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Jupiter Moon Ganymede May Have An Ocean
matth writes: "This article talks about how Jupiter's moon, Ganymede, may have a salt water ocean on it. Kind of interesting in light of all we have been talking about with water on planets and what not. If NASA does find water on a planet, the implications could be outstanding, on the other hand, they have yet to find any water on any planet for sure.. yet.... More on Ganymede here."
you're ignorant views of this world do look really stupid. If you're starving and living in a box, go get a job. The economy's good, so it won't be that hard. Charities are fine for a while, but use them too much and you may get dependant on them. Or look at it the other way: the USG cuts all NASA funding and suddenly all those people are out of a job. Yeah, they've got good resumes, but if no one needs an actual rocket scientist, what'll they do? Maybe something good could come out of exploration *in the future*. Not everything happens within the next 10 seconds. Medieval alchemists didn't immediately benefit their society, but their work in chemistry benefitted us greatly. Say, following the discovery of ice on [planet/moon/desolate space rock], a research station is built there that creates a new medecine or plant food, which in turn is sold to Earth (creating jobs to sell it) to combat disease and make food cheaper. Or SETI finds ETs, and they for some strange reason decide we're worth helping, and they fix the aforementioned problems (unlikely, but still possible). Is exploration still that pointless?
I recall reading some of NASA's studies showing that Mars had oceans in its past, and that likely meant life. I wonder if the oceans of Ganymede could have sufficient heat, either from internal activity, or radiated from the planet, to have life also?
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
I wouldn't have to be different. Salt water can freeze just like any other kind of water. It just has to be at a lower temperature than regular water. And being so far from the sun kind of takes care of that.
It's interesting to read the post of others on here. But, I think some of them are done in haste. To me, finding water on a moon that is a great distance away, that is beneath the crust of the said mood is something amazing. Each time we learn something, we learn how much we still need to learn before we understand. Every little bit of science and discoveries help out, and they should not be bashed for being 'predictable'... since before we figured it out, that's all it was.. predicted. Now it's fact.
Beyond Thoughts and Proof, There is Truth.
The issua of the existence of water in the Jovian Moons was solved long ago. Since Voyager, a large segment of the scientific community came into the conclusion that is a main component of most Moons and specially Europa. Later other evidence showed that water plays a very specific role in the formation of most satellites beyond Jupiter. There is even a phenomena generally called "water volcanism" that suggests that water acts in certain planets, much the same way as we see volcanism in our Hawaian volcanos. This is still under question as all we have is pictures of Triton showing something similar to this.
Anyway it was a long time question wether this water had a presence in liquid form. At the beginning only Europe suggested such a phenomena. Densities are so low in this planet that many strongly suggested that Europe was mostly a "water world". Besides its "glass-like" surface gave a weight in these argumentations. Ganymede, Calisto and other planets beyond Jupiter were considered to possess water but in "dirty-forms", that means strongly mixed with minerals.
Now the findings seem to cast a new light on the formation of the Solar System. It seems that water is playing a bigger and more fundamental role in its formation. Somehow this suggests the lack of water as an "exclusion" rather than a rule. The Moon, Mercury or Venus become more "outsiders" rather than players in thsi game.
Not to mention that many of the other Jovian satalites are incredibly interesting....making 2001, 2010, 2061, and 3001 all required reading for /.ers....
What was the other moon that Clarke postulated had an icy crust and an ocean under it? Wasen't it Europa? NASA has all but confirmed that possibility, which seems very likely considering the proximity of Europa to Jupiter and the warming affect that the gravitational pull would have upon Europa's core....
If I were a woman, I would be a lesbian too... I would hate to have to decide between men like the people that responded above...
It is a well known fact that Mars has a great deal of ice at both poles. So much for no planted without water (I assume they meant liquid water)
Except the space apples might have trouble space growing when there's no space light reaching the space apple trees. ;-)
the real at&t mix
No. :) Jupiter is a planet; Ganymede is a satellite of Juptier.
Not a problem - in the depths of the oceans there are entire ecosystems that thrive without light - they get their energy from geothermal sources.
More-or-less. It will be with Admiral Ackbar, captaining a Mon Calamari cruiser.
I realize that you probably mis-spoke, but the phrase struck me as funny.
It struck me as funny too. Actually, I didn't misspeak (as such), but perhaps some clarification is in order. I believe absolutely that live exists elsewhere. Intelligent life, I'm not so sure about (the Drake Equation >= 10000 notwithstanding). The discovery of such life, be it on Europa, Ganymede or Minbar, is inevitable, given a long enough time scale. But if silicon-based life -- intelligent or otherwise -- were to be found, it'd go beyond coolness and come out the other side. It'd open up whole new vistas for science.
Finding ET live during my lifetime, btw, would cause me to be pleasantly surprised.
Ganymede might not help us on this score any time soon though. If the figures they give are correct - that is, the oceans are 90 to 120km below the surface, it would be like tunnelling that deep into rock to get at it, and would require some new tech to do it. I'm guessing a nuclear powered head based ice borer.
Not that these folks are necessarily right, but the topic has a long and detailed history with exobiologists, many of whom do consider it possible, if not likely.
Just because your imagination doesn't stretch that far, doesn't mean it's not possible. Maybe college will open your eyes a little, huh? (When you get there.)
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Politics is about making compromises. Religion isn't. --Michael Horton
AFAIK this is just what's being discussed for the Europa-ocean probe. It'll need a power supply for the instruments anyway, so you might as well just use that to keep it warm for the "drilling."
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Politics is about making compromises. Religion isn't. --Michael Horton
Okay, name one
Imagine you find a new lifeform in Earth's ocean depths. It may have a weird shape and color, but it will be DNA-based. A lifeform on another planet is likely to be alien at the molecular level. Even if it's only the size of a bacteria, it will be of a huge interest to biochemists.
Dude, come on. Democrats wouldn't trade vote for a packet of cigarettes. You're confused. Republicans need that. Democrats want to give republican's money to those poor people. They want to tax the tobacco industry to pay for the poor.
I'm glad there are people that make President-elect George Bush appear smart.
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Certainly oceans contribute a massive amount to the development of life as we know it. However, life as we know it could not exist without sunlight.
An ocean of liquid water trapped beneith miles of ice is very unlikely to see much sunlight at all.
I suppose it might be possible for life to develop through some sort of thermal energy transfer.
Although it is quite possible that there are many other liquids, such as ammonia, et al that could possible support a complex "organic" structure.
I believe it's pretty safe to say we're unique in the solar system, if that's what we're looking for.
Nice.
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EW!!! The ocean smells bad. Let's go to the Gap.
end communication
they have yet to find any water on any planet for sure.. yet.. Last time I checked Jupiter's moon, Europa had a massive layer of ice completely covering its surface.
Isn't there a Shadow ship burried on Ganymede?
Come to think about it, isn't there one burried on Mars too? Maybe we should try to dig the one on Mars out first before the next big war.
Always wanted to fly a starfury.
Je ne parle pas francais.
It is mans desire to kill other men and explore his land, country, world, universe that leads him to innovate technologically for the most part.
It think we should encourage exploration as the more healthy of the two.
"Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality." -- Dalai Lama
Just a thought, but even if there's no life there, water is extremely useful to us. It of course supplys us with drinking water, but can also be used as a propulsion system by superheating it and shooting it through a nozzle; it can be seperated into hydrogen and oxygen for fuel and breathing; if there are sufficient tides the water could be used to drive generators. Water means we ourselves could go there and expect to have some valuable resources when we get there. Combined with the energy possiblities in Io, this world might be a good place to put a rest stop if we ever explore out that far.
But I would be willing to bet that an aquatic civilization could teach us a few things about fluid dynamics, and motion through fluids (both of which I know almost nothing about).
Since writing may be a tad difficult, a lot of information might get passed down by songs or legends. And I suspect that they may have to develop some form of calculus to describe very advanced turbulence equations. So being a college student there would suck because every exam would be oral, and we all know how well people perform in front of crowds.
I donate all spillover Karma to the charity of my choice... Ada was still a babe despite what people may say...
All these worlds are yours
except Europa
Attempt no landings there
Use them together
Use them in peace
Execute? [Y/N] _
You got that bit right, at least.
Do you have any idea how valuable a sample of alien life (even the most primitive algae) would actually be? Any exobiologist would give his eye-teeth to be able to study a sample of alien DNA-eqivalent. It would change the field of comparative biology from pure speculation to hard science - heck, the confirmation that life exists (or existed) outside the earth would probably be the most significant thing we have ever discovered.
Think about it: finally, PROOF that life can emerge and evolve given half a chance, PROOF that the earth is not a cosmic accident or God's little private joke. Liquid gold does not compare in value, and nor does oil, not even with two frat-boy oilmen in the Oval Office.
"I will take the Ring," he said, "though I do not know the way."
Its in antartica, about the size of lake ontario, but it is under a glacier 4000 meters thick. Scientists think that the lake has been covered for between 500000 to 1 million years. They also belive that life exists down there, the heat from the earth is enough to sustain life the think. Maybe when we discover whats down there, we can have a refrence for other subteranian oceans.
"Cornflakes are not the innocent critters they seem"- Sterling Morrison
This could be cool! Maybe we can go surfing on Ganymede soon?
Lemon curry?
Sounds like you're misinformed. It would take very futuristic technology to drill that deep on Earth, never mind sending the necessary equipment on a space probe.
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Hmm, it's an interesting thought.
"Informative"? Wow, here's a case where apparently neither the poster nor the moderator read the article.
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What have you got against algae? Multicellular life evolved very late in the geologic record on Earth, basically as an inconsequential afterthought. Bacteria are the dominant life-form on our planet. Chances are that there is life elsewhere in the solar system, but it's likely to be single-celled.
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there seems to be more and more evidence accumulating which seems to point to life being very, very common. I mean, even if there is no life no Mars on Ganymede or anywhere else in the solar system than Earth, doesn't just the fact that these planets *have* water tip the Drake Eq to there being billions of life forms on other planets in the Universe, and perhaps just in our galaxy?
I think we need to start spending large amounts of money, right away, to find out if there really is life on any of these planets or moons. If there is, say we find the fossils of some life form on Mars, I think we need to immediately begin a massive project to search for planets(Hubble-replacement, anyone?) and a larger radio telescope(or array) to search for signals. If life occured two or more separate times in our solar system alone, it would seem to be nearly immpossible that it hasn't occured many times elsewhere. And if it has occured elsewhere, it also nearly nearly immpossible that we are the most advanced civilization in existence(i.e. that no other ETI is out there looking).
If there are any little green men out there, it's our obligation as an intelligent race to try to find them.
> they have yet to find any water on any planet for sure. Isn't Earth a planet?
I think they need to set up a website with pictures and we can all vote to see if it's an ocean or not.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
Man, there's a new scary movie idea.
on the other hand, they have yet to find any water on any planet for sure.. yet
This explains why I've been thirsty all my life here on earth.
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I'm just an ordinary man with nothing to lose.
According to the article, there is not an ocean ON it, but under it. The ocean lies 90-120 miles under the crust, hence making it harder to detect. The Galileo craft did magnetic analysis earlier this year and picked up readings that could indicate a salt-water ocean because of its magnetic properties. Its not as simple as just looking at the moon and seeing the ocean.
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Kevin Mitchell
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CitizenC
Try Enlightenment Ganymede.
a/s/l here. Sorry, adding domain tags to your s
Sorry, but most comets contain sizable amounts of water.
If science is so predictable, what will be the rage in fifty years? You can't compare what crackpots think are happening during alien abductions with discoveries like this.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Aye, the next thing we'll pick up from Galileo is a faint transmission:
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS...
Despite what your weight would be. The temperature on Ganymede would be -297 to -171 degrees farenheit according to this site. It also has many other interesting facts about Ganymede & other planets and their moons.
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But, IANAP (I am not a planetologist *grin*)
D
This article looks suspiciously similar to reports I saw last year regarding ice-covered oceans suspected on Europa [Scientific America 1999, 'The Hidden Oceans of Europa'].
All right I now count 5 bodies in this solar system that have, had could or could have had life on/in it. Earth, Mars, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. But that's just life as we know it, not life as we don't it, that might live in lower tempratures or have strange chemistries and what not. Still, everytime they publish something like this the Drake equation goes up a notch. And that is really fascinating.
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
You'd only be "(pleasantly) surprised" to find life anywhere else? Either you're assuming it already exists--in my estimation a large assumption--or don't attach much significance to such a discovery, for inability to communicate over vast distances or somesuch.
I realize that you probably mis-spoke, but the phrase struck me as funny. I daresay many other would be more than "pleasantly suprised" if they found any thing as interesting as an extraterristial mold.
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$tar -xvf
Why is water so important? It's an excellent solvent for which reactions can take place in, it has plenty of unique properties and it is also involved in many biochemical reactions itself.
So the presence of water is a strong indication that life *might* be on water-holding planets.
So what? Many people don't care if there's life out there. The fact is, if we discovered life on Mars, Ganymede and Europa, then it's pretty much a dead cert that life is *everywhere* in the universe. If that implication doesn't bother you, I don't think I know what does.
(1) I said 'As far as we know', because while it's true that most experts agree that water is necessary for life, not all of them do.
It's universally agreed that water is required for our kind of life, i.e. cellular based life, but what about other types of life that you see depicted in some of the more realistic SF novels? Those hydrogen gas-bags in Clarke's 2001 series aren't completely implausible.
I recently interviewed Dr. Jack Cohen from Warwick University about the plausibility of extra-terrestrial life, including whether water was a prequisite for my site Astrobiology: The Living Universe. You can read the interview here.
It may have a weird shape and color, but it will be DNA-based.
For a long time I got annoyed by books/tv programmes/whatever that talked about 'alien dna'. However, I've come to realise that any life -- wherever it originates -- is likely to be DNA based. Not will be, I hasten to add, but likely to be. Why? Because the building blocks are very common.
Despite all the talk in science fiction of silicon based lifeforms, it's still far more likely that anything will be carbon based. Any life is likely to use what we call organic molecules; scientists have even calculated that adenine, one of the four bases, can be formed in space. Given the prevalance of amino acids around the universe, I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to find life anywhere based on anything else. I'd say, though, that DNA based life is, if not ubiquitous, then at least common.
Nit-picking? probably. I do agree that alien life would be phenomenally interesting from a scientific POV, but to echo the original poster, the ocean still holds untold secrets, from which we have much, much to learn.
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Recent explorations in the deep sea, much deeper than the penetration of light would allow, have found life much more complicated than algae. It turns out that life, even as we know it, only requires energy to survive; it just so happens that most of the life on this planet use energy from the sun. However, some life, even here on Earth, have developed such that they can draw life-sustaining energy from vents in the bottom of the ocean, and geothermal energy deep in the mantle.
However, one issue the article doesn't mention is the fantastic pressures that must be involved. A liquid trapped under 100 miles of ice would be under tremendous pressure--IANAS (I am not a scientist) but I would expect that the liquid could be a result of the pressurization itself, rather than any heat source. I dunno if the pressure would be enough to prevent life, but I expect it might be.
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Do I really need to list them? While he hasn't been "right on" on many of his predictions he's been so close as to not matter.
I think most of the folks who read Slashdot know enough about Clarke to know that without him the communication age we live in now would not exist.
What else is there to say? If you bothered reading his books you would know what I was talking about. "Read? Uh, what's that?"
Sure clarke is a great author. (Although strangely I don't think 2001 is his best stuff. (not that it isn't really damn good ...) Check out A fall of Moondust and The Deep Range for a slightly different style) But is your statement really true?
I think most of the folks who read Slashdot know enough about Clarke to know that without him the communication age we live in now would not exist.
Think about it ... if he had never existed would the change anything? I doubt it. The so called communication age is more of a by-product of world war two and the following cold war than anything having to do with clarke. I guess I think of it as military interest in certain areas giving the buisiness sector a slight push in one direction ... and that push was enough to start a self sustaining cycle of progress. Yeah, that sounds good ... :-)
"There's no secret. You just press the accelerator to the floor and keep turning left." -- Bill Vukovich
AFAIK this is just what's being discussed for the Europa-ocean probe. It'll need a power supply for the instruments anyway, so you might as well just use that to keep it warm for the "drilling."
I'd like to point out, however, that your original post made it sound like you were claiming there was a definite plan for a particular probe to be sent. From the pages you linked to, it sounds more like blue-sky speculation. Most of the articles talk about burrowing a few km deep on earth, and mention Europa only as a far-out future application. One of them claims that the ice on Europa might be thinner than most people are assuming, but that doesn't seem to be the standard version.
But anyhow, I appreciate your taking the time out to educate me (and other Slashdotters).
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Yeah. A testament to Massachusetts Public School System.
I'm not a biologist anyway, but I seem to remember reading about life that survived near deep-sea volcanic vents. That would require that the core of the satelites be moltent. The liquid rock could then account for the magnetic field cancelling out the reason for believing there is a liquid ocean of water or otherwise.
Interesting, nonetheless.
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Hmm, at those temps, don't you think the water will be frozen? Hmm? And, well, gee, a large chunk of frozen water hardly constitutes an "ocean", doncha think?
Moron. Yes, it'd be downright chilly, and I'd bet the air wouldn't be breathable. Haven't you ever heard of a little thing called a "space suit"? They have air, and heaters too, Granted, they're kinda cumbersome, but hey, we've already used them, on the Moon, to play golf. I doubt surfing would be *much* less plausible.
Lemon curry?
This is interesting, its quite late though so I'll not be able to read the articles tomorrow... i guess you learn something every minute...
Shit adds up at the bottom...
Hey, maybe there's an advanced civilization underneath! Since they're stuck under a 120 mile crust, they can't see planets and stars, so they cannot discover universal gravitation, and cannot invent calculus. The college student dream!
Couldn't it be said that every planet is just a moon of Sol? Does it really matter that it is not revolving around a star?
karma is for the weak >)
They seemed to have a lot of information on that moon for not knowing there is an Ocean on it.
You know, all this money could be saved if they just went to Sri Lanka and asked Arthur C. Clarke what's exactly out there.
He's predicted so many things during his long literary career it's eerie.
It calls to question, if we're looking for the same things in space that we already haven't fully studied on earth, that we should be spending more time studying our ocean's depths. Who knows what "alien" life we might find?
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
>I wonder what kinda strange swimming thing might live in that water.
Nessie!!!
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I wonder what kinda strange swimming thing might live in that water.
Do i really need a sig?
"concluded that Jupiter's largest moon, Ganymede, may possess a huge salt-water ocean beneath its crusty surface."
That it may possess a huge slaty ocean beneath its surface doesn't sound very conclusive to me...
Nope, a comet is a ball of ice, so technicly it does have water, although it is frozen solid. Comets also have lots of dust and rock chunks frozen in them, so they would not be ideal to get water from, besides comets have extremely elliptical orbits, so the massive difference between summer and winter would make life highly unlikey...
Shit adds up at the bottom...
okay, what exactly is the significance of water there?
it's not as if it was on the surface - or even close to it. then it's been suggested that the water might be similar to our own oceans [including the oil spills? sorry, just can't help myself...].
that means of course, that it's unlikely to ever be able to support any type of plant life beyond primitive algaes [algii].
so what's the big deal? nobody is likely to fly all that distance to drill 120 miles through solid ice and rock and then pump up saltwater - heck they wouldn't do it if it was oil, or liquid gold, or 100% pure, liquid silicon.
not to mention that we wouldn't have the technology to do something like that in the first place.
let's face it, this is just another PR exploit by NASA trying to keep it's funding.
While I think NASA should get all the funding they want, I also believe that this type of non-news will be counterproductive in the long run. If they keep going in this way, it's likely that when they finally find something newsworthy, then noone will care.
Just an uniformed opinion...
Oh, I do encourage lesbianism. I don't encourage stupidity, and her post was stupid. The fact that she is a fat cow and could never get up onto a surf board makes it even more idiotic.
And at least I have the guts to post logged in.
Rami
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In this case, the ocean might be similar to Earth's mantle in function: the still-frozen crustal ice floats on it, much as the Earth's low-density continental and lithospheric rock "floats" on the denser, plastic mantle.
Just one more comment. It may be that some of the outer Solar System objects (Pluto and Charon, plus some of the outer-System moons) have no "geologic crust" in the sense of a separate rock component: they may be nothing more than large "dirty" snowballs which never differentiated. They would still have a "surface", however...
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Politics is about making compromises. Religion isn't. --Michael Horton
yes, you do look really stupid. I would much rather see my tax dollars go to the exploration of space, expanding the frontiers of knowledge for all humans, than pay for a free meal like pusswad deadbeats like yourself. get a fucking job you communist
back in middle school, of course that was only 4 years ago, but it sure seems like a long time. Anyway, I don't see why it would be such a huge deal, as it seems like there should be plenty of places in the universe that likely have water, it just needs to be warm/cool enough. BTW, I don't know why everyone seems to think water=life. It would certainly be theoreticly possible for life to survive without water, and it is also possible for a planet to have no life even with water. Of course, we need water to live, so we assume that all 'life' would need it, which is certainly not true. The 'water' on ganymede is actually an underground ocean, which could be heated geothermally (I know geo- isnt the proper prefix for this, seeing as how it isnt the earth, but I dont know what else to call it.)
:)
What I really want to see is some actual mars exploration going on. Time to terraform.... heheh, just watched The Arrival today...
Shit adds up at the bottom...
Sorry, couldnt resist!
:)
The title suggests that Ganymede has an ocean on its surface. The article clearly says that it has an ocean below its crust! What's more is that it says there might be a stable layer of water trapped between two layers of ice 90 to 120 miles below the surface of Ganymede.
I'm looking at this a bit differently. The water on Ganymede sounds like it could be analogized to the mantle underneath the Earth's crust. It's convection and movement is responsible for the Earth's magnetic field, and it is a melted version of the crust above it. The analogy is a stretch, but I think that is a more accurate way of viewing what this water actually is. Granted, this is still an analogy...
Water vapor, supposedly, definately no liquid water on venus though, plus the whole sulfuric acid rain thing. Not my idea of a vacation, huh?
Shit adds up at the bottom...