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French Judge Demands Yahoo Censor Auctions
davejhiggins writes: "In this ruling a French judge has upheld an earlier ruling ordering Yahoo! to ban French users from buying Nazi memorabilia from its auction site. Even though the content is not accessible from www.yahoo.fr/ the ruling insists that even "the visualization in France of these objects" on the www.yahoo.com auction site constitutes a breach of French law and orders Yahoo to bar all French IPs from accessing it despite Yahoo's assertions that this would not guarantee that nobody in France would be able to see it." This kind of stuff annoys the hell out of me.
and is limited by our government. (Slander? Libel? Shouting fire in a crowded theater?)
This isn't just "Freedom of Shopping." The judge has said that even allowing people in France to view these items is forbidden. Under that ruling, it's perfectly ok for a totalitarian regime to bar access of its citizens to basic political information, foreign newspapers, etc. This gives legitimacy to suppression of fundamental freedoms and I think sets a dangerous precedent.
"If I have seen further than other men, it is by stepping on their glasses." - Michael Swaine
Snide comments aside, how is collecting Nazi memorabilia any worse than collecting the memorabilia of any other historical era? If I collect memorabilia of the Napoleonic era does that make me a history buff or a fan of a man responsible for the deaths of millions in the Napoleonic wars? What makes the relics of the Nazi era somehow "worse" to collect? Are they lacking historical value? Do you need to be an accredited curator or historian?
Or is it that a few pinheads (most of which couldn't afford any Nazi artifacts of any real value) like to beat up minorities while wearing swastikas?
I'm all for banning hate speech, in the interest of the constitutional rights of minorities and sensibly minded denizens.
In other words, you're all for giving up your right to free speech. Do us all a favor, move to France where you can check your civil rights at the border. Don't forget to tell all your friends in Greenpeace how well you think the French Government defends the rights of minorities and their political perspectives.
I refuse to hear any arguements that come from the country that took the delicious taste of Vanilla Bean ice cream and turned it into the drab and flavorless French Vanilla ice cream.
Let's make a list:
Pros:
French Kissing
French Fries
French Toast
CONS:
French Vanilla
Silly-looking hats
Recipes that use a lot of yougut and small,dead, stinking fish
French judges
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Let me give you the lowdown
It kind of makes sense- it's like if somebody posted child pornography or snuff films on a website, the US would do everything they could to make sure Americans couldn't access it. Now imagine if our country had been taken over by Hitler about 50 years ago; I think the government wouldn't be too fond of Nazi memorabilia.
I'm not saying that I agree with them, but it isn't as irrationial as everybody tries to say it is.
-- atomly
When the day when it is possible to see a frontal nudity (or even a breast, for god's sake!) on American TV before 22:30 or to hear 4 letter words, or to see somebody giving a finger without having a ridiculous mosaic on it has come, then maybe Americans will be able to start teaching lessons. 1st amendment, my ass, I've never seen such a bunch of blind hypocriticals.
For us, nazism means deads in our families, collective humiliations, foreign tanks parading in Paris, hunger, poverty, entire villages slaughtered (women and children included), genocide, shame on some of our citizens who became collaborators, etc... So, yeah, we're irrational about nazi icons, Jewish associations are very agressive to keep it that way, and in the end we're probably wrong. But I'd rather leave in a country which is irrational about nazism than in a country which is absurdly puritan about sex, alcohol and related, sorry.
Typical French government action. They believe by censoring everything related to the Nazis, maybe people won't realize how cozy the French Government was with the Germans.
A good friend of mine owns a Nazi dagger. He is certainly no Nazi. He also owns a British commando knife and several other pieces of WWII equipment. He is a history buff and nothing more.
From a technical standpoint. It may be possible to block sites coming directly from French domains, but it is impossible to block anyone who truely wishes to get through. I can think of several ways off the top of my head (e.g. use an anonymous browser site).
-- Will program for bandwidth
they're still amateurs compared to the austrailian parliment though
I'm told in some parts of the world it is illegal to even mention the hollocust ... does anyone know if this is true?
Free Techno/Jazz/DNB/MI Music by guys obsessed with monkeys!
Just because people in the US and Canada don't have many laws like this doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense for other countries. Lets have a little respect, ok people? However, the problem again comes down to how a country can both accept the Internet and apply their current laws.
...
Canada, for example, has very strict laws about child pornography (which are being debated right now in our Supreme Court). How do we then handle the issue of child pornography coming into the country from other countries where it is not illegal? This is perhaps a more interesting version of the question this legal argument is trying to propose
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
~moofbong
~moofbong
If 'con' is the opposite of 'pro', what is the opposite of 'progress'?
Before French citizens can access anything on the internet, they must first be licensed by their government and then the site they are going to visit must also approve of a French visitor coming to see the site's content.
I truly understand the very logical reasoning behind France's objection to auctioning off Hate paraphenalia, but I feel a bit more secure knowing it is occuring in the open where this behavior can be noted and used as an example than hidden. Because you know that moment it is outlawed at least three sites will pop up (members.tripod.com/naziauction) to fill the demand. What's worse is these sites will operate without the watchful eye of ADL or other HateWatch groups.
Welcome to the global economy France. You either play along or become extinct.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
y'know, now that I think of that, this might not be a bad idea at all. Imagine the headlines:
I swear, this is ripe for something on the Onion, if anything was..
"Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem"
(as seen on a bulletin board in Fermi lab)
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
If there's anything our good friends the French should have learned, it's that building an impenetrable defensive line is ludicrous. Why? Because you'll just have them go around your defenses through Belgium.
