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mduell writes: "Saw these three on the Technology front page at MSNBC.com. First off, This story on how GNOME Foundation takes aim at Microsoft. Secondly, this story about what Michael Dell thinks of Linux. Lastly, this story about Linux on mobile devices." Some other links that have been submitted: a reader submits pictures from the Expo, a Linux PDA is announced, and Michael Dell tries to figure out why he's selling overpriced Linux systems.
ZDNet has an article about the VR3 as well.
Among the more interesting tidbits, you can hook up to the VR3's RS232 serial port and telnet or ftp right into the PDA.
The article also has full technical specs and a picture of the PDA in its cradle.
M$ has deal with most of their manufacturers that they're paid per computer shipped - whether or not it has M$ installed. This makes it ard for anybody to move away from Windows. That's why if you buy from a vendor you pay more.
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
Took me a while to *find* their FAQ until I realized that multiline select box is masquerading as a list of links. Go figure...
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* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
Gawd how I hate this over-and-inappropriately-used word Solution:
;-)
Buy the NT box and plop Linux on top of it
Vote Naked 2000
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I wanted to see what dell would charge me for a laptop with linux on it. So i went to their "home/home office" site, and started to configure an Inspiron laptop. I got here when I found the link at the bottom to install Linux on this laptop. You will see that this link is broken. I noticed that about 6 weeks ago. I emailed dell about it, and they don't listen. They still havn't fixed it...
It would be interesting to know just where the savings is coming from; anyone got figures from Dell? Is it from possibly reduced R&D per unit value gained, despite that they're spending "the most" [sic] on Linux right now? Are they saving money from not having to buy MS licenses and products for these boxen? Shorter dev/production cycles? Support savings?
On a slightly related note, I wonder what the margins are for Dell Linux boxen; maybe they charge more because (among other reasons) they can charge more. After all, why would they argue with higher margins? :P
Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
Are you nuts, go check out pdabuzz, estamate price at 150, one fifty dollars. Yeah, the m100, visor solo price point.
/. tole me, "Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted." Taco, how hard is to make a repeat story filter first?
cy
(ps. my original title has 20 exclaimation points in it,
The question is not how much the computers cost, the question is why a machine with Windows costs less than the same machine with Linux? I don't buy the R&D costs argument - I think Dell is still paying MS the Windows tax for every machine sold, regardless if it had Windows on it or not.
I was talking to the agenda guys yesterday. Nice folks and I wish them well. However, I have one problem with their product. I don't want a desktop linux on my handheld. This actually seemed to be one of the selling points for these guys. "Watch, you can run an ls command. This thing even has inetd!" Yeah, so? Do I want to mess around with configuring lengthy text files on my handheld? Sorry. It's fine to have these things as part of the system, but the interface is going to have to change. Accessing the command prompt from a 2"x3" screen is not going to work, even with the chiclet keyboard they seemed to be selling as well. Do yourselves a favor, go check out PocketLinux. With as much praise as I'm heaping on these guys, you'd think they were paying me. Have no fear, I'm just an OpenSource Documentation guy. I just think the pocket linux guys kick ass.
My other computer is your Windows box
The Justice department investigated MS about five years ago because of this practice. They got MS to stop doing this, but accomplished little else to reign in the company.
I cut and pasted that from the announcement. 8MB RAM, 2MB Flash ROM (Flash ROM is a type of ROM which can be altered -- but alteration is much slower than RAM and there's a limit of about 100,000 alterations).
The VR3+ FAQ also mentioned the same 2MB Flash/4MB Flash number.
Dell's big push into the consumer market is a recent thing. Before 1998 the main focus of Dell's sales were in servers and workstations/desktops for small to medium businesses. Business sales still make up the majority of Dell's sales, so to say that consumer sales built the company, or made it strong, is incorrect.
"Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -George Bernard Shaw
There is no evidence this has ever happened in the Server market.
(At least 20% of servers still ship with Novell. It used to be much higher, around 70%.)
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
Hi, I've been working for Transvirtual on the PocketLinux stuff.
PocketLinux is a PDA operating system that we've been developing, based around Kaffe and an XML-based application framework.
We're announcing it at LWCE, even though I already demoed a bit of it at OLS. Even at this early stage, it's probably the best PDA OS for Linux handhelds I've seen yet.
At the show, we've been running it on the VTech Helio, and the Compaq iPaq.
We're actually selling the Helio's for $149 at the show, but it's really for developers only at this stage.
We've got a really wicked demo built for the iPaq, with themes, handwriting recognition, a notepad, article viewer, MP3 player, and even video! We've got a few Java games running too.
Unfortunately, the demo really only came together at the last minute, so the web pages haven't been updated, and we haven't posted the sources and images yet.
I'm going to try to get on that...
Other notable schwag included BSD devil horns, a couple beer glasses from some headhunter people, a couple martini glasses from the AMD party, a flashlight from HP, a stuffed penguin from IBM, some red light/flashy pins from various companies, a couple superballs (one flashy and one with a penguin imprisoned inside), a bunch of cds (including "sounds of slashdot"... so far, I've been afraid to listen) and a cd wallet.
JMC
Kind of like the fact that gnusucks.* is still available....
:)
Get 'em, boys!
.sig
Fellowship 9/11
The most likely reason was because they were at a LINUX expo. This thing is not being marketed as a linux users PDA, from the web page it looks as if it only syncs with Outlook. On the other hand, unlike the iPaq, it has some professionallay done PIM apps specifically for that size PDA. Besides, it uses X and the entire OS and all apps are open source. I bet the iPaq developers could just lift the work done on the agenda and make the more powerful iPaq actually useful as a PDA and keep linux on it + xmms+ram+color.
Off the developers site
You can check out the latest source code through anonymous (pserver) CVS: cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr login
cvs -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.agendacomputing.com:/cvsr oot/linuxvr co linux
Just press Enter for the password (leave it blank).
This creates a "linux" directory right under wherever you were when you did the checkout command.
This could probably be done in no time. The only thing I can think of is the resolution difference, but moving some widgets or something, perhaps adding a dock of some sort and a few things to take advantage of the more powerful iPaq. I'm thinking about buying one myself and getting to work on this...
Yup, I have a dying PDA for which nobody made apps and I can't get the SDK. At least with a Linux PDA I have a chance to make it do a few special things for me, or to keep up with new desktop apps to sync with.
Went home with no shirts,last year was better. Sorry LWCE was sort of a bust for me.BTW I do not judge a trade show by swag,It was a little to Corperate for me .
Reading the MSNBC article, it looks like the Gnome Foundation wants to create basically Windows all over again with the integrated web browser...why not just port windows and forget it..
*tap tap tap* this thing on?
hmnpf, /. doesn't allow pix to be posted, so, it's the one here:
http://www.ringworld.org/~dieman/lwce/pics/3/20000 815-set1/images/20000815-set1_36_640x480 .JPG
USER INTERFACE
CONNECTIVITY
BUILT-IN SOFTWARE Linux VR operating system Contacts, To-Do, Schedule, Notes, Calculator, Quicksync for Linux and Windows PC, Mail, Network, Terminal, Games, Bootloader, Utilities Backlit display for clear viewing in low light conditions
...
PRICING AND AVAILABILITY The Agenda VR3 will be available in October 2000. Pricing for the Agenda VR3 is expected to begin as low as $149 MSRP. Product availability, pricing and product specifications are subject to change without notice.
Did anyone else notice that if you want to sync with a PC using the 'included' software the PC has to be running Windows and Outlook. I mean this meant to appeal to the Linux users out there but they cant come up with a linux version of thier sync software??
You are far too kind to Mr. Michael Dell.
Dell is pricing these higher because Linux has more than just legitimacy, it's desirable.
In short, Linux is hot, he's a business man and he knows how to make money.
Vote Naked 2000
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
People, Linux has got to stand on it's own. I think it's great to talk about taking over market share, and breaking the back of the oppressive monopoly that we've all been struggling under, but if we can't do anything more than mimmic the new features that Microsoft is coming out with, ours will be a short dynasty. We have to fight the temptation to think of ourselves as a "better Windows". People have to buy into Linux because it does what they need to do, quickly and reliably, with a user interface that makes sense to normal human beings.
Break out of the mold and do something truly creative.
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Your Servant, B. Baggins
That's not Emmett, that's Steve Jobs.
--
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel is just a freight train coming your way
From the developer's site:
Agenda isn't a "new OS". It is Linux. The real McCoy. And it is X. And bash. And whatever else you port.
Leverage open-source operating system and tools.
Source-available system utilities and productivity suite software.
Program in C or C++.
Use familiar tools and libraries like gcc and glibc.
Don't settle for less - the VR3 runs Linux 2.4 and XFree86.
Build user interfaces easily using the built-in FLTK library.
Access databases efficiently using built-in libdb support.
one of my friends told me about the PocketLinux handhelds he saw at linuxworld. has anyone had a chance to see one at the conference? how does it compare to the vr agenda?
No that's not an accordian he's playing, that's the latest Micro$oft PDA ! .....and moving the concertinas in and out helps extend its pathetic battery life.
mv
did anyone get a chance to check out the PocketLinux handhelds? they sound ultrakewl from the website. supposed to have the 2.4 linux kernel with java/xml support. it's supposed to run on both the ipaq and a vtech pda. anyone get their hands on one?
FYI, for those too lazy to check it out themselves, the URL points to KDE!
including Michael Dell keynote and Linux Geek Bowl, hosted by Nick Petreley, with, among others, Jeremy Allison, Larry Augustin, Miguel de Icaza, Jon 'maddog' Hall, Bruce Perens, Eric Raymond and Bob Young, available here . Includes MP3 versions.
And why is it sitting on top of a toilet? :)
Then again you'd be helping Billy G to get richer quick instead of Mr Dell. It's a bit of a double-edged sword, save $$$ or save your soul.............:>
Or just buy a machine from someone else. I don't understand the big hoop-la over Dell machines, are they really that special? Can't one of the myriad of other makers produce similar quality systems?
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Did anyone else notice that they REQUIRE a micro$oft windoze product on the desktop, at least to sync mail?
It's either an Airport base or an iBook power supply.
Since the iBook looks like a toilet seat, I suppose the pic was taken in the right place...
now you know
-- It's always darker before it goes pitch black.
I went to the parties (VALinux and Gnome) they both rocked! However both of the required that you be over 21 to enter, many of the developers were not allowed to go in because of this. There was a coffee shop setup for them but it still just wasn't the same, if you know what I mean.
Party On!
Probably the Apple Airport. Wireless Lan Hub.
Just a guess.
--Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot.
http://www.transvirtual.com/pocketlinux .htm
http://www.transvirtual.com/poc ketlinux-screens.htm
BusyBox is a single binary that includes all of the following in one binary:
ar, basename, cat, chgrp, chmod, chown, chroot, chvt, clear, cp, cut, date, dc, dd, deallocvt, df, dirname, dmesg, du, dumpkmap, dutmp, echo, false, fbset, fdflush, find, free, freeramdisk, fsck.minix, grep, gunzip, gzip, halt, head, hostid, hostname, id, init, insmod, kill, killall, length, ln, loadacm, loadfont, loadkmap, logger, logname, ls, lsmod, makedevs, mkdir, mkfifo, mkfs.minix, mknod, mkswap, mktemp, more, mount, mt, mv, nc, nslookup, ping, poweroff, printf, ps, pwd, reboot, renice, rm, rmdir, rmmod, sed, setkeycodes, sh, sleep, sort, swapoff, swapon, sync, syslogd, tail, tar, tee, telnet, test, touch, tr, true, tty, umount, uname, uniq, update, uptime, usleep, uudecode, uuencode, wc, which, whoami, yes, zcat, [
So 8 Megs begins to look even roomier.
My ghod. I know the people in those pictures. The guy on the laptop on the ghetto microphones runs nerp.net. Talk about a small world. I never thought the Slashdot community would have the pleasure of seeing them all. Heh
Scary.
My question is, "Will it display remote running X apps?"
/. on the stool. (Garbage in...)
That is, can I attach a wireless networking card and then display Netscrape that's running on a remote server. Remember, many of us still have the goal or reading
Buying a complete notebook for this purpose is just too expensive and too bulky. An oversized IPaq with wireless networking would be the perfect fit for my problem space.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Heh. Slashdot authors and accordions. Two things that probably shouldn't go together.
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Michael Sims-michael at slashdot.org
Yes, I agree completely regarding Jesse Berst. He is even more idiotic than John Dvorak.
A lawyer & digital forensics examiner. Also an expert on open source software (OSS).
I'm kind of skeptical of Michael Dell. He has only started to come around to Linux very recently and the overtures he has made to the Linux crowd has been mostly cosmetic.
I looked on his site to find out whether I could order a laptop without Windows and the answer is no. I assume he only offers Linux installs for businesses. That's fine and dandy but it doesn't address my needs as an individual consumer, which is the base that built his company.
I want to see Dell be more innovative in the Linux arena, rather than looking to see what Gateway and others are doing. I really like their products and feel that they offer decent deals for those of us who want cheap, well made pc's/laptops with standard components.
Saw this in the second article mentioned:
"But the chairman studiously avoided bad-mouthing Redmond, Wash., even when asked by an attendee why Dell systems preconfigured with Linux continued to be more expensive than similarly configured Windows machines."
and thought I was about to get the official answer at last!
No luck. I've been wondering for ages why the dell linux boxes are so much more expensive than the windows boxes. I thought they might be dealing with amortization of costs from the learning curve, but Dell also mentions in that article that they, themselves, are relying on linux boxes for several segments of their production process. My theory goes right out the window on that statement.
Does anyone have a better idea? Or does anyone know what Dell actually responded to the question of why the linux boxes cost more?
Founder's Camp
Founder's Camp
News for non-Nerds. Stuff that matters.
I thought that at first, but it's hidden away down in the specs section:
Rsync for Linux and Windows PC
This thing better cost under $100. It's less powerful than my Palm III that I bought two years ago. Price is going to be its only possible point of competition with *any* existing PDA. It's got a green-and-black screen. It's not even expandable except through a serial port.
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* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
SOurce Page http://developer.agendacomputing.com/source.html Has instrustions for getting to their CVS server if you are really intrested in how it works. It is part of thier developers site..
It's very possibe you're currect. However, I suspect that if they were priced just _under_ the NT servers that they'd sell considerably better (for a greater net profit) since most companies already have all the NT licenses they need. I know if I were in an NT shop (shudder) I'd still buy the cheaper linux servers and then install NT from my MSDN discs.
That said, I'm sure that Dell's market research knows just what to do to eeek the most possible cash out of the IT purchaser (certainly more than this geek knows about it) and is probably doing exactly what will maximize profits.
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Redherring has an interesting art icle saying that while Linuxworld is still a safe-haven for geeks, it has become a must-attend event for suits. My read of this is quite simple. They called us crazy, idealists, and starry-eyed optimists. They hoped we'd go away because we challenged the status quo. Now we can't be ignored. We've been right all along. Open source development works.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
It looks to me like the Linux VR they are talking about is the Linux VR project at www.linuxvr.org, although it's not mentioned on their site. The Linux VR project is a port of linux to the NEC VR series of processors, which is what the Agenda is running.
Dork, nerd, schmuck, panty-waist, turd... it all means 'geek' to you.
And you're proud of that??
As well as these three, it's interesting to note that RedHat's stock took a turn for the better yesterday when it and IBM annouced that Big Blue would be shipping Linux pre-installed on a range of PCs (obviously shipping it on it's NetFinity range wasn't enough :>). I'd post a URL for the story, but it's easier to tell you how to find it than give the URL (it's horribly long); just take a look at the "Technology News" section on Bloomberg's site.
Maybe they had trouble finding something to sync to. You first need a similar app on your Linux desktop, then the app needs to be open enough that you can write a sync tool. Well, with the StarOffice source code it should be possible to sync to those tools. And ApplixWare is using legible file formats so sync should be possible with that also.
OLD: dating from the remote past; ANCIENT ("old traditions"); persisting from an earlier time ("an old ailment"), ("they brought up the same old argument"); of long standing ("an old friend")
LINUX a free implementation of the UNIX computer operating system developed under a distributed, "open source" model
Why don't you? Isn't the whole point of open source that it empowers you to develop whatever you want? If you've got a great idea, share it with the rest of us.
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Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
I just want to publicly state what a complete idiot jesse berst is. I've never, EVER found a bit of worthwhile information in anything he's ever written. His opinions are nothing more than that, his opinions, and they are often wrong and backed by nothing more than his own ill-conceived speculation. We are all now dumber after reading any of the trash he writes.
Now, to mobile linux. Most of the embedded stuff here at (a href="http://www.linuxworldexpo.com">LinuxWorld is alright. There is one stellar exception that stands above the crowd--PocketLinux. These guys rock! First of all, unlike some of the other guys, they're not putting a desktop linux distro in my hand. Do I want to run X on a screen that's 2" x 3"? Hell no. They've built an incredibly fast system that will display full motion video (that's right) on the Compaq iPaq. It's completely open source, and the framework is standards based and it appears to be easy to write your own applications on. It scales as well. Everything from a handheld to a cellular phone to a set-top box is possible. This is where the future of mobile linux is going to be. These guys finally did it right. Anyone else considering an embedded solution would do themselves a favor to look over there. And one final note, this product is SHIPPING TODAY! Yesterday even. This is not vapor ware. Spend the $150 and start developing apps today!
My other computer is your Windows box
Linux: It's UNIX, only better.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
"The Gnome desktop will integrate embedded Mozilla into the (Eazel) Nautilus file manager"
Can somebody tell me why the Linux community openly criticizes Microsoft's silly ideas and then tries so hard to emulate them? It seems like Linux's inferiority complex is getting in the way of any real innovation on their part.
Then it's an old one. Palm SDK's are available. CE SDK's are available. Heck, you can even develope for the NEWTON.
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
I'd guess that the linux systems cost more because of the R&D costs involved whenever Dell upgrades an internal component is are spread out over a smaller number of systems. PC Builders don't actually _do_ much except promise you that the pieces they assemble work well with eachother and the OS they're installing (which is why Packard Bell should be considered the king of empty promises). Whenever they switch from Brand X floppy drives to brand XX floppy drives they have to test that hardware with the other components for a long while. When they do that on an NT platform they spread that cost out over the N systems they sell. With Linux it's spread out over the N/1000 systems they sell. As Linux grows in size it'll cost less (unless they pull the same scam the music industries did with the Cassette -> CD switch (wherein they promised higher CD costs initally and lower CD costs in the future)).
--
Heh. I guess the hardware that runs Linux should be beer too, eh?
Dell can sell overpriced Linux systems because a good portion of Dell buyers (coorporate style business and higher education) can afford it. Oh well. Dell is evil. Dell is bad. Dell is Microsoft. Dell is awful because they've shipped me parts next day when a piece of hardware died.
Personally, I like Dell systems for servers. The hardware is decent, and the service contracts are good. So what if the price is higher - I feel that I'm getting what I paid for. Dealing with Dell has been a much better experience than dealing with, oh, HP or Compaq (who also overprice their systems.
Besides, Micheal Dell is freakin' rich; He didn't get that way by giving away computers.
So what exactly do you have to do to win that Slashdot Cruiser? ;-)
The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
Can someone tell me what the heck this is? It looks like an Apple rice cooker!
Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
cute. i just went to www.gnomefoundation.org to see who all were in on this. nice work. Nice little non-helpful whois on that.
"We are spending more R&D dollars on Linux than any other OS, given its size," Dell said.
This brings up the question, how does one spend R&D dollars on Windows? Isn't that Microsoft's job?
icqqm [ICQ:11952102]
Q:Can I write directly onto the LCD screen to input information? Do I have to learn a new handwriting format?
A: Yes you can write onto the LCD screen and your natural handwriting will be recognized. With the Agenda VR3 consumers don¦t have to learn graffiti or any other new form of manuscript.
The VR3 looks moderately cool, but I'd like to take a look at the VR5.
http://www.agendacomputing.com/sup port/faq06.jsp
The Agenda PDA looks pretty interesting. I was going to dump my old Cassiopeia E-10 in favor of a Handspring, but I may have to wait for this to come out now.
The manufacturer's site is not very specific about what exactly Linux VR, the OS the thing runs, is, apart from saying it's "Linux-based." What does that mean? Will simple console applications work on this thing? Does anyone know? Has anyone seen one at the Expo?
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Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.