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DNA As Electrical Conductor
Tekkaman writes: "Britannica Online has an interesting article about a new discovery about DNA which may lead to huge advancements in nanotechnology. Apparently, scientists have discovered how to create 'DNA wires'; that is, strands of DNA which can conduct electricity. Already ideas for biosensors that can detect abnormalities in DNA are being researched -- the possibilites seem boundless."
The concept was originally invented by two Swiss researchers, and was announced 1 1/2 year ago in Nature.
I thought it was a joke because it was released on April 1st, 1999...
What can't we make with these things nowadays? Looks like a lot of neat/cool ideas, but I expect that like most neat/cool ideas, about a thousand ideas from now, somebody will actually come up with a real use for DNA. (other that it's obvious intended use!)
As with ANY technology - it's just a tool, and it can be used for good or bad. Consider:
Cars: good uses - they can be used to transport us to fun events, bad uses - can be used as a getaway in a bank robbery
The Internet: good uses - Slashdot, Open Source, information transfer, bad uses - promoting paediophilia.
MP3 files: good uses - Frees musicians from the RIAA, bad uses - can be used for broadcasting hatred.
Airplanes: good uses - travelling to fun places, bad uses - Saddam Hussein using them to bomb the Kurds.
MySQL opensource database: good uses - storing messages for a web-board, bad uses - storing a hitman's target list.
Should we shun all these technologies because it is possible to use them for something bad?
Consider that instead of the company firing you because you have a gene for a certain disease, the technology can be used to CURE the disease before it even becomes a problem!
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
0x0000
"The Internet is made of cats."
Let's compromise, let's do it on Wednesday at 3.
I'm on a chair.
No, reproducing is not altering. And conduction is not semiconduction. The point of this discovery is purely biological.
Actually, this isn't very far off from an adaptive Field-Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). While it doesn't physically change its wiring, it does the equivilent and reconfigures it's connections and balance of processing power to improve it's own performance. There is a whole class of adaptive filters that select tap weights to improve their performance when in contact with their environment. They are quite useful devices, and the current Internet would be impossible without them.
I think reconfigurable systems are more useful that systems that could "change it's physical wiring" because such systems would 1) Give nasty glitches when they are in the act of rewiring, and 2) Be VERY hard to analyze and test.
No way, tricorders use fotonic sensors!
No, the DNA doesn't reproduce itself. It is being transcripted into both DNA and m-RNA by the cellular core.
- Are DAMNED expensive(c.$300/tr.oz. Au, c.$500/tr.oz. Pt)
- Get nowhere near thin enough for nano apps.
Instead of using DNA in a microdot, why not just use ANYTHING ELSE to hide the message. These alternatives would definately be cheaper and more efficient. I suppose you forget that deoxyribonucleic acid is one of the most available on earth. As far as cost? TLA's that would use DNA microdots for info transmission don't have to worry about cost. And as an anti-counterfeiting measure, it's proven extremely effective in Sydney. The Olympics are a Big Deal, and the IOC and the Sydney Olympic Committee get a license fee for every shirt sold. (Not to mention the raw margins for the independant sellers.) The money involved is, to be frank, huge considering it's two weeks and two days. How long is it until someone just takes a couple of pounds of DNA and makes the worlds first DNA paperweight? "Why'd you use DNA?" "It's a proof of concept. Now we know you can make paperweights out of DNA." Been there, done that. It's called "Taxidermy." On a different tangent, since 'DNA computers' are going to have four states for each bit instead of two, we'll need a different method define the states. Here's my proposal for the different values of each bit(Quadruple-state logic):- 1
- 0
- UNDEFINED
- NULL
How about 0, 1, 2, 3? As in 'false', 'probably false', 'probably true', and 'true'? Why can't there be "quits" and "quads"?I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Furthermore, a lot of modern digital ('binary') electronics use 'tri-state' logic - i.e. hi, lo, hi-Z. These are still used in a binary manner.
Even if we presume that a DNA 'block' is analogous to a 'bit', you may need the other two states for control circuits or something when you start building up devices out of them...
In fact, I haven't seen anything that makes me believe that DNA computers will even be digital. The article makes it sound as though the M-DNA will act like an analog device -- i.e. the current flow thru the strand varies based on the bindings. Sounds like a variable resistor, to me -- or a transistor (amplifier).
