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FSF Europe Founded
senfman writes "The German News Service Heise Onilne writes in this article, that the Free Software Foundation Europe was founded. The four founding members are Germans who look for people in other european countries to support them. The FSF Europe is going to cooperate with Richard M. Stallman to make sure that there are no differences between this institutions." Excellent.
"You cannot sign your program up under FSF Europe License because there is only one license .. the GNU License. Creating a license that might be governed by a different law made in Europe is creating un free software."
Result: FSF Europe cannot be different from FSF. Just a club.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Actually ... Europe has been around for millenniums (I know because it's been reported on Slashdot several times already). This link
shows the existence of prior art.
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.
What Stallman did was to enforce that the system keeps being open source. And then Linus fsck'ed him getting all the spotlight.
PLEASE think befor posting, Linus didn't invent Unix/Posix. Nor Stallman did.
No thanks!
--
when everyone gives everything,
when everyone gives everything, then everyone everything will get
First they came for the spammers.
I didn't speak out because I wasn't a spammer.
Then they came for the Trolls.
I didn't speak out because I was not a Troll.
Then they came for the karma whores
I didn't speak out becasue I am not a karma whore.
Then they came for me -
and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.
that's two words, genius. Is George Bush
posting here now?
He said "pure European". I think its kind of funny how the Internet is this big Global thing, yet some of us still feel like they have to stick to arbitrary geographical boundaries.
blog
Budwiser, the All-American beer founded by All-German immigrants in the quest to become All-Americans themselves. The only thing that suffered in the process was any sense of quality of the beer itself.
Thanks to everyone who modded this out of sight. I had no idea people would take my post seriously. It was intended as a humorous reference to the GNU / GNU/Linux and free software / open source debates. Anyone who had any doubt, you have been trolled. Except that it wasn't a troll, just a mistargeted joke.
- Michael
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Go ahead, blame me... I voted for Nader!
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Go ahead, blame me... I voted for Nader!
~~~To the Karma Police~~~
Hey, this may be offTopic, but I'd prefer if you didn't mark it as such. Take a look at this thread to see what's going on. It's actually kind of interesting. It seems to be a flamewar between an editor from Slashdot (Michael) and someone in contact with Signal 11. I'm not posting anonymously because I'd like to show "TheReverand" who says--I think--that moderation intimidates readers into posting anonymously, that I don't agree and I don't mind speaking with my actual username because I trust you, the moderator. If this is unclear to you, I'd really appreciate it if you'd just ignore this post. Thanks.
~~~End of Disclaimer~~~
I kind of doubt this is genuine, but for the sake of argument...
TheReverand, I have to point out to you that "[freezing] membership at about 10000 or so" isn't really a very useful way to increase freedom of speech. Maybe for the 10000 people but not for the greater good. As an advocate of freedom of speech, how can you suggest a solution that doesn't allow everyone to have a voice? Why should the first 10000 be the ones who have the voices? That seems sort of arbitrary. Sure, there are more trolls today than in the past, but that happens when there is a larger user base. It doesn't mean that the trolls are actually more disruptive. I also think there are a lot of intelligent people who have come along recently. Isn't that good? Doesn't that benefit The Greater Good? What kind of solution is it of yours that would exclude those intelligent, insightful, interesting and funny posters who make this forum a better place for everyone?
Just my 2 cents,
PhatKat.
(I should note that the change could have been done silently, so that you wouldn't have known who changed the password on your account.)
/. has lost all journalistic credibility. And thank you for doing your part to make it possible.
So the answer is more secrecy? That hardly seems consistent with the mission of YRO. You throw a fit every time a closed-source program dials out and shares user data with a secret server somewhere. You would've thrown a fit if Intel had secretly manufactured its PIIIs with serial numbers. You've built yourself a career here railing against abusive secrecy, and now you turn around and inflict the same?
I've never thought much of you, michael, but you've far exceeded my expectations here. You positively drip with hypocrisy. How can anyone read anything you ever post again knowing that whatever ideals you pretend to stand for are a ruse masking your power infatuation?
Thanks for reminding me why
Georg C. F. Greve is a longtime GNU supporter. I doubt he'd be involved in something designed to undermine the FSF in the US.
What could be very useful about the FSF Europe is creating a legal entity there that an accept tax free donations from EU citizens. I don't know the European tax laws, but the US generally prohibits claiming tax deductions for contributions to foreign charities. Now the legal system could be very different in Europe, especially in light of its emphasis on state support for charitable activities versus the private contributions in the US. (I just read an article someplace about how in Germany some arts organizations had no clue how to go about raising private funds for support).
