Linux PPC Boots On The Powerbook G4 Titanium

Therlin writes: "As this article explains, LinuxPPC 2000 Q4 succesfully boots on Apple's new PB G4. The Linux Kernel, X Windows and the LinuxPPC work. They also indicate that the internal modem and ethernet will probably work, but it hasn't been tested yet." It's really sad to see such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.

Comments

Re:Linux?

[Pope]

OS X isn't out yet, mainly. The new features demo'd by Steve at MacWorld were put in there during the Beta test phase. OS X is still being finalized and IMHO the Public Beta is still a bit crusty to go over to it full time.
However, I'm counting down the days to March 24 when the OS X final 1.0 is released. By then, all the debug code will be removed and the graphics accelertion will be finalized (there's NONE in the PB)

So, if you want a *NIX for your PowerBook, LinuxPPC is the one to get.

Pope

Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!

Re:Back up the train

[imac.usr]

Ah, but I was referring to the logic board, not the case. With the exception of the G4, it's basically the same overall design (i.e. not one of the UMA-2 based boards, which will probably be on the next upgrade in 9-12 months). It has been reformed to fit in the new slimmer case, but the underlying motherboard technology is very similar, if not identical.

My Pismo also supports one gigabyte of RAM, although Apple never sold it with such a configuration. The UMA-2 machines are supposed to all be PC133, so I'm sure eventually the PowerBook will support it. Hopefully by then it will be cheaper and battery technology will have advanced to make up for the extra power consumption of the faster bus.

And, the graphics chipset is actually the same as my model, a Rage 128 Mobility with the same 8 MB of VRAM. That's my biggest disappointment. I was hoping the Radeon Mobility chipset would be available, or that they'd at least bump up the VRAM to 16 MB. Dell sticks up to 32 MB in their Inspirons, but Apple still leaves only 8 MB in their PowerBook, iBook, and iMac, and 16 MB (by default; the 32 MB Radeon is an option) in the Cube and bottom-level G4 desktop. Boo!

I like the TiBook, but I'm waiting until the next revision to unload my Pismo for one.


--

I'm actually liking having one button.

[Pathwalker]

When I first thought about getting my iBook, I was concerned with having only one mouse button. After a very short time I actually started to like it!

My normal hand positions when using the trackpad are roughly this.

I keep the fingers of my left hand on function, control, option, and apple; and use my right hand on the trackpad. I just use the thumb of my right hand to hit that one big button.

I really appreciate not having to make all those little side to side finger motions in order to hit a different mouse button. I just hold down the function key I want (without any side to side movement of my left hand) and whack that big button with my thumb (no additional side to side movement of the right needed, as I can reach that big button from any position on the pad).

Now that I'm used to it, it's great :-)
--

Re:About the mouse...

[Jeff Mahoney]

Mostly because for the desktop systems, there's no hacking needed.

I have a dual G4 tower that I only run Linux on (I develop on it.) I found that the one button mouse made it pretty difficult to work with. XFree86 supports "faking" multibutton mice, using the control/shift/option keys - but what happens if you need a combination that is already occupied by the "workaround?"

So, I just went out and bought myself two logitech optical USB mice (one for my development pc). There was no additional configuration required, it was just seen as having more buttons than a normal apple mouse.

Now, for laptops - that's a different story. I'm not familar with the internals of a powerbook, but I'd imagine that the trackpad is hardwired. I've seen USB trackballs that "clip" onto the side of the laptop so no desktop surface is needed. For the most part, I'd think that hacking a multi button trackpad into a laptop would be more trouble than it's worth -- besides, given the modular nature of desktops, it's easier to replace a $200 motherboard or a $50 mouse if you mess it up -- but I would want to replace a $3500 laptop whose warranty I just certainly voided.

Just my two cents.

-Jeff

Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium

[nathanm]

twice as strong as titanium

First of all, what do you mean by strong? Compressive strength, elastic strength, hardness, or something else entirely? Metals are used in many different ways. Each metal has unique qualities that determine what it'll get used for. An alloy that makes good golf clubs probably isn't ideal for computer casing.

Second, the article you linked doesn't even compare "liquidmetal's" strength to titanium. It says it's "very strong and very hard," but not any more than another metal.

What it does say:

• the liquidmetal alloy transfers more energy when striking a ball than either titanium or steel.
  
• Lighter than stainless steel but heavier than titanium, Liquidmetal Golf officials assert the alloy has a lower vibrational response than the other two traditional materials. That should translate to superior feel and less shock at impact.
  
• Liquidmetal is non-crystalline, and thus bears no weak and inconsistent spots.
  
• a proprietary alloy
  
• exclusive licensing agreement with Cal Tech
  

Since it's heavier than titanium, you probably wouldn't want to use it in a notebook computer, where every ounce counts.

The fact that it's non-crystalline just means that a sample of liquidmetal is uniform, so it won't have a weak spot that fails before the rest of the sample.

It's unfortunate that universities now enter exclusive contracts, instead of publishing their findings to benefit everyone.

Finally, the golf clubs are over $400 each! If liquidmetal was so great, why aren't all golf clubs made of it now?

Linux: It's really sad...

[tbo]

...to see such a sweet OS crippled by lack of proper GUI design.

This is obviously a troll. So is this:

Its really sad to see such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.

When the Slashdot editors insist on trolling on the front page, why do we expect to see rational commentary in the comments area? The recent Hooters link and other total crap posted on /. has shown just how far downhill we've come. The sad thing is that it's the editors that are dragging Slashdot down.

Re:Linux: It's really sad...

[kijiki]

actually, on my powerbook, I map the "spare" enter key (just to the right of the space bar) to the right mouse button. When using the mouse, I place my thumb on the mouse button, my pointer finger on the trackpad, and my ring finger on the enter key. I find this arrangement even better than a standard two button trackpad, since I don't have to move any fingers to hit either button.

The only bummer is that I had to map F12 as the middle click, since the extra ALT button next to the spare enter key generates the same keycode (at the OF level) as the main ALT key. Fortunately pasting is not so common that its a huge problem, but it makes using xfig a PITA.

Anyone know of a way to hack OF to make it generate different keycodes for the left and right ALT buttons? I know the ADB emulation happens there, so I'd bet its possible.

Re:Linux: It's really sad...

[Bastian]

..to see such a sweet OS crippled by lack of proper GUI design.

Eh, unlike the point about mouse buttons, which is a troll, the one about linux's GUI is more or less true.

In truth, the interface part of the GUI is great. I live for using Gnome - I love the way I can put so much customization into the way I can have the stuff laid out on my screen. The only thing it compares to in my mind is some plugins for MacOS. And KDE ain't so bad, either.

But the krap that's running under it just pisses me off. OK, one thing I love X for is XDM. I can feel right at home even in a computer lab across campus. And I understand the need for a certain level of abstraction that creates issues when I'm working remotely like that. But why the hell do I have to deal with it when I'm sitting right in front of the damn box? Why can't stuff that is standard on other GUI's be standard on X too, rather than added features that are a pain to patch into the whole system?

and I'm not going to even start on getting an X server set up. . .

Re:Linux: It's really sad...

[Fervent]

I spoke with Rob once about perhaps turning down some of the opinions on the front page (bad opinions often lead to bad commentary and conversations), but he said to me "You can't be unbiased in this world. If you want unbiased, go to a fucking news site".

So there you have your reason. Whether or not you agree with it (I don't) is up to you.

-
-Be a man. Insult me without using an AC.

Re:Linux: It's really sad...

[tbo]

If Rob had actually spent any time using LinuxPPC, he would know that you have many options, such as these:

a) Get a 3-button USB mouse. It's fully supported.

b) Map control-click and command-click to buttons 2 and 3.

c) Use the CLUI, like a real man :-)

Re:Linux: It's really sad...

[waldeaux]

As if fscking news sites were EVER "unbiased"...

Re:About the mouse...

[Jeff Mahoney]

Gah. I wouldn't want to replace a $3500 laptop. :)

Mozilla didn't render the preview pane right. :(

-Jeff

Re:Apple will die

[narratorDan]

I was going to mod this up as "Insightful" or "Interesting" but I really wanted to post on this topic. So I will have to leave the modding to someone else.

You have many valid points and bitches. All of them infact, but some of them are a bit colored. I am a Mac user, but I'm not one of the blind Mac cultists who worship that ego monster Jobs.

I will admit that I was spellbound when Jobs came back as the leader of Apple while it was in its dying spasms, but that soon wore off when I saw that Jobs wasn't dragging Apple kicking and screaming past the cutting edge of technology. All he was doing was playing catch-up and putting it in a nice candy coating for all the candy ravers and people who wanted a computer that went with their choice of carpet and chairs.

Part of Apple's problems are from who they get their CPU's from, Motorola. Motorola needs to get the damn dust out of their clean rooms and start beefing up the Mhz of their chips, the PPC is a great little chip. The only drawback is the problems they are having with making them, IBM has made them faster. What did Motorola do? Got all pissy that IBM wasn't doing the dance their way, and threatened to take away their rights to make the chips. What Motorola should have done was copy IBM's fab system and get on with it.

Another part of Apple's problem is that the OS is half software and half hardware. In the beginning this was great, they could put the whole GUI on a 400k floppy and still have space for a program or two on the same disk. The programers knew it was there, they knew it wasn't going to change over night. The major drawback was that the programmers and hardware makers had to use it, they couldn't just whip up a driver or program for it they had to tie into the ROMs to get stuff to work. Even Apple had to make clever hacks to get their stuff to work with all their machines. The Mac is a hacker's nightmare/dream.

This is where OS X is suposed to come in. OS X is suposed to be completely free of the ROMs, but untill Apple can get it working on the hardware without the need for the ROMs OS 9 will still be around. When they finally do it, the Mac that only runs OS X (XI, XII etc) will forever be unlike the Mac that we all grew to love/hate/ignore.

For all the complaints of how much of a closed system it is and how hard it is to make into what you want it to do, I have seen so many clever hacks from hardware makers and even garage hardware hackers. I've seen so many people who spend hours hacking the latest cuecat or firbie or [insert closed hacker proof product] and yet most bitch about the Mac being a closed system and don't do any hacking on it. Sure it's expencive to replace if you screw up, but that should just make you more carefull about what you are doing. Any hardware hacker worth his salt should have atleast one cobbled together Mac that's not running the Mac OS, be it BeOS, Linux, or something of their own creation.

The PC isn't a Ford, its a freeking GM! The Mac isn't a Bently or any other luxury car. The Mac is a deisel Subaru that has a big wad of black epoxy poured into the engine compartment so that you can't get to it easily.

I have woken up, I don't like candy. Jobs has woken up also, he's just dragging his feet about it. From what I can tell, he knows that OS X is the last chance for Apple. He just doesn't want to let go of the whole kindom just yet. And that is his ego roaring.

I'm not blind, but I do have my fingers crossed.

G4 'book

[ExTycho]

Supposedly the prototypes had 2 buttons.. which is what i'd have really liked to have seen! (Mebbe after OSX is released they'll give it an extra one)

Re:G4 'book

[treke]

Thats easy to do on a desktop, but not on a laptop. Then it becomes more space for something that is meant to be portable
treke

Re:G4 'book

[bnenning]

The thinking is that users are likely to have difficulty with multiple buttons. I know this sounds silly to everyone here, but think in terms of the inexperienced user who is doing well to run a web browser and email client. It makes tech support much easier when you can say "click there" without worrying about them using the wrong button.

However, Mac OS X does have built-in support for multi-button mice, for example, the right button brings up contextual menus. This is the best approach in my opinion; there is nothing that cannot be done with a one-button mouse, but multi-button mice are fully supported for more experienced users.

TrackPad

[Pope]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I find pointing devices other than a mouse really awkward to use. As much as I'm drooling over the PB G4, the first accessory I'd get for it is a USB mouse.

PS. www.goldenshower.gs :)

Pope

Freedom is Slavery! Ignorance is Strength! Monopolies offer Choice!

Re:TrackPad

[nomadic]

Mice, to me, still seem like a kludgy and hacky implementation of a pointing device. But I guess I can't bitch too much since they do their job and I haven't invented anything better.

I've never done this myself, but the only thing I've seen that might compare to/surpass a mouse is a tablet/pen combination. Might even be more intuitive for an inexperienced user, since they've been (presumably) using pens already...
--

Re:TrackPad

[b1t r0t]

I'm a big fan of the Kensington Orbit. I found an ADB one at a thrift store for six bucks a couple of years ago and fell in love with it right away. Last month I got a USB/PS2 version when I got my new G3 500 Powerbook.

Not only does it feel right, it's symmetrical, so you don't have to worry about which hand to use.

Re:TrackPad

[Eil]

A few days ago, I just went out and bought myself a Logitech optical mouse. Pretty much identical in funcionality to the M$ IntelliMouse it replaced, except optical To be brief, I love it and can't believe I shunned optical mice for so long.

But you really enlightened me on the surface issue. I've only had this thing for a few days (likely will buy another for a laptop) so I haven't done much experimenting on it. Therefore, the idea of using the mouse on a non-flat or soft surface seemed like crap... until about a minute ago, I tried using my optical mouse *on my lap* and it worked great! Thanks for the tip! Now I'm *definitely buying another for my laptop.

Re:TrackPad

[Eil]

A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I wanted a Logitech Trackman marble. It just looked damn cool and seemed like it would be much funner than a mouse to use. But luckily I tried one before I bought one, and was sadly disappointed at how awkward it was in comparison to a mouse. Well, that and I was just getting good at Quake at the time...

Mice, to me, still seem like a kludgy and hacky implementation of a pointing device. But I guess I can't bitch too much since they do their job and I haven't invented anything better.

A word on trackpads and buttons

[stux]

I would guess most of you haven't really used a trackpad, or a single button trackpad,

the honest truth is the trackpad is the best portable pointing device.

Tracballs work... trackpads are better.

nipples, they suck. Its the equivalent of using a finger joystick to steer your mouse.

I don't use a joystick to control my mouse on my desktop, why the hell would I do it on my laptop!

When I want to click some widget, I just think widget and before I know its clicked (mousing is autonomous to me ;))

but with a nipple its like a mini racing game to steer the cursor, slow down, adjust and swirl around a few times...

Its just stupid.

Now.. about mousebuttons...

on a desktop, you just get a usb mouse you like... I actually had a triple button wonder until recently... I traded it in for the gelcap mouse :)

Love it... just apply pressure you click.... my left hand never leaves the keyboard, where it hovers on the left side... where all the modifier keys are

so we can choord a huge amoount of mouse clicks with the shift-ctrl-opt-cmd keys

but on a laptop its even better... the trackpad is between your right and left hands...

so your left hand is always on the keyboard in the touch type position, right moves between the trackpad and the keyboard... left can always pushing the cntrl key or cmd key or whatever to get how ever many keyclicks you want

So sure, you might not like it... but the single mousebutton is the right choice for the APPLE PowerBook G4 Titanium... and I'm sure you'll get use to cmd and cntrl clicking in linux very soon if you got one... but thats only when you're on the road...

when your on a desk... pull out your USB mouse of choice and plug it in... them MS optical mice work too :)


---
Live Long & Prosper \\//_
CYA STUX =`B^) 'da Captain,

Re:Mouse Buttons and Trolls

[SuiteSisterMary]

My HCI text says that /maybe/ 10% of people use the right mouse button.

Two questions: 1: when was this book published, and 2: who published it? My mouse has four buttons and a clickable scroll wheel, and I use all five on a regular basis. Although, in Windows, using the keyboard at all times is faster. :-)

What is this?

[TheInternet]

This post has so many factual errors that it's comical. Ironically, he bashes "Classic" Mac OS when the story itself is about LinuxPPC. I'd love to hear the rationale from the people that marked it up as "Insightful" and "Interesting."

- Scott

--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Final word on button count:

[caffeinated_bunsen]

Book of Pointing Devices, Chapter 4:

...
Three shall be the number of buttons thou shalt have, and the number of the buttons shall be three.
Four shalt thou not have, neither have thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.
Five is right out.
...

Re:Spread it around...

[Spyky]

Also, for a laptop, what difference does it make whether you have multiple mouse buttons next to the trackpad. Your hands are right next to the keyboard anyway, so you can easily press one of the keys (cntrl) to simulate another mouse button.

Spyky

Re:yes, and?

[HeghmoH]

Saying that most Mac users don't know what UNIX is is a stupid argument. Most PC users don't know what it is either.

One good reason to use Linux on a Mac is if you happen to have a Mac that's not doing anything. A dual P3 machine might be cheap, but it's not cheaper than free. Dual-booting is also a good option, so you can get the MacOS for the stuff that needs it and an interface that doesn't drive you mad with frustration, and then you can boot into Linux for the neatness factor without needing another box.

Not exactly

[macdaddy]

They aren't the same as the Pismo. The board is similar to the Cube board, in shape and size. It also incorporated some UMA-2 features but not all. You can stick PC133 RAM in the later G4s (sawtooth and later) and bump the bus up to 133 automagically.

Cheers,
--MD

--

Re:What's really sad.

[TheInternet]

No, what's really sad is to see a sweet machine crippled by a crappy OS.

I agree. Mac OS X ships on March 24. Some people may prefer LinuxPPC, which is what this article is, oddly enough, about.

- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Re:yes, and?

[TheInternet]

Yep, all the second CPU s doing is keeping the first warm and cozy. :-) The machine cost $4k, so I hope they at least buy OS X when it is released so that the nice hardware won't go to waste.

Depends on what he's doing on OS9. Besides Photoshop (which is the poster boy) some apps do take advantage of the dual CPUs for encoding and video rendering and such. The point is that the second CPU only adds an additionl $300 or so to overall cost, and OSX (out March 24) will make proper use of it. Might as well toss it in.

- Scott

--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

enough with the mouse buttons!

[iso]

yeah yeah yeah, Macs only have one mouse button: big deal. sure it's a pain in the ass if you're using Linux, but the MacOS (including MacOS X) is designed to operate effectively with only one mouse button.

i hated it at first too, so when i bought my first Mac a few years ago (after using Linux and Windows exclusively) i ran out and bought a 3-button mouse. i found however, that after using the MacOS for a while you start to realize that if things are designed with a 1-button mouse in mind, using the standard apple mouse actually made things more convenient. to this day i have two mice plugged into my computer: the standard Apple mouse and a 4-button scroll mouse. i use the 1-button mouse the most, as it's just so much more convenient (and easier on the carpal tunnel) to just click one mouse button, esecially when i'm using photoshop or illustrator. in fact, the only time i use the 4-button mouse is when i'm web browsing as it's got the scroll wheel and the metakey-click combinations map to convenient functions in IE 5.0.

so in closing quit your bitching. it's been discussed here before that if you want to run Linux, you should be using an x86 anyhow. if you're buying a Mac, you'll probably want to (eventually) run OS X, and it works perfectly well with only one button. you can still of course attach an external x-button USB mouse, but again, i find that using the one button is pefectly convient the majority of the time. it's certainly no reason dismiss the Titanium Powerbook G4.

- j

Re:enough with the mouse buttons!

[iso]

Aside from the mouse button "debate", I'd be curious to know what /. readers thought about the differing approaches GUI mouse operation in *nix/MacOS/Windows.

i'd like to see a discussion of this as well: of course, this is completely off-topic for this story. perhaps in a future article.

just a quick note: one of the things i really like about the MacOS is that the pull-down menus are at the top of the screen. as mentioned in your link, this can be accessed "at least five times faster" than an equivalent Windows (or Linux) pull-down menu that's attached to the top of the window. it's also convenient to be able to tell which program is in the forground by looking at the name in the titlebar.

but yes, it deserves a full discussion sometime :). btw: thanks for the link!

- j

Re:Uh...

[blakestah]

The mouse buttons can be VERY easily emulated via the yaboot boot manager. Just pass it the boot varible for the adb mouse button keys, and wa-la, you're there. Besides, you've got your hands on the keyboard, so emulating the 2 mouse buttons is NOT a problem. LinuxPPC/Yellowdog/DebianPPC _all_ have support for USB mouses and keyboards, so just plug in a friggin' mouse.

It would be REALLY nice to be able to take advantage of the Apple hardware without feeling like a second hand mouse user. Some people use their mice a lot. Some people use their keyboard a lot. You, apparently, are one of the latter. Good for you.

But the ergonomic benefits of actually having an intrinsic 3 button mouse should not be lost. I have two buttons on my HP Omnibook, and I REALLY REALLY wish it had three. In fact, so much so that I was willing to pay a little more for three buttons. Unfortunately, I wasn't willing to pony up for a Thinkpad, which is the only real option given my other constraints.

So take it easy on someone who actually appreciates having three buttons on the dern laptop. It could be a benefit, despite the fact that you live happily without it.

It's really sad to see the poster of an article so poorly informed, and such is often the case with Mr.Taco's posts.

An ad hominem attack is poor taste. Say something meaningful. Don't troll.

Re:Spread it around...

[Trepalium]

Such a biting condemnation from a community that devotes space to such earth-shttering topics as hacking the Furby...

I guess you don't know how to use a modifier key? Ctl-click for contextual menus too complex a sequence for you to remember?

Well, he WAS talking about Linux and X Windows System running on a Mac, and for that purpose, one mouse button is insufficient. Even on a two button mouse and "Emulate3Buttons", X is painful to navigate. For the most part, Apple has some damn well designed machines, but for things like running X, the mouse is a limitation.

Re:Accelerating the G4?

[Throw Away Account]

And the Metric system is equally archaic, since it is based on a set of arbitrary units scaled on a number base designed to conform to human body measurements at the expense of usability.

A logical measurement system would use universal fundamental physical constants to define units, like the Planck distance (length) and Planck interval (time), the electron volt (charge), etc. And base 12 would be a superior choice for the base, since it is evenly divisible by 2, 3, 4, and 6, instead of just 2 and 5.

Re:Interesting but...

[TheInternet]

Does LinuxPPC run faster? Using similar software, which system runs the app faster? Which OS eats up more memory? etc.

It's hard to say until OSX goes GM, but in the end, the raw speed difference will probably be somewhat insignifcant compared to the functionality comparison.

- Scott

--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

"Apple is dead" is dead

[TheInternet]

Try this experiment--go to Pricewatch and see what 500 dollars will buy you in Intel architecture hardware. Do your best shopping. Now see what 500 dollars will buy you in Apple hardware.

If all you care about is price, then yes. Go buy a eMachines or Dell. Though, if you can get past your preconceptions and actually figure out that there are advantages to Apple's approach to product development, then you may find yourself on the other side of the argument.

G4 performance is, at worst, reasonably competitive with x86; and at best, actually quite a bit faster in some situations. Though, I know a lot of people just refuse to believe that clock speed could actually be an inaccurate measurement of overall system performance this day and age.

At some point the Apple PR machine will run out of shit and the lie will be exposed for all to see.

Have you actually used OSX yet?

- Scott

--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Re:Hmm... X running on this?

[AArthur]

X wouldn't have any problems, AFAIK, it would just run in a slightly strange resolution (like 768x1124 or something). XFree86 doesn't have any problems with this, as I've seen it run fine in other strange Mac-only resolutions, such as 832x648 or whatever that is. ;)

Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium (OT)

[dhovis]

You know, as a materials engineer, I always find it interesting that a soon as a new material comes on the market it is immediately made into a golf club. I have a professor who is working on a project to create the ultimate steel for making a sword for the purpose of slaying dragons. He is planning on making one sword and auctioning it off and then making golf clubs with the new steel.

Anyway, that said, just because a new material makes a good golf club doesn't make it a good choice for a laptop enclosure. The primary advantage of the amorphous metals (LiquidMetal is a trade name) in golf clubs is their ability to store elastic energy. The alloys themselves are denser than titanium (translation => heavier laptop), these alloys are more expensive than titanium, and there is the problem of beryllium being toxic. Plus, titanium forms a protective oxide that makes it corrosion resistant, whereas beryllium oxide is even more toxic than beryllium metal. The fact that beryllium is toxic is really the killer. Even though you would have to grind the case up and inhale it for it to kill you (eventually, mabye 10-20 years down the road), the public perception that it is toxic would cause serious problems for Apple.
--

Re:Apple will die

[TheInternet]

From what I can tell, he knows that OS X is the last chance for Apple.

I suppose... but only in the way that Earth is the last chance for humanity.

- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Hold out! There is hope!

[Gorimek]

According to Moores lesser known second law, the number of mouse buttons will double regularly.

Re:Spread it around...

[Fluffy the Cat]

MKLinux runs around 10-15% slower than normal Linux on the same hardware. Citing it as a counterexample to a claim that basing MacOSX on top of Mach isn't going to be a performance issue is probably not a great move.

Re:yes, and?

[crucini]

This isn't about Mac users wanting to run Linux, it's about Linux users looking for a good notebook computer to run Linux.

UNIX/Linux people, on the other hand, can not justify buying Apple hardware just to run GNU/Linux, because you can build a dual-processor SMP Pentium III box with a shiteload of RAM for half of what an SMP G4 will cost you.

That would be true if we were talking about desktop machines. The topic here is notebooks. I think a lot of Linux users perceive, rightly or wrongly, that Intel notebooks have poor battery life as a result of all the transistors doing backwards-compatibility things so everyone's favorite obsolete OS can keep working. Thus the interest in RISC notebooks.

MacOS X will make Linux PPC on Macs obselete, by the way.

I doubt that. If I bought a Powerbook to run Linux on, I would have little interest in MacOS X. No matter what great features it has, it's proprietary and tied in to the Apple mindset, which I don't like. I wish Apple all the best in marketing Os X to their core market, but they know and I know that it's not aimed at Unix geeks.

Re:How often do you even use the mouse?!

[crucini]

I use the mouse quite a bit. I'm always pasting subnets or hostnames or usernames between netscape, shell and mutt. I had a two-button mouse for a while with Emulate3Buttons and I nearly threw my computer out the window before I got a three-button.

PC133 RAM

[macdaddy]

Remove the PC100 RAM that came with the Cube and put in PC133 sticks in it. That will help a lot. Also look for a faster hard drive. The ones that are in them are usually Maxtors, which aren't terrible, just not that great.

--

Re:considered it, but not for long

[austad]

I know that 1 button mice suck ass, and everytime I've ever had to use a mac I replace the shitty one button poor excuse for a mouse with a real 3 button mouse or trackball.

The only reason the mice have one button is so idiots don't get confused. It's pathetic. MacOS is set up to work with one button, but other OS's are not and take advantage of the better multiple button setup. Holding down an option key while clicking is a poor workaround for a problem that could easily be solved by rewriting their stupid HCI guideline BS.

Re:Mouse Buttons and Trolls

[Throw Away Account]

When I click once on a file, I select it. A second time, I can rename it. Do it fast and I will run it.

Yes, but what does that have to do with having a right button available?

Look, on a modern automatic-transmission car, only park, reverse, and (over)drive are used by 90% of the people. The other options are still there, and we don't hear people whining about them. There are a dozen buttons on my blender, and I don't understand what eight of them do, but I don't hear anybody claiming that blenders are overly complicated devices. Only a tiny subsset of the vocabulary of most languages is used by the vast majority of the people, but nobody's calling on the Academie Francaise to eliminate 90% of the French vocabulary.

The problem of HCI is that people expect to use electronic devices without spending time learning to operate it, when they wouldn't dream of making such demands of mechanical devices. It's ludicrous, and should be viewed as such.

Now, yes, my various blender buttons are consistent in how they act, and that's an appropriate goal of HCI -- to provide consistency. But consistency is not an antonym of complexity, and HCI that operates on that assumption is inherently flawed.

This notebook is the shit!

[xtal]

I never thought I'd see the day that a machine outclassed the Sony Vaio .. this thing blows it away. I want one, bad.. this machine kicks some serious ass. 1GB of ram? eeek!

All we need is for some big Linux sugardaddy *cough* RedHat *cough* *cough* to pick up LinuxPPC and make this line of notebooks fully supported under Linux.. That would be sweet. It'd be nice if they did the same for something like the Apple G4 also, and then brokered getting hardware drivers set up and whatnot - that'd give Linux a "home" architecture to work from, and allow you to fully exploit the capabilities of the hardware.

Oh well, I can dream.. damn, I want one of those though :). Match a titanium PDA case from Rhinoskin really nice, too.

You know, I wonder about you...

[crovira]

Seriously, just what kind of an ass-hole are you? You've got the processor wrong. Its a G4 not a G3.

It smokes the Pentium IV by about 33% for processor intensive tasks.

You just don't want to admit that I'm gonna look SO-O COOOL whipping one out and watching a DVD with your girl at a Linux Expo while you lug around a lame-ass Vaio and a well thumber copy of Hustler...

From what I remember of the Sun 'luggable' some salesman hauled to my office, it had longer battery life because it was only used to run the clock. The guy had power adaptors for every friggin' continent 'cause the second thing he asked for was the nearest power plug.

The joy of reading this article

[scrytch]

... scrolling through all the posts by brushing my mousewheel lightly, one hand on my mouse on my leg (MS optical mouse, works best there), a beer in my other hand. Didn't have to drag a little thumb around or aim at little bitty arrows, just had to have the mouse button anywhere in the window. Didn't even have to have the mouse flat.

Try and tell me that ain't ergonomic, all ya HCI eggheads.

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Re:shut up about mouse buttons!!!!

[Frymaster]

Remember, us PC folk would love to come to the apple side of things except in my own case atleast...those damned mice piss me off

well, the mice that ship with macs are now are nice, oval-shaped, "no button" laser mice.... the only reason i upgraded to 2.4.0 on my laptop was to use the damn thing.... of course gnome heartily subscribes to the "keyboard on wheels" theory of mice, so it's useless... oh well...

here's the deal: the mouse is a pointing device, not a mini-keyboard. If people want "added functionality" with extra buttons and levers and foot-pedals etc that's fine, but we should remember that that's supposed to be added functionality... as in "extra." The fact that most operating systems now can't be operated unless you have a 3-button frankenmouse shows a screwed up sense of design. Take windows up until fairly recently: files would get their names truncated at 8 characters all the time, but the os could support a mouse with 9 buttons, 3 wheels a lever and a trigger. It's all about adding needless complexity and calling it innovation.

About the mouse...

[B14ckH013Sur4]

Don't you think someone could hack a usb mouse as a kernel mod? A lot of people comment on how the linux community usually mimics other OSs, and how we lack true ingenuity (not me, I'm not that ignorant; but I've heard it numorous times). Why has noone hacked a 3-button mouse for Apple(tm) hardware? It would certainly get a "k3w1-H4ck" story on /. Just a troll thinking out-loud...

Complain to me when Linux can copy and paste.

[TomatoMan]

For God's sake. I love Linux. I do. But Linux geeks complaining about anything GUI-related from Apple have no leg to stand on, and doing so sounds just plain silly.

Be sure and let me know when Linux has a simple GUI where every app can do the simple task of copy and paste among them - twenty-year-old technology by most standards. Every time I copy text in one app, paste in another, and see nothing, I roll my eyes and shake my head. And this with the very latest bleeding-edgest GNOME/Sawfish/Enlightenment/whatever.

Maybe if the Linux world only had one mouse button to worry about, it could get it right. Then add more buttons once the first one works.

Maybe OSX is scaring the shit out of Linux partisans because it's going to put the world's most advanced GUI on top of a rock-solid kernel, which the Linux world has never managed to even come close to?

Sheesh.

TomatoMan

Re:Complain to me when Linux can copy and paste.

[Erasmus Darwin]

Tell me where the documentation is that explains why copying a URL from Netscape and choosing "Paste" in a term window doesn't do anything.

Using a pretty much stock RH 6.2 install (with whatever updates were available from the RH updates directory), I had no problem copying and pasting between a gnome terminal window and Netscape (4.76, again installed from the RH 6.2 update directory). The process was:

Go to terminal window. Type in a URL.
Highlight URL with by dragging across it with left mouse button.
Switch to Netscape. Middle-click in URL field to paste.
Go to a different site in Netscape. Highlight new URL with left button drag.
Switch back to terminal window. Paste with middle button.

However, most of what I do in Linux is done with text consoles. I've never had a problem with gpm copying-and-pasting (I even used it for the quoted text at the top of this posting), other than the issue of text sometimes scrolling while I'm trying to copy it (it'd be nice if gpm auto-scroll locked; hell, it might even be a feature already in it that I've been too lazy to discover). It also uses the same left-drag to select, middle-click to paste as mentioned aboved, which adds some nice continuity for when I occasionally have to switch to X to go to a site that's lynx-unfriendly.

I don't understand why Apple used titanium

[Chuck Flynn]

In their new powerbooks, I mean. Why'd Apple go with titanium when there are perfectly good alternatives like liquidmetal, an alloy of nickel, zirconium, titanium, copper, and beryllium, which has already been in golf clubs for three years and which is twice as strong as titanium. It can't be just for the sake of marketing, can it? If that were the case, then why would they be running linux?

Re:I don't understand why Apple used titanium

[IronChef]

Just because it makes a good golf club doesn't mean it would make a good laptop enclosure. I bet it's expensive too -- it's got beryllium in it, and that isn't cheap.

Re:Proper mouse buttons?

[spitzak]

The problem with these arguments is that there are 102 keys on the keyboard, and nobody seems to be saying it would be better to have only one key.

If the original mice had printed something (like "menu" or "right" or anything) on the buttons, I don't think there would be any argument today and there would be multi-button mice.

Re:Design considerations

[tao]

You can still do both. It is still possible to tilt your foot while pushing it forward, right?! (At least, I know *I* can do so.)

Oh, and as for your point, you can do a LOT with a racing-car that you can't do with an ordinary car. It's all a question about striking a proper balance between the level of complication and the level of maximum prestanda. In most cases the average user rather wants ease of use.

Solution to one-button mouse "problem" is simple.

[haaz]

The PBG4 has a USB port.

Buy a USB three-button mouse.

Plug it in.

You may have to run mouseconfig or something like that to get it to see all three buttons.

And enjoy. :)

Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.

Re:for the record

[Shoeboy]

so where did you repost it? I'm curious. It was original and a true story.
--Shoeboy

No surprise...

[imac.usr]

The TiBook is essentially the most recent PowerBook (a.k.a. Pismo) with a G4 stuck in it. Same basic logic board design and such. What about running on the new 133MHz-bus Power Macs?

Now, what's more impressive is that it also boots on a non-upgraded Power Mac 7300, thanks to the instructions found at StepWise. Even runs pretty quick, too.

Besides, who needs more than one mouse button anyway? :-]


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There is more then one PowerPC distribution

[ebenson]

It seems there is a real `Redhat == Linux' like syndrome with PowerPC GNU/Linux except its `LinuxPPC 2000 == Linux on PowerPC'

All of the distributions that run on PowerPC use the same Linux kernel, thus all distributions which run on PowerPC will also run on this new machine.

Just a few other GNU/Linux distributions which run on PowerPC hardware including this PowerBook:

Debian
SuSE
YellowDog

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Giving away CDs == good.

[haaz]

I just realized: If we hadn't given away 1,000 LPPC 2000 Q4 install CD-ROMs, we wouldn't have known the PBG4 to be compatible. Gotta like that. :)

Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.

Re:'normal linux' on the same hardware...

[Fluffy the Cat]

MKLinux will not run on PCI powermacs.

MKLinux supports a large number of PCI powermacs, most of which also support LinuxPPC. In addition, there are now patches to let you run the standard kernel on nubus machines - see http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/.

Calm down!

[biglig2]

Look, it seems simple enough:

MacOS is designed for one button

Windows is designed for two buttons

X is designed for three buttons

The point is that someone buying a Powerbook intending to run Linux and hence X on it would find it nicer to have 3 buttons; but since Apple expect people to be running MAcOS they only put one button on the thinkpad.

I'm not sure what is so extraordinary about this. I mean, my Dell Lattitude has the same problem; Dell expect me to be running Windows on it so the trackpad only has 2 buttons.

Look at the positive side - at least you have the possibility of changing Linux so it supports less buttons (as indeed Emulate3Buttons does on my Dell. Try running Windows on a single-button mouse and see how far you get.

shut up about mouse buttons!!!!

[Frymaster]

Its really sad to see such a sweet machine crippled by lack of proper mouse buttons.

holy cow, everytime the word apple is even breathed in passing someone (hundreds of someone's actually) bleat off about the mouse button count... honest to god, i am starting to get sick of it.

1. plug in a mouse in the usb port in the back. 2.4.0 supports usb quite nicely (osx does as well, wink wink)
2. start a group on sourceforge to "fix" gnome to actually be functional with one mouse button.

sheesh

flame if you must

Spread it around...

[Lurking_Saint]

I love seeing otherwise intelligent commentators pumping a dry well. CmdrTaco, Apple seems completely unphased by your assault on it's supply of mouse-buttons. If that's the only resource that comes up short in your assesment of the new Apple HW, then I guess that's the kind of shortage we can live with. Microsoft itself has found that only 10% of users even use a right click AT ALL, EVER. Such a biting condemnation from a community that devotes space to such earth-shttering topics as hacking the Furby...

I guess you don't know how to use a modifier key? Ctl-click for contextual menus too complex a sequence for you to remember?

I admire the rest of the comments about Mac acceleration (newtonian, not processor), alternate booting sequences (the leather kind, not the startup kind), and the endless litany of lame jokes that reaveal that the Open-Source movement and the Slashdot crowd aren't above their own sort of bigotry. Why did you even post the story and link unless it was to offer a punching bag to the trolls? Are you just jealous that OSX is gonna do more to bring *nix to the masses than your 6+ years of obscure forum posting and mutual masturbation have? Can't bring yourself to admit that cool and stylish counts to some folks?

I look forward to being moderated down as flamebait. That seems to be the only way the moderators can respond to a true reflection.

Re:Spread it around...

[TheInternet]

Are you just jealous that OSX is gonna do more to bring *nix to the masses than your 6+ years of obscure forum posting and mutual masturbation have?

Easy, we're all on the same side here for the most part.

I'm as big an Apple supporter as anyone, but I think you went a bit overboard. A lot of people would like to see two button mice on Macs -- including something people inside Apple, apparently, as OSX's contextual menus do work with the right mouse button on most USB mice.

- Scott


--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

How often do you even use the mouse?!

[green pizza]

I don't know about you, but aside from moveing some xterms around, or clicking on a link in Mozilla, I really don't use the mouse too often. I mean, this is linux and we've got awesome shells and awesome command line utilities. And probably the best part about not using GUIs for important things is that you can telnet/ssh in from another location and do you work without feeling 'crippled'. On a website forum where folks have vi vs emacs arguments, I'm really amazed to see someone consider the number of mouse buttons to even be an issue.

Uh...

[CodeToad]

The mouse buttons can be VERY easily emulated via the yaboot boot manager. Just pass it the boot varible for the adb mouse button keys, and wa-la, you're there. Besides, you've got your hands on the keyboard, so emulating the 2 mouse buttons is NOT a problem. LinuxPPC/Yellowdog/DebianPPC _all_ have support for USB mouses and keyboards, so just plug in a friggin' mouse. It's really sad to see the poster of an article so poorly informed, and such is often the case with Mr.Taco's posts.

"News"

[sharkey]

So Slashdot is going to change its name? Henceforth, it will be known as,

Slashdot
For Nerds. Stuff that matters.

No more "News" for Nerds, no way.

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Re:Proper mouse buttons?

[willy_me]

I can't understand why anyone would want just one mouse button, but that's not the point.

Some examples for you:
- My Grandfather. Trying to get a 92 year old man to understand what the second mouse button does is near impossible. Because of his poor motor skills, he reguarly hits the wrong mouse button. This is frustrating both for him and myself because I have to explain why the computer didn't do what he thought he told it to do.
- My Father. He hates computers and basically just uses them for his eMail. He doesn't use contextual menus nor does he care to. For him, two mouse buttons is one too many.
- My Nephew. Sure he'll learn, and probably appreciate the extra mouse button, but right now it just complicates things for him.

There are people out there who only want one mouse button. In fact, the majority of people out there with two only use the one anyway. (This of course excludes /. users.)

Don't forget the audience for which Apple targets their computers. For those people, one mouse button is exactly what they need.

The point is that, in the context of using X, one mouse button is just not cutting it.

Don't forget that MacOSX is designed to be used with one mouse button. It supports additional buttons but no programs out there require any additional buttons - they work great with only one. Now if you're talking about XWindows then that's a different story. But don't forget, OSX and XWindows both target different audiences.

Willy

They haven't tested ethernet yet?

[SuuSt]

At what point to you go to the effort of installing Linux and making sure it boots and all of that, and NOT test ethernet. Now, perhaps their special ethernet cards require specail modules, but that would seem to say that they DON'T work with Linux, at least yet. Just try each module, does one of them work, theres the compatability.

However, since they have overlooked this, I will be happy to test it for them, simply send me a G4 powerbook and I'll test every ethernet module in existince.

Re:Apple will die

[dbrutus]

>>Mac OS X is, without question, the first UNIX that will break into the mainstream desktop market. But unless they start thinking about being a little more practical with it and with their hardware designs, people just won't care enough to continue buying Mac>>

The entire move to Mac OS X is based on practicality. The ability to run BSD applications is finally going to kill the 'not enough apps' argument because somewhere in Cupertino, is somebody porting WINE to OS X. Right next door is the group that is taking all the open source standard bearers and creating automated ways of taking the code and wrapping a Mac OS X compliant interface on them.

As for their hardware designs, what is impractical about a 5 hour battery life? Or does 5.3 pounds in a notebook strike you as too flighty? Is adding a PCI slot to their desktop line and upping their bus speed to 133Mhz something that is a problem for you?

Apple may occasionally come out with something like their twentieth century machine or the cube but, on average, they have a higher percentage of hits per design risk than most other computer companies. This is partly because so much of the industry is made up of commoditized herd followers.

Whenever you innovate, you are going to have your share of duds and your share of hits. Apple's salvation is keeping the ratio of hits to duds as high as possible. These new machines are likely to further that goal.

DB

Come on... you call yourself a hacker.

[Moofie]

Rather than whine about the lack of multiple mouse buttons, program the trackpad to recognize taps in the corners as different events. Program them to do whatever you want..."right mouse" button, control click, command click, whatever. Program it like the Thinking Mouse I've been using on my Mac for five years-different button mapping, designed by me, for each application.

In other words, why are all these people so willing to work around the limitations of commercially available hardware unless it has an Apple logo on it?

Unix in OSX

[TheInternet]

Last I've heard, in the non-server edition, they've obscured the *nix parts enough that only someone who wanted to get to them could.

I don't know what this means, exactly. OSX hides things like /etc, /bin and such by default when the user is in the GUI. Just launch Terminal and you can see everything. You can change the default behavior of the GUI (at least in the beta), by flipping a bit in an XML file.

You should also get up to speed on the differences between Mac OS X (shipping in March) and the new version of Mac OS X Server (shipping April/May). They are from the same codebase, and are considerably different that Mac OS X Server 1.2 (essentially Rhapsody), which is currently available.

Bringing "Unix to the masses" isn't going to consist of expecting everyone to become comfortable with /etc and bash. It's going to consist of taking the functionality and features of Unix, and wrapping them in a consistent, approachable user interface. The masses aren't going to change for Unix. Unix will have to change for the masses (I know I sound like a broken record).

This thing also runs on Mach, which is SLOW. (MKlinux anyone?)

There is a big difference in between MkLinux and Darwin.

- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Re:Please rename "Apple" topic to "Flamebait"

[MouseR]

Look, if some Linux trolls only have the single-mouse-button argument to prove a point, let them at it.

Though, we should add this to the comment filters.

Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.

Linux on Mac - Just as usable as x86

[Lycestra]

Why are people complaining about one button mice and odd chipsets? The fact of the matter is, Linux runs very usable on a mac, even for a PC convert as myself.

Mice - the Linux kernel naturally supports 3 button mice. 2 button is usable, 3 is great. in the proper environment, a single button is still valid, though in general, a PC user is just to used too multi-button to even try single button for more than 5 minutes. Now, since Linux knows what a 3 button mouse is, all you need is drivers that do those buttons right. Guess what... they're already there. the Kensington Thinking mouse (4 button) has support for the three standard buttons. 4th, who knows. hack in support if you like clickers and it isn't already there. As for powerbooks, of which I own one (a "PDQ"), there are ways of emulating two or three buttons. This can be done using meta-click combos, or keys, like what I use, F11/F12. no problem. As for USB, Linux/PPC had decent usable USB support a couple stable kernels before x86 had rudimentary USB support, including the "new input layer" and all the normal USB. Conclusion: the only gripe about buttons one can have is that multi-'s aren't standard included, and in the case of a powerbook, because its built in, you suddenly feel obligated to use complicated finger combos, or as with mine, two handed... :/ But I have my Thinking Mouse when I need it.

"Proprietary" chipsets: some chips in the mac are similar to x86, like the USB controller, and are fairly well supported accross x86 and ppc in parallel. Firewire support is coming along, and most other features tend to be well supported within maybe 6 months of their release, often with little help from Apple. ATI did work with Ben Herrenschmidt on an issue that came up, and I commend them on taking that initiative. There also tend to be endian issues here and there, like in pcmcia (which works fairly well) and video. x86 have a habit of looking the other way. :)

Looking at Apple's released specs, the block diagram looks similar to the iBook and Cube, in that it has the core IO board "KeyLargo" and other ASICs are similar. just a matter of time before this bad boy works perfectly.

Basically, in terms of hardware support, the only thing hindering the Linux/PPC crowd is that it isn't trendy enough that things go quickly, and there is also the fact that Linus is quite obviously x86-biased. Binary-only distribution of programs also tend to hurt usability, if you go for those sorts. MTVp is still antique and unsupported, and since the open-sourcing, OpenOffice has been coming along, but is not quite there yet. (No, OpenOffice doesn't just compile on linux/ppc straight. It is to be considered a port, as it is taking that sort of effort to get it there)

I think the next big step in linux/ppc's development is user support. i've noticed small annoying issues that nobody addresses. User support is growing, now thanks to new stable distributions like Suse, Debian, etc, and the continued improving efforts of LinuxPPC Inc. and TerraSoft. But we have a way to go yet before it stays on par consistant with x86.

my $.02

(Using Linux 4 years, converted from PC to Mac hardware 2 years ago.)

Re:Back up the train

[imac.usr]

Heh. I was thinking idly of flaming you to hell and gone, but then I remembered the wise words of Dalton from Road House -- "Be nice." Works every time. (Plus I accidentally watched it again last night on TNT.)

I got my Pismo in March too, so I figure getting 18-24 months out of it is a good deal (I kind of like the BatBook shape better anyway).

Love the groundhog pic on your site, BTW.


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