If you use M-DNA in that way, it would mean that a single strand would represent a 'bit'; in other words, if the bonded strand acts like a transistor, you could set it up to 'operate' in 'switching mode', the same way you can a transistor. Electronic digital logic is based on transistors operating in (binary) switching mode, iirc. So, if you have a DNA strand acting like a transistor, you could connect several of them in circuits, an build a device. Such a device could be either digital or analogue in nature, or could have some yet-to-be-determined number of discrete states (e.g. 4), depending on the properties of the strands used.
Note that some transistors are more useful in one or the other of the modes (switching or amplifying), and that 'switching' is a special case of amplification.
Do you know of any online source for realistic detail designs of digital devices based on DNA?
0x0000
"The Internet is made of cats."
I hate to break it to you, but you do, in theory at least, require a *working* prototype in order to patent something
Which makes one wonder how M$ could hold any patents at all....
yeah weve seen this before but now could u imagine this? "Well our banking system came down with a bad case of strep, but don't worry! Norton dropped off a case of Penicillin so the circitry should heal in the next day or 2"
Software does this kind of thing too. Load it into RAM, alter the binary on disk, load the new binary image into RAM, jump to the start of the new image. You can do it without altering the disk, too; lot's of ways. It's damn near trivial.
I've seen code that changes the next instruction to be executed based on the program state, then executes it. Worked fine, was small and fast.
It's a matter of design. If it's designed to be self-modifying, it won't necesarily misbehave during the mods. In fact, if the purpose of the code (gate array) is to recode (rewire) itself, it almost certainly won't glitch up while doing so.
Your second point here is gospel. That's why self-replicating, self-modifying code is frowned upon. Not because it's necesarily hostile, but because it is a bear to debug, test, and maintain0x0000
"The Internet is made of cats."
Oh yeah, I really want my computer growing new circuits for itself. I can see the new passtime for the script kiddies now. "Yeah, d00d5! I gave this guy's Linux box cancer of the graphics card. It was way cool ..."
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
This could be the basis for a really good nerve-to-silicon sensor arrangement.
*whup* "Get along, little electrons. Heeyah!"
Let me check my calendar.... Hmmm.... Is next Tuesday good for you?
fix nerve damage (I'd love to see Christopher Reeve and many others walk again someday)
I don't see this discovery putting us any closer to fixing nerve damage. The problem in fixing nerve damage isn't the lack of a suitable conductor, the problem is the unbelievable interconnect complexity and the vast number of wildly different signals. We can already use 2 digital signal processors and copper wire to jump a break in the spine. The problem is what signals need to be sent where and how quickly. So, it is an issue of DSPs that are too slow as well as a lack of understanding of the central nervous system. DNA trickery won't help us there.
That might be pretty hard to do. IIRC, DNA needs a handful of enzymes and water for replication, which would make it difficult to do and still have a useful conductor. Of course it would be pretty easy to have a box that makes new wire sitting on your desktop - 'Hey, we need another 20 feet of cable', 'No prob, let me replicate another 47 kajillion base pair and we're good to go.'
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
Good News: Recent technological breakthroughs have restored
you to full and perfect health. You say, "Yea!"
Bad News: Teenagers have cracked your hospital's security and
you now look like a Pokemon. You say, "Pikachu! Pikachu!"
Hmm, to me this is very interesting. It's a race between MEMS and bionanotech. I'm curious to see which will win first; Between this and the nano-diamond crystalline structures, it's going to be a damn interesting next twenty years. . .
Where's the submit button??
The DNA provides the scaffolding for the metal atoms to sit on. It's easy to generate, and it makes small/straight threads easily. I challenge you to invent a metal wire effectively one-atom-thick without using something like DNA as a substrate.
Similar work has been done recently with a LEEPS microscope. A picture of a DNA can be found here.
God, I hate all these references to causing cancer to computer systems via a well crafted virus.
I mean, a good viral lab today is beyond the capaacity of most governments, let alone individuals (save the CEO's of MSFT, ORCL, amongst others).
And by the time that this tech is commercially feasable, the viral labs will be really locked down. Never mind that they'll connect via USB or the FireWire, are smaller than the average PalmPilot and have Linux drivers only.
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
I can see it now, next time I go into a church, instead of seeing Jesus up on a crucifix, I'll see the scientist who made us live for ever.
I am currently not obliged to divulge that information as it might compromise the agents in the field
This is not a new discovery. I remember reading this when I was a biochem student around 1996.
The way dna conducts electricity is that the chromatic rings of the bases have overlapping pi bonds. These rings are like a stack of pancakes. The pi bonds are half occupied and orbit purpendicular to the plane of the rings above and below. So they overlap and contribute considerably to the rigidness of the overall helix. Because the orbital clouds occupy the same space electrons can freely pass from one pi bond of one ring in the chain to the orbital of the next ring.
I believe the particular paper described actually annealing a single strand of DNA to a pair of microelectrodes and measuring the various potentials that could be created accross it.
KidSock
I wonder how long it will be before we see some real-world, affordable tests in the private sector?
I'm on a chair.
Maybe historical DNA in your computer is going to be the next uber-geek chic.
"I think OJ did it... I mean... ever since I've been using his DNA, I've racked up a hell of a lot of frags..."
----
The author writes "any deletions or mutations in the hybridized DNA act as a barrier that prevents electron flow."
I can imagine how additions would break conductivity (adding links to the dna chain that are not bound to a metal). But how would removing links in the dna strand break conductivity? Presumably, the links left in the strand still have their metal.
--- -- - -
Give me LIBERTY, or give me a check.
It seems like the cool thing to do these days is make things out of DNA. This, using DNA to thwart counterfitters, hiding Morse code in DNA microdots.
But why do you need to do any of this? If you're coating DNA strands with metal why don't you just make really small wires? Instead of using DNA in a microdot, why not just use ANYTHING ELSE to hide the message. These alternatives would definately be cheaper and more efficient.
How long is it until someone just takes a couple of pounds of DNA and makes the worlds first DNA paperweight? "Why'd you use DNA?" "It's a proof of concept. Now we know you can make paperweights out of DNA."
On a different tangent, since 'DNA computers' are going to have four states for each bit instead of two, we'll need a different method define the states. Here's my proposal for the different values of each bit(Quadruple-state logic):
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
2 3369/102-4030351-8478532> Frankenstein, Or, the Modern Prometheus </A>
What if they use my DNA for that, will I be electrocuted?
Sorry. Didn't mean to imply that this was going to be the breakthrough technology that would enable us to acheive any of those pipe dreams. A much greater understanding of the central nervous system and the brain is needed. Perhaps this technology could be utilized to gain some insight in these fields through experimentation.
-Jennifer
In 1994, Len Adleman did an experiment involving getting DNA to solve a simple 7 city "travelling salesman" problem ( finding the shortest route between cities) using parallel processing.
The DNA computer he used consisted of 7 DNA strands each representing a "city" and 14 strands representing the "roads" connecting the cities. The calculation took about 1 second to complete. Cool huh?
Another interesting tidbit about DNA is that it is estimated that one cubic centimeter of DNA can store one trillion bits of information.
Check it out at http://www.syntac.net/dl/Clam/reson.html.
Quiquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you knew all of that about the tri-corders, or the fact that I read it in rapt attention.
;-).
Star-Trek fascinates me, but I also realize how pathetic that makes me. Self-realization sucks
Bite my yammer.
fix nerve damage (I'd love to see Christopher Reeve and many others walk again someday)
Superman
create ports on the body to parts of the brain; one step closer to true virtual reality
eXistenz
cybernetic organs
Basically any sci fi movie out there
human body used as a power source (lose weight and power your computer)
The Matrix
Any other movies out there?
This stuff is probably great for making neural networks, and thus maybe making sentient computers. 2001 / 2010
You could make bio-neural gel-packs and actually make USS Voyager's computer system. I sure hope this version isn't alergic to cheese though...
We could improve on Data and make an organic android.
Imagine a beowulf cluster of such computers. Deep Thought! Lets cross-check Douglas Adams' findings and see if we come to 42 aswell.
Fix Steven Hawking? Or is his amazing intellect _caused_ by the fact his brains don't do much with his body?
Give CmdrTaco a brain transplant so he can finally post some intelligent articles?
)O(
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
Never underestimate the power of stupidity
To err is human, to moo bovine
If RNA conducts, couldn't we have a computational response to a phyisiological stimuli. If electrical DNA mapping can work then we can use dna as sort of an organic "in-wire" resistor possibly also a transistor. We could make a computer built on a blueprint of itself, oh wait.
"A socity that cannot adequately distiguish between science and magic is insufficently advanced"
Spyder
Can you tell i am an advocate of Nanotech?
READ THE DIAMOND AGE
Upeo
Fix Steven Hawking? Or is his amazing intellect _caused_ by the fact his brains don't do much with his body?
Hawking was brilliant long before he came down with ALS. Though, you would still have to think it's kept him focused on physics instead of sex, drugs, and rock&roll, like some of his contemporaries.
...for nailing all those Olympic drug cheats? I hear they're getting harder & harder to catch these days.
