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Senate Pushes H1-B Visa Bill
Attack Pirate writes: "The Washington Post is reporting that Republicans in the Senate are pushing major expansion of guest worker programmer bill. The Democrats are trying to 'poison pill' the bill by giving limited rights to Hispanics who have been in the country for decades. It says Clinton might veto the bill, but he said that in 1998 but let it pass just before a fundraising trip to Silicon Valley."
Having worked with H1B visa holders in a previous job, I think the answer to your questions are that both are true. In this job, these workers were consultants and made a good rate (certainly the going rate for the area). Was the company saving money by hiring these H1B consultants? No, but they needed workers and they fit the bill.
On the other hand, I have read about companies who exploit these workers by not paying them market rates, making them work hard hours with no compensation, and so on. This tactic works as the H1B workers cannot easily change jobs, and therefore are stuck with the bad managers.
My opinion is that there is a little of both going on. There is a shortage of certain skilled positions, and if a foreign worker has those skills they will be snapped up. There is also the very human tendency to take advantage of workers who have far less power to do anything about it. No doubt both situations are in the marketplace, and the pressure for more H1B workers comes from both camps.
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Private Essayist
The company I'm with isn't really interested in hiring migrants anymore (as developers) because their experiences in the past hit on people with very poor english skills.
People are just people.... some are good, some are bad - you have to take them all individually.
... and today's pet project has
This type of rider is actually less sinister than riders that both parties want passed, but which the public or interested parties might find sinister or disgusting. Ane example was the "Work for Hire" rider (to some satellite bill) which for a time took away the rights of American musicians to their own music.
Mainstream American politicians aren't interested in debating the merits of their issues, and would rather just get their way all the time without a debate. Americans put up with it, for reasons I don't understand.All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Believe me, the last thing that you want is an efficient Congress. It would be the death of us all if every "good idea" on Capitol Hill was made into law.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Buzzword Bingo isn't the REAL reason, it's the cover-up reason, for what seems like age-discrimination, when it's really lifestyle-discrimination.
Damn these 30+-ers for getting married and having kids and refusing to put in 100+ hr weeks!
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
"There's also a shortage of common sense on software companies' HR departments. They don't seem to have a clue as to hiring "
What has the HR department got to do with it? They shouldn't get a say (other than perhaps on whether the company can afford the demands.) At my last job, it was us, the software engineers that made the choices. We were so desparate that we would talk to anybody who sent us their resume. However, most people failed the technical interview.
They're not doing what it takes?
What do you mean by that? Spending a week of evenings reading "how to program C# in 30 days" instead of sitting down to a family dinner, walking the dog, screwing his wife, reading Dr. Seuss to the kids, going rollerblading, building a patio deck, working on that '69 Camaro, peering into the night-sky with a telescope trying to locate the next planet-killer. . .
People need balanced lives to remain human. Otherwise, they become mindless corporate slaves.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore
Go have a look at the unemployment statistics. Unemployment is so horribly low at the moment there isn't any labor. Christ, my HR department is having trouble filling two positions described in my request as "Button pusher. Alternatly push two buttons. Make coffee, warm his/her chair. Full-time. No technical skill, literacy or personal hygeine required. No knowledge of Word, Office, Lotus, Panagon or any other software req'd. I'd ask for a shaved chimp, but I don't think the chimp will make me coffee.", and they're offering $12.70/hour!!
.sig: Now legally binding!
The really bad thing is not that we're bringing over all these guys from overseas, but that we're sending them back after giving them up to six years of paid training in how we do business.
Right now these workers are slave labor for the US firms who pay to bring them over here. But in the future they may very well become these firm's main competition.
I can't think of any reason why we should subsidize the creation of industry in foreign countries that my one day threaten the hegemony that the United States currently enjoys. It is this kind of short sightedness on the part of business and government that can cost this nation its empire.
I have no problem with bringing intelligent skilled workers into this country from other places. But once we have them here we should encourage them to stay. Here anything they produce benefits our economy and makes us an even greater world power than we already are. Not to mention improving the quality of our gene pool, which in the long run is even more important.
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Some of the limitations of a H1B Visa worker are:
Can only hold a specific job title
Can not be an owner of company stock
Only valid to work for 1 company
Only good for specified time (4 years?)