Oh brother. So Michael portscanned you. You have proof. Make his life hell then...and leave the rest of us the fuck out of it.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Yes, yes, go on about your Aryan software already.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
'Now when you visit the KDE website, maybe we'll stop seeing them interchange "free software" and "open source".'
Yes, and hopefully we'll be seeing them refer to it as Open Source. I dunno; the Free Software world seems a little to Aryan to me and seems to have intelligent argument based on utter nonsense (not unlike Nazi rhetoric, but certainly not as extreme.) It seeks to force the user into using only software that matches its' own view of what is right and good, ignoring the right of the developer to release software under the license they see fit, and ignore the fact that many users are intelligent enough to determine whether or not a license is suitable for their needs. Please, RMS & the FSF, save me from myself! I'm too stupid to understand that your way is the only way!
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Yup, looks like a little Team Fortress action to me.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
People don't like to talk about using GPL code here (even the LGPL code) because management gets nervous. Even if the end result is a product for internal use only.
It would be nice to have the FSF here as a lobby, to clarify this and other issues such as the trouble with EU IP law.
See my journal, I write things there
As for speaking the language, well that wouldn't bother me, I'd have to learn it wouldn't I?
If you are familiar with IR35, UK fuel duty, fatty two jags and other delights you might appreciate why I may be considering relocating, within Europe. Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Ireland are all quite attractive which is why, yes I am THINKING about it.
So no I don't know YET what I would rather do. There are several other factors too.
If you don't like one throwaway comment at the start of a post about a separate subject, well I hope you will eventually learn to cope with the world not being as you want it.
From dictionary.msn.com, for those that need the help-
consider: to think carefully about something
To end with an appropriate quotation, hmm..
"It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
"But the FSF doesn't want me to distribute software privately, only publicly or not at all."
This statement is very wrong.
The only thing that the FSF want is that if you recieve a binary, that you have rights to the source code as well. If you didn't get the binary, you don't get the source code.
Simple, isn't it. You CAN distribute privately. You don't have to distribute publicly. It says this in the GPL!
Stop being so contensious!
I was thinking more of the practicalities. The FSF is solely US, so has to cope with Federal and State laws, I was thinking a Euro-XXX version would have an easier time if it was in an analagous situation with regard to legal matters, i.e. individual country and EU law is supposed to be becoming more harmonised.
I'm not implying Norway should join the EU, it seems to be doing quite nicely outside, but as far as I can tell there probably wouldn't be any great legal mismatch, whereas I'm not so sure about the Eastern European states - at least for now.
I was just thinking it might help the FSF-EU[R(OPE|ASIA)] to start within a simpler framework and expand when and if practicable.
Apologies to any Norwegian or Eastern European (or Asian) people, I did not mean to be offensive, and any slight was from ignorance, not intent. I was hoping the FSF-XXetc could learn to crawl before trying to do the hurdles bakwards. :-)
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
Who knows why I posted anonymous. Either I mistyped my password, or I should blame konqueror.
--
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
If more of the Slashdot crew were proactive about stopping abuses of the system perhaps Slashdot would not be the shithole it is today.
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enterfornone - logging in for a change
well if you want to get technical about it, the the Americas have been around for millenia too. It just took europe a while to restle it away from the people already living here.
I noted on your site, you offer software under a BSD license and have posted the following restriction: "I've put up some source code here for all who are interested. Everything here is under the BSD License, which means that you're free to do almost anything with it except change the license."
What kind of hypocrisy is this talk about "freedom"? Your upset because you can't use his software to enhance your own and make money off his work? Is he not free? Everyone should be free but him? He has to take his own creation and do what you want with it? If you don't like his license, make your own software, use any other license you like, and leave rms in peace. He isn't bothering you...just saying what you can do with his own stuff. That ought to be right up your alley, since you say the same thing about yours.
All the rms bashing is very puzzling. What is it *really* about? I hope you think that over. What the man has done is extraordinary. Just compare his site with your own (nothing mean-spirited in what I am writing intended...just truthful). Is it an American thing, to attack whoever accomplishes something? Whatever one thinks of him and his foundation, he/it/they have produced a body of work that even you wish you could use...of course he has set it up so that you can't use it and then shut it off to others who want to use it down the road, and that annoys you, but I wish you'd just leave the poor guy alone. He is also a human being, you know. No doubt he reads some of this type of thing occasionally. This endless bashing is his reward for nearly two decades of effort? If I'm sick of reading it, how must he feel? And yet he persists...
