Slashdot Mirror
Gnome/KDE Tutorials For Windows Users?
Aciel asks: "I recently decided to switch from Windows to Linux. I'd been held back by many things before (such as that my copies of Thief II, Quake III Arena, and Wheel of Time only ran on the former), but I was really ready to do it this time. But once I got Red Hat all set up, running Gnome, et cetera, I realized that I had no idea how to install anything. I of course knew about sites like linuxnewbie.com (and .org), but neither of them were really oriented towards people like me. One was oriented more towards programmers; the other towards idiots. But where to find a tutorial on Gnome, KDE, or Linux and X in general oriented towards people like myself, people with significant but not infinite computer DOS-based know-how?" If Unix (Linux/*BSD/etc) is ever to successfully woo users from Windows, something like this is a must.
"Everyone's always talking about how easy Linux is to use, and how much better it is. But then why can't I find a simple tutorial explaining the basics to me from a perspective I and other Windows users can understand? I'd love to learn--especially since I'm unwilling to shell out another 100 bucks for a newer OS that's slower than the one I've got (read: Windows ME)"
Red Hat has plenty of quality documentation on their website. Newbie or linux veteran, there's lots of stuff for everyone.
http://www.redhat.com/apps/support/
Seriously, man, Linux needs newbies. It's the only way the number of Linux users will grow. I first learned Linux back in 1997 with a UMSDOS-based distro (because Slackware was an evil bitch and wouldn't install properly). While I had many years of experience with DOS and Windows and the like, I'd never really touched Unix before. And now? Now I'm coding in C and Perl, creating web sites from scratch with the gimp and vim, that sort of thing.
In every newbie there's the potential for development. Please don't forget that.
My wife has a Ph.D in New Media Technologies and I am her programmer. We experimented with an idea that has excellent promise for computer-based academic learning. We did a series of studies to validate the significantly improved effectiveness of recall, comprehension, and faster learning of the following method (and are developing our last one now): EXPANDING HYPERTEXT Imagine seeing your tutorial as a synopsis with, perhaps, only one sentece covering each major point. But each sentence is an "expanding hyperlink" that, when clicked, elaborates on the point. Under that elaboration, further hyperlinks may exist. After clicking on everything that interests you, the text is molding into one tutorial crafted specifically for YOUR informational needs and interests. This means your attention is not lost reading mountains of B.S. in order to get to the point and it greatly increases the richness of content that is useful to you at what ever your current state of understanding of the topic is. One major part of this technology is enabling the reader to adapt a text to his/her own needs. It employs a new kind of hyperlink--the expanding link, which inserts text into the current document rather than taking the reader to a separate page. The conventional hyperlink (we call it the "paged link") has a strong tendency to disorient readers. It's very effective for reference documentation but is significantly less effective for tutorials than is simply one long page of text (or one long series of pages, chronologically ordered (that we call "linear text")). I did my previous versions of the test applications using Visual Basic, but I am now trying to workout a Javascript implementation. --Matthew
One was oriented more towards programmers; the other towards idiots.
;-)
Well, what else is there?
1) buy a distribution. Suse Linux has an excellent users manual. Well laid out, I know many an NT user who found this one useful.
2) Read the docs. Again from a Suse perspective , they have an excellent knowledge base and website with tonnes of docs.
3) Stop expecting "doing x ni linux is like doing y in windows". I think you need to understand the underpinnings of Unix a bit more. Windows NT dulls the mind of an IT person. Seriously, flame me away, but you are so shielded from what the OS is doing that eventually you think the world is controlled through an applet.
4) O'Rielly publishes tones of books, they're a hell of an investment since you will use them regularly, I have been using Linux as my main OS and at work (programming fibre optics simulations) for 4 years and I still refer to them.
I think it's kind of silly to assume that we need a document that says if you do "this" in windows , you do "this" in Linux. There are docs, there are books, of excellent quality and free (on the net). Read them first. If you buy a distribution, you will always get a manual, which requires reading before installation.
I simply don't understand the griping, you move to a new OS , wether it's end user, programmer, IT , admin...you should be prepared to learn how that new OS works.
Everyone seems to just jump right in and complain about how hard it is to get help for Linux in general, but the article specifically asks about GNOME and KDE. I don't know how well Windows users are catered to, but there is the GNOME User's Guide, as well as one for the K Desktop Environment. I hope these help.
It's a good point... balancing between Windows Friendly (and limiting), and Linux powerful (and confusing). And I think we need both. Windows does extremely well on the friendly side, but like you say you're at the mercy of MS to decide what you can and can't do. And most of the time they decide to let you have 80% control, with that remaining 20% becoming a serious issue if you want to do something complicated. Linux allows you do to everything... but the easy, idiot friendly parts are lacking.
I think both can coexist, in the very nature of seperate distributions. Even on the same computer, you should have the option of installing idiot friendly parts (probably a bunch of nice front ends and helpful docs). There's a lot of work in this area, but it's still only half easy, and for other things you have to delve into the real linux stuff. I'd love a system that is as easy to use as windows, stable as linux, with the option to drop down to console and cfg files when I need to tweak something complicated. But for all of my daily tasks (setup and everyday use), I'd love for linux to be point-and-click obvious. Right now, I think it's safe to say that linux distro's are a little lopsided in favor of the tech side, and could use some work on being idiot friendly.
This excludes, of course, distros that try to avoid any bloat at all... idiot friendly is in it's nature more bloated than console-type stuff.
Just a thought from a simliar windows-experienced-trying-to-get-into-linux guy.
James
A WYSIWYG editor that will run from a terminal screen
What do you mean "terminal screen"? A WYSIWYG editor won't easily run in the VGA's text mode, as WYSIWYG editors require proportional fonts.
Sorry, guys, but vi and emacs both suck bigtime for former Windows users!
I agree with you on vi(le); try pico, joe, jed, etc. But Emacs isn't that hard. The seven commands you need to know for Emacs are
- open: Ctrl+x Ctrl+f
- save: Ctrl+x Ctrl+s
- quit: Ctrl+x Ctrl+c
- start selection: Ctrl+space
- cut: Ctrl+w
- copy: Alt+w
- paste: Ctrl+y
What's so hard about that?Tetris on drugs, NES music, and GNOME vs. KDE Bingo.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I cursed and cursed. I learned emacs. I unlearned all those windows keystrokes. (not really, its kool to switch my fingers to windows mode on a win box). I killed gnome and kde and installed a gui that used only a few megs (in code and execution) and was as foreign looking to Windoze as possible, Windowmaker
But as I learned to make major changes to my system without a gui or goddamn, *f-ing rebooting every 5 minutes I began to feel that godlike power agian that hooked me on computers back when I was 9. I began to love Linux. I feel natural with it and can really get around.
Funny, but just after that transition phase I took an engineering management role in a dot com and help in the setup of a several hundred K in unix hardware (smp sun boxes, linux, raid arrays, yada). I can tell you being able to live at the command line (and I mead live - getting help, light browsing, writing code (java and c++), working with multiple apps, email) was incredibly useful - I'd say mecessary
Though I've said alot, I don't know what to say. Sometimes I actually don't want every joe 6 pack to be running linux. The prideful part of me says, "learn the goddamn system and stop complaining. And if you can't, puleeze go back to windows. Grandma shouldn't be anywhere near a linux box anyway." The human part of me (oh, pride IS human, Doh) says, "*sniff*, try these:"
linuxhelp.net
linuxhelp.org
linuxselfhelp.com
linuxnewbie.org
How To's
by O'Reilly. This is what it looks like . I know posts for this book are becoming like Natalie Portman/Beowulf Cluster FUD but damnit I learned a lot of good fundamentals in there. It'll teach you everything you need to know about getting started and basic use. It's easy to read and more importantly, easy to follow along in its examples. I've only been using Linux for about 6 months and this book really helped a lot.
Read it, live it, love it. Running Linux.
"Me Ted"
BOSTON SUCKS!
I argue your number 3. We don't need to completely understand the foundation of Unix in order to install gaim on Suse or establish an internet connection.
My point is this: learning should be a part of the using process (as it is with windows..it's usable when you don't understand everything). Learning should NOT be a prerequisite to doing anything useful with the OS.
I believe it would be immensely helpful to have "doing x in Linux is like doing y in windows." Your elitism, saying "read them first" and so forth are exactly what have turned me off from Linux. Several times I have installed Linux on various computers and got it to work, but have been frustrated because I don't know how to do many simple things and documentation is either simple to the point where it's not helpful or complex to the point where I don't know what they're talking about. Many times I have gone to #linux on DALnet or something and asked a simple question, only to be told "Read the Fucking Howto's, it's in there" by several people. It's IMPOSSIBLE to get help there, and I have nowhere else to turn when the HOWTO's have failed me.
I'm not a stupid guy. I'm the resident hardware guy at my dorm, make $18 an hour teaching a guy A+ and how to do various advanced things in Windows, and I learn quickly. But I don't have large amounts of time time to devote to learning linux due to school, gf, etc. There is absolutely nothing out there to help a guy like me pick up how to do simple things in Linux quickly. That is what the Ask Slashdotter was trying to convey. Such a thing CAN exist, and such a thing WOULD help large numbers of people (slightly below the no-gf-having geek loser Linux elite and slightly above the novice programmer) learn and USE linux.
Everyone complains that Linux is the domain of 1337 h4x0r5 or whatever. It is not that hard, but it does take an investment of time people like myself cannot make. We are the next logical step for linux to take over. The help the poseter wants CAN and WILL make that happen.
We don't need to make Linux easier like everyone has always said. WE NEED TO FACILITATE LEARNING IT. Linux isn't inherently hard, but it is a leap moving from someone who is really good at windows to someone who can effectively use Linux.
Of course, none of this will be able to happen without a set of standards. Support the LSB!
Man, that is the exact thinking that will prevent Linux from becoming mainstream and its wrong to advocate it. Yes, newbies can be annoying but they are critical to this whole OS revolution. The sad trend I have seen in the IRC channels (and yes even the occaisional /. post) is that newbies are shunned or tortured by people like you. How many times can the 'Guru' crowd say to newbies "That's an easy fix just rm -rf this directory" which is tantamount to "deltree windows" before the snobbery kills off Linux? Instead, how about giving a newbie good advice or not hanging out in the channels where they will flock if their existense bothers you so much. Not all of us are as perfect and all knowing as you. Am I to assume you never had a linux question? Whatever you do please don't chastise the ignorant or uneducated as in the end you will regret it. In the real world you only have two choices: 1) watch and help the user base grow (supply good info and encourage the progress) or 2) watch and help the user base shrink(supply bad info and purposefully seal Linux's fate). To me it seems by your post you are advocating that the numbers slide along laterally which would eventually spell out the death of linux which is not what we all want. If no one is using it then no one will develop for it and no corporations will sink any money into it etc. We still have a very long way to go before the number of linux users hits the critical popularity mass you are afraid of.
Prospecting Stinks. Stop Wasting Time on Cold Calling.
ONLY THEN a typical user without that much computer skills can savely wipe any OS from his harddisk and start fresh with Linux, knowing he won't be facing questions he can't resolve without having to peek on a website he can't visit because his system doesn't contain any OS.
Which opens up the first goal: a program that first checks the system of the user if the distro he wants to install on that system is able to run the distro, and if all hardware is supported. This program should obviously run under win32 or typical other OS the user will leave behind. (Microsoft has this kind of program to test if your system is able to run windows2000 and which parts of your system need new drivers, where to get them etc).
I think this will only succeed if the people who now work on Linux (i.e. program on the kernel, window managers and other key system items) change their focus from the "all knowing geek who wants to control every freaking byte of his system" towards the more mainstream average kinda user, who needs/wants help along the way. This will be tough because the people who DO work on the kernel/key system items ARE mostly people who want to control every damn setting of their system, which is EXACTLY the reason why they don't use windows.
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Coming from the same background, I've found that O'Reilly's Running Linux has been a great help - I'm thinking of getting more of that series to help me learn more.
/. (on usage of linux for whatever reasons) might help. Even if you don't know exactly what's going on, you at least get exposure to the terms and methodologies.
I'm not sure if this is obvious or not, but if you have a good bit of free time, reading through posts on
What I want to see personally is something along the lines of:
What is the equivilent of add/remove programs?
What is the equivilent of autoexec.bat/startup folder?
Where is dialup networking?
Where is device manager/what the heck do I do with this linux driver on disk?
How do you do this 'webserver' thing that linux is supposed to be so good at?
I love going down to the elementary school, watching all the kids jump and shout, but they dont know I'm using blanks.
I had no knowledge of what to do about it, couldn't find any man page on point, and had no one to ask, so I wiped it off the box and started over.
Now I'm reading reading reading about security *before* I go online again. What I don't understand is: why doesn't anybody warn you in bold letters about shutting down telnet, etc.? Linux is too powerful for newbies unless someone helps us fast and early to know what to watch out for. It needs to be in the installation manual, not online, so you aren't root-owned while you're reading the documentation pages.
If no one will do that, if anyone would set up a site for a manual for newbies, I'd surely help write for it.
It's a Catch22 with Gnu/Linux...you can't get it up and running until you know something about it, and you can't really get to know something about it or even comprehend it until it *is* up and running. At least I can't. I specifically bought RedHat as a distro so I could get help from another human. But they only help you install and after that you are on your own. If you then call and ask how to shut off things, they won't help at all, because they "only help with installation"...It's astonishingly user-hostile, compared to the proprietary software world. I'm puzzled as to how they plan to make their business work out, unless they just don't care about individual users and are focused solely on businesses. Maybe it costs too much to help users and that's why they draw the line where they do.
Having griped until I feel better, I think it's important to say this: that the whole point of Gnu/Linux is to eventually know what you are doing. You can't just make it totally click and point and still have the real value of Gnu/Linux. I understand that and am willing to do my time to get the knowledge base I need. But what we really need is help at the beginning to get started and set up, safely. And newbies need to be able to ask questions, specific questions, from someone who knows, because the documentation is never exactly your distro or your situation. Plus there will never be a manual that explains everything to everyone well, with no need for questions. Proprietary software folks know that and set up for it. I mention this because of all the comments about how annoying newbie questions are. Questions are how you learn.
So why not set up a site where newbie questions can be asked and answered? Not just with FAQs, but with a way to email a question. Dell has a great system for that. You do get a FAQ as your first answer, and usually that's enough because they are so thorough (as in "check to make sure your computer is plugged in") and well-written, but if you still need help, you can write back and get it. That way we newbies won't ruin things by asking stupid questions anywhere else. And if we stray off the reservation and ask a question in the wrong venue, you can just point us to that site. It's clear from all the comments that no such site currently exists. Again, speaking for myself, I absolutely volunteer to help anyone who sets up such a site. Just post where to go and I'll be there, seriously committed.
Why? Because I have lived it and know how great the need is for this. And because though I never intended to study computer science, and shouldn't have to go too far down that road before I can use an OS, I understand that open/free is valuable and would gladly contribute what I can.
I also understand that there is a chasm between newbies and programmers and we speak and think in different ways, so what helps *you* with no trouble is hard for me. On the other hand, you probably don't know much about the law, and I work in that field. I can usually read a judge's ruling and know what it means, while you might be puzzled, because you don't know the lingo and lack experience in the field and so would need to ask someone what it all means. Even smart people need to ask for explanations in a field that isn't their own. You could see that clearly when the media was thrashing about with court rulings in the recent US election. Just clueless and misleading coverage as a result. If the person you asked for an explanation answered: "Just read the law", would that help? I say no, because you lack the knowledge to understand what the law means and how it works out in real life. It's no different with computer knowledge. We do need help understanding what it all means and how it works out in real life because we lack the background and experience to get it on our own. Most of us also lack the time and the interest to actually learn how to program. Should that be required to use Gnu/Linux? If not, then where is that helping hand for us Windows refugees?
So, how about it? Anyone?