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Non-Traditional Keyboard Reviews

Posted by Hemos on from the will-it-help-my-wrists? dept.

A reader writes "MSNBC has posted a story about 3 weird new keyboards - the Keybowl, the DataHand, and the Half Keyboard. Pretty bizarre stuff." Both Rob and I played around with the one from Ergointerfaces who are releasing an updated version soon - and we had AskSlashdot on it a while ago - but what do you folks think?

84 of 197 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Half Keyboard idea by Halcyon-X · · Score: 2

    How did you get a company to produce your product from that idea?

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  2. Re:typing speed by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

    No. The conclusion of the study was that "no competing keyboard has offered enough advantage to warrant a change."

    That is to say, Dvorak's advantages aren't enough to overcome the time it takes to relearn for someone who already knows QWERTY. That is not the same as having no advantages. It's also rather subjective - I found Dvorak rather easy to learn, but it might be more difficult for others.

    Consider that the study was done before "carpal tunnel" was part of the vernacular. The layout might have more advantages than typing speed, which is the only thing they considered.

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  3. It's not the keyboard stupid! by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 2
    It's the fit of the keyboard to the person.

    In a report from IBM, that I read in 1996, it's not the keyboard or the shape of the keyboard, but it is how well the keyboard fits the user. Watch the position of the keyboard to the mouse, the user, and the display. It helps to use the same keyboard at each computer that you use.

    No matter how good the keyboard is, there is no substitute for proper breaks, stretching, and warm-up.

    How do I know? I lived with keyboard problems.

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  4. It seems... by jonfromspace · · Score: 2

    ...silly to me that companies push keyboards that are inferior to the qwerty model. Are there not keyboards out there that are superior? It makes NO sense to use a keybaord that slows your typing down, regardless of ergonomics or the "coolness" factor. I hope the dotcom meltdown gets these guys too. Besides, another genneration or two of Dragon/Viavoice, and we won't need a keyboard.

    um.. I done, you can stop reading...

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    1. Re:It seems... by JanneM · · Score: 2

      It makes NO sense to use a keybaord that slows your typing down, regardless of ergonomics or the "coolness" factor

      ...until you actually get RSI. It is painful, it is awkward (try picking stuff up with your wrists immobilized) and, believe me, it slows your typing down much more than those keyboards will.

      Actually, I find 'ergonomic' keyboards (those I've tried) to be no better in themselves at reducing RSI. The problem is really not the position, but the fact that you do the same thing over and over. What does help is varying your position; switching between two different keyboards, switching between sitting and standing (you need a way to raise the keyboard and monitor), taking frequent brakes, and avoiding the mouse.

      Besides, another genneration or two of Dragon/Viavoice, and we won't need a keyboard

      Hmmm... talking to your computer all day. That's a recipe for laryngitis if Iv'e ever seen one. And I can imagine the noise level at a bysy department with fifty people dictating to their WP. Or an airplane full with people working. I think voice control is not nearly as good an idea as it seems at first.

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    2. Re:It seems... by seebs · · Score: 2

      I'd rather type slower for twenty years, without serious pain, than type faster for five years, lose the use of my fingers, and be in excruciating pain.

      Ergonomics is more important than speed. Period.

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  5. Re:You missed the point by Matias · · Score: 2

    1. With that amount of retraining, one might as well learn a new layout -- one that is optimal, which would increase speed and decrease the error rate.

    Actually, that's not true. It would take you a lot longer to learn an entirely new layout (~10 to 120 times as long).

    It would take about 30 hours of practice to ackieve 22 wpm on a new keyboard layout, versus (thanks to skill transfer) about 3 hours on a HalfKeyboard. One journalist that reviewed the product got that fast after only 15 minutes of practice.

    Besides, using the left hand on a HalfKeyboard is pretty close to optimal. It is more optimal than Half-Dvoark and also more optimal than a chord keyboard. References are in the paper.

    1. From the article: "Half-QWERTY is based on the principle that the human brain controls typing movements according to the finger used, rather than the spatial position of the key."

      It's well worth noting that in playing piano, the human brain *does* *not* rely on using the same finger on the key each time.

    You are correct, and that (in part) is why it takes so long to learn to play piano. The hand mapping on a piano violates body symmetry. Also, there generally is no skill transfer involved, whereas the HalfKeyboard was designed to facilitate skill transfer.

    1. The research would be far more meaningful if you'd included tests for optimal keyboards. Would a user pick up the skills just as quickly for a completely new layout?

    This research has been done by others, and is discussed in the paper. As I said, it would take a lot longer to learn an optimal layout.

    1. I understand that the QWERT layout might appear to be easier to market. But the people choosing your keyboard are deeply self-interested: they're looking for a specialized solution to a particular problem. They're willing to put up with the hassles and time commitment to learn the new tool -- why shouldn't they be interested in an optimized solution?

    Well, you tell me... If there were 2 one-handed keyboards for sale, an optimal one that took 30 hours to learn, and a near-optimal one that took 15 minutes to learn, which one would you buy?

    Also, the optimal keyboard would require you to memorize a whole new keyboard layout, and re-learn how to type. The near-optimal layout requires no memorization and uses your existing typing skills.

    Which one do you think most people would want?

    Edgar

  6. Slow down but also speed up by yerricde · · Score: 2

    QWERTY was designed to split common digraphs between hands. This reduces jams (which occurred when adjacent letters were pressed) and has the side effect of making typing faster.
    Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo.

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  7. Re:typing speed by PurpleBob · · Score: 2

    Actually, the majority of typing is done with letters on the left side of the keyboard. I think the split is something like 70%/30%. Clusters on the left side are more common than "left right left right" patterns.
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  8. Re:Half Keyboard idea by Matias · · Score: 2

    1. How did you get a company to produce your product from that idea?

    Well, it's my company that's producing the product. I wasn't too difficult to convince.

    Edgar

  9. Isn't the pattern wrong? by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 2

    Looking at the way I use my fingers when I touch type, shouldn't it be

    q=[ w=p e=o r=i t=u y=y (you have t=y)
    a=; s=l d=k f=j g=h (as you have)
    z=. x=, c=m v=n b=b (you have b=n)

    ?

