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Racism At Microsoft?
chandas sent in linkage to a story running at ZD Net about
rascism at Microsoft. Apparently seven former and current black employees want $5 billion, saying that Microsoft fosters a hostile work environment. Is racism an issue in the tech industry? I've been reading Chuck D's autobiography (He is smart as hell) and he talks a lot about racism in the sports and music industries so this subject has been on my mind a lot lately, but it never even crossed my mind that it might be an issue in the tech industry. Of course, as a pasty white boy I probably wouldn't even notice even though I've always thought of the internet as colorblind.
Excuse me folks, but isn't every worker, black and white, working in the IT field ... like, welcome to the real world!
(and especially larger companies like, oh, say, Microsoft) treated like a slave? 60+ hour work weeks, oppressive management structure, morons getting promoted
over vastly more skilled and competent co-workers
Look here for some more info:N ews/.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/Business/Microsoft_
To answer the question, in the tech industry, it's approx. 6.3%. So yes, it's a little lower.
How many are Indian? How many are Asian? How many are White?
I find that quite a few of their complaints aren't discrimination based on color...they're things that Microsoft does to ALL of their low-level employees. We don't call them Microserfs for nothing, you know...
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Nobody here feels like a slave. None of the MSFT people I've talked to feels like a slave - especially not those who have made millions there.
If you are forced to work a 60 hour week, you should go seek employment elsewhere. If you are oppressed by your manager, passed over for promotion, etc, move on. If you aren't happy, take your skills elsewhere. There are lots and lots of places that need competent people, will treat them right, and pay them well.
-- Jeff Paulsen
If you think about it, its like saying that Microsoft have made $5 billion out of these people, and that these people have lost $5 billion because of Microsoft. Maybe these are exceptionally talented individuals, but surely they should only ask for how much they have actually lost?
I'm not black, but I am a female, which in the tech industry may as well be the same. I've definitely experienced sexism on all levels. One thing I have noticed: If there is 1 {insert group here} person, you judge that person on their abilities. If there a half dozen, and they tend to socialize with each other, they are treated based on the stereotype.
I do not doubt for a second that you have been discriminated against, however the best way to fight discrimination is to not let people think of you as a race/gender/religion but as an individual. Distinguish yourself. Most of my friends are white or indian guys. They talk about "stupid females who got into CS at CMU based on gender," but they don't lump me into that group. Period.
At the risk of sounding racist, I have noticed something about black people in particular, more than indians, chinese, or females, they tend to associate exclusively with members of their race. They are asking to be treated "the same." People who form cliques are not liked by those outside the clique. Think back to high school. Did you like the "popular" people? Did you think all "popular" people were dumb?
It's hard being a female (and I'm sure as bad if not worse being black) in the tech industry, but filing class action lawsuits which lump you back into the same group will do nothing to help.
-Alison
To be fair to Microsoft, I don't think this is necessarily indicative of a racist policy at Microsoft. MS may well hire qualified applicants irrespective of race. What it does indicate is a societal problem. I don't know enough black people to have a particularly detailed picture of the challenges they face, but I know enough women to know that from grade school onwards, women are discouraged in various ways from pursuing technical and management careers. I'd be willing to bet blacks face similar pressures.
I was one of a handful of white kids bussed to a predominantly black public school as part of desegregation in Tennessee in the early 80's, and I can say that the mostly black schools I saw were in utter disrepair, short on textbooks, and staffed with teachers who did not compare well to their counterparts in mostly white schools. (In both cases, most of the teachers were white.) Schools in TN are some of the worst in the nation -- I went to what was regarded as the best high school in the area and didn't have to write a single essay in four years -- but the predominately black schools were even worse. We can talk all we want about the role of individual initiative, but not having the opportunity to learn will screw you good.
--
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Sorry, M$ may be evil but come on.
I remember one time Jesse Jackson headed to silicon valley to complain about a shortage of blacks being hired.
The resounding response: "Bring 'em in! We are facing a shortage of computer experts and we will hire anybody who is competent!"
Vidi, Vici, Veni
shit like this bugs me, but whatever.....
I worked for MSFT for 4 years and damn - i'd do it again in a second. I've never worked for a compnay that treated it's employees as well. You're going to stay late? Let us order dinner for you..... anything you want to drink. Shuttle buses. Great stock options If you worked your ass off and did good work, expect to get nice fat bonuses (twice annually) and promotions. Nobody I ever met gave a rats ass if you were white, black, purple, straight, gay, male, female, etc. Your work is what mattered - period.
All that aside - racism? Have you seen the racial makeup of any tech company in the US? 'Whites' (whatever that means) are generally in the minority.... in my current company a SUBSTANTIAL minority. People get promoted according to ability, talent, social skills (YES - to manage other people you can't just be a code genius, you have to be able to work with people as well). Just because you are 'qualified' for a promotion doesn't mean you are the MOST qualified. Sorry - that's life.
Don't get me wrong - i'm not about to say that there couldn't possibly be individuals whos actions may be suspect. But they would be just that - individuals. A coroporate racist policy? Give me a friggin break. People forget that MSFT in Redmond is what - 18000 employees? It's a small city! And you'll get the same kind of cross secion of people there that you get anywhere....
And FIVE BILLION? Well, that just speaks for itself...
j
--
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This is true for me too. I'm white. Why do you assume that since all of this happens, that it's racially motivated? This stuff just happens, and it seems to me that office politics is the single most non-discriminatory thing there is.
Again, why do you assume that this is true only for black men on the jobsite? You seem to assume that black people only get on the job through hard work and that everyone else was handed it on a silver platter.
Ok. So your high school didn't challenge you. Which left you with lots of time to do things, like challenge yourself. And it would appear from your own words, that you got something very rewarding from being challenged. My high school challenged me incredibly, but it left me almost no time to do anything else. It would seem to me that we did about the same amount of work. Why assume that you're the only one that worked your A$$ off?
Key to financial independence: Spend less than you earn. Save and invest the difference. Do it for a long time.
In my experience it's always amused me at the reaction I get when I come in for an interview. On the phone, it would be near impossible for someone to realize that I'm black - I have a classic "white" voice. They read my resume and probably talk to me on the phone, but you can see a look of surprise in many an interviewer's eyes when his next applicant is a 6 foot tall black guy.
--
OliverWillis.Com
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An Operative with an Agenda
It is clearly not the case that all whites naturally assume they are better employees than blacks, just like it is clearly not the case that all whites have access to good education (have you ever been to the south ?), just like it is _clearly_ not the case that all members of your "Racial group" even give a shit about the educational progress or financial stratification of their race.
There is obviously racism in our field, because our field is made of PEOPLE, some of whom happen to be racist, or even have subconscious prejudicial tendancies.
The problem with this lawsuit is that it states that microsoft as a _company_ has a corporate policy of discrimination against blacks. This lawsuit isn't saying "there are some bad apples at MS" or "all the people we had to deal with were racist" - it says that "microsoft as a company is run by a secret good old boy network of black-hating people that turn otherwise unbiased managers into agents of the white devil".
How likely do you think that is ?
As someone who has been through Microsoft interviewer training, at what point in the MS hiring process do i get told about the secret "discriminate against blacks" rule ? It sure wasn't in my training packet. It wasn't anywhere listed in the whole section of stuff about actively but tastefully avoiding any questions or issues regarding ethnicity/religion/gender/preference/whatever. As interviewers there are whole lists of things we're not allowed to talk about and anything that could even be used to inferr financial history or caste or racial background or whatever is strictly taboo.
I've worked at a number of tech firms - there is more racial diversity at MS than anywhere else i've worked, both in general and in management.
Although I don't beleive in the government mandating AA programs and quotas, given a hiring choice where all things were equal, if one candidate clearly had an advantage growing up because of racial and financial history, and the other probably had to work _really_ hard against lots of financial and social obsticales, i'd want to try and hire the less priviledged of the two - the one that had to work harder to cover the same distance. But I like to root for the underdog. Unfortuneately, thanks to all the AA and PC stuff thats been forced on institutions, my understanding is that i am not allowed to take into consideration such issues when making those decisions.
Shame really - the very basis to judge who's had the harder climb, a method to really show minorities and those who are disenfranchised with "playing by the rules" that they _can_ win - pulled right out of the whole hiring process.
And for what its worth, I salute you for sticking with it to get to where you are now - I got glimpses of how the black kids at my HS who were really working hard to make the most of their education were treated by others - sometimes whites - but more often than not, the blacks from their very own neighborhoods that seemed to have given up on the system. It was disheartening all around, to say the least.
It's hard to say wether AA type programs or even optional preference given to minorities will do anything to help rekindle the spirit of the kids that see a tunnel with no light at the end. Part of me thinks that people see through AA and minority preference as a cop out, enforcing the idea that minorities _cant_ get ahead without help.
Whats the right answer ? The government says im not allowed to have a preference one way or the other. What do you say ? What should the hiring practice in the tech industry be ?
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I worked at Microsoft as a developer for over 10 years in the Office group. I participated in the hiring process and was a manager. We were constantly looking to hire, train and retain the best possible people for the job, regardless of race, gender, personality or anything else not directly related to getting the job done.
Very early in my tenure, the hiring criteria was explained to me thus: "it doesn't matter if the candidate goes and pees in the corner of your office in the middle of the interview, if the candidate is a brilliant programmer, we hire him or her". The foolishness of racism or gender bias was even clearer by implication and made explicit through HR training.
Apart from the obvious moral and legal issues, racism is stupid and self-destructive. Success means a lot at Microsoft and discrimination reduces your competitiveness. In my experience, stupid people don't last long at Microsoft.
Obviously Microsoft is a huge company which I left several years ago, and I don't know the specific people involved, but I doubt the corporate culture has changed that much since I was there.
Disclaimer: I'm a white guy.
I'm usually surprised to see black guys programming. Why?
At the college I went to (an engineering school) the majority of black men and women attended the liberal arts/Afro-American studies major.
A friend of mine, Tavia, was in the same engineering program as I was. A black woman engineer. She tended to stand out in class :) But, she was an incredibly talented and intelligent person. She got great grades. I often asked her for help, and we worked together on several lab projects. She became friends with a number of the engineering students and we ate lunch together, and just hung out a lot.
The black men and women at our campus tended to eat lunch in their own little cluster in the corner. They took a pretty dim view of Tavia eating lunch with us. They'd come right up to her and say things like "Forget what color you are?" They'd tear decorations off her dorm room door. They physically and verbally harassed her. How can black people who want to advance deal with this kind of pressure? I sure wouldn't know how.
I feel that the black community is just as responsible as the white community for the current conditions.
"We apologize for the inconvenience."
...I got nice and angry at some of the comments posted on this article. It's funny to me that people I consider my peers (meaning geeks) always tend to assume there is no racism in our field, because they honestly think that they're too smart to be racist.
First, let me be frank: I don't agree with suing for $5billion. Nor do I agree with using the small percentage of MSFT minority workers as leverage. What I DO agree with is the basis behind their argument, which is the EXACT same attitude being reinforced on this board.
Everywhere I've worked (UNIX Systems Admin/Engineering) I've been seen as a remarkably compentent, skilled worker....until I meet the customer face-to-face. Then, suddenly, my decisions are questioned more, people go over my head to ask about things that are my responsibility. Even back to college (University of Michigan), I was faced every day with fellow students who were SO SURE that they were smarter than me, and professors who didn't think that I deserved to be here, assuming that I was only here because of Affirmative Action (I've got that in the workplace as well).
It seems the general consensus among white, male tech workers is that they belong in the industry. If they are up for a promotion against an equally skilled minority, of COURSE they should get the promotion, because they're automatically more skilled. Because the majority of tech managers are ALSO white, this attitude is perpetuated.
Let's set the record straight: My racial group does not choose to be less educated...we simply don't always have access to the same resources growing up as whites. That can't possibly be understood by someone who's never attended public school in a major city (I'm from Detroit). I took freshman EECS with 3 hundred white guys that had been taking C classes since the 9th grade, and the only exposure I'd had to any form of high-level programming was self-taught. Poor K-12 education == Poor SAT/ACT != quality higher education. This uneven playing field is the reason for the small numbers of us in the tech industry.
I'm sick of typing at this point, and I've got Apache modules to code. To sum up, stop with the "Blacks are always complaining...why don't they just get jobs...they have as much access to higher education as we do" crap. Find a black man on your job site, and ask him where he's from, and what high school he attended. I guarantee he's either got parents as priviliged as most of yours, or he worked his ASS off to get to where he is now.
--Just Another Pimp A$$ Perl Hacker
El riesgo vive siempre!
I recently moved from Seattle to Washington D.C. and the difference in racial makeup as a whole takes a while to get used to (see below). Whatever the statitistics on programmers' racial makeup might be, the additional statistic that might come into play is the local population as a whole.
Actaully, I just ran to the Census web site and got the following numbers;
Population of Washington State (esitmate): 5756361
Black Population of the state (esitmate): 203853
Percentage: 3.5%
It seems that blacks at Microsoft are slightly "under-represented", but there are so many other variables (education, age, etc., etc.)...
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As I heard it, it stems from perception of treatment, but as lawyers will do, they play some mean cards when they decide to go for big huge giant money like that. Tossing workforce makeup percentages around, drawing attention to the way one person is treated, overlooking that the same treatment is dished out to everyone, etc.
Reality is, few blacks are in the high tech industry. Period. Has nothing to do with heritage, skin color, religion, etc., but to do with few persuing the skills to the point they would be actively recruited. Perhaps this can be the product of layers of demographics, but you can't blame a company for not hiring enough programmers if most of the applicants decided to study greek literature. It's absurd. And all this bending-over-backward which companies have done to avoid looking racist won't really pay dividends for years.
Down the coast, where Mr. Jesse Jackson raised a big stink, in Silicon Valley, you will find ethnic diversity is the rule. Not because of some quota system, or trying to appease alleged social movement leaders, but because the people brought their skills in and carved out their space. Sadly for some of these complainers, it's not the ethnic diversity they want to see.
I have some serious reservations about the legitimacy of a complaint when I see a party going for enough money to buy the Dakotas.
Maybe they'd have a case if Microsoft forced them to smoke cigarettes...
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It does not matter how many Billions Bill Gates has given to minority charites, he does not make every promotion, MS is composed of over 39,000 employess. Racism is caused by some of these employees prejudices (nothing to do with Gates) acting on them.
If someone has been brought up to think that Black people like me are less intelligent then he is just because of the color of my skin, then the next time I am up for promotion with a White counterpart, even if I might be more qualified than he is, in my superiors eyes, Black people are just not intelligent enough to hold that position, and I will be denied the position. Now, this is Racism. How do I know??? I have experienced it in the Tech field.
All those who are saying that Racism does not exist in the tech field are saying so because they have not experinced it....and would't.
The same goes for stereotypes such as Black people being thought of as being lazy, violent and as one poster put it, the most criminals. Did you ever stop to think how someone felt when he walked into an office for the 1st day at works and was already being treated as if he were lazy or just came out of jail?? Always a suspect when something went missing? answering rediculous questions like "have you ever been to jail?"
Most times it is so subtle that I don't think that most white people realise what they are doing or what effect it has.. but then again thats just me being an optimst. Yes, racism exists.
oh, and the $5B is for the hundreds of former and currnet MS employees, not just 7of them.
I have no real opinion about whether $5 billion is too high or not.
However if we are going to discuss it, we have to at least get the facts straight. First of all, the 7 people are trying to make this a class action suit--which spreads the money out some.
Second, at most importantly, the plaintiffs aren't saying that they personally lost $5 billion due to racism at Microsoft. They want that as *punitive* (means "punishing") damages. If all MS was required to do was give each black person $100k (for lost salary, etc) they wouldn't even notice. The idea is to inflict some pain on the corporation to force them to change.
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First of all, Indians and Asians, though they may still be minorities, do not have the stigmas or problems that blacks and Hispanics do in this country, so pointing at them and saying "see, there's no racism here" is hardly relevant. The fact that these two groups (blacks and Hispanics) are underrepresented in higher income occupations is very serious, and it does not better the situation by shouting out allegations of "reverse discrimination" before their case has even been heard in a court of law. Is the fear that their complaints may actually be justified so overwhelming that it has to be covered up by the web of denial? Please, that is for the justice system to determine. And just remember that every jurer on every court faces that denial as well, which makes their struggles all the more challenging.
Microsoft aside, we face an even bigger problem that 1) blacks and Hispanics live in poorer neighborhoods, 2) blacks and Hispanics are more likely to have undereducated parents, 3) blacks and Hispanics are more likely to go to public versus private schools, 4) living in poorer neighborhoods directly implies substandard educational facilities, 5) computer science is more likely to be taught in college preporatory classes, which are more likely to exclude blacks and Hispanics due to the substandard elementary school facilities, 6) blacks and Hispanics are less likely to make it to college in the first place, 7) get real--show me a list of computer jobs where "bachelors degree" is not a requirement.
And even if one or two are lucky enough to make it through all of those obstacles, they face an even bigger challenge in getting noticed for jobs, promotions, benefits, etc., consciously or unconsciously.
Their case is worth hearing out, we owe them that much. 40 acres and a mule? I'd rather have 40,000 stock options...
Becuase for a variety of societal reasons, there aren't as many blacks in the computer industry as there are whites, or Asians.
You can say the same thing for women, there aren't as many women in the computer industry as men, percentage wise.
I think to find their suit substantial, they need something stronger than percentages.
Why, here 5 employees are suing for $5 Billion - Isn't this completely over the top? $50,000 each would be more like it. Doesn't it mean that big companies are in total fear of the very slightest slip up, and are unlikely to take risks and innovate when it could mean that they are likely to lose Billions if it even goes slightly wrong.
Also, I really really find it hard to believe that a company in this day and age would be racist. They are driven by money, and finding the best employee for the job is the absolute bottom line in any company these days.
It'll be very interesting to see more details of this case and see just what happens! ;)
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