Essentially, the situation that this creates is an employee that can not advance, can not change jobs, and constantly has the threat of deportation looming over them.
Working conditions will never improve for domestic IT workers as long as companies can bring in overseas talent and expect them to work 24 X 7 for peanuts.... I fully support legal immigration and welcome all new comers to our country, however, this is just a way for companies to get IT workers, but not have to treat them like US citizens....
This is so typical of the politicians in the US today. Bargaining games to determine the future of the workforce in this country. The republican congress will not dare put the Government into a freeze, so Clinton will get to pass whatever he wants that is attached to the budget.
This is almost as silly as releasing the freaking oil reserve. That was clearly an attempt to bribe the American public to vote democratic. Look at the situation for what it is:
1) The oil reserves are filled by tax monies
2) The release of the oil reserves drops oil prices for the US public
In other words, this was a direct subsidy to those people who the most oil in this country. This provides a definite disincentive to conserving fossil fuels and protecting the environment (a key Democratic position).
I am hoping that some day soon, we get some of these power hungry bastards out of office. And put someone who doesn't think it is a great idea for everyone's money to pass through a bloated bureacracy before being redistributed by that bureacracy to the best lobbyists.
Although I don't think Harry Browne is presedential material, the Libertarian party will likely get my vote this year.
Yes, I know there is off-topic rambling in here, maybe it contains a bit of truth.
If it were true that technical work could be accomplished just as easily from anywhere in the world, or even anywhere in the US, then you'd expect San Francisco and Silicon Valley's housing prices to be about the same. Instead, it's the hottest real estate market in the country. Clearly, there is some value to being there if you want to work in high tech. If it were the case that INS could process H1B applications in a timely way so that people could actually move from job to job when companies fold or lay them off, without having to move their families and leave behind their homes and friends to return to another country, and if it were the case that INS could actually process green card applications (H1B is a dual-status visa, it is the first step towards a green card) in a timely way, then perhaps there wouldn't be so many people waiting for many years to get their green cards and there wouldn't be such a push on the number of H1B applications. But INS is so underfunded that green cards now take many years to be approved. Noone is "whining now that their time is up". It's about attempting to gain some control over your life.
Tech job fairs become free-for-alls with hiring representatives using bear traps, nets and stun guns to get replacements
ever get the feeling that there are more head-hunters than programmers? Damn, three years ago when my company closed it's office, I was getting calls from headhunters two days BEFORE the closure was announced internally. Must've been some damn good tea-leaves.
I say, let them EARN their bounties.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
until we're making as much as doctors, lawyers, automechanics, and other very highly sought-after providers of technical services, we ARE a poor downtrodden class.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
One major problem is turnover. Companies spend so much time filling their needs after they appear, rather than planning ahead. So they go through ooodles of interviews while the position is unfilled, and complain about a personnel shortage. Not really a shortage, just poor management.
This is a symptom of an even worse problem. Who knows a manager who wouldn't give a promotion because you were 'irreplacable where you were', even hiring newbies above you? You are a lot harder to replace when you jump ship and aren't there to train your replacement.
Or managers who won't give a 5% raise to keep you at the salary average-- but pay 20% more to pull in someone new? The manager's view: you already negotiated your salary, he can often use social engineering to keep you around at the lower salary. The reality: such ill will usually sends people packing.
once, many years ago, when I first started in this industry, I was an art-school dropout, who had hacked around cp/m and dos systems a bit, and my company was desperate for anyone to do tech support. They hired me, trained me, and here I am today. I think I did well. During my training, there were two other candidates that were hired. One guy, with a similar background to me (whom I helped get the job - he's doing promo work at trade shows now), and another guy, who had a PhD in computer science from University of Illinois (Champaign). The idiot couldn't even install a network card, and didn't understand SCSI termination when the trainer explained it to him, and when I showed it to him. He quit two days into the training.
Soylent Green is people!
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I've posted on this before.
I challenge anyone to take a reasonable look at the job listings for C/C++ programmers in any region of the country, and what will you see? A big drop in ads over the last several years.
I'm not talking about sys admins, I've talking about raw software here, folks.
Now, add that my bro works for a large aerospace company that "pads" their website with (literally) 100's of jobs, engineering jobs, that go unfilled. They get resumes, but they never interview or hire, just send a card. Why? So they can extend project milestones, put pressure on the gov for H1B, and move a number of R&D jobs overseas.