    It costs an extra key and extra width, but I would have thought it would be worth it?
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  10. Re:Half Keyboard inventor reads /. by FFFish · · Score: 2

    Here's my big question:

    Why on *earth* is it a QWERT layout (looks like the Y got whacked by a function key)?!

    I should think that when cutting the number of keys to a minimum, it would be imperative to put the most-used keys at the easiest-to-access level. Q and Z could be submerged three levels deep and no one is likely to much miss them... but bury "i" beneath a function-shift, and we're talking a major PITA.

    It sure looks to me like the user is going to have to relearn to type, what with having to do everything with one hand -- so why not have them learn something efficient?


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  11. Re:The Keyboard market is a good example... by FFFish · · Score: 3

    Out of morbid curiousity, I must ask... how did you mistype "QWERTY" as "QUERTY"?!?!


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  12. I can just see the keybowl.... by kenthorvath · · Score: 3

    ... being advertised in the next issue of high times.

  13. I'm been through all this by KevinMS · · Score: 2


    I have a datahand, I have that scooped out keyboard that flashes buy on the front page of http://www.ergointerfaces.com/, I've gone through lots of ordinary keyboards because they hurt in verying degrees, let me share what I know.

    The Kenesis (scooped out keyboard), nice shape, really crappy key action, a nightmare.

    Datahand, very nice hardware and construction, very very very expensive. Taking dictation is one thing, but using a shell and emacs, with all the key combinations, requires a whole other level of proficiency. Also a warning, after suffering RSI for a while I got a datahand, learned how to use it, got allured into the speed and short movements, and crashed and burned. Was in pain for months.

    Just bought a Logitec remote keyboard, real harsh action. The Logitec fancy trackball, whatever its called (FX), was so bad I had to take it back because of the difficult buttons.

    The real secret to low impact keyboarding is typing with two fingers, period. And if thats to uncomfortable use two pencils held in a stabbing position, erasures down.

    If you feel any typing pain at all run out and get this book: "Its not carpel tunnel syndrome".

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    1. Re:I'm been through all this by KevinMS · · Score: 2


      I should add that the hand pads on the datahand are very hard. If your hands are sensitive to pressure, maybe because of resting them on the edge of a desk for years, these will hurt, they could be made of wood and you wouldnt notice the difference. I suggested using a much softer material, like those gel wrist cushions or senco stuff but they ignored me.

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  14. I'm faster with a Kinesis. by MemRaven · · Score: 2
    I've been using nothing but Kinesis Ergo keyboards for a while now (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com) and not only has it almost completely resolved my RSI problems, but I'm also both faster AND more accurate than I have been with any other keyboard.

    Since my fingers don't move as much and they don't move in such odd ways, just about the only time I have to hit the backspace key is when I change my mind about what I have to type, not just because I hit the wrong key. BIG productivity gain there.

    I was FAST with an ordinary keyboard, compared to the general population (about 80-100wpm burst when coding). I'm past 120wpm with the kinesis burst rate, and people always look at my fingers when I sit down to type something because they seem like they're moving so fast.

    So there you go. Faster and more ergo. It's not as radical as something like the KeyBowl, but it's a good alternative.

  15. sorry, these are all popular MYTHS... by Preposterous+Coward · · Score: 4
    ...or, some would argue in the case of the Dvorak keyboard, hoaxes. Business schools that are still using any of these examples are, unfortunately, promulgating misinformation. The "I use it becaue everybody else does" argument is based on a phenomenon known as "network effects" (i.e., as the network of users of a technology grows, the value of the technology typically grows on the order of n^2 rather than linearly with n, fax machines being the traditional example). The supposed first-mover-but-inferior-technology advantage is described as "path dependence".

    Anyway, on to the fun part: Demolishing the myths. The Dvorak keyboard may indeed be more "logical" than QWERTY, but it doesn't seem anybody can actually cite any well-controlled, objective studies that demonstrate superior performance. Most of the early claims of its alleged superiority were provided by none other than the keyboard designer (and patent-holder -- no economic self-interest there!) August Dvorak himself.

    Here is an article by two economists that rather thoroughly demolishes the claimed superiority of Dvorak. Discussing the results of one controlled comparison test:

    In the first phase of Strong's experiment ten government typists were retrained on the Dvorak keyboard. It took well over twenty-five days of four-hour-a-day training for these typists to catch up to their old Qwerty speed. (Compare this to the claim David makes about the Navy study's results that the full retraining costs were recovered in ten days.) When the typists had finally caught up to their old speed Strong began the second phase of the experiment. The newly trained Dvorak typists continued training and a group of ten Qwerty typists began a parallel program to improve their skills. In this second phase the Dvorak typists progressed less quickly with further Dvorak training than did Qwerty typists training on Qwerty keyboards.

    Strong's study does leave some questions unanswered. Because it uses experienced typists it cannot tell us whether beginning Dvorak typists could be trained more quickly than beginning Qwerty typists.

    Of course, since all of us here (I assume) learned on Qwerty keyboards, that final caveat really doesn't matter.

    And there's more from the same piece -- this time from someone who is strong Dvorak supporter:

    He cites a 1973 study based on six typists at Western Electric where after 104 hours of training on DSK, typists were 2.6 percent faster than they had been on Qwerty. Similarly Yamada reports that in a 1978 study at Oregon State University after 100 hours of training typists were up to 97.6 percent of their old Qwerty speed.

    As for the oft-cited VHS vs. Betamax debate, there are numerous problems with the argument that the inferior, but first-to-market technology won. First is that Betamax was actually first to market -- 1975 vs. 1977. Second is that, picture quality aside, VHS was superior to Betamax in one critical dimension that consumers valued: Recording time. The original Betamax format only allowed one hour recordings, vs. four hours for VHS. Thus VHS allowed recording of an entire film, or even an entire American football game, on one cassette. Ad copy made a big deal about this capability. Third is that it's not even clear that Betamax offered the alleged advantage in video quality: In four reviews in Consumer Reports, the Betamax was judged superior to VHS twice, VHS superior to Betamax once, and both equivalent once. Taken together, these factors gave VHS a decisive advantage.

