire t-shirt of blocked links includes a link to "Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights" -- hardly a left-wing bunch I'd guess. :) Anyway, ultimately, anyone with a political agenda of any kind who controls tax dollars is likely to soon learn how alluring blacklist-control is, and will naturally want more of it.

      I used to have no objection to censorware as long as it wasn't tax funded, figuring (incorrectly) that parents would learn by experience how stupid it was, and the companies that made it and shamelessly lied about its abilities would go under like they should. I was wrong, though. All of these companies already knew that a market consisting of all-but-the-dimmest-parents is a losing proposition, and they ALL want tax money, every damned one of 'em.

      What I don't understand about the phenomenon (and no lawyer, not even the estimable Mr. Tyre, has explained this to my satisfaction) is why we don't see taxpayer-class-action type lawsuits for fraud and misrepresentation against these companies. I'd sign on, because (as always) I object to penny-one of my taxes going to this crap in libraries instead of books, etc. and I'd object even if the invariably-crappy software were somehow truthfully represented as effective and accurate at blocking "bad" sites, which it's obviously not & never has been. Seems like an open and shut case to me, and far more questionable cases get settled every day (I'd like a percentage of that legal fee if this works!). :^)

      Or maybe I'm missing something?
      JMR

      --
      Try e-gold - (contact me). I'm NOT e-
  30. Their Reply by GeekLife.com · · Score: 2

    I'm sure they would reply that the problem isn't *just* the people sitting at the computer terminals, but the people walking by that might get a glance at something horrific.

    The place I used to work explained that they had to strictly monitor every site you went to, not because you might look at something inappropriate, but because some passerby might and could then sue for sexual harrassment.
    -----

  31. Censorship bad, but filtering good! by SecurityGuy · · Score: 2
    I'm continually dismayed by the way so many here fundamentally misunderstand this issue.

    Censorship, the government declaring that you can't publish or read information on $SUBJECT, is bad. Adults have the inherent right and responsibility to make their own determinations on what information to expose themselves to.

    Filtering software is ENTIRELY different. As a parent, I want some assurance that my tax dollars aren't supplying my children with porn through the library or public school system. You are not being censored! If you want to download porn, go ahead. Just don't think the government, through schools and libraries, has any obligation to assist.

    It also seems that you have a choice. One of the following will happen:

    1. Filtering in all forms will fail and those who don't want to be exposed or shouldn't be will withdraw from the internet.
    2. Filtering will succeed somehow as software technology improves to make it possible.
    3. A reactionary legislature will make it illegal.
    The first isn't bloody likely with our ludicrous demand that every school be wired. (WHY?)

    Most here are arguing vehemently against the second.

    You're left with the third, which is what you're going to get. Real censorship, not the voluntary filtering which is being offered now. Be careful what you wish for. You *WILL* get it.

  32. Censorware == good business to be in, nowadays by drougie · · Score: 2

    It's getting tougher to find an office or school who isn't wired to the net. But the way our society works, companies, with little exception, cannot afford to let people run around wild on the net.

    If one guy's voting on the Tits of the Week (towview.com), he's creating a potentially "hostile" work environment for which the company can be responsible. And that means big bucks.

    I think most of us hate the idea of censorship.. but it's a reality we can't ignore. I guess my point is to think about investing in some of these companies, like Websense (on the Nasdaq), even if their software is so shitty and it pisses you off.

    True.

  33. Re:Make people use them.... before forcing others. by icqqm · · Score: 2

    They are made to use it first. The problem is that in this day and age people trust press releases for whatever reason. They look at "patent-pending technology" and they believe it can't fail. They see a problem and are looking for a band-aid solution. Since these companies have their lobbyists in Washington and we don't, they're going to win.

  34. TLD by Ketzer · · Score: 3

    I still like the solution of creating a .sex (or whatever you want to call it) and requiring any porn companies in the US to house their domain there.

    It doesn't stop pages from companies in other countries, or illegal pages, but any veteran computer user can tell you that you can't really reliably censor the net. As soon as you make a smarter filter, they'll make craftier pages.

    The TLD provides a simple, cheap, effective solution for all law-abiding sites.

