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Senate Pushes H1-B Visa Bill
Attack Pirate writes: "The Washington Post is reporting that Republicans in the Senate are pushing major expansion of guest worker programmer bill. The Democrats are trying to 'poison pill' the bill by giving limited rights to Hispanics who have been in the country for decades. It says Clinton might veto the bill, but he said that in 1998 but let it pass just before a fundraising trip to Silicon Valley."
We have plenty of labor in the United States and we don't really need anymore
Go have a look at the unemployment statistics. Unemployment is so horribly low at the moment there isn't any labor. Christ, my HR department is having trouble filling two positions described in my request as "Button pusher. Alternatly push two buttons. Make coffee, warm his/her chair. Full-time. No technical skill, literacy or personal hygeine required. No knowledge of Word, Office, Lotus, Panagon or any other software req'd. I'd ask for a shaved chimp, but I don't think the chimp will make me coffee.", and they're offering $12.70/hour!!
.sig: Now legally binding!
Some of the limitations of a H1B Visa worker are:
Can only hold a specific job title
Can not be an owner of company stock
Only valid to work for 1 company
Only good for specified time (4 years?)
Essentially, the situation that this creates is an employee that can not advance, can not change jobs, and constantly has the threat of deportation looming over them.
Working conditions will never improve for domestic IT workers as long as companies can bring in overseas talent and expect them to work 24 X 7 for peanuts.... I fully support legal immigration and welcome all new comers to our country, however, this is just a way for companies to get IT workers, but not have to treat them like US citizens....
This is so typical of the politicians in the US today. Bargaining games to determine the future of the workforce in this country. The republican congress will not dare put the Government into a freeze, so Clinton will get to pass whatever he wants that is attached to the budget.
This is almost as silly as releasing the freaking oil reserve. That was clearly an attempt to bribe the American public to vote democratic. Look at the situation for what it is:
1) The oil reserves are filled by tax monies
2) The release of the oil reserves drops oil prices for the US public
In other words, this was a direct subsidy to those people who the most oil in this country. This provides a definite disincentive to conserving fossil fuels and protecting the environment (a key Democratic position).
I am hoping that some day soon, we get some of these power hungry bastards out of office. And put someone who doesn't think it is a great idea for everyone's money to pass through a bloated bureacracy before being redistributed by that bureacracy to the best lobbyists.
Although I don't think Harry Browne is presedential material, the Libertarian party will likely get my vote this year.
Yes, I know there is off-topic rambling in here, maybe it contains a bit of truth.
There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo.
Er, did it ever occur to those thirty-plussers (of which I am one) to actually learn something and keep their skills up to date?
Oh, I see, employers should just assume that they are capable of learning new things, and then pay for their on-the-job training, rather than hiring someone that already has the experience.
Don't get me wrong... I'm with you that I'd rather have someone smart and ignorant than dumb and knowledgeable. But the employee does have some responsibility to keep the skills up-to-date.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Please note that this is not just about increasing the annual number of H1B visas, but also makes some important changes about premanent residency, changing employers, etc. You can read a very short FAQ, the full text of the bill (as introduced), and much more at this site.
Also note that this is a bi-partisan bill, with Sen. Lieberman (Democratic Vice-Presidential candidate) a co-sponsor of the bill.
While I get ill thinking about all the unrelated riders that are allowed to be attached to a bill, I don't see this as the worst example.
This is an immigration issue. Many may see a big difference between H1-B tech workers and retroactive hispanic sanctuary. I'd agree, they're two different situations, but let's look at some similarities.
* H1-B workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" tech jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept. Mexican migrant workers are brought in to take care of "short/limited term" harvest jobs that aren't paying what local talent would accept.
* H1-B workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay. Mexican migrant workers are forced to leave and have unusually draconian limitations on becoming naturalized citizens; they often slip off the radar to stay in the USA with newformed families beyond their officially sanctioned stay.
This isn't quite like the attempts to attach language like "illegal to make hyperlinks" to methamphetamine-related legislation, as a rider on a banking omnibus bill, which, coincidentally, allows for stealthy search and seizure.
[
Like so many other statistics, you have to learn how to read them in order to extract the truth. The truth in this case is that most potential IT workers gave up on getting those salaried jobs because the pay was low, hours long, and future uncertain. The unemployment statistics only indicate who is still looking for work, not the ones who have decided that going self-employed is a more-secure way to go, or ended up in another sector of the employment pool ditto.
How many taxi drivers are in the pool of IT employees, but aren't counted because they are otherwise employed? I remember when the job market was so poor that PhDs were driving cabs to feed their families until the job market straightened out. I guess I'm just showing my age...
What, precisely, is the "nation's interest", as distinct from the private interests of its citizens, and why should the "nation's interest" take precedence. I'm undecided on the H1B issue, but I don't like your Volkstaat reasoning.
The best way to guarantee that is to have as many qualified people to compete for the job as possible.
This is amazingly debatable; it could quite easily be possible that people are more productive when they're actually relaxing and thinking about a problem rather than constantly watching their back trying to save their job. And in any case, if you expand the labour pool, you have no guarantee that the employer's strategy will be to hold wages constant and take higher quality; they might just decide to lower wages and cut quality.
Geek economics, like geek politics, is best avoided.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
Instead of expanding the program, Clinton could start offering HB-1 veterans residency visas. That way the market gets more programmers (nobody gets sent back), but since they have more bargaining power, they'll use and thus not push down the pay scales for the rest of us.
"Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers"
No. There is a shortage of *good* programmers. Any old monkey can jump on the band-wagon and get a piece of paper proclaiming their Mickey-mouse diploma/degree from the local community college. That doesn't make them competent.
"The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. "
I agree. Although there are plenty of people around looking for jobs, only a minority actually fit the bill.
"Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer. "
Hiring foreign workers is not quick. It takes at least 2 mos for an H1 application to process. My first one took 4.5. Foreigners hired since May of this year (I believe) are still waiting due to the annual caps being reached. Finally, when I was on an H1, I wasn't cheap - and don't forget that we must be paid at least the prevailing wage.
"There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job"
... and a lot of them aren't doing what it takes to maintain their skillset and keep competitive in this rapidly [rev]evolving business. Infact, many are just plain lazy and had it easy for too long. I have many friends in the high-tech business all over 30, and some of 40. Those people are the best software engineers I've worked with.
The issue that comes up every time there's a story about H-1Bs is that many people believe that H-1B workers are simply a source cheap labour for US companies. I'm here as a Canuck on a TN visa (an altogether different beast), but a couple of my co-workers are on H-1Bs and I have read up extensively on both visas.
In any case, this bit about H-1B workers being cheap labour is not entirely true. In fact, INS regulations require that companies pay visa workers equivalently to citizens specifically to ensure that Americans fill the jobs first. Before an H-1B is approved by the INS, a whack of documentation has to be submitted from the company that is petitionning on the worker's behalf. In this documentation is included the salary offered to the visa applicant and the average salary paid to a non-visa worker in the same position. The company must also provide evidence that they could not fill the position with an American worker -- usually this can be done simply by advertising the job, or providing evidence that when the position was advertised, it could not be filled by an American.
If there is a significant discrepancy between what the employer is paying its visa workers and what it is paying American citizens, the company may be found by the INS to be in violation of immigration regulations, and face penalties. I believe Intel may have actually faced an investigation related to this, but don't quote me on that -- I could be totally wrong.
The entire H-1B issue was covered, if I remember correctly, in a past issue of Communications of the ACM. The article was well-balanced (ie. didn't really favour either point of view on H-1Bs) and would be a useful read for anyone considering getting all excited and rabid over this issue. If anyone can provide a link, please post it.
In any case, a sensible long term solution is to put more funding into Computer Science education in the US and crank up the number of American C.Sc. graduates. Bringing in visa workers is a temporary band-aid solution to a much larger problem.
I live in California, and work for a large software company, currently on an L-1 visa.
My visa allows me to work for this company, and this company only. My wife is not allowed to work at all, she is allowed to accompany me, and live in the US with me. An H1-B gives you slightly more rights, but even then it is not that fantastic.
Should I decide that I do not want to work for this company, I have ten days to vacate the country. This would give an unscrupulous company the right to treat you like dirt...
The move here cost thousands of dollars, no sorry, tens of thousands of dollars, both to the company that I work for , and to us personally.
The major downside is that I have no credit history.
You want to get a car, try an APR in the teens, you want to insure it, how long have you held a US licence for ? OK, that will be six times the cost then.
You want a bank account, no overdraft facility for a year.
You want a credit card - you need to place a security deposit equal to the credit limit on it then.
No chance of unseccured credit for the next year or so.
I even had to re-take my driving tests.
You have little or no "status" in the country.
It was a huge personal sacrifice to come here, fortunatly I am treated very well by my employer, because they understand how committed we are to this. However it is not the land of milk and honey that many people living outside of the US feel that it may be.
The H1-B is only a small section of the difficulties in moving over here. I welcome this move, but will warn everyone that is contemplating it, that it will cost you thousands of dollars.
Oh yes, I do love living here....
./nf
Not Fragile
Anybody else get the feeling that our representatives in Congress, Republican and Democrat alike, are more concerned with their petty squabbles and party lines than actually getting anything interesting done with the country?
Every time I read a story like this I see one party putting something forward, and the other one trying to sink it with gimpy tactics like this Hispanic rights limitations clause.
Why can't we all just get along?
<single tear>
I think we should get more foreign workers, it will only help America grow, and if a foreign country can't appreciate their most dynamic workers, too bad.
America was built on immigration, and immigrants provide a much needed spark to the American economy. Think of how many products and businesses immigrants have launched, once they've come to a land where hard work is appreciated, not denigrated. I can think of the Indian that invented Hotmail, and Linus, too, of course.
If a foreign country can't find a place for an ambitious foreign worker, too bad for them. If their culture is caste ridden, or against strivers, or a socialist disaster, an ambitious computer workers aren't appreciated,they should come here. Too bad if that foreign's country GDP tanks, they should get rid of their old, quaint unproductive customs.
Well, folks, the giant software companies have done it again... and the quest for the disposable programmer with 2 years of experience continues. Face it, there is no shortage of programmers, there's just a shortage of cheap programmers. A major reason why so much software sucks, is because its written by some guy with his brand new AS in Visual Basic. There are thousands of 30+ (REAL ancient) programmers out there having trouble getting a job, because their resume doesn't win buzzword bingo. The HARD part of programming isn't happening to know the syntax of the latest hip code doo-dad, but rather in knowing how to think about problem solving. That comes from experience. People who understand how programs work have no trouble learning a new way to do the same old thing. Unfortunately, time-to-market/end-of-quarter thinking in large corporations impels managers to seek the cheapest, fastest solution... and it looks like its a foreign programmer.
Sorry for the rant, but this REALLY bugs me
-- Rich
Free your mind and your Ass will follow -- George Clinton
Tech job fairs become free-for-alls with hiring representatives using bear traps, nets and stun guns to get replacements
A girl who once glanced in the window of a Gateway store is elligible for tech support
Property values in Santa Clara drop to almost sane levels
High tech moves operations overseas, the next Wen Ho Lee may actually be working in Taiwan
Low math and science grades, across the country, are prosecuted
The NASDAQ hits 0 for the first, and last, time
--
Chief Frog Inspector
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar