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More on Putting Linux On iPAQ
wishus writes: "The Compaq iPAQ is Compaq's PocketPC offering, with a 206 MHz Intel StrongARM. Microsoft beware, though, because there are now 2 different ways to put Linux on it - Compaq's own is at handhelds.org and the second, announced yesterday, is from Century Software. They are actually two very different means to the same end - Linux and X running on the iPAQ, complete with handwriting recognition." If only it had 802.11 wireless support, I'd be there.
I hate the idea of using Microsoft software based on a combination of their disregard for quality, security, and reliability; concern about questionable business practices; and concern about the dangers of software monoculture. Nothing blind about it.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
You're right, pricing isn't usually a concern when developing handheld devices. The biggest concern is having a robust operating system. Lemme know when I can exect a robust embedded operating system from your company, Zico, mmmkay?
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
The genie has granted your wish
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Word is that there will be one at LWE next week.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
No, the bar is fairly high: you have to pledge your soul to Bill. That's a cost I can't afford. Can you?
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Before you start bitching about getting ripped off
Who was complaining about getting ripped off? I don't have issue with companies making money. That isn't what my complaint is against Microsoft. My complaint is that they use unethical if not outright illegal practices to try to keep anyone else from making money.
And as I said, I really don't care that much if Compaq doesn't give me a refund for not taking Windows or charges me extra for pre-installing Linux instead, as long as they don't send any of my money to Microsoft.
In short, Compaq is willing to consider a Linux-specific iPaq model if their customers (read corporate purchasers, not ghetto slashbot bitchers) ask for it.
Corporate purchasers don't buy that many palmtops (at least not in the companies I've worked for -- and the place I worked prior to where I am now is a Fortune 100 company). Lots of people who work in the corporate world buy handhelds for themselves, but most companies won't spring for something like that, even though they buy many of those people laptops which are far more expensive.
At any rate, as I said before, if Compaq doesn't want to sell me an iPaq without Windows, I will either wait for the Yopy or just buy a Palm Pilot. How hard is it just to sell me the hardware without the software anyway?
(RTFA) Right now, there's no real applications.
Then they should be targeting people like me -- I'm a software developer...
It's just a dev platform where the kernel and X have stabilized. The Linux version is not yet a consumer product by any means.
I couldn't care less if its a 'consumer product' or not, I'm not, and I know I'm not, a typical consumer. Frankly I think that handhelds in general are still somewhat of a specialty market compared to the desktop or laptop market.
You can't. Compaq only has to pay a few bucks to Microsoft for each iPAQ, and it would be too expensive for them to mark you as not using Windows.
There will be a Linux iPAQ on shelves eventually. It's just too soon. Go ahead and buy an iPAQ -- the screen is unbelievably good.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Does your Handspring really have 3 weeks of battery life if you leave it on straight for 3 weeks? 100% on with backlight? I don't think so... The PocketPC's battery time is calculated as straight on. The Palm's is always calculated as "normal usage" being x number of minutes a day. I think its something like 5 minutes a day or something small like that - though my memory isn't very good on that number.
X Windows and Unix were never really designed for handheld computers. (Yeah, windows wasn't either, but Windows CE is only a little like regular Windows.)
WinCE has its share of problems, not the least of which is the fact that there's a fairly high bar to getting into developing for it. The simple fact that X's initial design wasn't for handhelds doesn't mean much. The iPAQ is a really powerful machine: more horsepower than the 5x86/133 I once used to run X.
Slashdot recently linked to my interview with Jim Gettys about the issues involved with porting X/Linux to the iPAQ. Considering he's one of the lead developers of X from 1986, I think his words have some weight.
At the moment, though, you're right: you wouldn't want to use Linux on an iPAQ for your PDA. Support is rough because they're still laying in the foundation. The long-term view, though, which is what Compaq is taking, is that with an open handheld (as they call the iPAQ) based on tools familiar to Linux developers, they'll have the groundwork for devices that hit the market with a massive developer base built in. No costs for proprietary development tools, a remarkable amount of experience, and the same sort of enthusiasm for development that's been a mark of the Linux/Free Software community to this point.
Even if the iPAQ doesn't succeed (it's sort of expensive at the moment), Linux handhelds are becoming a reality. The Yopy is based on Linux, and the new AgendaVR3 (which is a lot more like the Palm, only more powerful) is based on Linux. In general, in fact, Linux may succeed more as an embedded platform than a desktop platform. It's in the midst of taking off in that area now.
---
Michael Hall
Michael Hall
mph.puddingbowl.org
Go ahead and buy an iPAQ
I will either wait or just buy a Palm Pilot for now. As I said before, its not an issue of money, it is an issue of ethics. I just won't do business with Microsoft, no matter how little the amount is.
You could probably try to fight it if you read the EULA and conformed to all the legalese concerning NOT agreeing to the licence, but good luck to you.
It is not worth the effort. I will just wait until they come out with a Linux specific version and probably buy a Palm Pilot for now.