Go boil your bottom, you stupid son of a silly person! I fart in your general direction! I empty my nostrils on your aunties! Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries! Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second tim'e!
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I think you got a few things wrong:
America restricts the rights to see nudity and drink alchol from all minors.
And all majors as well, to a degree. Can you see people having sex at 3:00 PM on any public station anywhere in the USA? Can you buy beer on Sunday in Georgia?
Once you're of age, have at it! Download
porn off the internet, get those smutty DVDs, watch Pay-Per-View sex show.
Except that lawmakers have traditionally tried to heavily regulate that as well. There are still laws on the books regulating how, with whom, and with what devices you are allowed to have sex.
The official reason that TV and radio is censored is that children can view it without restriction.
But the real reason that TV and radio is censored is because people want to use the law as a club to beat up the things that they think are immoral.
So while I agree with the spirit of your post, I feel like some of the details are not quite correct. America is still very backward when it comes to sex. Spend a few weeks (or hell, even a few days) in Amsterdam and you'll see what I mean.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
When someone reads this post they must remember that the holocaust, and the legacy left by World War II and Nazism has left a very different mark in the history books than it has here in America. Which would have an influence on decisions such as there. I'm not supporting or advocating this ruling, but I'm saying that people need to understand cultural context when criticizing other nations and their policies.
France has full right to pass laws against its citizens from trafficking in Hate symbols. But in trying to enforce them on a global scale, France has fallen into a myopic point-of-view that by tweaking a parameter, its citizens will magically be spared the hate symbols on the internet.
Fascism is on the rise in Europe. Yahoo auctions aren't going to impede or help at all. Anti-Hate legislation in these countries will.
This is not the way to build a lasting empire.
Oh...I know -- let's ignore the past. That will make everything much better.
--
Wooden armaments to battle your imaginary foes!
More importantly the French want these auctions banned, yet history shows that the French were colaborators with the Nazis, something that they try to forget in a swirl of how magnificent the French Resistance were. Of course the Resistance was a tiny proportion of the population and only really started to become a force when the British started dropping SOE (Special Operatios Executive) agents into occupied territory to arm and train them. The French forget how culpable they were, its like a whole country has amnesia, and so people who were part of the Vichy government in France during the war went unpunished as did many ordinary colaborators. This judge in France just wants to keep anything that might remind them of their own guilt out of reach, its too uncomforatable for the French to face up to the truth. PS this is not supposed to be flaimbait, its supposed to be informative.
How can these be the same people who fashioned that proud lady in New York's harbor?
Have they learned nothing? The most powerful weapons the Nazi's possessed were not fashioned of steel and gunpowder, but crafted of words. Words that carefully rewrote history in the minds of their people. They so realized the power of this weapon that they quickly moved against those who offered words of truth or opposition.
The French are starting down a dangerous path that may leave their view of history distorted and risk having their children relive the tragedies and evils of the past.
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
...hearing that Yahoo! was prepared to fight "any legal attack issued" by the French courts, France immediately surrendered to Yahoo! and invited shareholders to establish a secondary government in Vichy.
I've got it! It's all so simple!
We're going about this ALL wrong!
We simply need to have yahoo put a big button up on it's site to get in, asking: "Are you french?" (Yes/No). If they answer No, then everything is fine. If they answer yes, then it takes them to pokemon.com or something.
But wait, it gets better.
Under the DMCA, they could claim that this is an access control measure! And since american corperations have already demonstrated their willingness and ability to go after people in foreign countries, any evil French 1337 h4x0rz who got around the protection and offended themselves by accident could be hanged by the Yahoo mafia, as an example to others!
And if anyone in france complained, we could just say something witty like "if you expect us to adhere to your ridiculous laws, then you have to adhere to ours. And ours are riduclouser."
That's it, rather than fight all these annoying, yet legally powerful examples of absurdity in action, we should just get them to fight each other! I imagine that it wouldn't take more than a few hangings for french judges to get the point...
On the other. . .
Not only is the French law stupid and unenforcable, ( when such laws exist the people ALWAYS simply create a black market following free trade principles, they did this even in the USSR), BUT. . .
I am a Jew. Much of my family died in WWII. I know people with tattoos. None in my family though, my family wasn't quite so lucky. My family was not only killed, but their villages were destroyed and * all records that they had even existed were exunged from maps and public records.* I myself only exist because a few members had managed to emigrate between the wars. This was not easy for them, they were slaves. They were white, European, living in the 20th century, and slaves. They went from being slaves of the Czar to being slaves of the politburo.
All of this is just to lay some background for my opinion on the matter at hand.
The ONLY way to fight the rise facism and nazism in the future is to remember.
* Those who forget the past are condemed to repeat it.*
This quote is attributed to George Santayan, but dear George only made a memerable phrase of a sentiment that goes back in the written record at LEAST as far as Sun Tzu, and Napoleon once spoke almost the exact same words.
Here's what everyone who is concerned about such matters SHOULD do. Buy a dagger. One with SS prominantly displayed on the hilt. Pay whatever you have to get it and treasure it.
Now, take that dagger and stab it as hard as you can into your desktop, or your mantlepiece or perhaps your doorframe, someplace where you have to see it many times a day.
Everytime you look at it, stop. . . and make the mental climb up to the top of Masada and repeat to yourself:
"Never again, never again, never again."
THAT is the way to deal with the legacy of Nazism.
Hide your head in the historical sand and someday you'll wake up to find a bayonet stuck in your butt because you never saw it coming.