The whole H1B thing has been a scam from the beginning -- goal 1: lower/stabilize programmer wages. Goal 2: brain drain competitive countries.
Disgusting.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
The first generation is coming to the end of their six year terms and have to "disappear" for a year until they can apply again. Its difficult and expensive to convert H-1B to permanent green card. So many companies, especially the ones too cheap to do the paperwork, are starting to get new H-1Bs to replace old ones. Some the old ones are going home, some to Canada if they are from Commonwealth (curry) countries, and many hiding out in the shadow economy, long used by day laborers.
What an immigration screw-up by all parties involved.
You know what pissses me off about being on H1 visa here? The taxes. And not that anybody else is happy with them but:
H1 visa program started in 90/91. It brought here around 600,000 - 700,000 taxpayers. And I am not talking about taxes from flipping burgers. Think about what monies went to local/federal and social security funds.
And think that each of these guys bought a car, bought furniture, houses even and see how much money we circulated in the american economy.
Dunno who your former employer was, but I recall when Apple had major layoffs the headhunters were skampering about the parking lot, over on Infinite Loop, stuffing flyers under windshield wipers and shoving them into the faces of people as they carried the contents of their desks to their cars.
;-) for a hire, that's opportunity.
Sort of a feeding frenzy, but when you consider that some headhunters get ~$15,000 (what it cost to recruit me, once
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Another distortion of the program now is that many organizations are supplementing the H-1B ceiling with the shorter, but unlimited J-1 educational visas. The J-1 people are supposedly in "intern training programs", but do the same work as H-1Bs. One justification is that new J-1 people are actually learning the ropes and are in a holding tanks for H-1B visas.
So you got a logjam of J-1s waiting for H-1Bs waiting for green cards. What a mess!
On the other hand, I know some folks getting training in various schools who are excellent examples of the MCSE urban legends [insert smirk] - have the cert, but can't even format a disk from the command line. One I talked to the other day who is going for an A+ cert didn't see why they needed to know about electricity basics. (I have stopped banging my head over these folks. Cuts down on my aspirin bills.) This of course contrasts with the actual ad I saw a while back that advertised for a "Entry Level position, 5 years Experience Required".
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"Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem."
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo.
Er, did it ever occur to those thirty-plussers (of which I am one) to actually learn something and keep their skills up to date?
Oh, I see, employers should just assume that they are capable of learning new things, and then pay for their on-the-job training, rather than hiring someone that already has the experience.
Don't get me wrong... I'm with you that I'd rather have someone smart and ignorant than dumb and knowledgeable. But the employee does have some responsibility to keep the skills up-to-date.
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Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Please note that this is not just about increasing the annual number of H1B visas, but also makes some important changes about premanent residency, changing employers, etc. You can read a very short FAQ, the full text of the bill (as introduced), and much more at this site.
Also note that this is a bi-partisan bill, with Sen. Lieberman (Democratic Vice-Presidential candidate) a co-sponsor of the bill.
And the moment that we actually DO find someone worth training, we take them on and train them. We already have two trainees under our wing - to be honest we don't have enough experienced staff at the moment to complete current deliverables AND correctly train and mentor the new starters. Bear in mind that it's not just technical skills that we need to train new starters in; they also have to learn a huge amount about Credit Risk management, Derivatives trading and Investment Banking too. The candidates that we've been seeing lately just aren't worth investing the time and money in, to be quite honest.
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The gift of death metal does not smile on the good looking.
I missed that show unfortunately. As someone who entered this country (USA) on an H1B this is an interesting subject. The program offers foreign workers the opportunity to work in the states. When I came here I had no intention of staying, it was just a new experience and good resume fodder. However I met my wife here and since she's a citizen so I get to stay.
However there is a dark side to this program. Workers are definetly exploited, especially those from the Indian subcontinent. I know workers who were being billed out at $100/hr + and they were seeing $30K/year salaries. It takes a while for these workers to realize they are being screwed and get a new company to sponsor them and get more money. They can only do his if they haven't applied for they're greencard. Once that application has started you cannot change employers without starting the green card process over.
The question of there being enough workers in the US to fill the positions is also interesting. One thing I've noticed is that very few employers look objectively at the potential employees overall ability. They look for specific buzzword experience markers. I have over 10 yrs experiene in OO, but not using the Java language (mainly ObjectiveC). Many companies, despite the fact that I could pick up Java in a week, don't consider me experienced enough for Java projects. They will favor someone who has the buzzword and programs Java in a procedural fashion (since they used to do asp or whatever) over someone who has proven OO and internet skills. Basically the high tech labor shortage is not as great as it woud seem if companies where more objective in their searches.
Anyway, with the internet, foreign high tech education systems producing great talent, and the good old capatilism it's only a matter of time before the American programer salary begins it's downward trajectory as work is outsource to cheaper labor markets. Oh, it's not happening much now but give it time.
Remember the thing about the Boston tea-party? All that stuff about taxation without representation from the original group of immigrants?
Well, as a non-naturalized immigrant, you have to pay tax - but you can't vote. Taxation without representation. Those same immigrants who have now been here for a few generations now seem fit to resume taxation without representation.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
I new way to play Buzzword Bingo.
.NET architecture.
Fill in a section of your resume in a misleading way just like sites do with meta tags.
I am familiar with programs written in Visual Basic, Java and C++. I have 10 years experience with languages that look like C#. I have extensive experience with embrace-and-extinquish architectures such as Microsoft's latest
Salary Requirements: Competitive rate
You have to BS past HR.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
While I get ill thinking about all the unrelated riders that are allowed to be attached to a bill, I don't see this as the worst example.
This is an immigration issue. Many may see a big difference between H1-B tech workers and retroactive hispanic sanctuary. I'd agree, they're two different situations, but let's look at some similarities.
* H1-B workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" tech jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept. Mexican migrant workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" harvest jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept.
* H1-B workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay. Mexican migrant workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay.
This isn't quite like the attempts to attach language like "illegal to make hyperlinks" to methamphetamine-related legislation, as a rider on a banking omnibus bill, which, coincidentally, allows for stealthy search and seizure.
[
Well, first off, it would be Congress that would amend the laws to offer residency visas, not the president. That aside, this is an outstanding idea. I know (and work) with many people trapped in H1-B hell. Even worse off are the poor individuals who are brave enough to try and make it through the tangle of the immigration beauracracy to try and become citizens... that takes 4-5 years, nowadays; and if you change employers, then you need to go back to square one and start from the beginning. Which means that if you come to the US on an H1-B and want to become a naturalized citizen, you had better love your job - because if you leave; or if they fire you; or lay you off; or if the company gets bought out, or goes under... even if you're a day away from getting your green card, you're SOL.
All this makes a mockery of the H1-B and naturalization programs.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
". Just because you're forty doesn't mean you automatically deserve to earn twice what a 25-year old would earn. If a 25-year-old is able to do your job for half price, why should you stop him."
I agree. I got pissed off with one of my previous employers. I had to fight them for pay rises. They kept telling me that there wasn't enough money. Then of course they went ahead and hired a couple of people with 10 years more experience that me, and 15-20 years my age. The frustrating part was I had more ability than them, but they were paid 3x more. It's time to end this BS corporate attitude (eh, up the people!) where pay is based on experience... performance and ability should be the metric. E.g., a senior C++ programmer with many years experience shouldn't have been telling/arguing with me that it's okay to double delete, and that he'd done it just to be sure there weren't any memory leaks!
"I am glad you got paid well. The H1-B people I work with are paid less than what they were promised before moving here and less than what the government was told. When they complained to HR about it they were told to put up with it or go home."
Yes, when I wasn't happy with a mere 15% pay rise I threatened to quit. Of course, it helped being young and single: I didn't have so much to lose or so much personal responsibilty. Thankfully they didn't call my bluff as I really didn't want to have look for a job. You really have to stand up and speak out for yourself, which although is very American, comes hard to people from some cultures.
I don't how the HR department at these places would react if informed of the consequences should the INS or Justice Dept. find out what is going on.
"As far as age discrimination is concerned, the problem is that if anything on your CV hints that you are over 30 you won't get past HR to the interview. This is often the case, regardless of what skills you may claim to have."
I haven't seen any of that in the IT area (yet). Maybe all of my co-workers at this and previous jobs are open-minded. A lot of people at my previous job commented on what a pleasant team we had, and how well such diversity worked.