Why is there only one Monopolies commission?
Unfortunately, we haven't heard any more from him, so it mustn't have worked quite as well as he hoped (making this idea work requires, amongst other things, that evaluating the utility of the present configuration be very fast - if it takes you 5 minutes to determine whether this configuration works or not, this technique obviously falls down). Still was a fascinating idea, even if it was never going to do the things he was claiming for it.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Yes, then we'll have a...BRAIN
Or, maybe not.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
If there's DNA in it, then it can reproduce, right? Has anyone looked into this? Because if no one has, then someone should. That's what I'm getting at, I think.
This sounds like it could be really cool in cybernetics. I'm surprised they didn't mention it, but I suppose that's a bit pie in the sky. I wonder if this could be used to fix severe nerve damage since that works on electrical system? The possibilities racing through my mind for this sort of thing is too great to write down at once.
-Jennifer
What we need to do now is harness DNA's ability to reproduce itself. Imagine, a circuit that can actually change it's physical wiring to handle new conditions and/or optimize itself...
It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
--Scott Adams
Extrapolating this to the nth degree, and we have the basis for the Star Trek universe tricorder. In it are a whole host of different DNA based conductive sensors. When one wants to make a scan, these DNA "masters" are duplicated using normal DNA copying. The copies are then exposed to the air or material to be scanned. The individual DNA sensors are then checked to see if they changed (i.e. detected what they were each designed to detect). Correlate the results and display to the user. Once scanning is complete, break down the DNA sensors into building blocks again, and add it to the "soup" used for making DNA copies.
Anyone have a spare patent application lying around? I think I've got a winner here. Oh, and can we get Congress to extend patent terms to lifetime + 70 years like copywrites? I need to protect my children's children's livelihood! They're going to make a mint off this 50 years from now when it's practical.
What would be really cool is if there was nano-insulation around the DNA.
DNA has many fine and interesting traits, but ability to self-replicate definitely isn't one of them. A large and complicated enzyme called polymerase and very special conditions are needed for even simplest replication of DNA. Food for thought: enzymes aren't stable. We keep them in -20, -70 deg C. Typical polymerase will be degraded after a couple of hours at room temperature.
Generally, this whole debate is a mixture of ignorance, misunderstanding, writing *something* quickly without having a hint of knowledge on the subject and without reading and understanding the original text (someone mentioned cybernetics. Well, I don't see any connection here. I would even go as so far as to say that DNA-based nanoelements would be especially unsuitable for any implants, since their expected lifetime in an organism full of DNA-digesting enzymes would be measured in minutes). What is even worse is that this is perfectly representative for Slashdot.
Slashdot -- corporate & legal news, misinformation en gros. "So why read Slashdot if you don't like it?" -- well, I won't. From now on. Slashdot is boring and full of "sensations" which usually turn out to be totally uninteresting, harmless, old.
About two years ago I have found Slashdot -- as a Ph.D. student in molecular biology who is doing also casually some bioinformatics, it was exactly the kind of thing I liked. Since then, I usually started my day by reading Slashdot. You may not believe it if I tell you, but there were usually genuine and interesting news about science and technology, often with links to articles written by profis, and not recycled second-hand information some laic wrote in some boulevard magazine. And if it was labelled "funny", then it was usually a couple of orders of magnitude more hilarious then "Diablo meets the Sims", which is what I call the humour for the rest of us. OK, enough with the rant. See you in a better world.
Cheers,
January
If DNA can be used to conduct electricity (and I've heard this before, too) then couldn't you create a miniturized motor and generate force? Richard Feynman believed that we'd have to build the tools to build the tools to create microrobotics. Of course, I'm not sure what somthing like this would nessicarily be good for.
Could running a charge down a strand of DNA that was coiled into a cylinder be used as an ion pump?
Or could these tubes be used to separate out chiral molecules? (molecues that are similar the way your left and right hands are similar- in parts and connectivity, but not superimposable) This would be significant, since with many drugs (such as aspirin) both forms of the molecule cause side effects, while only one acts as medicine. A cheap method of purification would make many drugs more effective. (of course, use of enzymes would probably be better since many enzymes only produce one form of the molecule, but what the hell, I'm speculating. )
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
Now we'll have to submit a drop of blood to the electric company. Hospitals will store our entire genomes for "informational" purposes. Companies will fire us just because we have a gene for a certain disease, even if we haven't exhibited symptoms yet. If DNA technology gets any farther, a breach of privacy is imminent.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer