Debian On Compaq's iPaq Handheld

ArsonSmith writes: "It seems that at primates.helixcode.com they have been able to get Debian GNU/Linux up and running on the Compaq iPaq PocketPC. This seems to be the first main distribution to be running on a handheld." The Debian Way may sometimes seem ponderous and conservative, but obviously that's not always the case. How'd you like to be able to apt-get new apps on your PDA? This is a detailed description which should interest anyone lucky enough to have one of these cuties.

Comments

PocketLinux

[Ondo]

While many people have mentioned Handhelds.org, I just thought I'd point out that Transmeta is working on PocketLinux, a Linux distribution for handhelds, and is initially targeting the V-Tech Helio and the iPaq. Information at wwww.pocketlinux.com.

Re:PocketLinux

[Delirium Tremens]

While many people have mentioned Handhelds.org, I just thought I'd point out that Transvirtual is working on PocketLinux, a Linux distribution for handhelds, and is initially targeting the V-Tech Helio and the iPaq. Information at wwww.pocketlinux.com.

Why on earth is this a 5, insightful (non-troll)

[sleight]

Guys,

Seriously, what the hairy heck is happenning to /. such tht a "funny" post like this, out of 22 comments, is the only one rated a "5" and, not only that, but is categorized incorrectly. Moderators, clearly you are doing something wrong here...

Specifically speaking, Moderators, read -1 on up and please don't read them sorted. Quality posts should be "5"s and not drivel like this.

Keyboard based PDA's

[infiniti99]

I saw quite a few posts from people wondering why in the world anyone would want Linux on a PDA -- the main reason being the interface. You can't run shell commands using graffiti. Hacking in vi? Forget it.

But what about Psion? Has everyone forgotten about the Psion handhelds? They have *keyboards*. And the Revo model isn't much bigger than a Palm VII. Now that is a PDA I can imagine Linux on. So does Linux belong on a PDA? Well, if you have one with a keyboard then maybe. Although I've never heard of anyone putting Linux on a Psion, it seems like a much better target to shoot for than any Palm style handheld.

Of course, the Psions already have a pretty good OS on them. All you really need to use is the Telnet program and then you can remotely access a Linux machine anyway. I actually like it better this way, since I can start remote tasks and then disconnect my Psion from the 'net (all via my Nokia 8890). Remote Linux is the way to go. It turns your PDA into the power of whatever server you connected to.

Of course, this only applies to PDA's with a *keyboard* and a *telnet* application. Frankly, I don't understand why the Psions are never mentioned here on Slashdot. With all the hype about Unix here, you'd think everyone would be using a Psion by now. Try rebuilding a kernel from your Palm toy.

Re:When all you have is a hammer....

[scrytch]

> 1) Now, let's look at Linux. No graphical interface, natively anyway. To get the GUI, you need an extra layer of programming

Look, I hate X as much as the next guy, but despite MS's best efforts, windows uses an "extra layer of programming" as well, called GDI. Yes, it's been made to run in kernel space, and Linux has framebuffers that do as well -- it's not a big stretch to imagine moving other display code into the kernel as well (KGI anyone?). X sucks, but there is nothing about Linux OR Windows that magically does graphics without a graphics API.

And get over your self-important persecution complex about "I'm going to get moderated down over this". Either it happens and you leave slashdot for kuro5hin or advogato, or it doesn't, but it's gotten really old to read this prediction of moderation behavior over and over.

You'd have to port anyway.

[Thag]

Even if you had hardware compatibility, the interface is sufficiently different that you would want apps written for it anyway.

For example, you really only want something to jot notes in a square window, not a full-fledged word processor, because a handheld (Palm-style at least) is a crappy word processing platform anyway. Think notepad vs typewriter.

People tend to use handhelds differently, too. I find I use my Palm in lots of short bursts, not for a prolonged period of time. Thus, the simple fast interface is a lot better than a complicated power user interface.

Anyway, there have been handhelds that were able to run DOS and Windows programs, I think HP made one, and they didn't set the world on fire. They never really took off because the machines were underpowered compared to a PC and the tiny screens and keyboards were awkward to use.

Jon

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:chalk up another one...

[imp]

NetBSD/hpcmips has been running on the MIPS based Windows CE for about a year now. It has been booting on these devices longer than Linux has been!

The big problem is that There's a Linux bias on slashdot. They don't report these sorts of things too often.

*BSD is actually easier to port to new architectures because it has been ported to many architectures.

Re:Heh, no pictures.

[jjr]

(Gawd. I wonder what writing perl would be like on a Palm, using Graffiti, in an airplane that was in turbulence.)

You would write yourself a readable perl program :-)

Re:the more popular the better

[arivanov]

OK, counterpoint:

Most of people with Palms hardly use the PDAs for something more complicated than schedule keeping and notes taking. This limits the public to geeky mgmt types (yes I know there are companies that have fully blown ordering systems running on a palm, but they are exemptions, not rules).

Putting linux on a PDA as long it works with M$ outlook, Lotus Notes and/or OpenMail covers the same market as well as the people who do on site repairs, remote maintenance, network management.

I do not have a PDA and I will not buy one until I can do usefull stuff with it - namely have a proper network stack and a proper set of tools to do my job (i.e. fix networks and applications). So until I see a PDA with a PCMCIA slot or anything similar where I can stick an ether and/or a wireless lan I will drag my laptop with me.

Obviously, I would prefer to have something that fits in a pocket and does the same job.

So it is not a matter of being open, it is neither because you can. The reason is that it will be a dream tool for lots of geeky jobs (as well as have its classic functions).

Re:Because it's there...

[DGolden]

The iPAQ palmtop has a 200MHz processor and 64MByte RAM. That's higher powered than my last PC, and much faster than my good ol' Amiga (which is still in active service)

I would contend that the tech is there, now, the distinction has blurred, and the tech is likely to be based on the processor in an iPAQ, which is a pretty popular CPU.

Linux is just a kernel - you don't /have/ to run all sorts of Server-type stuff on top of it, it's just people normally plonk the entire GNU Suite plus the X Window System on top of it.

I, for one, agree that a full blown server installation of linux is near-pointless on such a machine (unless you want a mobile plug-in unit for a (web-site replacement based) disinformation campaign...imagine a james-bond esque figure leaving the iPAQ behind a table tapped into a spare network socket, hijacking IP packets... the mind boggles)

- But a palmtop-optimised one would be VERY useful - opening an XTerm on my palmtop connecting to a server I'm adminning over my mobile phone (I'm in Ireland, so we've had digital mobile phones for ages), for example.

I kludged VNC onto a (16MHz, 16MByte) Psion Series 5mx a few months ago - and thus actually opened up a full X desktop on my Psion.

This is tremendously useful for all sorts of things (at the time, I was messing with development releases of XFree 4, so each time my gfx card crashed, I just reset it remotely, without having to reboot the rest of the system.)

Since Linux already has all the remote admin infrastructure in place, it'd be great on a palmtop.

Heh, no pictures.

[Talonius]

Where's my pictures?

I want Linux on a Palm. *blink* Nothing like trying to type in command line commands using Graffiti.

(Gawd. I wonder what writing perl would be like on a Palm, using Graffiti, in an airplane that was in turbulence.)

-- Talonius

"The Debian Way"

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian showed that OpenSource (or as those offices say rightly Free Software) could be commercially viable and profitable when people said that Stallman was a Communist quack with delusions of being Marx.

That part of the Debian community is quite proud of that fact and rightly so. Debian's iPaq development came much later in the game... and i dont know of anyone around Debian who would say otherwise.

Must be a slow week and time for sensationalism sells (Helixcode that is).

Re:"The Debian Way"

[Tor]

Debian/ARM was actually started with the Netwinder, about 2 years ago. That's when/why I joined the Debian project, and can only attest to the fact that the more you know about Debian, the more likely you are to be using it for the rest of your life.

"RedHat Network", "Microsoft.NET", and even *BSD get a lot of their groundwork/ideas from the Debian playground. Indeed, most of the action and futuristic designs happen right there. Probably more software come out of the Debian project nowadays than anywhere else, including Microsoft and GNU.

So, the iPAC distribution is not at all surprising. Already, Debian exists on more platforms than any other distribution.

i rooted your palm

[p4r4d0x]

Hmm...now we can root other people's palms during boring english lectures :)


__

the more popular the better

[funkycat]

Well lets hope that the companies that make handhelds, see that there IS a market for handhelds that run linux or at the very least can be made to run linux (not everyone may want linux on their portable.. i dont see why though) otherwise this is an interesting factor to look for for those of us that want to get a handheld but dont.

some [related] advice for handheld developers

[evilviper]

I really don't understand why it should be necessary to *port* programs over to handhelds. The Intel style chipset is versitile enough to work in a handheld easily enough, and Intel componets are certainly cheap enough to use.

Just think about it... how popular would notebooks be if they wern't intel compatible? I think we've gone down the wrong road with handhelds, and the first to turn things around will be the top dog for the next decade as handheld's poplarity explodes.

Re:some [related] advice for handheld developers

[mistered]

The Blackberry is actually made by RIM (Compaq OEMs it). Yeah, it does have an i386 in it, but it's a very customised 386. RIM & Intel did a lot of work to get a 386 to run on AA batteries.

Have a look at RIM's "Developer Zone" and specifically their FAQs. The neat thing about the Blackberry is that it runs Windows .DLLs. RIM provides a simulator that runs on Windows, and provides the same API that the pager does. Instead of interfacing with actual hardware, though, the simulator's API interfaces with a virtual LCD, a virtual keypad, etc. The exact same code runs natively on the development machine and on the pager itself.

Re:some [related] advice for handheld developers

[Drakino]

The Intel style chipset is versitile enough to work in a handheld easily enough, and Intel componets are certainly cheap enough to use.

The Compaq iPaq Blackberry wireless e-mail PDA does use an i386 chip inside of it. I definitly have to agree to some extent that it would make running programs on the PDA easier if it had an Intel x86 chip inside, but one problem. The device will be years behind current processing power, and storage will be an issue. Once you dig up Word 6.0, it would run, but Word 6.0 (And other programs) are designed for a keyboard and mouse interface with a decent resolution. Work would still have to be done to change the UI to make it run on a small screen, and by then, it would have been easier to instead make PocketWord, and throw in the benefit of compatibility with 95, 97, and 2000 .doc files.

I don't see a problem with all handhelds running non Intel x86 chips for now. Once we start all using virtual monitors on these, then it will be useful.

Re:some [related] advice for handheld developers

[ajv]

Because you're not thinking MIPS per watt and you're not thinking long term.

Intel x86 and x86-compatible CPUs and associated bits n pieces are currently very power hungry. This will change - eventually, but then comes part two of my assertion: ia64.

The first generation of ia64 will not be a handheld or laptop processor for a long time because it is first and foremost a replacement for the Xeon line of processors. But in time, ia64 will become the preferred binary instruction set due to sheer weight of numbers.

Making software portable now, will help both the seamless transition between x86, x86-64 and ia64. Or indeed platforms like my Alpha.

Lastly, a variety of CPU vendors allows for much cheaper CPU's. Do you think that you'd have Celerons for not much money if viable competition did not exist? I don't think so either.

How is this useful compaired to handhelds.org?

[Drakino]

All I want to ask is why? A desktop distribution (or server) made to run on a PocketPC. Requires constant network connection, and another machine. Seems similar to, oh, WinCE 1.0 and 2.0. Copy Windows 9x interface to PDA, expect it to be useful.

Compair this to the handhelds.org project to get PDA like features running on Linux on the iPaq PocketPC. And without a network.

And I'm assuming section 1.2.2 will be how to install into main memory so that a network card could be installed instead of the CF card...

Re:How is this useful compaired to handhelds.org?

[mrmag00]

because sombody has to get their palm slashdotted. its really just a race to see who can get apache ported.

im sure some clever bastard will make a SMP palm to handle the load tho...

Re:Linux based "Graffiti" style input

[Anonymous Coward]

www.handhelds.org xscribble project is open source works great under linux on the iPAQ.

Thoughts on this

[ebw]

Well I've been thinking of things like this.
Certainly this is interesting for Hack Value, but would anyone seriously want Linux and X running on a machine like this?

I think that given the size of the screen and the input options for these palmtops, not to mention the cpu/mem constraints dont seem to fit the whole Unix/X way of doing things. I mean are you really going to write a shell script on one of these machines? Do some heavy hacking? I would prefer to develop on an emulator running on a workstation and test on these devices.

I think PalmOS has done a fine job for the UI on their palm machines, and I can't imagine trying to interact with one of these things with programs running in smaller-than-the-screen windows.

Then again maybe I'm just getting grumpy in my old age. :P

Flame away and call me shortsighted if you must.

ebw

Re:Thoughts on this

[Drakino]

I think that given the size of the screen and the input options for these palmtops, not to mention the cpu/mem constraints dont seem to fit the whole Unix/X way of doing things

To some extent true. But keep in mind this little device packs more power then many desktops 5-10 years ago. While input may need to be reworked to be useable with a stylus, the power is exactly why I left my Palm V and got the iPaq. I decided I wanted something more then a PDA, and the name PocketPC is very approiate. I can sit and watch streaming video from anywhere in my house via an 802.11 card in the device. I can carry the device in the same way I did my Palm V, and have so much more potential in my portable gear. All because the engineers finally shrank my computer of years ago into a small form factor with decent battery life and a color screen viewable outside and in. True, storage is a bit low, but nothing a 340 or 1gb microdrive + CF to PCMCIA adaptor + PCMCIA expansion can't solve. (PCMCIA expansion used due to it's own battery to not let the Microdrive suck the device dry quickly).

In 5-10 more years, just imagine the power of a handheld device, and what it will do to complement your existance with computers.

'Cause ...

[Crutcher]

It damn well does what you tell it to. Linux is NOT CLI, linux is a kernel, and a pretty cool one at that.

And computers need kernels. Now, you can put any layer on top you want, and, BTW, GUI's ALWAYS need an extra layer (its just hidden from you sometimes).


-- Crutcher --
#include <disclaimer.h>

Re:all devices?

[g_mcbay]

It seems to be mostly an advertisement link for his site, which despite how its labelled has nothing to do with Bill Gates being dead.

Because it's there...

[Christopher B. Brown]

There's a guy in Scandanavia this week that has found an old Honeywell DPS-6 that is trying to figure out if there is any hope of refurbishing it to run Multics. It's a forlorn hope; he might conceivably get it to run GCOS, with a little luck, and perhaps some help from Thinkage.

Is this of any practical value? Well, a DPS-6 is likely about as powerful as an 80386, and it won't likely fit in your closet, so it's fair to say that it's not a terribly practical proposal.

Likewise, an iPaq has a pretty small screen, small memory, small secondary storage, and no keyboard, thus meaning that it's not a vastly practical computing platform on which to run Debian.

However. Consider two things:

• With constantly improving hardware, the models out next year might have 64MB of RAM, and we might be able to get cheap 256MB CF cards.

  Which means that while it's not spectacularly useful now, if some people scramble to work on it now, they may start having useful software and configuration tools (and boot tools, and...) by the time the hardware is ready to be really useful.

