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Debian 2.2 Reviewed, Interview on Embedded Debian
Patrick Mullen sent us linkage to a nice review review on the latest Debian release. Frank Smith wrote in to say that Geek news has an interview with him (mega biases earn bonus points) about the Embedded Debian Project which is actually looking pretty good (if you're into that whole embedded thing, which might not be everyone :)
Just so everyone knows, Debian does go through great details on making it simple to use and maintain. tasksel which lets you selsct "task" packages (e.g. task-laptop, task-helix-gnome) and gets the appropriate debs.
But my favorite is menu. Nearly every window manager you install will have identical menus that are generated by the programs in the menu package. Most packages provide a menu file that gets added into these menus. The also integrate it into GNOME and KDE.
It's these small details that everyone overlooks that make Debian exceptionaly to me.
Ahhh a stable 2.2 -- I can finally move off that snapshot from March.
I really wish they wouldn't make tasksel the default choice for package selection. Often when you just want to remove a single item in a package, it will ask if you want to remove the entire task, which may not be what you desire or intend.
Be sure to visit Joystick101.org for in-depth gaming news.
More slashdot cultishness! How dare CmdrTaco and Hemos promote their favorite distribution over all others!
Oh, wait. There was a story on Redhat already today...
Ignore this rant.
-- IANAEG - I am not an elder god.
Ahm... don't wait: convert to Debian! :)
(Disclaimer: this HOWTO is a bit pre-production quality, consider it version 0.0.1)
--AP
Yet another shallow review.
DukeofURL should start doing actual reviews, not just another "look, I can copy a feature list" article.
So far, every DukeofURL review linked to from Slashdot has been a bore.
This isn't a flame, but an opinion.
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The review dumps on the install, but that was no big deal. If you've been using Linux for more than a year, and bash doesn't scare you, neither will dbootstrap. (Btw, I have to agree that dbootstrap looks like FreeBSD's installer-- almost exactly. They do say Debian is the most BSD-like of the distros...)
Oh, yeah, and apt-get/dpkg are sweet. They are very intelligent, almost dauntingly so. Debian's package system keeps a lot of state about packages going in and out. Just yesterday, I wanted to upgrade Esound from the normal "esound" version to "esound-alsa," and the process was something like this:
(can't do; conflicts with esound)
(can't do; several packages depend on esound)
(hmmm, esound is being considered for removal, and esound-alsa also satisfies the dependency for those packages, so install it)
There was probably a better way to do that, but that it could do that sure threw me for a loop. One thing I don't like about dpkg is that it doesn't index files; if you're used to doing rpm -qf <file> a lot, then you'll have to switch to dpkg -S <file> and waiting for the package manager to search for which package the file belongs to, usually taking a few seconds (whereas rpm does it instantly).
One other pet peeve was that no binary Pine/Pico
If you're an idealistic-in-thought/pragmatic-in-practice guy like me, Debian's non-free section is nice, in that it reminds you what software doesn't quite meet the ideals that spawned the whole thing. Nothing obtrusive, just a tiny reminder...
Anyway, I'm very happy with my new Debian system. The extensive testing really shows, and makes the system feel much more solid than your typical RH setup. If Linux is just Linux to you, then it's no big deal, but if you want to build your system into perfection, Debian is probably the best starting point. I'm well on my way
iSKUNK!
Just for the record, I have never found it difficult to install Debian Linux. Also, for the record, I have never found dselect particularly hard either. Setting-up Windows NT is far more obnoxious and tedious. Why do people keep saying Debian is hard?
Regards,
Ogin Assword
Well I just installed debian 2.2 on my sparcstation the other day and I must say it wasn't as easy as I had hoped. I found a few instances where the installation docs are just plain wrong and missing some steps and it also failed to setup SILO correctly. I think it won't setup SILO if you have a separate boot partition (which I shouldn't need but somehow the kernel ended up >1024 cylinders).
Oh well, its still really sweet. Their network install is so much better than anyone else's. Red hats is a joke and crashes if the site you are installing from is full.
-Stype
Bus error -- driver executed.
This community isn't just tight-knit between the developers who work on the project, but it's also a tight-knit community that exists between users and developers (remember back to our collective sorrow when Joel died). Go onto any major IRC server and see how many people populate channels named #mandrake or #redhat and you'll notice that their numbers pale in comparison with #debian 's population.
The non-profit nature of Debian tends to attract the most humanitarian (and perhaps more socialistic) of Linux users, and this no more apparent then in #debian on irc.debian.org (part of the irc.openprojects.net network). This channel is always filled with over 50 friendly people at any given time willing to help you with any problems no matter how large, and most of the regulars there will keep an eye out on people who can help you later if they can't immediately.
To those consider Debian, I'd like to point out that despite the apparent difficulties involved with installing, configuring, and using Debian GNU/Linux, please remember that there will always be a very co-operative IRC channel and comprehensive mailing list willing and ready to help you through to appreciate Debian. If you're wondering if it's really difficult to keep Debian on the cutting edge, it's not. Just pop into the official #debian channel on irc.debian.org and type in:
And xk's bot, named apt, will tell you the single line you need to add to /etc/sources.list for apt-get to install and configure new software for you. Hang around and you'll see you a few Debian developers and even CowboyNeal who frequents it too. So give Debian a go and the Debian community will help you never look back.
MashPotato - Mobile Array of Support Helpers for Potato
-- "I can't tell the future, I just work there." -- The Doctor
There have been quite a few discussions about rpm versus deb/apt in the past couple days, and I'd like to share some of my personal experiences with both of these packaging systems.
I use debian at home, and I absolutely love it. I can understand how installation may be a bit tricky. I always install a really basic system and then configure apt to get the rest of the packages I want from the net.
I've found both my systems at home incredibly easy to maintain. Installing or upgrading packages is simple thanks to apt-get. I've NEVER had packages fail to install that I've downloaded from one of the debian sites (or even helixcode's gnome archive). apt automatically handles dependencies and installs any other packages you need.
At work, I have redhat installed. Many people say they prefer redhat because rpms are more widely available and are easier to install. I see this as both a blessing and a curse. I find myself downloading rpms from all over the internet because I can't find the "official" version. Sometimes they install, most of the time they fail to install because of conflicting libraries or conflicting naming conventions. When they do install, I've had quite a few packages segfault for what appears to be no good reason.
If you want to have a stable, maintainable system, I'd suggest trying out debian. If you want to try out all the latest stuff, I'd also suggest debian - try out the unstable branch, it's got a ton more stuff in it! And if you run across software that's not in the debian archives, you can give alien a try, or you can always build from source.
-Chris
Why can I say with such assuredness that debian kicks ass even tho I haven't used it?
It comes with a game that I helped made, xtux arena.
Please go to the webpage and but the author to keep doing more code (I'm a mere graphic monkey for the game). He's gotten lazy recently.
http://xtux.sourceforge.net/
enjoy
It's turtles all the way down.
I'm rooting for Debian as well, but rather than have it kick Redhat's butt, I wish it would conquer the entrenched masses of stubborn Slackware lusers out there that haven't yet seen the light.
--
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
[I have posted a similar article in a German Linux user group today, but folks haven't really been able to explain the following curious behaviour, either.]
I am a longtime Suse user and have tried Redhat with equal success. Because of a few things that I disliked about Suse and Redhat, I wanted to give Debian a try.
Downloaded the official potato CD set ISOs, burned them, ran install, used the default options. Used the "simple" option for tasksel during installation, chose *no* additional task packages, finished installation.
Logged in as root for the first time. Started dselect. Went to [S]elect, but chose nothing. Instead, immediately left the package selection menu with [Q] (*).
Went to [I]nstall: Boom, *69* additional packages are to be installed, among them binutils, emacs, tetex, gpm.
Where are these selections coming from? I haven't selected them and dselect did not prompt me for them.
And no, if I use [Enter] instead of [Q] at (*), the same happens. Automatic selection of additonal packages without any information, prompt or query about it.
What's going on there?
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It's mentioned that KDE is not included, which is true, but only tells half of the story.
/etc/apt/sources.list, which has a list of sites (web and ftp), to check for new packages.
Most (if not all) Debian users install applications using 'apt-get install'. apt-get uses a file
Previously, if you wanted to install KDE, you would just add the line
deb http://kde.tdyc.com stable kde
to your sources.list
You would then install KDE like you would do any other Debian packages. From a user's pov, there would be no difference from having KDE included. In fact, some people install their GNOME this way (they added a option pointing to the Helix site, so the system installs HELIX GNOME instead of 'normal' Debian GNOME).
This is one reason I saw no reason to cry about the suggestion that Debian 'not include' non-free.
Je ne parle pas francais.
You didn't hear about the billionaire in Redmond who's secretly supporting Debian? Apparently he wants more "innovative" features in it.
Best Slashdot Co
I have started playing with CML2+OS and have used it to build a small rootfs for my 386sx/20 8M DECpc mouldering in the corner. There have been a few snags, but thanks to some help from these guys on channel #emdebian on irc.debian.org, I was able to work thru them and (mostly) boot the thing for the first time last night. Once I'm done, I will have breathed new life into this old iron, which will serve as a utility on my growing home network. It's a great learning experience. In the end, I hope I will have contributed something of value back to the Emdebian project.
Thanks for Emdebian, and good luck with it!
Man, I can totally agree with this. I started out on RedHat because it seemed the easiest distrubution to start out with. It served me well, but I have to say that I'm very happy after making the move to Debian.
True, I would have had a much harder time installing Debian as a first-time user vs RedHat, but once you know your way around a bit, Debian is a treat to work with.
I still have RH on my laptop, but my other boxes run Debian and I love it.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
Here at OmniTouch (tm) (a subsidiary of CountryTime Lemonade [tm]) it's all about caring. And feeling. When you use OmniTouch, you are touching people--and you are touching the people those people touched.
I've been looking forward to using Debian for quite a while--until I read your post. You make it sound like some whacked-out religious cult "Join us. You'll never look back." I'll probaby still use Debian--there are good technical and political reasons to do so. But if the people on IRC ever start chanting "Love the Leader", I'm out of there.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Simple enough. task-packages are just empty packages. No content at all. All a task package is is a debian package that depends on a bunch of related packages, and suggest others.
That way, you can type apt-get install task-gnome task-samba task-c-dev etc, and apt will download and install that selection of packages.
When using dselect with task-packages, I've found it best to select the task packages (+) to bring up the depends selection, then set the task package to purge (_), but keep the packages that the task package depended on. You may want to keep the task package installed so if something is added to that task, you're next apt-get upgrade will grab that package as well. On the otherhand, if you don't want something that's in a task-package, dselect will complain because the task-package depends on that package.
It's not a big deal with stable, since the only task packages that will be updated are those from helix and other non-offical packages.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I normally install the sources for things, I use rpm only rarely.
Apart from the deb vs. rpm thing, then, what's in Debian for me? I'm looking for an excuse to switch (from RH 6.x), but haven't found one yet...
Thanks!
b.g.
b.g.
I'm not sure I understand you when you say "logged in as root for the first time". You mean after installing the packages pointed to by the task-* packages? As someone explained, those are empty packages that provide only dependencies. If you select "Install" without a prior "Select" in this state, only whatever the task-* packages point to will be installed. After you enter "Select" for the first time, dselect will automatically select the "required" packages. (Look at the priority field). Emacs is autoselected for this reason.
Well, if you want to back out of select with no changes you need to type X instead of Q. But that's not the reason.
The reason is that during the install some packages couldn't be installed because the stuff they depend on wasn't there. All you need to do is run install in dselect and your installation becomes "complete". It's a nuisance, but you can't exactly say it's the most evil thing you've ever encountered. The documentation specifically notes that install may be run several times from dselect before everything is installed.
If you don't want those extra packages, you can easily deselect them in the select stage because packages are ordered on the basis if they're installed yes or no (and several other ways).
You mean after installing the packages pointed to by the task-* packages?
Yes, during the standard installation process, tasksel will ask what tasks to install. I choose none and right after that, the installation will install a number of packages and finish.
Then I login for the first time and do as described in my original post.
Thanks for the clarification, though.
However, why is emacs, tetex and xfree part of the Debian minimal system when using the "simple" tasksel process?
Also, why do I have to enter [S]elect first for that? And why is there no prompt informing me about these packages?
If I enter dselect and go directly to [I]nstall without [S]elect on a fresh system, no packages at all are being installed. Shouldn't the packages you mentioned be marked for install by tasksel already?
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Part of the issue could also be "required" packages. Its been a while since the last time I installed Debian from scratch, but if memory serves, required, and maybe important packages get selected for install the first time you run dselect and if you don't want them installed you have to manually deselect them. This usually isn't a problem since these packages are for the most part packages needed to take your system from a machine that can boot linux but not do much to a useful debian box.
"You can't fight in here! This is the war room" --Dr. Stra
The documentation specifically notes that install may be run several times from dselect before everything is installed.
If I run [I]nstall, nothing is installed. Only if I enter [S]elect before doing so (and choose nothing), suddenly some packages are mysteriously selected and appear in the next [I]nstall run.
The reason is that during the install some packages couldn't be installed because the stuff they depend on wasn't there.
This is not meant as a flame, but: Why isn't this necessairy on other Linux distributions? Suse and Redhat both install in a single process.
It's a nuisance, but you can't exactly say it's the most evil thing you've ever encountered.
Hmm. I don't find it a nuisance, I just thinks it isn't logical. People told me that Debian is the Linux where nothing happens behind your back. But now things happen behind my back even right during installation...
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A possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet is: dpkg supports three levels of dependency: depends, recommends, and suggests. apt only tries to satisfy the depends dependencies, whereas dselect will try to satisfy the depends and the recommends dependencies.
I'm not sure that this fits your problem description, though.
The evaluation of an action as 'practical' . . . depends on what it is that one wishes to practice.
is how hard it is to set up X. Once you get it up it is *really* *really* sweet. Maybe someone who knows more could tell me why it can't setup X more like Mandrake or RH? Are there problems with them using the tool? (Looks like the same tool on both Mandrake and RH to me) Other than that everything about the new install is very nice. And of course apt-get makes it worth it to work through the X install. ANy good links to a *good* Debian X troubleshooting/setup page? The article was kind of lame but 2.2 does rule.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Hmm. But dselect doesn't tell me about it, that's what I wonder about.
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When RedHat went public, i knew i had to switch. On advice from friends, i tryed out debian. The best decision of my life, i must say.
RedHat may try and be the 'easy to administrate' linux distro, but debian's apt-get update/upgrade makes security updates a flash(and we all know how important that is). I have had many more problems with other distros, especially security problems. If you write a cron job to automagically update the security related packages, you'll always be one step ahead of the crackers.
isomerica.net | Foonetic IRC
How abount Emdeb?
:oP
M@t
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
Any package marked with a Priority: of "standard" or higher is automatically selected for install by dselect if it's a new package (everything is a new package at install time). AFAIK this isn't customizable.
At one point in time I tried to get tex and emacs pulled from standard, but I never got the concensus necessary from the policy cabal to carry out my evil schemes. Oh well.
Having been accustomed to RH's non-human-readable /var/lib/rpm/*.rpm database files, all I can say is:
/var/lib/dpkg/info/${pkg-name}.list ;-)
That kicks ass.
Thanks for passing the tip!
(P.S.: It's actually
iSKUNK!
I have to go with VP on this one. FreeBSD, working under the BSD liscense, is pretty free with its liscensing. Debian, however, is the distro most anal about enforcing the "GPL v. non-GPL" distinction and, like you said, won't include Pine/Pico for that reason. There is a small niche for a politically-active/pure distro, and Debian fills that niche, but it's hardly the same niche as FreeBSD'd. Slackware, on the other hand, with its even slower release-schedule but almost cult-like following of old unix hardliners, is much closer to FreeBSD.
I think it is of supreme importantce to have a free and unencumberd embedded system development environment. There are about 10 times more embedded systems than desktop systems, and they are getting more, quickly. Now, linux seems to become a more and more important player in this field, but freedom (as in speach) is not really mentioned frequently in this buissness. And very well this might come back at the whole linux community when weights shift slowly to corporate buissnesses interests and away from conviction and passion for good and even free software. We need to look ahead and make sure that the best distributions and tools for embedded systems come from the community and not from GimmeMoneyCorp. Cause in the long run this will decide upon the future of linux.
In 2 months of trying to get Debian 2.2 installed on a couple machines, I ran into about a dozen people who wanted to help, but were too ignorant to do so. One exception was found, but in the midst of the steps involved, he disappeared and never showed up again.
If you want to prove to me that real help really exists, track me down and let me know you'll stick with it to make it work no matter how long it takes (and based on past experience, it will take a while until the base installer get replaced).
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Whoa, that was a bit too strange...
;).
At first I read your second sentence as 'but I have to say I'm very happy after making love to Debian'.
Sorta gives loving a distro a different meaning
# apt-get install ssmtp
(verbiage that amounts to 'adding 1 package removing 1 package, ok?')
[Y/n] Y
(-much- verbiage that amounts to 'lessee, we have to take out sendmail to put in ssmtp, doing that, oh dear, all your mail-readers are broken for a moment, okay, installing ssmtp, there ya' go!)
# _
The same thing works for all those conflicting packages, assuming your apt configuration is up to
date.
If your favorite software is distributed in debs but doesn't have an apt-compliant hierarchy, encourage them to put up an apt-compliant hierarchy. (The only example I can think of this is the tdyc version of KDE, and that's going to get rolled into Debian proper, but I suppose there might be software out there that isn't in debian's tree, and if they pull non-free hosting there'll be -lots- of software that isn't in debian's tree.)
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
At the risk of poking a troll, what's your beef with Slackware?
--
Kindness, sympathy, public spirit and other noble human traits are not a function of political system or religion. All human institutions espouse these things (at least for themselves).
I like Debian and advocate free software. I enjoy helping people with it, and other things that I know better. I am NOT as socialist.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
I tried that once, made a huge mess on my server. ;-)
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
My personal approach has always been to instantly quite dselect as soon as it starts, without going to Select, or Install, or anything of that sort. I then update all my present packages to their latest versions with apt.
After that, I apt-get install aptitude, and use that for my package installation needs. I find it to be a far better tool than dselect.
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
Not as biased as some others can be. I am suprised at just how biased the Linux "press" can be. Take a look at this very intersting thread on the recent RH 7.0 release:
CmdrTaco, RedHat and everything...Don't Panic???
Does Debian 2.2 have support for raidtools-0.90 in the kernel, or do I have to patch it myself?
and then she KICKED HIM IN THE DING DING!
The end.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
The real reason for all of this is, dselect is a horrible thing and is going to go away; front ends to apt are going to replace it, so, nobody has been putting any effort into making dselect behave sanely because it's expected to die a well deserved-death any time now.
I think the console-apt is in unstable and there's maybe a gnome-apt too; I just use apt-get from the command line and haven't touched dselect in years. (Before apt, I just used dpkg; dselect was never worth it to me.)
--Parity
--Parity
'Card carrying' member of the EFF.
A number of people (including the author) have commented on the install for Debian being hard - I just installed the latest free version of Stormix (which they did mention in the article) and it was rather easy.
Also, it sems that Stormix includes KDE which is a nice option to have (though I find myself liking Gnome quite a bit). They even have a selection phase during install to select Gnome or KDE, and then pick your window manager.
If you want to give Debian a try, it looks like Stormix is the easiest route.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
(Mainly for new installations:) Standard packages will be requested by default. Use capital `D' or `R' key to override this - see the keybindings help screen.
I just noticed these lines a few days ago, after two years of using Debian.(sic!)
Ciao
----
FB
Yup. Aptitude rules. Especially the version in unstable-- have you tried that? It even tells your reverse dependencies on the spot, i.e., "which packages depend on this one".
It seems like more and more sites want to do the Linux thing, and more and more sites do it very badly.
Personnally, if I was choosing a new distro, I'd like to hear something more than: "It's harder to install" or "It includes this and this software".
And if you *are* gonna mention that the distro isn't bleeding edge and that you're gonna have a hard time upgrading everything, perhaps you should do a bit more research! (/etc/sources.list anyone?)
-JF.
Maybe it's a knee-jerk thing, but it is my opinion that RH is in general a good distro (albeit flaky somtimes) and the company strives to be a good player within the community. In return, they get a lot of shit from 'leet types, who generally tend to be of the Slackware persuasion.
OTOH, technically I think Slack is a dated system that had its hey-day (damn it, I started with it) but turned out into a backwards-looking, anti-innovative, non LSB compliant one man show. We should let it die the peaceful death it deserves and support forward looking systems, such as Debian or all the RPM based distros.
--
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Seriously, it's nothing that couldn't be solved by a couple symbolic links. But Debian would rather maintain its "purity" then do what's necessary to accomodate proprietary software. It's their choice, but don't give them more credit then they're due.
The point that I'm trying to get across is that most other distributions have appeared to have lost the true spirit of the open-source movement and instead of helping you with technical support with open arms reach for your credit card first.
Try Debian and you'll understand the point I'm trying to make.
MashPotato - Mobile Array of Support Helpers for Potato
-- "I can't tell the future, I just work there." -- The Doctor
When you install, it asks what type of system this is going to be. Remember, the smallest it will let you go is basic (I believe). After that you run dselect automatically. By choosing basic, it selects packages that aren't installed yet, but selects them assuming you want more functionality than the base2_2.tgz file can provide. But, if you exit dselect, and manually apt-get everything you want, this won't be a problem. This, as far as I know, the only flaw with dselect. But, apt-get works better. Hope that solves your problem.
"I'd rather not know the answers, than not know the questions." - Hezh
__
__
nothin' says lovin' like an open source penguin.
What happens if there isn't enough space for everything at install time? Will dselect intelligently drop emacs, tex or whatever to make the system fit on your disk?
(I'm fed up with RedHat's installer which will happily start installing 600Mbyte of stuff on a 300Mbyte partition, even though it knows the size before starting. I'm sure Debian isn't as stupid.)
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
In this instance, that's wishful thinking, see: #15865, #24950, #65690.
To be honest, my observations have been that the "'leet types" tend to be using Debian more than Slackware. I can't count the number of times I've read somebody bashing Red Hat on the basis of RPM, when "apt-get is sooooo much better!"
Frankly, I don't think any distribution is any more backwards-looking, anti-innovative, or caters to the 'leet types more than any other distribution. They all have their design goals. Slackware, even with it's very basic package management and BSD-style scripts, is operating under its design goals, just like Debian does with it's necessity for DFSG-compliant packages.
Frankly, I wish everybody would stop the distribution-bashing altogether. It's very counterproductive.
--
Just throwing in my $0.02...
"This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."