    I can't add anything to the Mac-Windows discussion that this audience won't have heard, but I think everyone recognizes that there were far more factors that led to the dominance of Wintel than the fact that it was simply first while Macs were technically better. Certainly lots of us here will remember how Apple used to command truly exorbitant prices for its systems, how it refused to license the OS to give people choices, how its systems lacked expandability, how DOS/Windows systems were compatible with existing software, how Apple abused developers while Microsoft showed them the love, how IBM and other PC manufacturers had strong relationships with brand specifiers in the businesses that were still buying most PCs at that time. Was the MacOS circa, say, 1986 technically superior to Windows at that time? Yeah, sure. But most people weren't buying an OS, they were buying an entire computer -- and looked at as a whole, the outcome of the Wintel-vs.-Mac battle is entirely reasonable without invoking the dubious path-dependence argument.

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  16. You missed the point by Matias · · Score: 2

    1. Here's my big question:

      Why on *earth* is it a QWERT layout (looks like the Y got whacked by a function key)?!

    From your question, you appear to have missed the point of this keyboard, which is facilitating skill transfer from standard touch typing.

    It does indeed work. Most touch typists pick it up very quickly. If you don't believe me, download the demo and try it for yourself. Alternatively, you could just read this:

    1. http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/people/ematias/papers/h ci96/

    Edgar

    1. Re:You missed the point by dbarclay10 · · Score: 2

      I'd also like to point out that under most operating systems the keys can be easily remapped; while you wouldn't be able to see which key was what on the board itself(unless you used stickers), you'd still be able to have whichever layout you'd like...

      Dave

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    2. Re:You missed the point by FFFish · · Score: 2

      It appears that for the bulk of your test subjects, it took about ten hours to achieve half the speed and twice the error rate.

      With that amount of retraining, one might as well learn a new layout -- one that is optimal, which would increase speed and decrease the error rate.

      From the article: "Half-QWERTY is based on the principle that the human brain controls typing movements according to the finger used, rather than the spatial position of the key."

      It's well worth noting that in playing piano, the human brain *does* *not* rely on using the same finger on the key each time. A beginner can pick up a surprising amount of skill in ten hours of piano lesson.

      The research would be far more meaningful if you'd included tests for optimal keyboards. Would a user pick up the skills just as quickly for a completely new layout? I'll wager that at the end of the ten hours, they'd be both faster and more accurate than the QWERT users.

      I understand that the QWERT layout might appear to be easier to market. But the people choosing your keyboard are deeply self-interested: they're looking for a specialized solution to a particular problem. They're willing to put up with the hassles and time commitment to learn the new tool -- why shouldn't they be interested in an optimized solution?


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  17. Re:Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, arrow keys? by dbarclay10 · · Score: 2

    Thank you for your reply :) I looked as closely as I could; but I couldn't see properly enough. I'll save it and use The Gimp to scale it up; I'll also visit your homepage.

    But I'm still interested to know if *you* could use it on a day-to-day, fulltime basis. I'll take your work on the fact that it's functionally a full-sized keyboard(and I'll be able to tell for myself, shortly), but the company seems to be targeting handhelds and the like. I'm looking for a one-handed desktop keyboard replacement, and I'm not interested in five-buttoned chording keyboards ;) So, could you use it fulltime? I'm not too worried about performance; that's a secondary factor for me. I'm mostly worried about space(which your keyboard is obviously good with), functionality(which seems to be full), and that nebulous "feel" which allows one to use it for long durations(which I'm not sure about) :)

    Thanks again,

    Dave

    Barclay family motto:
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    (Either action or death.)

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  18. Re:typing speed by Don+Negro · · Score: 2
    Unless memory fails me, the timed-motion specialist in charge of that study was one August Dvorak.

    I would take its results with the appropriate seasoning.

    Don Negro

    Don Negro

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  19. Good enough for prime time? by Matias · · Score: 2

    • Thank you for your reply :) I looked as closely as I could; but I couldn't see properly enough.

    Okay, try this: http://halfkeyboard.com/resources/hk4palm/800.jpg.

    • I'm looking for a one-handed desktop keyboard replacement, and I'm not interested in five-buttoned chording keyboards ;) So, could you use it fulltime?

    Yes, of course. People are buying it for that very purpose. In fact, we've pre-sold more HalfKeyboards for PCs than for Handspring PDAs.

    • that nebulous "feel" which allows one to use it for long durations(which I'm not sure about) :)

    No need to worry about the feel. It uses the same type of keyswitches found on IBM laptops. They are the best in the business, and higher quality than most desktop keyboards. It's a really nice keyboard.

    Edgar

    1. Re:Good enough for prime time? by dbarclay10 · · Score: 2

      Thanks again :) I found and downloaded the demo :) Which, I might add, was for Windows only. Had to borrow a friend's computer :)

      For me, it's difficult to use, but I see what you guys talk about when you say that it's easy - the brain mirrors what each hand knows. I am, unfortunately, very right-centric; in a lot of things. I use my right hand on more than half the keyboard, so it'll take some getting used to, but I'm going to give it a try.

      Thanks again, and you've sold me :)

      Dave

      Barclay family motto:
      Aut agere aut mori.
      (Either action or death.)

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  20. What problems with the Kinesis? by MemRaven · · Score: 2
    I've used them for a couple of years now, after I realized that the Maltron wasn't a solution (worst built keyboard I've ever used. The layout and key-feel was wonderful, but it broke easily, looked so cheap my manager always bugged me about it, and wouldn't work properly under linux becuase of crazy things they did with the symcodes).

    I've used several of them (when I wear one out I get a new one, usually because ash from cigarettes gets into the keyboard because I smoke by it) and I've never had problems. I love mine. What problems have you had with the key action? I've always loved it.

    1. Re:What problems with the Kinesis? by KevinMS · · Score: 2

      Requires much more force than most keyboards I've used. You may not be bother by this because your ailments might be more of a result of movement rather than force. If you ever used a datahand you'd realize that you could almost breath on a key to press it.

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    2. Re:What problems with the Kinesis? by MemRaven · · Score: 2
      The Maltron Home Page.

      They're slightly more expensive than the Kinesis, but it's the same basic concept. Slightly different. I tried the Maltron before the Kinesis, and now I prefer the Kinesis. Be forewarned, though, I had some issues running Debian with my Maltron, but that was a LOOOOOOONG time ago (with the 2.0 kernel), so I dunno if they work now.

      If you like the general system for the Kinesis, but don't like the key action, you might like the Maltron quite a bit. Mushier keys. But if your problem is with key motion, the keys are actually farther away from each other (and larger) than the Kinesis, so it probably won't help. My problem's with Pronation, so both work fine for me.

    3. Re:What problems with the Kinesis? by MemRaven · · Score: 2
      Yup, my problems were always caused by wrist motion (specifically, pronation) and the fact that my hands are kept completely neutral and stable throughout my typing with a Kinesis is probably what's made the most difference.

      The Maltron (you might want to try it) has very mushy keys, probably too mushy for my tastes. Quite frankly, when I don't have a significant tactile response to the keys it REALLY frustrates me and my typing accuracy goes way down. But then again the second fastest keyboard I've ever used was one of the PS/2 keyboards with the "Click" sounds, and even though my fingertips were numb at the end of typing on it I was hitting > 100wpm.

      Have you ever tried the Maltron?

    4. Re:What problems with the Kinesis? by KevinMS · · Score: 2


      no, what the heck is a maltron?

      btw, if anybody wants to try my kinesis and see if it works for you and you live in the boston area drop me an email, I'll meet you at a starbucks or something. I'm not lending out my datahand, needless to say, it costs five times as much :)

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  21. Re:typing speed by electricmonk · · Score: 2
    QWERTY is designed for fast typing

    No, actually, at its inception (sometime in the 20's or 30's), QWERTY was designed to actually slow people down, to prevent jams and other mishaps that were associated with fast typing on one of those old typewriters. Notice that all but one vowel is located somewhere other than on the "home" keys, for example.

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  22. why would I want to pay that much? by garcia · · Score: 2

    these products seem to solve the problems of the past, but they honestly seem VERY expensive. $399 for the two upsidedown bowl things... There has to be a more economical way.

    The fact of learning a new way to type would also pose a problem, but not as big of one as the cost.

    I had a class my freshman year in college w/a blind student. He had a small little computer that he used for taking notes. It was a CHORD Keyboard from what I remember, four keys and he could enter whatever he wanted (anyone know ever see these and could explain more would be nice). He said it took him only a few mins to learn and he oculd type fast as hell w/it. I thought that would be a better alternative than these but what do I know...

    1. Re:why would I want to pay that much? by weston · · Score: 2

      from what I remember, four keys and he could enter whatever he wanted

      If keys are only up or down, the number of combinations possible for 4 keys should be the same as 4 bits -- 16. That is, there are 16 possible up/down arrangements for pressing 4 keys.

      So I can't imagine the scenario was just up down....


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  23. Re:typing speed by Spoing · · Score: 2
    Not to be harsh, but weren't the DVORAK speed studies and key-sticking issues found to be urban myths? QWERTY isn't optimal, but it's not too bad.

    Personally I don't see any real benifit for either layout, and will use any keyboard that's available. For comfort I prefer the bent-layout keyboards like the Alps Wave I'm typing on now. (It came by default with a modified QWERTY arrangement.) The layout isn't much of a factor. Switching between keyboards is an easy skill to pick up.

    I've given live demos at CeBIT using four keyboards -- UK, French, Belgian, and German -- and found that I didn't need to look at them after a few minutes of practice.

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  24. Re:The Keyboard market is a good example... by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 2

    I think at some subconsious level, my brain has become hard-wired to place a 'U' after a 'Q'. I also have this problem where I ran out of sugar. Without sugar, I couldn't have coffee. Without coffee, I couldn't go out to get sugar. So I booted up my computer and logged onto Slashdot. I suppose that was my first mistake...

  25. Re:typing speed by iso · · Score: 2

    No, actually, at its inception (sometime in the 20's or 30's), QWERTY was designed to actually slow people down

    ok, i know this one is a myth. QWERTY was designed to make typewriter jams happen infrequently. this wasn't done by slowing people down, but rather making peopl type adjacent letters on alternate hands (as i mentioned in my original post).

    watch it when you type -- most words are spelled alternating back and forth. this was the primary method of keeping the keys from jamming. in most tests i've seen, QWERTY is arguably the same speed as a DVORAK keyboard, even though the latter is specifically designed to have often-used letters on the home row.

    - j

  26. Dvorak no myth by _|()|\| · · Score: 2
    Liebowitz and Margolis is a straw-man-beating meta article. It's an overreaction to off-the-cuff remarks that mention Sholes v. Dvorak in the same breath as Beta v. VHS.

    Salon has a more balanced article, based on real life experience. The author's experience echoes my own:

    • curiosity in a novel, intuitively appealing layout
    • experimentation, which gets nowhere until I start using it on the job
    • confusion, during which time I can type neither Sholes nor Dvorak
    • breakthrough after about a month
    I find it comfortable and intuitive. Despite years of practice with Sholes, I am slightly faster and more accurate with Dvorak. It is superior. However, if you're not committed to give it an honest effort for a month or so, you will be disappointed. I'm not a Dvorak evangelist, just a satisfied convert.
  27. Re:Before it gets started yet again... by G+Neric · · Score: 2
    So why do I think it's clearly better? Because it's clear to me that less finger movement is better and Dvorak puts more of the common letters on the home row.

    so, how does it work? are the { and } under the index fingers?

  28. Need some advice by fean · · Score: 2

    I have a friend in College right now, and she has an undiagnosed disease(the doctors she's seen have no idea what it is... imagine advanced arthritis), which causes her tendons to tighten after 10-20 minutes of typing. This means that she has been forced to use voice recognition software to type the papers due, and as a History and Lakotah (Native American Language, FYI) double major, she has a lot of typing to do, yet she can't get her voice recognition to type in Lakotah.

    does anyone out there know of any good, cheap keyboards like above, or any organizations founded to help out struggling college students in need of help like this? because there is no diagnosis, she is not qualified as "disabled", so she can't get help like that

  29. Re:The Keybowl... by alienmole · · Score: 2
    None of these vendors are trying to set new standards - rather, they're addressing specific niches - users with health problems, mobile users, and users who're looking for something a bit more efficient or just different. There'll always be a market for this stuff, but obviously, the Qwerty ain't goin' anywhere anytime soon.