Come on...enough, already. Go your own way, but let him alone to do the same. He will go down in history, without a doubt. Will you? If the honest answer is: No, then maybe a little humility is in order. Has it occurred to you maybe you don't really understand the legal purpose of the GPL? IMO,it is the legal foundation stone on which everything was built and, more importantly, maintained and protected. Look past your nose and you'll get it. Your characterization of his views isn't a bit accurate, by the way. I also think it is strange that your site says on the homepage that your software is both Free and Open. Hmmm. I think it'd be good if you'd take a longer gander at his site.
And for all the people who endlessly post "he's a communist", he's stated publicly he isn't...so what is *that* all about?
When I first read this, I thought to myself, what a bunch of lazy bums! Why don't they support theirselves.
When I first read this, I thought to myself, what a lazy bum! Why don't you use proper grammar.
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
...um.."except change the license" is a restriction. The GPL is a restriction too.
I was not talking about licenses. I was talking about the philosophy of Free Software in general. Please reread my posts. My problem with RMS has nothing to do with his software, the GPL or Free Software in general. It has everything to do with his goals and ideology.
I am not attacking RMS the man. Instead I am attacking his philosophy which is a much different thing. RMS does not want software to be owned. This is the foundation upon which his entire philosophy rests. But I cannot accept that premise. This doesn't mean that I reject Free Software however, because I don't. In fact, the concept of Free/Open software is that much stronger because it doesn't depend upon a single philosophy.
And you are free to release your own software under any license you like. He doesn't dictate that.
No, he doesn't dicate that. But throughout his writings and talks he makes it very clear that he considers the authors of proprietary software to be immoral and evil. If he had the power to dictate what licenses people could or could not use, and exercised that power, I would stop attacking the philosophy and start attacking the man.
Is it an American thing, to attack whoever accomplishes something?
To restate the obvious, I am not attacking RMS. I am only attacking his philosophy. Is it a <insert your nation here> thing to consider a disagreement to be a personal attack?
I wish you'd just leave the poor guy alone. He is also a human being, you know.
And as a human being he has the capacity to be wrong.
And for all the people who endlessly post "he's a communist", he's stated publicly he isn't...so what is *that* all about?
For the record, I have never accused RMS of being a communist. If you're going to comment on my post, then please do so. But don't drag in every peeve you've got and dump it here.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It's not as if there are any variants on "signal 11" left for him to take, you know ;^)
Fist Prost
"We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."
Fist Prost
"We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."
-Jaron Lanier
I'm pretty sure, but please don't misunderstand me. We certainly wouldn't have free software in masses today like we have now if it hadn't been for FSF and ultimately, RMS. I think his "radicalism" about software freedom is why we have so much free software today. For Christ's sake, the term "open source" wouldn't even exist today hadn't it been for RMS, as that word was coined by people who liked the idea of free software but didn't like RMS' radicalism and the ideology behind it.
I personally think that his radicalism is a good thing, because you always know where you have him. He always tries to be as clear about his views and software freedom as possible. Although I don't agree with him about everything, it makes me trust him more than those who are willing to compromise about software freedom and licenses all the time, and end up with stupid licenses that are bad in the end anyway.
My point is, you can like or dislike RMS and his radicalism, but I think giving him credit for the success of the concept of free software is still due.
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
I read the irc logs back when this all started, and the story has always been Signal 11 gave the account to someone worthy enough to burn up all the karma. Hate to say it, Michael, but after reading these posts, you have really over-stepped your role as /. author. Last time I checked, moderation was the system used to "censor" posts, not the taking over of accounts. This whole thing reeks of a powertrip gone awry. Shame on you.
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
Yes but there are limits on what is appropriate to do. Raising the "default" threshold for non-logged in users is very appropriate (which they have done). Linking karma from posts made with the "AC" button checked to the account they were posted with might help even more (they have the ability to do this, make an "AC" post logged in and your ability to moderate that discussion goes away.)
/. authors get. Given his responses here and the general attitude that he gives off, I have a feeling this problem won't go away on its own, and will get much worse if we see more of these "proactive" measures. He should apologize for blowing up, give the account back to where it belongs (signal11@mediaone.net), and begin to understand that you can't seriously post stories on censorship, while taking a "one hand doesn't know what the other..." attitude.