However, I have seen what you talk of with regards to my father back home in the UK. After 25 yrs in the RAF he quit and retrained. He's had a very hard decade, and is still doing the biochemstry work that now bores him to tears at the local hospital, just because it pays better than anything else.
Like so many other statistics, you have to learn how to read them in order to extract the truth. The truth in this case is that most potential IT workers gave up on getting those salaried jobs because the pay was low, hours long, and future uncertain. The unemployment statistics only indicate who is still looking for work, not the ones who have decided that going self-employed is a more-secure way to go, or ended up in another sector of the employment pool ditto.
How many taxi drivers are in the pool of IT employees, but aren't counted because they are otherwise employed? I remember when the job market was so poor that PhDs were driving cabs to feed their families until the job market straightened out. I guess I'm just showing my age...
From the HR and CEO POV: more workers to choose from, keep recruiting costs and salaries down.
From the worker bee POV: lower salaries, more competition for the job (not really much of a problem in high tech)
If you haven't been to a Westech in SV, you should pop into one if you're ever in the neighborhood. Meatmarket is pretty descriptive
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Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
What, precisely, is the "nation's interest", as distinct from the private interests of its citizens, and why should the "nation's interest" take precedence. I'm undecided on the H1B issue, but I don't like your Volkstaat reasoning.
The best way to guarantee that is to have as many qualified people to compete for the job as possible.
This is amazingly debatable; it could quite easily be possible that people are more productive when they're actually relaxing and thinking about a problem rather than constantly watching their back trying to save their job. And in any case, if you expand the labour pool, you have no guarantee that the employer's strategy will be to hold wages constant and take higher quality; they might just decide to lower wages and cut quality.
Geek economics, like geek politics, is best avoided.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
I was not saying that Browne was not intelligent. I agree with most of his policy ideas and think they would be great in practice.
My problem with Harry Browne as President of the US is that he has no in field experience (so might say that is good thing).
I want to elect a man who is not only intelligent, well spoken, and I agree with, but also a man that has some experience in politics. Preferabbly on the national level.
Out of the rest of the field, Gore is clearly the most qualified by experience, but I think his policies will lead this country exactly the wrong way.
All that said, I will probably vote Browne because all the rest are too far from my views.
That aside, this is an outstanding idea. I know (and work) with many people trapped in H1-B hell. Even worse off are the poor individuals who are brave enough to try and make it through the tangle of the immigration beauracracy to try and become citizens... that takes 4-5 years, nowadays; and if you change employers, then you need to go back to square one and start from the beginning.
Bring me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses... and I will shaft them any way I can.
Actually its even worse than that. You first have to gain permanent residence status (aka a Green Card). This took me three years. After that, its a minimum of 5 year before you can even take the citizenship exam. While you are applying for your Green Card, you cannot change employer. If you do, you have to restart your Green Card application from scratch. You cannot start a Green Card application for at least 1 year after entering the US on an H1B visa. Your H1B visa is only valid for 6 years, so you have a fairly short window of opportunity to get a Green Card before your H1B runs out and you are thrown out of the US.
Sailing over the event horizon
Instead of expanding the program, Clinton could start offering HB-1 veterans residency visas. That way the market gets more programmers (nobody gets sent back), but since they have more bargaining power, they'll use and thus not push down the pay scales for the rest of us.
Part of my work involves immigration law. A great deal of woe befalls legal residents of the US as a result of the 1996 IIRAIRA ("Immigration Reform Act of 1996") and Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (AEDPA).
Among other things, the 1996 law mandates "administrative detention" (i.e. jail) for virtually all aliens in removal proceedings (sometimes for years), without regard to flight risk, community support, or family needs. The 1996 law took away second chances for first offenders, making deportation a simple "check the box" affair, regardless of the special situation ivolved in individual cases. The 1996 law has "jurisdiction stripping" provisions meant to bar review of INS/DOJ decisions by federal judges (although lawyers have managed to have some of these provisions declared unconstitutional). The 1996 laws eliminated Section 245(i), forcing many with approved "green cards" to leave to US to pick them up, often subjecting them to the new 10 year bars to return to the US.
These things can happen to people who have lived in the US for decades, or who where brought here by their parents when they were small children.