Sorry, that's the wrong iPAQ. Compaq has two products named the iPAQ (doh!): a legacy-free x86 desktop, and the PDA.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Digital Semiconductor was making the StrongArm processor. Compaq sold off Digital Semiconductor to Intel. Yes, this means that Intel is making both the Tulip DC21x4x and Intel 8255[789] Ethernet controllers, and the SA-110 and x86 processors. Compaq kept the Alpha processor, though.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Somehow it jsut strikes me as a bad idea to put linux on a computer that is "throwable".
My point being as much of a pain in the @$$ it is to install linux on a desktop, we might just see alot of these new things doing double duty as a frizbee.
Jainith
Red Frizbee with a hat picture going...going...gone, thrown out the window by the mad guy in the back row...
I read the article and the howto and other referenced material but they don't answer one question. Is it possible to put CE back on after you install linux? I love linux, use it the majority of the time on my home machine, but I am not sure that it is what I would be loading on my handheld. Speaking from experience myself and my friends who have palm pilots use it to keep a schedule and take notes and do basic things but important things. These things can be done on CE but I am not sure there is software on linux to do them as adequatly yet. Not to mention that CE comes with pocket word and excel, and the ability to change a bit of data in a spreadsheet on the fly to get some updated data is something that might come in REALLY handy. Also, CE is quite a bit more stable than any of the other windows counterparts, which isn't saying much but means that it should be reliable enough for day to day use. I guess the point of this entire thing is that if I had one I probably would put linux on it to just see what it ran like, but ONLY if I could go back to CE to do day to day work until some linux software could provide me with a comparable functionality. I find it strange that nowhere does it answer this obvious question...
Maybe this will convince the developers of the various GTK/Qt/Motif/etc. GUI programs to consider screen sizes smaller than 1024 x 768.
Jakob Neilsen's Alertbox column has been talking about the need to consider screen size on handhelds and WAP devices. He's talking primarily about Web applications, but it'll be true for any portable apps.
Developers for handhelds and devices with touch screens will also have to consider that users are more likely to click/tap widgets then drag/scroll them.
Jay (=
I'd love to have Python or Perl.
Get yourself a PocketPC -- Python, PocketC, Visual C++, VB, Scheme, REBOL, etc. Okay, so Perl is still being worked on. And FYI, if you're not quite ready to ditch your current handheld yet, someone's also working on a Perl port for the Palm, too. :)
Speaking of Python, why no Slashdot article about the new Python 1.6 beta 1 just released? Some of us have been waiting forever for an update, and it's just as newsworthy as the "New Kernel 2.3.32983-pre5-ac out!" stories. :P
Cheers,
...PocketPC makers like Compaq have been unable to keep up with the demand for their devices.
Hey, Zico. I found something you might enjoy.
Here's a recent Cnet article with their latest flunky.
Here's an interesting exchange:
You mentioned the availability issue with the iPaq. The product has not been widely available, despite the fact that it launched in April. Now Compaq is saying it may not be fully available until the fourth quarter. What happened?
The reason the supply is short is because the manufacturers didn't build enough devices. They recognize that now, and they're rushing as fast as they can to build more devices. Of course, because of their lead times in acquiring components, now it's taking them some time to go back and correct their forecasting mistakes.
Do you think the fact that they were not making enough devices indicates a lack of full commitment to this market?
No, I don't really think it's any indication of lack of commitment. If there was any lack of commitment, it certainly would have disappeared at this point. Forecasting is an inexact science. We certainly expected more units to be sold. We're very excited about the product itself. And I think they've gone back and now it's sort of like I think we're right.
I like how this idiot tries to blame Compaq's reluctance to build CE devices on their "forecasting mistakes". Typical Microsoft attitude. I wonder whereever Compaq could have developed such an attitude about a Microsoft eMbedded (to use your gay spellling) operating system.
So what's it going to be, Zico? Are they realling selling like hotcakes or are the few dozen that were made selling?
Perhaps you can enlighten about the marketplace.
Mmmkay?
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
That's the same reasoning that failed to see why Vietnam would be hard for the US to conquer. Never underestimate dedicated rebels who are having fun.
-russ
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Right now, the only way to reflash is to run CELoader under (you guessed it) Windows CE (well, okay, Pocket Windows, but you get the idea). You don't need to run any other Windows software -- you can get CELoader onto your iPAQ using PPP to a Linux box. :)
-russ
p.s. I used to be waiting for a Yopy also, for the same reason. With every passing month, they back the Yopy delivery date off by two months. I handed over yopy.org to someone who cared, and bought myself an iPAQ. Didn't bother me a bit to use Windows to help destroy itself.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
X11 as well has a long history of use on embedded devices and low-end machines. The fact that it is so configurable and policy-free means that many applications can be moved from the desktop to a handheld simply by using a window manager adapted to the handheld.
And Linux is easy to program for. Windows CE is not even Win32 compatible, and it's a very stripped down environment.
I quote, from handhelds.org:
The Compaq 802.11b wireless PCMCIA card is working
Looks like you're buying one Taco!
Well, I've had a look at the presentation and it's pretty slick. It's the only handheld I've seen so far that makes me look at my HandSpring and go "hmmmm....". The big drawback is still the battery life - one day. Ouch. My Handspring goes for at least three weeks. But I'm impressed by the screen, and the ability to hook up both PC cards and CompactFlash. Sound is nice too.
And actually, the software on it (Windows CE) looks pretty good. They seem to have taken all the good stuff that Palm and Handspring did, and improved on it in many subtle and not-so subtle ways. The contact book, day planner, etc. all look nice.
As usual for Microsoft, by the third time around they often produce something usable. Of course this assumes that the software is actually stable... another thing about the Handspring is I've only gotten it to crash once, and that was while using HackMaster to rotate the screen with custom fonts in some third-party application...
So I have to ask? If the Windows software is stable, would putting Linux on this device improve it's usability, or is it just a neat hack to prove it could be done? I mean, yeah, it would be cool to have the command line and secure shell... but wouldn't you be better off with a good SSH-supporting terminal program just running under Windows?
I kind of think it's just one of those things that people do to show how l33t they are. And that's ok. If I had one, I might try Linux on it just for the boasting rights but after a few days I bet I would want the original software back.
X Windows and Unix were never really designed for handheld computers. (Yeah, windows wasn't either, but Windows CE is only a little like regular Windows.)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
Torrey Hoffman (Azog)
"HTML needs a rant tag" - Alan Cox
I'm just waiting for a system to come out that will break the "multiple handheld" platform. It seems that true breakthrough comes when these companies finally put together a system of making things work together. I want to be able to send a program from my Palm to the iPAQ. That's gonna be the truly needed breakthrough.
Actually it's been hard to compare handheld's straight ability because each has their own platform that doesn't give the ability to compare the speed with which it can do a given operation. For example, Windows CE takes X seconds to load, but there is nothing to compare it to on the Jornada's, just sort of the general impression.
My general impression, the Jornada's are crap with those Windows CE OS on them.
Various devices have been tested in the CF and PCMCIA expansion packs, including:
o The IBM 340 MB model DMDM-10340 works
o the Socket LP-E ethernet compact flash ethernet works
o The Toshiba 2GB PCM CIA disk works in the PCMCIA expansion pack
o The Compaq 802.11b wireless PCMCIA card is working.
Rob, looks like you missed this blurb on the handhelds.org 8/7/2000 update... Now you've got to buy one! =)
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
from microsoft's site:
How to Buy
Building and selling devices using Windows CE 3.0 requires two separate licenses from Microsoft.
A Platform Builder 3.0 licenseis required to buy and use Platform Builder 3.0, which is needed to create a customized Windows CE 3.0 image.
The Platform Builder license costs $3,000.
It appears that you have ignorantly supplied the FUD in this case.
Have a nice day.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
The Century software press release looks pretty darn interesting:
Century Software Embedded Technologies, a leader in open source applications technologies for embedded Linux, today announced the availability of a Linux-based windowing system and graphical development environment for the new Compaq iPAQ handheld computer.
[SNIP...]
The environment includes the well-known Microwindows graphical windowing system for embedded Linux, along with the recently introduced ViewML Internet browser, and the Fast Light Tool Kit (FLTK) applications framework. A stroke-based character-recognition technology, based on Scribble, provides the basis for handwriting recognition. The Microwindows graphical windowing system was chosen because of it's extremely compact size, and it's support of the ViewML browser.
One thing that I've been missing on my Palm III is a powerful, useful, on board development environment (PocketC just doesn't cut it for me...). I'd love to have Python or Perl on my handheld, as I frequently think of interesting problems that I could/would solve if I could write a quick script. If Century's system allows you to use a really small C environment with FLTK on board, that'd be worth having.
---------The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
wow, can you believe that? only $3,000 to create and sell a "specialized" version of CE. Know how much it costs to sell a specialized version of Linux?
$0.00
Not sure about postage and handling, but since you seem to be the expert in that arena, perhaps you can tell me.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
What I want to know is where I can buy an iPAQ H3600 without having to buy Windows?
It looks like an interesting little device, but I have no use for Windows, and I don't want any of my money going to Redmond. I really don't care as much if I save any money by getting Linux or no OS installed, I just don't want Microsoft to get any of my money. I might even be winning to pay more to get Linux pre-installed instead of Windows if I knew for sure Microsoft wasn't getting any royalties from my purchase.
Otherwise I am just going to go buy a Palm Pilot even though they aren't quite as nice hardware wise... I'd rather support Palm than Microsoft.
the reason is that you get a sort of moire pattern thing happening. Kinda like when you see computer monitors on TV/video, because of the differing refresh rates and all that, you can see the flickering, but not notice it when you're looking at the real thing. TH fuzziness is because the screen has been 'pixelated' twice, if you get what I mean.
Easy for you to say that when you don't have to back it up with anything.
Your cowardice says more than anything else.
This HOWTO explains how to install Linux on the IPAQ. Enjoy!
We use the Microwindows library which compiles to
300K or so, including true type fonts and a
Win32-like API, and writes directly to the frame
buffer (or optionally through X).
X is shrinking fast, but still needs a meg or two
more (plus all those runtime libraries), which
makes a big difference on smaller systems.
Also, check out our small open source browser at
http://www.viewml.com/
mark@censoft.com