• If it is never of practical value, it can still be a cool hack.

  Nobody is going to power up a DPS-6 because they want to run payroll on it, or write TECO macros to calculate Pi because that's a particularly efficient way to do it; they'll do it because they can.

I think that in another year, there may well be enough hardware on PDAs to usefully run Linux. More power to those experimenting with it now that will make it deployable by then.

Re:The First PDAs had CLIs

[British]

I still have my Zeos Pocket PC. It had TWO type 1 PCMICA cards. Pretty neat little thing. More info at http://british.nerp.net/palmtop.html

Yay, first segfault on a PDA!

[AFCArchvile]

What a pathetic achievement for Linux: being the first operating system to cause PDA's to crash.

Re:Why on earth is this a 5, insightful (non-troll

[PD]

I agree. As a rule, before you mark something up past +3, READ ALL THE COMMENTS FIRST. Make sure that before you put a comment past +3 that there isn't a comment posted by an AC languishing at 0 which deserves your moderation.

Something that is marked at +3 has *already* been recognized as a good comment. Hunt for the gems down low before you make a redundant moderation.

Re: Why not intel-based handhelds?

[Unit3]

My first guess would be the heat issue. Every Intel CPU I have ever come into contact with (including the 486 and the P120 beside me, which are the really cheap, low power-style chips like you've suggested) put off a lot of heat. I'm sure it's too much to be squished in with the rest of the tiny handheld circuitry to avoid damage.

Re: Why not intel-based handhelds?

[the_other_one]

The obvious application is a combination lunchbag/computer

I could warm up a haggis by recompiling the kernel

Hammer in the evening....(long!)

[Cire LePueh]

yet here we have people trying to cram a linux kernel in to a PDA. Now I have to ask why.

Actually if the goal is just to get linux onto another device, you're right...no justification. But the reality in this case is a little bit different from my perspective...
First off they are developing for a PocketPC (aka WinCE3.0) not Palm. Big ifference in hardware etc.
I have a Casio E105. Its a really nice little WinCE unit that unfortunately I can not upgrade to PocketPC. So basically no further OS & little application support & development going forward. Now when I invested in this unit (to the tune of $400+) I knew WinCE was going to have a finite life, but knowing that the OS and in rom apps were on a nice daughterboard I figured I would be able to upgrade for a reasonable amount. Woops missed the window, Casio says too bad shell out another $500. (Last Casio I buy)

I love this PDA, light, powerful, good memory/battery life etc. WinCE2.1 has some bugs and the UI has some issues. Most of the Apps I have loaded (or that came from MS/Casio) are well designed. I do not at all regret getting the Casio. It has served me very well already...but now I have this issue, already WinCe2.1 compatible SW is getting harder to find, and I have no upgrade options available for PocketPC...

Along comes linux for the VR series of chips...LinuxCE... familiar OS, fairly well developed, Open Source cross compiler, etc etc etc
Right now I have a fully functional Linux kernel booted up on it with Video, networking, serial, touch panel, sound,CF support etc...running a 2.3.9 kernel. Linux is entirely on a CF card, and I still have WinCE available with a reset. There are a lot of issues with Linux useability on the PDA right now, but they are not what you might think. Software keyboard drivers/apps (like the jot etc) are developing nicely...and userland is starting to be brought over. So it's not there but it is being actively developed and it is using tools I am more familiar with so if I need something or want to give a hand, I dont have to learn as much.

Now as to power/performance of the CE handhelds...here's part of the boot transcript:

CyaCE ELF Program Loader
Detected 32MB of memory. Will use 32MB of it.
Loading R4000 MMU routines.
CPU revision is: 00000c60
32 TLB entries
Primary instruction cache 16kb, linesize 16 bytes)
Primary data cache 8kb, linesize 16 bytes)
No secondary cache
Setting TLB page size to 4K (CP0_PAGEMASK = 0x00001800)
Linux version 2.3.9 (root@d1.ltc.com) (gcc version egcs-2.90.29 980515 (egcs-1.0.3 release)) #7 Fri Sep 17 21:43:26 EDT 1999
Using VR41XX TLB exception handler
Console: colour dummy device 80x25
Calibrating delay loop... 87.04 BogoMIPS

and the /proc/cpuinfo:

# cp /proc/cpuinfo /dev/stdout
cpu : MIPS
cpu model : NEC Vr41xx V6.0
system type : Vr41xx-based Casio E-105
BogoMIPS : 87.04
byteorder : little endian
unaligned accesses : 0
wait instruction : no
microsecond timers : no
extra interrupt vector : no
hardware watchpoint : yes
VCED exceptions : not available
VCEI exceptions : not available
#

Now those BogoMIPS aren't anything to scream about by todays desktop measures but I think it's probably quite a bit more capable than you may have given them credit for. One of Linux strong features is it's ability to scale down and run on lower end HW quite well. It may not be there yet, but at least I have a hope of continued development for this platform with linux. The same most definately CAN NOT be said with Windows...and I don't relish the idea of replacing a PDA every year to two years... no thanks. If Linux can at all extend the usefull life of my Casio then it is worth every moment of my time and effort. The fact that it is Open Source etc is just a very nice bonus (for me at least.)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Crashing PalmOS 3.5 is easy - no memory protection

[billstewart]

I've got a Palm 3xe running 3.5, and it's easy to crash, by trying to use the Magnifying Glass find-button in Memo Pad. With no memory protection, you'd expect user-written apps to crash the thing, but you'd think they'd have at least tested the basic functions that they're providing themselves.

I think I may have crashed my Psion 3a in the past, but it didn't happen on things I want to do every day.

CompaQ already *did* that - Linuxworld

[billstewart]

Remember CompaQ showing off Linux on an iPAQ at LinuxWorld? Maybe it wasn't Debian, but it was some flavor of Linux, and they'd done a nice job, and had a XWindows telnet font that was small enough to fit usable amounts of text in a window while still being readable, partly because of the gorgeously bright battery-burning screen. They also had some non-text apps running on it, but it was clearly the real thing.

When all you have is a hammer....

[psocccer]

I can't help but think of the oh so famous quote that "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The reason I like my shell is because I have many special tools that each do their job well and don't try to be a jack of all trades. I have also heard many other people voice the same opinion. Now here's the stinger..

Why does Linux have to run on *everything*?

I know this will just be marked -1 troll, but really folks, we complain about Billy G making windows into things it was never meant to be, yet here we have people trying to cram a linux kernel in to a PDA. Now I have to ask why.

Sure, it's cool. But that's it. No PDA to date has had a CLI, nor do I believe one would be benificial. In the case of a PDA, pointing and clicking is many times faster than *ANY* kind of text input developed so far.

1) Now, let's look at Linux. No graphical interface, natively anyway. To get the GUI, you need an extra layer of programming. Now, look at the Palm. GUI through and though, no extra layer.

2) This is a good thing. Why? Because PDA's are obviously *NOT* desktop machine, or servers! They have a very limited capacity by todays standards. Every extra layer on something that small means more CPU, more memory, and more waiting.

3) Which gets me to my point. I love linux, I run it at home, at work, and everywhere I can reasonably in between. I like it to develop code. I don't use it because it's user friendly, I don't use it because it's got all the killer games. I use it to be productive, mainly on a CLI. Now take away that CLI. What do you have? Well, you have Mac, Windows, BeOS, whatever pretty WM you can run to emulate any of the above or do about anything you want. But consider this, wouldn't a kernel that natively used graphics fair a bit better?

Now like I said, mod me down all you want, I use Linux, I love Linux, and it's a great alternative to any other OS. But I have to say, I think the Linux crowd here has gotten out the hammer and decided this problem looks like a nail. I think maybe it looks more like a push pin.