US immigration law is a complex and difficult subject too often subjected to politicking over sound policy. The 1996 changes removed many safety valves and due process considerations that lead to truly scary situations. Labling this as a "hispanic ploy" meant to be a poison pill is disingenuous. There are real issues here.
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In a hundred-mile march,
"Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers"
No. There is a shortage of *good* programmers. Any old monkey can jump on the band-wagon and get a piece of paper proclaiming their Mickey-mouse diploma/degree from the local community college. That doesn't make them competent.
"The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. "
I agree. Although there are plenty of people around looking for jobs, only a minority actually fit the bill.
"Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer. "
Hiring foreign workers is not quick. It takes at least 2 mos for an H1 application to process. My first one took 4.5. Foreigners hired since May of this year (I believe) are still waiting due to the annual caps being reached. Finally, when I was on an H1, I wasn't cheap - and don't forget that we must be paid at least the prevailing wage.
"There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job"
... and a lot of them aren't doing what it takes to maintain their skillset and keep competitive in this rapidly [rev]evolving business. Infact, many are just plain lazy and had it easy for too long. I have many friends in the high-tech business all over 30, and some of 40. Those people are the best software engineers I've worked with.
The issue that comes up every time there's a story about H-1Bs is that many people believe that H-1B workers are simply a source cheap labour for US companies. I'm here as a Canuck on a TN visa (an altogether different beast), but a couple of my co-workers are on H-1Bs and I have read up extensively on both visas.
In any case, this bit about H-1B workers being cheap labour is not entirely true. In fact, INS regulations require that companies pay visa workers equivalently to citizens specifically to ensure that Americans fill the jobs first. Before an H-1B is approved by the INS, a whack of documentation has to be submitted from the company that is petitionning on the worker's behalf. In this documentation is included the salary offered to the visa applicant and the average salary paid to a non-visa worker in the same position. The company must also provide evidence that they could not fill the position with an American worker -- usually this can be done simply by advertising the job, or providing evidence that when the position was advertised, it could not be filled by an American.
If there is a significant discrepancy between what the employer is paying its visa workers and what it is paying American citizens, the company may be found by the INS to be in violation of immigration regulations, and face penalties. I believe Intel may have actually faced an investigation related to this, but don't quote me on that -- I could be totally wrong.
The entire H-1B issue was covered, if I remember correctly, in a past issue of Communications of the ACM. The article was well-balanced (ie. didn't really favour either point of view on H-1Bs) and would be a useful read for anyone considering getting all excited and rabid over this issue. If anyone can provide a link, please post it.
In any case, a sensible long term solution is to put more funding into Computer Science education in the US and crank up the number of American C.Sc. graduates. Bringing in visa workers is a temporary band-aid solution to a much larger problem.
This is the main reason very fiew people change H-1 jobs, especially after couple of years (and couple of years closer to the boot limit). As soon as you jump ship, your PR application is terminated.
Companies certainly use this arrangement to their advantage. How? Simple - just imagine to have an engineer who cannot quit. Do whatever you want with him. Total freedom for HR Catberts. You cannot seriously undercut him, say down to $20K (it is illegal). But you can pay $40K, $45K for a very expirienced guy where otherwise you would pay $70K.
If anyone makes a fuss, you a) say his expirience and performance was not good; b) suck it up, but later mishandle his PR in some way. I started at $55K and boy I was lucky.
[From a former H-1B holder :)]
If you're good enough you have no fear of the competition.
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I live in California, and work for a large software company, currently on an L-1 visa.
My visa allows me to work for this company, and this company only. My wife is not allowed to work at all, she is allowed to accompany me, and live in the US with me. An H1-B gives you slightly more rights, but even then it is not that fantastic.
Should I decide that I do not want to work for this company, I have ten days to vacate the country. This would give an unscrupulous company the right to treat you like dirt...
The move here cost thousands of dollars, no sorry, tens of thousands of dollars, both to the company that I work for , and to us personally.
The major downside is that I have no credit history.
You want to get a car, try an APR in the teens, you want to insure it, how long have you held a US licence for ? OK, that will be six times the cost then.
You want a bank account, no overdraft facility for a year.
You want a credit card - you need to place a security deposit equal to the credit limit on it then.
No chance of unseccured credit for the next year or so.
I even had to re-take my driving tests.
You have little or no "status" in the country.