    Me, I want MEMS accelerometers embedded in my fingertips so I can just wiggle my fingers and have text appear on the screen...

  30. My experience with the datahands... by Raleel · · Score: 2

    I got the chance to use the datahands once. Not bad at all. Took some getting used to, but a touch typist would have little problems at all. Each finger has an up, right, left, down and push in "key" that woudl correspond to the direction you'd go in to create the keystroke as a touch typist. For example, push in on the right index finger is j, left is h, etc...not bad if you are a touch typist.

    Of course, I am not ;)

    --
    -- Who is the bigger fool? The fool or the fool who follows him? --
  31. Another problem with Dvorak by logiceight · · Score: 2
    I once tried the Dvorak keyboard. With normal typing I noticed a huge difference in the amount of movement my finger did. I used the home keys alot more

    But I quickly ran into a problem. The problem was keyboard shortcuts.

    If you look at them they are chosen for the QWERTY keyboard.

    Undo Z
    Cut X
    Copy C
    Paste X
    Select All A
    Find F
    Quit Q
    Close W

    This is for the mac but most of these are similar on windows.

    Of course on DVORAK these keys are all over the place.

    So if you wanted to make a "better" keyboard layout you would have to take this into account.

    I thought I might make a custom keyboard taking this into account. Of course this would take a lot of effort. And I am not a programmer and that does not help

    1. Re:Another problem with Dvorak by bn557 · · Score: 2

      you can always use key sequences like shift-insert and such in the place of ctrl-v.

      This is what I've done. I have switched over to dvorak at a doctor's recomendation. I had been doing data entry for a few months and the dvorak layout provided a LITTLE relief. I was suffering from repetitive stress syndrome.

      --
      Humans are slow, innaccurate, and brilliant; computers are fast, acurrate, and dumb; together they are unbeatable
    2. Re:Another problem with Dvorak by dattaway · · Score: 2

      Or the shortcuts for vi:

      hjkl, where the right hand sits on a qwerty would be the cursor keys. Should a dvorak user remap the keys for all his software packages for every distribution that comes along?

      Well, dvorak was fun for me, so its qwerty once again. My fingers travel more on the qwerty, but the world effectively discriminates dvorak users.

  32. Before it gets started yet again... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 4

    The QWERTY keyboard was not designed for inefficiency, and the Dvorak keyboard is not clearly superior.

    The myth of the Dvorak keyboard will probably outlive us all, but ya gotta keep trying.


    --

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    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Before it gets started yet again... by DeeKayWon · · Score: 2

      Sure. Try This keyboard compare Java applet. Type in any real-world piece of text and compare how far your fingers would go, how many times you use the same finger/hand, and how many strokes are done on each row. You may be surprised.

    2. Re:Before it gets started yet again... by Mawbid · · Score: 2
      The fact that the Navy study that found the Dvorak layout so much more efficient was conducted by Dvorak himself casts doubt on the results. The urban legends article you linked to mentions that other studies "indicated no need to switch to the Dvorak keyboard", which pretty much ruins the credibility of Dvorak's findings if they ever had any.

      But it does not automatically follow that the Dvorak layout is not more efficient (or better for reasons other than efficiency).

      I took an interest in Dvorak a year ago or so and tried to retrain myself to use it. It was too hard and I gave up, but I still think Dvorak is clearly superior to QWERTY. That doesn't mean I think it's a lot better, just better, and that it's clear that it is. It also doesn't mean I think it's worth switching for someone with QWERTY experience.

      So why do I think it's clearly better? Because it's clear to me that less finger movement is better and Dvorak puts more of the common letters on the home row. If you list the words in the English language, in decreasing order of frequency, and mark the ones that can be typed using only the home row on a Dvorak keyboard with a D and the ones that can be typed using only the home row on a QWERTY keyboard with a Q, you get a lot more D's than Q's, especially near the beginning of the list. This affects typing speed, but I also think it affects the risk of injury, which no study has dealt with as far as I know.

      It's worth mentioning that I'm not impressed with studies showing subjects achieving greater typing speed after switching to Dvorak from QWERTY. They had to train to become that fast on a Dvorak. Who's to say the same amount of training on a QWERTY keyboard wouldn't have improved their speed even more?

      BTW, I've heard the name of this Dvorak is pronounced pretty much like it's spelled, unlike the name of the composer. Is that correct? What about the columnist?
      --

      --
      Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
    3. Re:Before it gets started yet again... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2

      and i swear i can type a lot more accurately with it with close to 140+ wpm when my mind can keep up...

      What bullshit. There are lies, damn lies, and then there are claims of typing speed.

      The world record for typing speed is 150 WPM, sustained. Interestingly, she prefers the Dvorak keyboard and can sustain 170 WPM. Doesn't suprise me; I'm sure a more efficient layout pays dividends at the very high end where finger efficiency is really going to pay a price.

      Anyway, just wanted to call bullshit when I see it.


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      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
  33. Why this won't help much... by Thalia · · Score: 2

    The reality is that most of us don't work at the same computer all the time. (I have at least 5 computers that I work with.) I expect that it takes installing some sort of interface to make it work. So, I'd have to either drag around a keyboard wherever I go, or install 5 of these puppies. Plus, it still wouldn't help when I used the laptop.

    Also, as someone who has done the Dvorak keyboard game in college, switching back and forth is a pain.

    So, nothing for me. I'm still waiting for the dataglove that I can just wear & it'll wirelessly interface with whatever computer I'm using.

    Thalia

  34. Half Keyboard inventor reads /. by Matias · · Score: 5

    Hey Folks,

    I'm the inventor of the Half Keyboard. Feel free to post any questions...

    Edgar

    1. Re:Half Keyboard inventor reads /. by beckett · · Score: 2

      is it possible for the reverse half-keyboard to be made for lefties?

    2. Re:Half Keyboard inventor reads /. by dbarclay10 · · Score: 2

      Hey, that keyboard looks cool; and useful. Of the three featured there, that's the one I'm interested in.

      I've been looking for an alternative keyboard for a while(for full-time use), and I've considered Kenesis keyboard, but they don't tickle my fancy.

      I'd like to know, in all honesty, if you could use this on a day-to-day, fulltime basis. Little things; does it have Home, End, PgUp, PgDown, arrow keys? Full punctuation keys?

      Thanks in advance,

      Dave

      Barclay family motto:
      Aut agere aut mori.
      (Either action or death.)

      --

      Barclay family motto:
      Aut agere aut mori.
      (Either action or death.)
  35. Re:User Pain by fmaxwell · · Score: 2
    I am sick and tired of seeing all these articles about poor computer users. For crying out loud, I have been clacking away for 20 years and have never had a problem.

    Not everyone responds identically to every physical activity. What injures one person might not even bother another. Why not consider yourself lucky instead of berating people who suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome?

    If people would just use some sense when they are typing, we wouldn't need to waste development money on designing new keyboards.

    And just what is "common sense" that these people are not using? Maybe you feel that people who work in data entry jobs should just quit or take more breaks than they are allowed?

    At this point they are just fine.

    No, the one-size-fits-all keyboards are not "fine." If they were, people would not be getting carpal tunnel syndrome from them, would they?

    Noone ever got carpal tunnel from using a typewriter.

    You are right. We developed carpal tunnels in the womb. Carpal tunnel syndrome was a term first used in the 1930's to describe an entrapment neuropathy of the median nerve at the wrist. The first open carpal tunnel release surgical procedure was described in 1947. Do you think that those people got it from computers?

  36. Find more data by Thalia · · Score: 2
    You can find an excellent review of existing keyboards & suggestions for improvements here. I especially like the Alternative Keyboard Gallery which includes images and descriptions of many keyboard styles. When this data glove becomes reality, I might well spend the big bucks.

    Thalia

  37. Data glove is exactly right by apsmith · · Score: 2

    Wireless and wearable and responsive to natural motions of each finger - that looks to me like the only thing sufficiently better than QWERTY keyboards to actually get people to switch. So has anybody tried putting this together with Bluetooth (or is there another wireless protocol that would work)?

    --

    Energy: time to change the picture.

  38. Sticky keys? by Ukab+the+Great · · Score: 2


    Yes, I know that sticky keys are a common outcome of typing one-handed (someone would make the joke sooner or later, might as well get it over with).

    But seriously--Can the half-keyboard do "sticky keys" (i.e. the ability to hit a modifier button like shift, alt, etc just once, depress the key, and then be able to another key to get a single modified character) in hardware? Or does it rely on the good graces of whatever OS it's running under to support support sticky keys? If someone needs to operate the half-keyboard with just one finger and they had no OS sticky key support, this would be an important feature.

  39. Re:What us hackers need... by tesserae · · Score: 2
    The datahand idea is maybe not too bad. but I'd rather be able to move my hands around freely while having the "keyboards" strapped to my hands...

    Interesting that you said that. Years ago I saw some info on an early prototype of the Datahand; in this particular incarnation, each handpad acted as a mouse -- one for coarse control, the other fine (like a vernier). You had to move your hands around...

    Of course, it's not clear that they're worse off for having dropped that idea. :)

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    Politics is about making compromises. Religion isn't. --Michael Horton

  40. DataHand report by jonabbey · · Score: 2

    I did software development almost exclusively using the DataHand for 2-3 years before it started breaking down on me (whereupon I went out and bought the much cheaper Kinesis Ergo to replace it).

    The DataHand took a couple of weeks to get full proficiency on, but once I did, I had no problem using it at rapid speeds. Software development on it using XEmacs posed no problems, and it was less painful than using a flat keyboard for me.

    However, after years of using it, I can say that it is not a magic bullet. The lateral forces you have to use with it, especially with your pinkies, can be more than a bit stressful. In addition, the whole design is intended to reduce movement in your hands and fingers. That's fine in theory, but in practice, reducing the major motions of the hands and arms also reduces blood flow, and as a diabetic, this was not doing me any major favors.

    The Kinesis is a bit better than a flat, and a whole lot cheaper than the DataHand, and it has the advantage of programmable macro keys, so I would recommend that someone try it before paying $1000 or so for the DataHand.

    For me, though, what helped most was taking Yoga classes regularly for a year. All the parts of the body are connected, and Yoga helps provide the strength, flexibility, and increased blood circulation to help the body withstand the rigors of sitting in a chair all day.

    Great for posture, as well, which *REALLY* does make a difference. One of the problems I had was thoracic outlet syndrome, where the thoracic nerves in my neck and shoulders were getting compressed from my terrible slouching.

    The take-away message here is that RSI is a very holistic (whole-body) kind of thing, and the very best way to take care of it is to take care of your whole body. These keyboards can help, but addressing one ergonomic factor in isolation can lead to other problems.

    --
    - jon

    Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
  41. Re:typing speed by whydna · · Score: 3

    The key sticking issue is not an "urban myth". It was designed with a two-fold purpose by Remmington in the late 1800's.

    Firstly, it was designed to reduce key-sticking (which we've already discussed). Secondly, it was designed so that the salespeople could demonstrate it's use without actually needing to know how to type. Thus "typewriter" can be written using only the first row.

    Actually, I did a science fair project, a few years ago (when I was in high school... It went to internationals, but anyways). It invloved producing a keyboard layout that had the most commonly used letters immediately below the fingers (I suppose it probably would be less effective for non-english speakers... but that's another issue). In comparisons with randomly laid out keyboards (it's hard to find adults without /any/ exposure to a QWERTY keyboard), people were able to type about 40% faster.

    Additionally the layout place commonly used digraphs (double letter combos) in easy to reach places (ie "th" is a mere finger roll, etc). While I'm not saying that my keyboard was the be-all-end-all, the results were conclusive enough to prove that "non-QWERTY" layouts may provide a faster alternative.

    -Andy

  42. Re:It's what you're used to by �nubis · · Score: 2
    I made the switch to Dvorak about a year ago. Admittedly the first few weeks were very slow, however after about a month I was touch typing at a decent speed. Because of my occasional use of Qwerty in computer labs and such, I can still touch type on Qwerty just as fast as I could before I made the switch.

    I have to agree that a major sticky point is that many programs have the standard shortcuts (c-Z, c-X, c-C, c-V, etc.) hard coded into them. However just use Emacs for everything and you won't have any problems. (You can remap all the controls to whatever you want.)

    Oh, and you can't forget the *real* reason to switch: the Geek Factor
    Often times people will start using my computer and then realize that what they're typing isn't what's appearing on the screen. Then they look down at the keyboard and realize how much of a geek I am. :) (I'm using a Dvorty board so they can switch it back to Qwerty with the press of a key.)

  43. Re:Dvorak Layout on a Kinesis Keyboard by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 2

    My only problem with it is hitting the [] and keys reliably. Otherwise, I like using my thumbs for most of the shifts and enter and backspace.
    -russ

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  44. buyer beware by q000921 · · Score: 3
    Whether these keyboards have any benefit when it comes to preventing RSI remains to be seen; they still require repetitive fine motor control and may simply transfer the problem from one area to another.

    Half-QWERTY, of course, is useful if, for one reason or another, you need to type one-handed.

  45. Tennis Elbow by Dungeon+Dweller · · Score: 2

    Yeah, instead of carpal tunnel sydrome, you'll have tennis elbow or a broken arm. What wonderful improvements on keyboards *GRIN*

    --
    Eh...
  46. Half Keyboard for Lefties by Matias · · Score: 2

    1. is it possible for the reverse half-keyboard to be made for lefties?

    We plan to release a right-hand model for lefties as well (in 2001).

    Edgar

  47. It's what you're used to by linuxci · · Score: 3
    Personally I believe you're more productive with what you're used to. I still use a normal size qwerty keyboard and am perfectly happy. I once used a MS Natural Keyboard and I just couldn't get used it it. Some people find these more useful, I suppose it depends on how used to these keyboards you are.

    I've seen people who have changed to a different keyboard layout altogether DVORAK or whatever it's called, it takes them ages to get used to it and then when they have to use a QWERTY keyboard then they're typing speed goes downhill as they've got used to the new layout.

    Know one keyboard layout and know it well, unfortunately that means we're stuck with QWERTY for the most part.

    Win cash with online games - a good test of Java support and plugins under Mozilla :)

  48. The DataHand by Flavio · · Score: 2

    I've actually seen something extremely similar to this on the Discovery Channel about 4 years ago. It was about this biker who pedaled across the US with a computer on the back "seat".

    Solar cells (which I believe he could extend when we wasn't on the road for larger power generation) powered the computer and he actually typed while riding because he had a similar type of keyboard in each hand.

    I've been wanting to see such a thing for a long time, and this could be the same company.

    Flavio

  49. What about Happy Hacker by cansecofan22 · · Score: 2

    What about the happy hacker keyboard? I know it is not realy that different than a regular keyboard but it does have some differences. I think it should have been reviewed, it is an excellent alternative to a regular sized keyboard. It is also excellent for small rack mounted areas.

    --
    "If ignorance is bliss, why aren't there more happy people in the world?"
  50. Re:The Keyboard market is a good example... by evanbd · · Score: 2

    Why, with a non-standard keyboard, of course... and of course, U usually follows Q.

  51. typing speed by iso · · Score: 3

    all of these new-fangled keyboards always put a note about how users can "acheive 90% of their orginal typing speed," or something like it. i know that the idea behind these designs is to reduce strain on the hands and wrists, but when is somebody going to come out with a keyboard that can increase my typing speed?

    QWERTY is designed for fast typing (most words are back and forth, left right left right), but it's certainly not ideal. does anybody know of a keyboard could let me type faster. i already type at about 100wpm, but anything that could help me type even faster (perhaps by reducing the error rate at high speeds) would be great.

    i would be willing to hook electrodes up to my skull to achieve this too ;)

    - j

    1. Re:typing speed by Joe+Rumsey · · Score: 2

      Actually, the Datahand site claims you can increase your typing speed. I think I believe it, it looks like a very well thought out device. But for $1200 it ought to just type for you.

      In comparison, that bowl thing claims you can acheive a whopping 52% of your regular typing speed, and seems like a horrible design.

      The half keyboard (the one that claims 90%) isn't intended to replace a traditional keyboard, but rather to be used with handheld devices. It's small and easily portable, though I still think the Stowaway folding keyboard is a better idea. It's a full-sized keyboard that folds up to about the size of a Palm.

    2. Re:typing speed by Voline · · Score: 3

      Yeah, the US Navy did experiments in the '20s or '30s with the DVORAK keyboard. Once typists learned the new layout, they were faster than they were with the QWERTY keyboard.

      Actually the QWERTY was not laid out with speed in mind. In a manual typewriter (and I used one for the first 3 years of my college career), if two keys that are next to each other are pressed in very rapid succession they will stick together at the top of their arc and jam the typewriter. So, the guy who invented QWERTY moved the keys for the most common letters in the alphabet away from each other. Look at the position of the 'e' and the 'o' keys.

      Technology soon made this unnecessary, but by then the QWERTY had become standard. And then one runs into the I-use-the-one-that-everyone-uses-because-everyone- uses-it circular problem, In business schools QWERTY is used as the classic example of the first, not the best winning in market economies. Other popular examples are VHS over Beta are Windows over Macintosh (or Amiga).

      DVORAK uses the traditional physical keyboard, but the placement of the letters is different. So, you can find programs that will switch the keyboard that you are using to DVORAK. Macintoshes come with the option built-in.

  52. Re:The Keyboard market is a good example... by FFFish · · Score: 2

    Aha. The coffee problem. I know that one. Makes perfect sense, now. :-)

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    Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
  53. RTFA by jonnythan · · Score: 2

    None of this is about being faster or more productive. None of the manufactureres even claim that you will reach your full previous typing speed - the bowl lets you get to about 50%.

    These are all about reducing finger movement and strain. These were designed to help prevent RSI/carpal tunnel syndrome or offer relief to sufferes of it.

    All this is stated in the article. People, please read them. Moderators included. It should somehow be a requirement that a moderator reads the article before modding replies.

    1. Re:RTFA by linuxci · · Score: 2

      I know that, but the point I was getting at is productivity is important, ok reducing strain is too but it takes a while for people to get used to these new keyboards and then when they are used to them they are very unproductive using the old keyboards.

      It's going to take a while before these keyboards get widely accepted for that reason.

      A big push will have to be made with computer suppliers and businesses to support them as their standard keyboards with QWERTY as an option.

      But it'd need the support of almost every major keyboard manufacturer to take off.

  54. Overlooking the important stuff by Breace · · Score: 2

    One thing I noticed at the keybowl web-site was the lack of information about special keystrokes.

    They have a nice little program that converts text into the movements that should be made with their keylessboard, but it doesn't even handle capitalization. The 'traditional' approach of holding one key, while hitting an other is heavily used by many users, and how this exactly is handled is unclear.

    I think people use keyboards differently, and the a through z keys are only part of the equation.

    As a side note, I've never understood why M$ decided to re-layout the INS/DEL/HOME/END/PG-UP/DWN island from 3x2 to 2x3 on their second version of the natural keyboard. Are they insane? (oh right, never mind..) I use them all the time and its unbelievable how annoying such a small change can be. Fortunately they changed them back on the NK Pro.

    Breace.

  55. Half Keyboard for Linux by Matias · · Score: 2

    1. what about a linux driver for a regular keyboard and one handed typing?

    There are a lot of different operating systems out there now (several flavours of Windows, Linux, MacOS, BeOS, etc.). Rather than try to write drivers for all of them (or only the popular ones), we thought the path of least resistance was to go the hardware gadget route and thereby support all operating systems.

    We are starting with the PDA market and will be moving to the desktop with PC and USB HalfKeyboards.

    Edgar

  56. The half keyboard appliance by bbk · · Score: 2

    I'm intrigued with the Half Keyboard appliance.

    How does this integrate with the rest of a computer system? I've seen things in the past that are basically a keyboard+screen+memory so you can take notes on the go, and then use the device as a normal keyboard (PS/2 Port connected) on your home machine - hit a key combination and it dumps it's buffer across the keyboard interface. Is this what the appliance will be, or will it be closer to a PDA?

    What OS is used on the appliance? Expansion / peripheral port details? Expected price? Is it intended to be wearable (or will there be a wearable version) ?

    Also, do you intend to support other PDA's other than Palm OS devices with the Half Keyboard?

    Thanks,
    BBK

    1. Re:The half keyboard appliance by Matias · · Score: 2

      1. I'm intrigued with the Half Keyboard appliance.

        How does this integrate with the rest of a computer system? I've seen things in the past that are basically a keyboard+screen+memory so you can take notes on the go, and then use the device as a normal keyboard (PS/2 Port connected) on your home machine - hit a key combination and it dumps it's buffer across the keyboard interface.

      That was supposed to be our first product, but we didn't raise enough $$$ to do it, so went with the straight peripheral keyboard instead.

      However, there are a lot of advantages to the appliance design. A PocketPC device with HalfKeyboard+touch-screen would be much better for notetaking than the products out there now.

      1. Also, do you intend to support other PDA's other than Palm OS devices with the Half Keyboard?

      Yeah, we'll be doing an iPAQ version for sure. We already have a working driver. Just a matter of making the units with the appropriate cable attached.

      Edgar

  57. But I sucked at Robotron... by Sabalon · · Score: 2

    The two 8 position joysticks and me did not work. With the keybowl, I would be lucky to get to 5% much less 50% of my typing speed.

  58. Re:Internet inventor reads /. by Matias · · Score: 3

    1. I'm the inventor of the Internet. Feel free to post any questions...

    How does your wife feel about all the porn your creation has spawned?

    Also, is she a real blond?(if you know what I mean)

    Edgar

  59. What us hackers need... by mindriot · · Score: 2

    ...what us hackers really need is not a keyboard that allows fast typing of text in any spoken language. I can do alright with that on a standard qwerty (uh, qwertz where i come from) keyboard. But everyone who ever coded and used a powerful editor such as emacs needs a completely different key layout... especially in the german layout where the pipe symbol is <altgr>+"<", the @ is at <altgr>+"q", and the backslash at <altgr>+"ß", and <altgr> definitely being one of the keys that won't work with touch typing. And typing things like

    void main(int argc, char ** argv) {
    int c = some_func_here (argv[0]);
    printf ("Result: \n", c);
    }
    M-x M-s M-x M-c

    is what's really killing your fingers on a standard qwerty keyboard. The datahand idea is maybe not too bad. but I'd rather be able to move my hands around freely while having the "keyboards" strapped to my hands, and the whole thing working wireless of course - and optimized for coding. For the good ol' letter I'll stick with qwerty.

  60. Nah. by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 2

    I can't believe the world would be a happier place if people did what was superior, over what is standard.

    It would be nice, I guess, to always do what was superior; but that would just become and define what is standard!

    Now if people would only start to be happier, then the world would be a much happier place, IMHO ^^

    Geek dating!

    --

    GPL Deconstructed
  61. Re:The Keyboard market is a good example... by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 2

    The first article, despite being very lengthy, doesn't appear to acually say anything. It goes into great detail about how QUERTY is the evolutionary survivor of nineteenth century typewriters... which in the Dvorak argument is completely meaningless. The Dvorak myth is that QUERTY is superior for manual typewriters.

    I had to skim a few drawn out repeating paragraphs, but I couldn't find anything which actually stated why QUERTY was infact created, only that there was lots of evidence that Dvorak himself spread the rumour that his patented keyboard was better.

    The author also does a horrid job trying to shoot down the lock-in argument using the DOS/Windows analogy. CP/M is source compatible with DOS 1.0, and almost all DOS apps run under modern versions of Windows. The whole failure of OS/2 was centred around Windows compatability and the market forces associated with promoting the competition's platform.

    He does appear to enjoy shooting down lots of sources which people believe credible... moreso than he appeared to be interested in the merits and faults of the various keyboards. But he does have some interesting points.

    From what the article claims, I think your asessment is accurate: "Mostly an urban myth popularized by Dvorak." But he doesn't do squat to actually refute the argument, only to refute its historical accuracy.

  62. Keybowl Problem by cybermage · · Score: 2

    Let's see, 8 x 8 = 64. I guess it's possible to do everything with that number, but how do you capitalize a letter if it takes two hands just to type a letter. Do you shift by banging your head on something, or is that another movement of the hands (i.e. shift then letter.)

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    Some people have a way with words, and some people, um, thingy.