However, and as others have pointed out, when you single out one user it scares the others, even those with no real reason to be scared. It's a bad precedent to set, CmdrTaco agreed with this when he stopped wielding the ability to mass remoderate people (ironically those who were messing with Signal 11).
Not only that, but it definately shows that Michael is letting the abuse get to him. That does him quite a bit of harm, as now his last article seems to be about 75% crap, as opposed to the probably 35% that the other
Posted non-anon because this is stuff that matters.
This surely is good because it's getting easier form European programmers to identify themselves with this organisation. Sitting far away in the US, the FSF is "only" some good organisation over there that does good things but is not soooo important for us here in Europe, some programmers might think.
If this is true, this is very bad news. During the last five years, I have made some experiences with organisations in which members are starting to build opposing groups - most of these organistions did not last long. It would be disgraceful for the open source world in Europe if FSF-Europe (or FSF-Eurasia) broke apart short after it has been founded.
Perfection? Yes. Practicality? That's probably a better question.
The FSF has done a hell of a lot of good as the lone "voice of freedom" in the software industry, so being a bit extremist isn't necessarily a bad thing. RMS is the perfect leader for the FSF - he's not willing to compromise the FSF's ideals for anything. It would be a very flimsy and untrustworthy organization otherwise.
-John
Isn't it something wrong when FSF (Free Software Foundation) people are loyal to ESR, the person who refuses to call free software "free software" but instead "open source"? It seems there is some confusion here about loyalness...
Then again, I agree that "FSF-Europe" is better than "FSF-Eurasia". Europe is a continent, Eurasia isn't. "FSF-Eurasia" sounds like "FSF-ForAlmostEverythingOutsideAmerica" and seems to me as stupid as that too. Everything outside America isn't homogenous, on the contrary. If there is a need for FSF-Asia, let it be founded too, instead of trying to put everything in this one new FSF sister organization.
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
Yes, I know, this was also what I meant, although it might not have been perfectly clear. "Eurasia" is the name of a tectonic plate that most of Europe and Asia happen to be on, it is not the name of a continent; Europe and Asia are different continents (as everybody should know).
GNU/Linux. The Freshmaker.
The reason for the "bad" web page is to stay backwards compatible, they want their pages to be viewed by as many as possible, and easily viewed in any browser, including text browsers such as lynx. If you check out the source, you'll notice that they are using HTML 2.0, which most of the existing browsers support.
W3C has some info about HTML 2 if anyone is interested.
AFAIK, Eurasia is the (at least inofficial) name for the whole land from West-Europe to China. So it wouldn't be that wrong to put all the countries into "FSF-Eurasia". But from the organizational view, it would be better to split it info FSF-Europe and FSF-Asia, I must admit. That might also be good because the cultures and minds from west to east vary a lot.
As anyone who has cared to look at the website can tell, this is so far only a Declaration of Intent. Greve, Bernhard, Werner, Peter and others are currently very busy with organisating a Free Software Foundation Europe. There will also be local chapters of this FSF Europe. If I have anything to say about this, and I think I do, Sweden will be one of those countries having a local chapter. This is interesting times indeed.
Otherwise why not go for FSF-EU as this would cover an area with more homogenised legal and intellectual systems than 'Europe' or 'Eurasia'.
But it is a joke, right?
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
When I first read this, I thought to myself, what a bunch of lazy bums! Why don't they support theirselves.
THE LINUX PIMP
--It's Pimptastic!--
An FSF-EU would arbitrarily exclude countries such as Norway and most of Eastern Europe. It would be contributing to the growing split between the EU and the rest of Europe. Europe has a lot of common history, there is no point in splitting it along the arbitrary borders of EU.
Whether this FSF-Europe is a good thing or not remains to be seen, but an FSF-EU would be terrible.
Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.
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Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
I couldn't give two hoots whether you mess about with people's accounts (you shouldn't, IMO) but it's not like you've built a system that thwocks people equally - there seems to be a sore spot with "signal 11" in particular. A festering sore, even. You do not go about closing people's accounts (sorry, "changing the passwords") equally and there are many account misuses.
Signal 11 is a poncy posey dickwad, let's not fibble over semantics, but you are *ahem* signaling him/her out, and first year behavioural students will tell you that a reaction is expected.
Oh, and your logic is amusing Michael. Because a person may get a new name you're not censoring them -- how is one supposed to prove that they are who they say they are?
If one were to change your account, regularly, there's little doubt that no one would believe your claims of being someone else. You can't build up a history of good posts, or karma.
Cut it out, editors.
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
What you seem to be saying is that speech should be free even if it offends the vast majority.
I think this subject would make a good movie. Do you think we could get Woody Harrelson to play the lead?
Then we could have had nice, long, sanctimonious about how portscanning really isn't attacking a system, and maybe gotten 1000 replies.
Maybe we need a new poll.
Portscanning is
George
Are we all 100% sure of the perfection of the FSF model, that nothing needs to be changed about it (particularly RMS)?
Dude, I think when they said to make sure that there are no differences they meant "to make sure there were no points of contention", not "to make sure they were exactly alike".
They've already announced they are going to have localized chapters, so we know at least some things are going to be changed.
Ever get the impression that your life would make a good sitcom?
Ever follow this to its logical conclusion: that your life is a sitcom?
"I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
Does anybody actually buy it outside of America?
We certainly wouldn't have free software in masses today like we have now if it hadn't been for FSF and ultimately, RMS.
Maybe, maybe not. No one can tell. But one thing is certain, RMS did not invent the concept of free software. He was not coming up with something new, but trying to get back to what once existed.
The computer and software industry has undergone tremendous changes since their beginnings. At first hardware was incredibly expensive so software was thrown in for free. Now we have the opposite, where you can get the hardware for free by signing up for two years with a service. But the intrinsic value of source code has not changed. To say that free software all hinged on one man is ridiculous. Eventually someone would have done something similar.
Would free systems like Linux, GNU or BSD have arrived later without RMS? Maybe. But maybe they would have arrived earlier. Maybe without his radicalism the commercial developers wouldn't have shied away from it. We'll never know.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It just goes to show that the US can export anything!
Just hope this one isn't as badly received as McDonalds was......
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
> but it's no reason to confuse the two types of software when Free is a more narrow term for this software.
"Free" isn't a term.. it's a word meaning "at no cost" Free Software is software provided at no cost.
MsIE is free software...
The term "Open Source" was created becouse it is far more narrow than other existing terms and better fits what the FSF premotes.
While the FSF prefers the terms "Freeware" "Copyleft"... and "Free Software" I don't...
Corprate enitys are abusing the terminology right now pritty badly...
Sun was charging around $30 shipping and handling for Solarus.. and calling that free...
The publication Freebes (a mag on free stuff) defines free as charging less than $2 for shipping and handling. At $30 Sun dosn't come close to even this rather lose standard.
I however prefer the dictionary deffinition of free.. "At no charg"
I don't actually exist.
There is no practical difference between Free Software and Open Source Software. People like you are the ones creating the rift in the community with your orwellian GNUspeak.
The "Free" in Free Software is NOT the same "free" as in free speech. If they were the same thing, then I should have the same rights to my own software as I would to my own speech. But that is not what the FSF wants. I have the right to speak publicly and to speak privately. But the FSF doesn't want me to distribute software privately, only publicly or not at all.
RMS chose the adjective "free" because he felt constrained by "proprietary" software (and rightfully so). But this "free" is synonymous with "open", not "liberty". As long as his means are voluntary, he can play his word games all day long. But once he seeks to compel software "freedom", he will become no better than a tyrant.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
It will be nice to watch quality organizations be able to stretch out to other nations. I have been watching several of the FSFs ventures and have agreed with quite a few. Hopefully this will be the starting of a trend :D
.--bagel--.---------------.
| aim: | bagel is back |
| icq: | 158450 |
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
The kind of honesty you get by having individuals who aren't afraid to express themselves has always been a threat to those who imagine themselves in power. -- Emmanuel Goldstein.
im an aussie and i sure dont!!
i drink carlton cold filtered, or hahn premium
Why didn't you use it to post then?
Is it? Are we all 100% sure of the perfection of the FSF model, that nothing needs to be changed about it (particularly RMS)?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I have been hearing more about Europe in the last 2 years than ever before. When it come to comp news that is. For instance there is a Swedish Usergroup promoting Linux which is for the moment only in Swedish unfortunatly. And storyies that Italy, in an effort to help the future generations compete in a global market, has tried to do a serious gearup in the IT and high tech industries. One good example of this can be found in the CNUCE Institute, and the good news is, this one's in english. A vastly more diverse example can be found at Search Europe, in their computers and internet section. Even a link to a list of companies in the Irish Internet Industry can be found there. All in all pretty encouraging stuff from the European front.
Michael, you are a hypocrite and a liar, and you are no better then Sengan.