  35. Sad by Moridineas · · Score: 5

    I'm very very strongly against government censorship. However, I do believe it's a parent's right to control what kind of material their children get access to (or at least try). This control doesn't extend to schools and libraries. Libraries and schools I do not think should be censored ever. Make parents sign agreements before letting their kids use public internet if liability is the problem.

    This censorship software is clearly ridiculous, and seems like it has barely improved since the first versions were released. This only adds to the ridiculousness of the demands to censor public access.

    On an somewhat sad sidenote, the network administrator of my high school system is also totally against censorship and tracking of websites, but when upgrading servers last year had software installed which COULD do both (but didn't). Apparently he felt that given the attitude in the school system, it was only a matter of time before mandatory censorship and tracking would be the status quo.

    Scott

  36. Trip to Thailand by ch-chuck · · Score: 5

    I wanted to research a Trip to Thailand but the damn library keeps blocking any info about it!!

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  37. Time for lawsuits by dsplat · · Score: 3

    It is time for the owners of the blocked sites to sue. They should demand that their sites be reinstated immediately. They should demand a guarantee that their sites will never be blocked in the future.

    I feel certain that it will remain possible to trick the censorware in both directions for the foreseeable future. There will continue to be false negatives and false positives. The problem is that the image these companies are selling doesn't match with the fine print about the product reliability. And the actual performance has been proven to be even worse than that several times for some of them.

    --
    The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
  38. Err... Thai, not taiwanese. (nt) by MrEd · · Score: 2

    nt = no text

    --

    Wah!

  39. Re:TLDs - .SEX and .XXX by cqnn · · Score: 2

    I would still like to propose the creation of both .XXX and .SEX domains;
    but I disagree that any sites should be required to house thier domains there.

    Instead, the clearly pornographic sites (those that deem themselves to be
    of an sexual nature that would normally be subject to screening
    only by adults over the age of 18) should be encouraged to migrate their
    domains into the .XXX TLD category - at no additional fee for transfer.

    This will act both to allow the domain change without oversight by some
    faceless bureaucrat(s); and will give the porn-meisters a better way of
    focusing their marketing efforts to an audience that is both interested
    and able to pay for thier services. In addition AFAIK, the XXX can be
    internationally identified with a specific level of adult activity
    (aside from those who still count with Roman Numerals), whereas SEX
    is more ambiguous between different cultures, social groups,
    and educational levels.

    The .SEX domains then, can become open to areas of discussion on sexual
    health and education that may not in themselves be seen (by some groups)
    as pornographic. PlannedParenthood.sex, STD.sex, and even DrRuth.sex
    could become respected alternatives which can provide more in-depth advice
    for adults, while still allowing for both parental discretion, and providing
    an educational resource thru the standard .com pages.

    I realize there will still be opportunites for abuse, but I'd think that
    most web-promoters would be more likely to follow the path of least
    resistance to continuing success, than to try and buck a trend.

  40. So basically... by Chaos+Monkey · · Score: 3

    If a hacker was so inclined to be really sadistic, instead of physically blemishing a site, they could instead insert a few lines of html into home pages that include "offending" language. These censorware prog's would pick up on 'em, and block the user from getting into the site. Sounds like fun. Good thing I'm not a hacker. ;)

    --
    - I'm making a page dedicated to procrastinators! I'll let you know when I get started.
  41. Before you jump all over 'Censorware'.. by PopeAlien · · Score: 5
    .. I think we should all sit down and really THINK about how Surfwatch can protect our children..
    1. A-1 Dog grooming obviously has reference to 'bitches'..
    1. American Builders probably 'erect' things..
    1. Waterbeds Online -Thats just obvious isn't it..
    1. A-1 Diamond Limousine -Oh come on, who can spell 'limousine' anyways, this one is just ridiculous..
    1. Poxy Coat - Dont know what it is, but I fear it and it sounds dirty..
    1. A-Antiques - Antiques for A-holes -Ok, I admit I dont get this one either.


  42. What about Slashdot? by icqqm · · Score: 2

    Could someone check whether or not Slashdot (or more specifically this story) are also being banned? From the words and discussions, I would be surprised if it wasn't. But then again these companies do tend to surprise.

  43. Ooohhhhhhhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5

    at the COPA, COPA will ban ya, the software's a lot like Net Nanna. Oh the COPA, COPA will ban ya, porno and nazis will always get block-ied at the COPA, COPA will ban ya.