It was a huge personal sacrifice to come here, fortunatly I am treated very well by my employer, because they understand how committed we are to this. However it is not the land of milk and honey that many people living outside of the US feel that it may be.
The H1-B is only a small section of the difficulties in moving over here. I welcome this move, but will warn everyone that is contemplating it, that it will cost you thousands of dollars.
Oh yes, I do love living here....
./nf
Not Fragile
Anybody else get the feeling that our representatives in Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, are more concerned with their petty squabbles and party lines than actually getting anything interesting done with the country?
Every time I read a story like this I see one party putting something forward, and the other one trying to sink it with gimpy tactics like this Hispanic rights limitations clause.
Why can't we all just get along?
<single tear>
I think we should get more foreign workers, it will only help America grow, and if a foreign country can't appreciate their most dynamic workers, too bad.
America was built on immigration, and immigrants provide a much needed spark to the American economy. Think of how many products and businesses immigrants have launched, once they've come to a land where hard work is appreciated, not denigrated. I can think of the Indian that invented Hotmail, and Linus, too, of course.
If a foreign country can't find a place for an ambitious foreign worker, too bad for them. If their culture is caste ridden, or against strivers, or a socialist disaster, an ambitious computer workers aren't appreciated,they should come here. Too bad if that foreign's country GDP tanks, they should get rid of their old, quaint unproductive customs.
This is ludicrous. One of my coworkers is trying to get his visa renewed (in other words, helping fill the supposed "shortage" of IT workers). The agencies he has to deal with refuse to deal with him in an expedient matter. He's pissed off and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't leave for greener pastures. C'mon, our government has to make up its mind: are we in a shortage (then take timely action on entry forms) or not (then why string em along?!).
Don't believe anything I say. I crash test crack pipes for a living.
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore.
According to whom? And by what standard? The people who want to hire these people clearly have a need for more labor, or they wouldn't go to the expense of importing them.
I want a fair and equal chance in my own country instead of getting shafted.
What about the "fair and equal" chance of those not fortunate enough to grow up here in the USA? Are there interests irrelevant simply because they don't vote here? You have more than a fair and equal chance. If you're like most of us in the tech industry, you have it ludicrously easy-- getting paid handsomely for work many of us would do in our spare time even if we weren't getting paid. It's the height of arrogance to pretend that we're a poor downtrodden class that can't afford to compete with a few foreigners.
I for one welcome more high tech workers to the US. If they can do useful work, they have every right to come here and make a living. Those who want to keep them out in order to further inflate their own paychecks are narrow-minded and selfish.
Well, folks, the giant software companies have done it again... and the quest for the disposable programmer with 2 years of experience continues. Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers. A major reason why so much software sucks, is because its written by some guy with his brand new AS in Visual Basic. There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo. The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. That comes from experience. People who understand how programs work have no trouble learning a new way to do the same old thing. Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer.
Sorry for the rant, but this REALLY bugs me
-- Rich
Free your mind and your Ass will follow -- George Clinton
All right, another one of those stories where Slashdot turns into the American Xenophobic Society!!
Another chance to watch those who normally cry foul at the slightest threat to their own freedom turn into a bunch of zealous gatekeepers for fear of a little competition.
And so much damn snow the poor Brit will freeze to death just getting to work.
"The words of the prophets are written on the Slashdot walls."
Slave Labor Not To Be Found
Bring Them From Taiwan
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Frankly, with employers being flooded with this kind of assclownery, I think my prospects for finding and keeping a good job are high.
---
I am the dot in slashdot.org
Make that "...harvest jobs that aren't paying the minimum wage so they wouldn't be legal anyhow, even if they hired citizens." And the Democritters keep pushing the minimum wage up every year.
This isn't quite like the attempts to attach language like "illegal to make hyperlinks" to methamphetamine-related legislation
Well, I'll agree with you there. This is a lot more on-topic than a lot of other riders.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Tech job fairs become free-for-alls with hiring representatives using bear traps, nets and stun guns to get replacements
A girl who once glanced in the window of a Gateway store is elligible for tech support
Property values in Santa Clara drop to almost sane levels
High tech moves operations overseas, the next Wen Ho Lee may actually be working in Taiwan
Low math and science grades, across the country, are prosecuted
The NASDAQ hits 0 for the first, and last, time
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar