Nokia's $400 Linux Terminal For The Masses

acoopersmith writes: "In the San Jose Mercury News coverage of the recent Consumer Electronics Show was this article about the new Nokia "Media Terminal" - a device that's designed as a cross between a TiVo and a WebTV, but which is really a Linux PC, including USB& FireWire ports for attaching additional storage, scanners, and printers, and other expansion capabilities. Has the hacker-friendly "appliance" finally arrived?"

Comments

On screen

[rich22]

This "appliance" has one very nice benefit that shouldn't be overlooked. The TV display output allows for a much larger picture at no additional cost to most consumers. Given, there is a large tradeoff in image quality compared to a computer monitor, but the people who fit the market for a product like this will appreciate it - especially if the device will be used like an actual PC. The TV display should be a real selling point for Nokia. Not only does it save lots of money, but many elderly folks have a hard time even with large monitors.

Lowering the cost of modern PC technology allows a new set of consumers to enjoy it. I'm glad Nokia made a provision that may better cater to their needs.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[American AC in Paris]

I'd disagree. There's plenty of modes, and not one is dominant. Do you think the homeless guy on the street is worried more about entertainment or his next meal? Boredom or freezing that night? How about those people in the earthquake in El Salvador right now? Boredom? Or, a more mundane example, the secretary working on a contact list for the marketing division of your favorite corporation? There are more things going on than the alleviation of boredom, even in the world of computing.

Well, consider Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. While entertainment certainly doesn't come into play with physiological and safety needs (your examples of the homeless person and the earthquake victim, respectively,) once one reaches the third and subsequent level of the hierarchy, the value of entertainment can be quite high. Bear with me on this one.

Consider, for a moment, that your basic physiological and safety needs are met. You live in a permanent domicile, you have a steady job, and you are in no forseeable danger of losing your physiological or safety needs. Thus, you are free to pursue the remaining three needs: Love/Affection/Belongingness, Esteem, and Self-Actualization needs. For various reasons, not many people ever succeed in pursuing all three of the above. Some people manage to find love, but never chase their dreams and opportunities. Others have powerful personalities and vast success, but lack anyone to share this with. Even more people live day to day, alone, without achievement or pride, going through the motions of life.

I see entertainment as a means of filling these gaps. People who couldn't run a mile without collapsing regularly watch professional sports, absorbing the abilites of the atheletes in place of their own inadequacies. People watch "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" and go window shopping to fill percieved shortcomings in their own career achievements. People purchase self-affirming Chicken-Soup-style books and buy into things like the Spice Girls' "Girl Power" to artificially bolster their own lacking self-esteem. All of the above are forms of entertainment; entertainment allows us to feel better about who we are.

In addition to making us feel better about who we are, though, entertainment can provide a very real impetus for self-improvement. Kids watch Michael Jordan play basketball and set themselves to become professional atheletes. Some even succeed; many others gain a valuable appreciation for physical conditioning and personal health that lasts their entire lives. People go to the theater, the opera, or the films to introduce new thoughts to their minds, and to help themselves grow intellectually. People visit singles bars and clubs searching for friendship and love; quite often, they find it. Entertainment, beyond being a simple diversion, becomes the very means for delving deeper into these last three levels of need.

Computer entertainment brings exciting new possibilites. One can play Quake with people you've known for years but never met in person. One becomes capable of flying, space exploration, and gravity-defying acrobatics without having to leave one's seat. One can even make a fulfilling career out of computer entertainment, acting as a developer, guide, advice columnist, commentator, or any number of things. Computer entertainment provides a degree and depth of interaction that surpasses all other forms of entertainment except face-to-face interaction with another human being.

Yes, the applications for computers are wide-ranging, but rarely carry much personal importance for the user. It's wonderful to have a fully-geatured word processor, powerful database, and security services. But these things have little immediate value to the individual user, even if you use them every day for work. Unless your self-actualization needs are met by them (for example, your life's work is designing and developing screamingly fast database servers, and you take great pride in what you do,) it's not as important to you as doing something entertaining. Like playing Solitare or Minesweeper, or finally fragging that really good player in Norway (and getting "whoa, nice shot" in return.)

This, in my opinion, is why entertainment-based computing devices will play a huge role in the future of computing. I'm good with SQL and I make a living off coding web sites, but I enjoy picking people off from 1 km with the Sniper Rifle in Tribes. I like coding, but it's what pays the bills. (Mind you, I've been spending a lot more time running around the city with my wife than gaming, but hey, that's more fun to me right now.)

After you've fulfilled the basics of survival and are living a relatively safe life, entertainment becomes quite valuable. It helps you forget your own shortcomings, while simultaneously providing the opportunity to learn how to overcome them.

information wants to be expensive...nothing is so valuable as the right information at the right time.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[SubtleNuance]

Look up "Amusing ourselves to Death" a book by Neil Postman

Ever thought we may end up like Wells' Eloi?

Or as an enslaved, mindless, soma phreak like in Huxley's Brave New World? (the McCarthy inspired Anti-Communist undertones will DEFINATLEY not be part of that future)

More like a quote in a book I read recently (Fawcett's Cambodia: A Book for People Who Find Television Too Slow... to quote (loosely) He went on for a few pages about how "all through time 'would-be' oppressors/tyrants/dictators/kings/priests/etc have tried to enslave the 'average' person. And every time he learns that a slave's output (production) is lower - that the level of oppression is inversely proportional to his output. 'Slaves' will always find a way to do little work - while just doing enough to keep themselves from being killed (you cant kill all your slaves for poor performance)" He then later went on to say "God help us if someone finds a way to prove history untrue - meaning a way to make enslaved people want to work harder". When he said that I literally shuddered - I thought " Oh Crap - I think they have.".

When I look around at what all our discoveries, technology and culture has 'culminated' to - and what our 'direction' and goals (which we really have none) it was like being kicked in the chest - I spent 3 days relating this too friends and family (who mostly think Im a lunatic ("Your too serious, relax, take it easy" is commonly their reply))

Think about the way we relate to one another (through popular media), the consumerism, the blindly shallow culture (there is virtually nothing outside of 'pop' culture), and the way that we encourage and reward this behavior. That anything outside of entertaining ourselves and indulging ourselves has been forgotten. Im not suggesting we all have to live like martyrs and such, but it looks like we've become too complacent to adjust our culture to respond to anything of any real value...

Am I really supposed to give a fucking shit about Tommy Hilfiger, Monica Lewinsky, Jim Carrey's love life, or what Leonardo Decaprio eats for breakfast?

A few corrections and some facts

[angels shadow]

Well, Nokia is finish but the terminal is Swedish! It is developed mainly in Linköping, Sweden by Nokia Home Communications. The Linux is in the bottom Red Hat. The box is Open Source with restrictions to the lowest parts of the plattform and the Nokia branded Navibars(TM) navigation system. There will be a developer site up and running hopefully whitin the month. The idea with the site is to let anyone get hold of the info to get started with developing for the box. Macromedia is not a file format or a communication format but a company responible for a couple of web techniques called Flash and Shockwave.

Could this be done independently?

[MrHatken]

What's the chance of me (or someone) doing something like this on their own (ie to create something like a TiVo or ReplayTV or whatever they call them boxes that record and playback TV on a hard disk)? My video's broke and I don't want to buy another one (since our local video store closed anyway). I just want to record regular programs (only a few hours a week) and play them back (skipping the adds) at my convenience! What sort of components could I get of the shelf and how much would it roughy cost? For example, TV tuner and video capture and playback ... PC - how fast, how much memory, how big hard disk? OS - could a standard Linux release hack it? SW - what about an app? (an "MP3 player" 4 video) Sure would be nice to be able to play DVDs (and record them ie the new Pioneer drive), as well as store digital pics and MP3 music. My guess is this is going to be the killer app / system of this decade! Just an idea (I really don't want to buy a video) Cheers, Ashley.

Re:Could this be done independently?

[stripes]

The reason I'm interested is that TiVo, for all it's wonderfulness and the fact that it's a finished product, is still just television. What I want is a multimedia box that sits in my Family room and does TiVo stuff for the TV (with video ports on the front panel for patching in camcorders, etc.) and can play computer games using the TV as a monitor (with USB ports on the front panel for joystick, etc.) and can serve as an audio jukebox (with audio ports on the front panel) to pipe music to PCs (or perhaps to one or two of these) throughout the house and can do them all at the same time -- play a game while recording a TV show while serving music to another room.

I don't want a TiVo-like box that does all that. Mostly I want to keep the game playing in a diffrent unit (possably loading games off the home entertainment system...). Game systems tend to push down to the bare metal, and I don't want to have that on my "mission critical" TV recorder :-) Nor do I want to force the game makers to not go to bare metal if they want too...

However it would be nice if it did the jukebox stuff. And I would love to be able to hook together more then one of these and have them record from diffrent streams, and also any one should be able to read off of the others. And if some get diffrnet channel line ups *say two on satalite, one on cable, one on an antenna), well I should see the union of all of them when I go to select stuff to record. Oh, and you need to be able to tell it how the reception is ("don't record ABC from there unless you really really have too, it ghosts").

Camcorder input would be nice. Non-linear video editing would be nice. Archiving (onto a DAT or DLT jukebox?) would rock. Being able to accept suggestions from friends could be cool. There are a ton of things that I think would fit into the perview of "networked super video recorder and playback monster".

Does anyone know of a TV tuner card with a built-in MPEG codec chip -- and Open, of course, preferably with Linux drivers already written (hey, an AC can dream, right?)

Not that I know of, but Hauppage just announced a new one. And they are advetising this kind of feature, so I expect they would publish docs...maybe.

Re:Could this be done independently?

[stripes]

What's the chance of me (or someone) doing something like this on their own (ie to create something like a TiVo or ReplayTV or whatever they call them boxes that record and playback TV on a hard disk)?

There are basically three hard things the TiVo (and I hope Nokia's box) does:

• Real-time MPEG2 encode (except the DirecTiVo) -- this is "hard" as in interfacing to a chip that does it, or "hard" needing a whole lot more CPU then you'll get cheep.
• Drool-proof interface. This really is a hard thing to do. And TiVo does a quite nice job. Even after using it for a week you'll find little corners where they did a nice job (and places they could have done more).
• Streaming one (or two on the DirecTiVo -- someday) encoded video to disk while reading and decoding another stream AND making a PPP connectiong and transfering data, or indexing that data without the video getting choppy, or losing input sync. In TiVo's case with very little RAM (16M?)

If you did this as a home project you can ditch the drool-proof interface. You can ditch the "very little RAM", and you can apply a lot more CPU, or maybe you can find a MPEG codec chip with actual docs. It is still a lot of work. Oh, and for a homebrew version you will need a source of TV Guide info.

It is a lot of work. Doable, but still a lot of work.

As far as hardware in the TiVo, it has a tiny bit of RAM (16M? 8M?), a MPEG codec, and a fairly slow PowerPC, like 50Mhz (the MPEG codec does most of the lifting), and fast, but not "AV" IDE drives. They sell for $399 new. If they had an ethernet it would be a no-brainer to get one of them and hack it (you can get to the Bash prompt easy, all you need is a cable, you don't even need to open the case!). A 30G disk is probably a good size.

You won't save money doing it yourself. You may end up with a better toy (at least better for your needs). Hell you may end up with a viable product. You may have fun. You will not save time. Or you could end up with another pile of hardware you arn't using, and another project abandonded before completion. I bought the TiVo, but I have a few other things I'm working on just now...

Re:Could this be done independently?

[Dicky]

TiVo has been available in the UK in a PAL version for about 3 months now. Just so you know :-)

I'll check back Thursday evening...

[1010011010]

www.nokia.com is temporarily off-line for scheduled maintenance.
www.nokia.com will return by Thursday evening, January 18 2001. (GMT)

- - - - -

Buzzwords

[Fervent]

Did anyone read the article?

The new Media Terminal platform is technologically based on open standards and components such as HTML, JavaScript, DVB, MHP, Linux, Mozilla, and X86 PC architecture.

Sounds to me like a rousing game of "how many buzzwords can we fit into a press paragraph"? But seriously, just because a product is based on Linux doesn't necessarily mean the final product will only run Linux.

I mean, hell, I'm sure some elements of Windows 2000 (process ID's, killing things in the task manager, etc.) were borrowed from traditional UNIX examples and even modern-day Linux and FreeBSD code (you don't think Microsoft has taken a gander at most of the free code by now? Yeah right). But Windows 2000, even if it's "based" in a theoretical UNIX world, is still Windows reality (one of the best Windows I've seen Microsoft produce, but a Windows reality just the same).

-
-Be a man. Insult me without using an AC.

its makes good sense.

[ndfa]

Celeron 366 , 32 - 64 Megs of ram.... of course they are going to choose linux, and they can re-write what they way.... my question is what freaking distro did they use ? and how open is their own software ? Seems like a good way to get good bang for your buck, now can someone please tell me what ftp/ssh/http capabilities does this thing have ? Hahah, lets over clock the processor, throw in more memory and be able to broadcast a tv feed from it! now thats a good way to use this puppy...

Re:its makes good sense.

[ndfa]

smoking that stong stuff....

And I am aware that what a distro is, and I doubt that they are going to roll their own. I mean that would mean they would have to come up with some sort of patching/upgrading system and that would be pretty stupid to re-write when it already exists.

Re:its makes good sense.

[slim]

There's nothing to stop anyone rolling their own distro which supports (say) RPM. And if you think this box is going to have something like RedHat on it you're fundamentally misunderstanding the product.

Unless you hack it, this thing is *not* going to have a bash prompt. You won't have your own directory in /home/. GCC won't be an installable option. Think of something like TiVo -- that runs Linux, but as far as the user is concerned it's more like a VCR than a computer.

Yeah, this'll go a bit further than TiVo in that it'll be able to install new software off the Net, and it'll have some derivative of Mozilla on board, but even that will feel more like browsing the web on (say) a Dreamcast, than it will feel like using a PC.
--

Re:"resembles a George Foreman Grill,"

[Stephen Samuel]

As far as I know, there's no restriction on service conditions, as long as Nokia makes the source to all the GPL-associated code available, they can do what they want with the rest. The point of the GPL is that -- once you have source code -- you have the option of doing your own service, if necessary.

In the meantime, though, my question is: Who's going to be the first person to make a hoot kit available? (drivers and software to make the machine fully functional)

(In case you're wondering, I made up the name 'hoot kit'. The etymology should be obvious)
`ø,,ø!

Contractual agreements?

[Fervent]

Anyone see a contract for this thing? It sounds like a fun box to play with, but if it's another iOpener switch (notice I didn't say "bait and switch", because I don't think they knew what they were doing), I'll pass.

-
-Be a man. Insult me without using an AC.

Now what's a hacker to do???

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the challange now is to try and hack windoze onto it. How dare those corporate fat cats tell me what os to run on my machine :)

I wonder which is the bigger challange... installing linux on a tv box designed to run windoze, or to install windoze on a tv box designed to run linux?

Re:Would you maybe know...

[stripes]

... how one gets to a bash prompt on the ReplayTV?

I don't think it runs a Unix. Some people have been working on reverse engenering it's filesystem though. I don't think they have gotten as far as the DISHPlayer 7000 folks though.

"resembles a George Foreman Grill,"

[Bonker]

Hmmm.... It's a lean, mean, Penguin grillin' machine!

Theoretically, even though it runs Linux, Nokia's hardware license/service contract could be restrictive. GNU Experts: How does the GPL effect hardware and service restrictions?

Ask Yourself a question.

[Lover's Arrival, The]

This may seem unrelated to the article, but all will become clear in just a moment, and you shall see why it is relevant.

Ask yourself a question. What is the dominant mode at the beginning of the 21'st century? I would say it is entertainment. Entertainment is the lynchpin of all forms of Human interaction and media these days, from business meetings using projectors and whizz bang graphics to our schools, where children are taught in an entertaining fashion as teachers realise their young minds are used to the compleity and speed of television. Entertainment is what our century will be all about, whether it be in business, education, or government. People in earlier centuries may have strove to be free, or to be educated, or to be saved, but in ours we merely want to be entertained. They were scared of being damned or killed. We are scared of being bored.

Now, the point about this with regard to these new Hacker friendly appliances is that we can see this trend in action. Everything must be entertaining. It is no longer good enough to have a PDP10, with wires sticking out everywhere designed specially for the real hacker. The 21st century hacker must also be entertained.

This is part of a wider trend. It is no longer good enough for a computer OS and GUI to be easy to use - that is 90's and passe. It must be intrinsically entertaining, like Enlightenment is, a little. These new appliances are the first wave of the new paradigm of 21st century computing. We had better get used to it.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[SomeoneYouDontKnow]

I partially agree with you. I think that companies such as AOL, WebTV/Microsoft, Netpliance (isn't that the name), etc. think that people want these set-top boxes so they can be entertained by using the Net on their TVs or doing something similar. From what I've seen, sales of these things haven't been exactly overwhelming. By and large, people are still getting Internet access via computers. Meanwhile, you've got people ripping these boxes apart to try to turn them into something more useful than their original form. Sure, you can build the coolest, fastest, most tricked-out PC in your neighborhood, yet not that many folks post that fact on places like Slashdot. They do, however, post articles about how to make these set-top boxes do things they weren't designed to do. I don't look down on these people one bit. I get your point that old minicomputers didn't have all the pretty bells and whistles that these boxes have now, but I don't see what folks are doing as less challenging. They're just working with what they're given. I do agree with you that our culture is preoccupied with entertainment. I've also begun to think about how the mass production of movies, music, television programs, and possibly even literature has moved us toward a point where corporations are almost single-handedly creating our culture for us. This is definitely a Very Bad Thing. It's also occurred to me that all the recent discourse about copyrights and IP misses the point a bit. Even with freer access to copyrighted works, who we are is still being defined by huge multinational corporations. Independent media is quickly slipping away, and only it holds the key to truly breaking our society away from the dominance of the media conglomerates. To get back around to the subject at hand, having a set-top box that is relatively open, as the Nokia appears to be, may hold some promise. Now there's a chance to reach the public in the place that they look at most: their TV screens. With the right software, independent and alternative programmers have a shot at getting the viewing public to look at their work in a way that is much more like the traditional media the public is used to. So, in the case of the Nokia, I can see a set-top box that I can look at with something other than contempt. This thing might have some promise. Instead of existing simply to dumb down the Internet, it might actually have the potential, if exploited correctly, to bring prople content they might have otherwise never found.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[dog13a]

Read any good Michael Crichton books lately...

your post is an exact quote from one of his newer books, Timeline

interesting as it is...a little credit is due

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[valen]

The homeles guy in the street isn't in a Market Segment that nokia care about. They are targeting people with loads of money. And damn straight they want to be entertained.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[krmt]

I'd disagree. There's plenty of modes, and not one is dominant. Do you think the homeless guy on the street is worried more about entertainment or his next meal? Boredom or freezing that night? How about those people in the earthquake in El Salvador right now? Boredom? Or, a more mundane example, the secretary working on a contact list for the marketing division of your favorite corporation? There are more things going on than the alleviation of boredom, even in the world of computing.

And as for this being "the new paradigm of 21st century computing" I'd disagree there too. Computers have always provided some form of entertainment, from Space Invaders to Quake (and that's just the games) but they also provide other things that aren't just for fun like word processing or database access. People will still use computers for things like firewalls and print servers and DNA analysis because they're effective tools. These devices are not the new paradigm of computing simply because they're new and focused on fun. That's no different than a PC that people can program games and OS kernels on. The "new paradigm" of computing will be a plurality of functions, just like the "old paradigm."

"I may not have morals, but I have standards."

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[American AC in Paris]

My muscles will not get bigger by forgetting that they are 'small'. I won't increase my cardio-vascular performance by watching the game on cable. And I won't learn to make myself fitter by watching an Olympic athlete do the high jump. I mean, that's way too advanced. I need something more on my own level, like a Pillates video, that I can begin to practice with.

Yes, generally it can be inspiring to see what the body is capable of, but once inspired, I have to get out of my chair and go swimming or join the gym. And it's just soooo much easier to say, "later", and change channel.

Hmm. My post was somewhat incomplete, I fear. I consider entertainment as more of a catalyst than an element in the pursuit of higher needs. I agree that it is up to the individual to actually capitalize on the opportunity, and agree further that many never do; however, I do firmly believe that entertainment can and does serve as a vehicle for encouraging individuals to better themselves.

A lot of it boils down to any given individual, and whether or not they have the will to act on their impulses. In the case of somebody, for example, who watches and enjoys baseball on TV and not once actually goes out and plays it in life, I pose the following question: would that person have been better off or worse off had they never watched baseball on TV? Would the individual in question have gone out and done some other activity that would have lead to further pursuit of the higher needs, or would they have simply squandered that time in some other fashion? I believe the latter to be true more often than not; we may very well have diverging opionions on this point, but consider the outcome of this opinion for the moment. If the individual in question simply fills that time with an activity that they find less pleasurable (with no further progress towards fulfilling the higher needs,) is that individual not worse off for not having enjoyed that time? What value is there to life besides personal pleasure, if the higher needs are not pursued?

But not all culture is entertainment. I tried reading a couple of philosophy books, and that was not a pleasant experience. I doubt that the hard discipline required for achievement in sport is considered 'fun'.

I agree that not all culture is fun, but of all cultural activities you have taken place in, which would you consider contributed most to your pursuit of the higher needs: those activities you found entertaining, or those you found more tedious than pleasurable? People tend to gain more from things they enjoy doing, and if you enjoy doing something, is it not entertainment?

While it is perfectly possible to not enjoy the hard dicipline required for achievement in sport, I would also argue that those who attain the greatest success and fulfillment in sport have generally taken great pleasure in it's pursuit, even in the tedium of daily training. Entertainment can come in micro-doses, in the form of a runners' high during a 12 mile training run, performing an exceptional play in the middle of a four-hour training session, and the like. An athlete who does not take great pleasure in what they do is unlikely to truly fulfill their higher needs, even if they do attain a professional level of ability.

Self actualisation is a very hard and difficult task. Very few people are willing to do it.

Agreed, resoundingly! Herein lies the gist of my feelings towards entertainment, though: for the individual who, for whatever reason, does not or cannot pursue self-actualisation, what is there? Some turn to spirituality, which leads to a kind of external actualization of the self. Others simply exist, in a genuinely day-to-day sense. For those that simply exist (as well as those that pursue spirituality, but most importantly for those that do not,) entertainment almost becomes a need in and of itself.

For a person who has fulfilled as much of the hierarchy of needs as they are able or willing to, what reason is there to pursue living if not for the sake of enjoyment? (Here is where I see a great deal of the value of computer gaming--I admit that it does less than other forms of entertainment to increase one's fulfillment of higher needs, but it provides an excellent means of diversion for those unable, unwilling or unprepared to do so. If you're not going to pursue fulfillment, why not pursue mindless pleasure?)

"Entertainment" can give relief from our deficiencies, in the same way that going to sleep gives relief from the day, but I wouldn't give entertainment any more value than just a feel-good drug.

Entertainment can act as a catalyst for those willing to delve farther into the higher needs; for everybody else, it acts as a feel-good drug. A society without it's feel-good drug, though, is a society at risk of serious trouble.

A few wildly gifted people are capable of amazing things. For everybody else, there's entertainment. Therein lies it's value.

information wants to be expensive...nothing is so valuable as the right information at the right time.

Re:Ask Yourself a question.

[rho]

Do you think the homeless guy on the street is worried more about entertainment or his next meal? Boredom or freezing that night? How about those people in the earthquake in El Salvador right now? Boredom? Or, a more mundane example, the secretary working on a contact list for the marketing division of your favorite corporation?

No, but that homeless guy is begging for money so he can buy a bottle of Ripple. That's entertainment -- or, actually, entertainment's cousin, "escapism".

I submit that most forms of entertainment are really escapism. Escapism from a domineering family, a troubled childhood, a boring job, a pointless suburban existance... the list is endless.

An example that's closer to your grandparents than you, but still enlightening: even in the midst of the Depression in America, people were going to the movies in droves. No accident, either, that this period of time is also considered the "Golden Age" of filmmaking. When people are standing in lines to get a hunk of bread, they're still able to come up with a nickel to go watch the picture show -- if only to forget the drab life which surrounds them.

Giving back to the community?

[rkent]

Hm. This thing has firewire and USB support, you say? And it's a linux terminal, you say? That's funny; my linux terminal doesn't support USB or firewire. Well, okay, it could have some rudimentary support for USB if I installed a newer kernel, but nothing I'd call production quality.

So are these custom drivers or what? And if so, how about giving a bit back to the community that allowed Nokia to sell the device for $400 instead of $495 (cost of hardware vs. hardware + windows license)?

Re:Giving back to the community?

[Kyobu]

My IBM typewriter crashes. I'm not kidding. This is a $900 Selectric which I just got fixed up so I could fill out college apps. I like it, but the Return key broke, so it goes to the end of the line instead of the beginning.

Re:Giving back to the community?

[drix]

Huh? I really must question whatever thought process it was that led you to this conclusion. I'm writing this on my USB keyboard, and I'm going to click the "submit" button with my USB mouse. Then my computer is going to shoot packets to slashdot.org via my DLink DSB, USB-based Ethernet adapter. But alas, you've interrupted me from my previous activity, which was downloading MP3s into my Diamond Rio 500 MP3 player. Via USB.

Did I forget to mention I'm running Linux 2.4, which because of it's even minor # is by definition "production quality"? Also, did I remember to say that I've not had USB, or any other part of Linux, crash on me since the 2.0 series? Oh well, it's on the table now.

If you do not call the USB code in the current stable version of the kernel "production quality", then a.) you have not downloaded the latest kernel, and b.) your expectations are so ridiculously high that you really don't have any business running a computer anyways. Lack of drivers is one thing. Flaws in the actual basic USB code itself are an entire other issue, and here Windows has no edge over Linux as far as I can tell. I would advise you to revert back to the venerable IBM typewriter, circa 1981. Mine is still running and definitely hasn't crashed, ever, so I think after 20 years I can conclude it's bug free. For the rest of us, living with bugs in software is a necessary evil. Linux isn't bug free, but as far as USB support goes, it hasn't ever failed me yet. I'd even go so far as to say that it's "production quality".

--

Re:Giving back to the community?

[phaze3000]

2.2.18 and 2.4.0 both have excellent USB support. The issue is in the drivers for USB devices. Complaining about 'rudimentary' USB support is like complaining about 'rudimentary' PCI support because your Winmodem doesn't work.

--

Video on Demand and Hard Disk Recording

[bfree]

Ok, with a 20Gb hard disk the one question I couldn't see the answer to was what sort of video codecs does it support, are they proprietory and where's the DVD (for more buzzwords). The one area linux could use corporate support in is in Video systems (to make this work it REALLY should play whatever video files people will be grabbing from their provider or online). How can this work in the current legal quagmire or is this finally a company from outside the US saying F*ck your stupid US IP laws.... what you going do?

And as no-one else has said it yet......Hmmmmmm a Beowolf cluster of these

Re:Hardly a fair bit for Linux...

[Stephen Samuel]

It's worth noting, however, that even a crippled Linux is considered easier to use than Windows. (-:

It fits my prediction that boxes with Linux pre-installed will get non-geeks past the 'linux is hard to use' FUD. Things like set-top boxes may actually turn out to be the Linux "killer app" that people have been looking for. Between the Nokia box and hoot kits, we've got it made for introducing users to the power and freedom of Linux.
`ø,,ø!

How long....

[bfree]

before someone can post a chain from Nokia's own site to a site that describes how to circumnavigate their "Parental Controls" (or just plain hack em out)

Re:If it's Nokia, is that good?

[WillAffleck]

I just was wondering. I mean, I've got 400 shares of Nokia, but I thought I'd point out that you are paying a premium for the Nokia name on the box. Not that the premium doesn't mean it isn't a quality box, just that there might be cheaper versions ...

Re:"Underlining its commitment to open source..."

[rezn]

You shouldn't expect something back all the time. Sure, it's a ideal and plesant thought but it's not a practical one. Sticking to such thoughts will only hurt linux.

Re:Thank you, Nokia

[TheInternet]

Playing devil's adovcate...

What makes Linux cool (popularly usable) to the masses? A Web appliance whose software is mostly open source and free

How many users that make up "the masses" will actually ponder the software license as part of their purchase decision? Hackers will, sure, but the masses aren't hackers.

whose programmers are somewhat accessible/responsible to user feedback

Which programmers? Nokia or the Linux/Mozilla people?

and the ability to upgrade and update without repeatedly paying fees and buying licenses

I don't know any set top box maker that charges for software updates. You generally have to pay for the ISP, or in the case of Tivo, the programming service. But software updates are free last time I checked.

Overall, I think this is probably step in the right direction. But I think the concept needs some more focus. Right now, it sounds as if Nokia is positioning it as an "everything" box, which makes it very hard to market (except on the Home Shopping Network). You need to define boundaries of the product. You need to define who you think will buy it. And it's not exactly cheap. $400 for a 366 Celeron?

Maybe I'll be a bit less skeptical if they had some screenshots of the UI.

- Scott

--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu

Re:Web appliances...

[doctor_oktagon]

/rudeness on Oh please... Forget about world hunger, mid-eastern holy wars and homeless people, we need mass acceptence of the NET! /rudeness off

No one needed the car, the telephone, or the aeroplane either. That never stopped everyone gaining access to these facilities, and it never stopped world hunger everywhere.

If I had said that everyone needs net access then your comments might have had some weight, but I was commenting on the strategies of the companies in this "lovely" capitalist planet of ours ability to generate money.

It really does look silly to flame someone for something they never even said, you know.

As to your comments on rebated PCs, we in the UK have happily embraced cheap mobile phones based on subscribing for a year at a time to get handsets for next to nothing, so who is to say the same model will not work with net access, considering the company marketing it is one of the biggest, most well known brands in Europe whos phones we all use!

Re:Answer

[blair1q]

>> Has the hacker-friendly "appliance" finally arrived?
>
> If it's a robot girlfriend, then the answer is an unqualified "YES".

Robot girlfriend? Sure. Give us a minute to embed the mods.

But how about a web-enabled heavy petting waldo while you're waiting? You got it:

Cybersex Replaces Real Thing with Online Robots

--Blair
"Ohhh, Shania..."

Re:Firewire and USB support

[Elbereth]

Come on. This relentless Linux-can-do-and- support-everything-now! attitude gets a little annoying. I've been running Linux ever since I was old enough to drink (nigh on seven years), and I use Linux quite a lot more often than I drink. However, I remain just a little bit realistic about Linux's abilities and drawbacks.

First off, you can't just buy USB or 1394 peripherals and expect them to work under Linux. I don't care what kind of crazed advocate you are; you will never get a Logitech USB webcam to work under Linux. Believe me, I've tried. There are other, better-supported USB webcams out there, but I'd rather have mine supported. Oh well. Linux is a long way from supporting even half of the USB peripherals on the market. Look at the source code. We've got USB mice and keyboards (easy), a series of Kodak digital cameras (cool), some Palm type stuff (bleh), and a very few specific chipsets, like the ones used in the Creative Webcam series (good webcams, but not what I own).

I'm not trying to put down the USB support in Linux. I'm just saying be more realistic. Less hype and advocacy, more truth in advertising.

Windows 98 sucks in many ways, but USB support is not one of them.

p.s., I know that Logitech (may their mouse balls fall off) are the problem, not Linux programmers, but that doesn't change the fact that Logitech USB webcams aren't supported under Linux. I have the highest regard for the Linux USB programmers and the lowest regard for Logitech...

Hackers want the case

[Sloppy]

Hackers want the case. I'm not kidding.

Anyone can build a Linux box that does this stuff, but it'll be in a minitower case that looks like a personal computer. Hackers want tiny cases, unusual cases, and cases that look like stereo components. There aren't any for sale. None.

Some hackers can hack cases and work with sheet metal, I guess, but most can't because they are really just software hackers. Products like this (and the iOpener, etc) give 'em a way to get a better-looking computer without having to get their hands dirty.

---

Re:If it's Nokia, is that good?

[mirko]

Did you pay your handy ?
I just think that such cheap devices are like cable/dsl modems or satellite decoders :
They are cheap enough to be rented a way that will allow the tv company to make 10 times as much money as they paid to have it delivered to your doors.
And of course, the $400 they announced is not a public price and I guess it'll rather cost you 800$ to get one.
Better hack an old P133, no ?
--

Re:Nokia made a mistake...

[JoeShmoe]

Look at Nokia phones. They put games on those too. They have graphics that are inferior to the original GameBoy and sound is pretty much non-existant. But they are one of the most commonly mentioned features in the cellular stores I visit "Which is the one with the games?". Which should Nokia have given people? 400 phonebook entries or 250 phonebook entries and four cheapo games? I dare say Nokia made the right decision.

Look at the newere custom features like downloadable ringtones and graphics. Again, purely fluff. But again, all the teen girls love hearing their phone play "Eninem - Stan" when their boyfriend calls along with a flashing picture of Calvin & Hobbes. Again, features that please consumers.

I really have a lot of respect for Nokia when it comes to taking interesting steps. Motorola opened the door to designer cell phones with their StarTAC series but Nokia perfected it with the 8890. The newer 99xx series that opens like a glasses case to reveal a screen and keyboard is also amazing.

Now, I have been wishing and praying for a company to make a cheap TV->PC bridge for years. ReplayTV almost did it, but disabled their firewire ports due to pressue from TV studios. Nokia I dare say has virtually no connection to any media company at all (at least not until they have 3G phones that can stream video?) so all they care about is selling units...which is precisely what a hardware manufacturer should be concerned with.

If I can buy a box that I can program to record shows and the deliver them to any computer station on my home network, I will buy them, and I will buy many of them. I could care less if it's Radio Shack, Papa John's or Nokia. A ethernet port would be the ultimate but it's not a far stretch from USB and the FireWire storage options would be greatly welcomed.

- JoeShmoe

Re:Web appliances...

[doctor_oktagon]

...a solution looking for a problem

There is a problem: how to give cheap net access to the masses so that it becomes as common and easy to use as the telephone.

Sun have been raving about this for years, and is behind both their push on Java and distributed processing: they figure if they provide the infrastructure, then that is where they can make their money.

In Europe at least, Nokia is the premier mobile phone brand (though I use a Motorola v50), and the average consumer:
a) Has heard of Nokia,
b) Has trust in the company, and
c) expects a Nokia device to be easy to use

So bully for Nokia! If they can get these devices into the marketplace then they can probably persuade Joe consumer to buy one.

Re:Ask Google

[dago]

Other references :

• Oct 12, 1999
• Feb 10, 2000
• Sep 08, 2000
• Jan 05, 2001

Answer

[Anonymous Coward]

Has the hacker-friendly "appliance" finally arrived?

If it's a robot girlfriend, then the answer is an unqualified "YES".

Isn't gonna be released till the end of the year

[rho]

... so kernel hackers may be seeing some patch submissions from "nokia.com" addresses in the near future.

Thank you, Nokia

[perdida]

Thank you, Nokia.

Linux isn't unpopular because it's supposedly hard to learn! It is not cool. (Cool is a marketing term that means "my hip friends haven't found a use for it yet.")

What makes Linux cool (popularly usable) to the masses? A Web appliance whose software is mostly open source and free, whose programmers are somewhat accessible/responsible to user feedback, and the ability to upgrade and update without repeatedly paying fees and buying licenses.

The appliance's low price may be the key to introducing people to the advantages of Linux.

It's true

[Booker]

It's true - logitech cameras will not work.

It was silly for him to try, because there IS NO DRIVER For it.

That's because Logitech thinks that the bits that talk to the camera, perhaps more so than the camera itself, constitute their key to market share.

They WILL NOT release specs for the camera, so Linux folks cannot write a driver for it.

I wouldn't blame that on Linux.

---

Hardly a fair bit for Linux...

[Kynes]

This might sound silly or even a little perverse to experienced computer users, but a new industry fad is to build what could be a decent PC and then cripple it to make sure it doesn't act like one. These hobbled machines often can't download or install software, or read e-mail attachments. Instead of Windows, they run operating systems from Linux, Be or some other company. These crippled machines are called Internet appliances, and they are billed as easy for beginners to use.

Not exactly a glowing representation of Linux.... while the machine itself sounds wonderful, the article is a real piece of junk, treating it like a piece of trash "because it doesn't run windows". Funny that they mention TiVO as one of its "more superior" competitors and don't mention that it too runs Linux.
Ah, well... somebody once said that "bad coverage was better than none at all" so I guess it is a small plus but it would be nice to see a better informed article on the machine.

Specs from the PDF

[HerrNewton]

Specs from the PDF

Software

• Linux Operating System
• Mozilla open source browser
• DVB System running on separate RTOS
• Nokia Navi (TM)bars Lite (user Interface)
• HTML 4.0,CSS1,HTTP1.1,and JavaScript 1.5 compliant
• Netscape compatible plug-ins
• Support for GIF,JPEG,PNG,MIDI,Macromedia Flash and PDF
• E-mail client:SMTP,POP3,IMAP4,NNTP protocols.
• Chat support
• IP over MPEG (DVB standard)
• IP Multicast and Unicast
• SSL and TLS security protocols
• 2D and 3D residential and network games
• IR and USB game pads support
• Upgradeable software
• Conditional Access
• DVB,ATVEF and MHP Compliant
• Parental Control
• Support for USB-devices,e.g.printers
• Support for 1394-devices,e.g.Digital Video cameras

Hardware

• Intel Celeron ®366 Mhz CPU or faster
• 20 GB Hard Disk or more
• Full MPEG2 /DVB compatible engine
• Integrated V.90 POTS modem
• Nokia designed RC

Memory

• 32-64 MB system memory (SDRAM)
• 4 MB SDRAM for video and system memory (DVB subsystem)
• 1+1 MB Flash memory for boot loader and DVB system
• Graphics and Video Processing
• Accelerated 3D graphics
• Graphics and video stream mixing
• Per Pixel Alpha Blending
• Special Effects
• Programmable 2D scaling (1:64 arbitrary)
• Advanced flicker filtering
• Macrovision 7 compliant
• PAL and NTSC

Network Interfaces

• 2x (QPSK/QAM/OFDM)DVB front-end tuner
• Digital satellite,cable,and terrestrial transmissions
• ISDN,ADSL,Ethernet and Cable modem

Audio/Video Ouput Interfaces

• Multi-standard connectors supporting composite video,
• S-video or RGB
• SCART signals for TV set and VCR
• 2x RCA connectors (analogue audio L/R)
• 1x S/PDIF coaxial digital audio output

External Interfaces

• 2x ISO 7816-3 smart card readers (for conditional
• access and e-commerce)
• 1x PCMCIA connector (WLAN,GPRS)
• 2x USB connectors
• 2x IEEE 1394 connectors
• 1x RJ11 telephone connector
• 1x IR receiver (supporting RC-MM protocol)
• 1x RJ45 Ethernet interface (10/100 Baset)
• 1x Common interface port

Content Protection

• Secure mechanism,using triple DES encryption /decryption

Digital Video Recording (DVR)

• Up to 30 hours of data storing capacity

Power Supply

• Custom switch mode power consumption
• Standby approx.5W

Dimensions

• Width:262 mm
• Height:104 mm
• Depth:314 mm

Environmental Conditions

• Operating temperature:+5 C to +40 C
• Storage temperature:-40 C to +65 C
• Humidity:-25 to 90%rel.humidity

----

Re:Specs from the PDF

[doctor_oktagon]

I wonder if it is one of those Celerons with like 2 bits of Cache?

Nah: Intel stopped making those years ago. The first of the new breed with 128Kb cache was the 300A ... the overclockers friend ;-)

All celerons since then have been as fast as their P2/3 equivalents (excepting 100MHz FSB).

Re:Not all that great.

[slim]

Here's what I'd expect to see in order for it to be a better buy than a general purpose PC

• Low cost - $400 seems pretty good to me
  
• Quiet operation - can't see how they're going to run an Intel chip with no fan, but if I'm going to watch movies with this thing in my room, I want it to be as quiet as possible -- ideally silent
  
• Sofa-friendly user interface. I'm certain Nokia will develop a terrific remote-centric UI for this thing. After all the UI on their phones is great. Of course you'd need a keyboard for email and (to an extent) Web browsing.Of course, an enterprising team of Open Source hackers could come up with something suitable given the inclination.
  
• lack of hassle -- I love to tinker with computers, but that's not what this is for. One would expect to get this thing home at lunchtime, and have it set to record the 10 o' clock movie before going to the pub that evening.
  

--

Re:Web appliances...

[slim]

An answer to a question no one asked.


Hmmm.

"There seems to be all sorts of stuff on this World-Wide Web thing, but I can't afford a PC, what should I do?"

"I want to email my son but I don't want to learn to use one of those complicated computers. Isn't there an easier way?"

"Society is in danger of splitting into Information haves and have-nots, what can be done to lower the price of admission?"

"My e-retail site's sales have reached a plateau. If only there was a way for the pool of potential customers to grow"

"Damn, I've got to stay late at work and I'm going to miss Brookside. If only I could telnet my VCR from work and tell it to record it."

Need any more? I could do this all day.
--

Not all that great.

[sommere]

All right. This may sound great, but from what I have read, this is basically a linux pc in a neat box. If you want a linux PC designed for video related stuff in a neat box, sure buy one. If you don't care about the neat box and possibly the video capabilties, then I would guess you will be able to find nicer linux hardware solutions elsewhere.

Might make a nice e-mail station though. Just install Althea and you're good to go.

----
For a stable GTK IMAP client check out http://althea.sourceforge.net

Nokia made a mistake...

[Colin Winters]

By putting linux on it. Hackers aren't going to be buying these systems. Mom and Dad are going to get one for little Johnny. And what happens when little Johnny can't play his games? There's no way this product will sell as an entertainment platform-not with linux instead of Win98, and not with low end hardware, because the latest/greatest games won't work. This is probably just vaporware, and Nokia hopefully won't screw themselves out of a lot of R&D costs by trying to sell this.

Colin Winters

Re:Nokia made a mistake...

[Kynes]

Games are a secondary idea for this box... Why would you possibly buy this if your primary focus was gamming when you could get an X-Box/ Dreamcast/PS2 for less money? This is something designed for much different pusposes (home entertainment - adding web access, digital recording/playback, and mp3 capabilities to your tv).
It's very possible that hackers will be buying the system to play with it... its also likely that moam and pop kind of deals will buy it to help wrap up a couple of devices into one. Nobody in their right mind willl look to this as a real "gaming machine", the games are only mentioned as a side benifit.

The Implications

[Anonymous Coward]

1. More support for Linux USB devices across the board if this grill, er applicance gets popular.
2. People will start to trust Linux. I think that is one of the main things holding Linux back.
3. More people in Linux users groups.
4. They may use this to push HDTV,
5. Finally we will be able to trade our favorite sitcom episodes.
6. Create jobs for Linux Gurus.

Game Developers

[perdida]

Nokia needs game developers for the Media Terminal.

As I posted earlier, for Linux to benefit more people need to use it. This box is yet another option for to find a useful, widely popular application for Linux.

In other words, a reason for someone who isn't necessarily a "geek" to get a Linux box.

I linked this PDF because one way to promote the widespread use of the thing is to make games for it.

Firewire

[Booker]

USB is actually pretty good, and 1394 is there too:

http://linux1394.sourceforge.net/

---

Nokia has a history... ...a flattering one

[soup]

Nokia's FireWalls (which use CheckPoint's FireWall-1) are Linux based.

My office mate (who is an example of how much brain damage chemotherapy causes since he's comfortable sharing an office with me) was quite startled the first time he lit up one of these boxes. He knew I was a Linux geek so he dragged me into it (he's a networking guru for switches and stuff; firewalls is a recent mission for him).

Nokia's stuff has been cute but I was expecting the delivery of our firewalls to include the covers (like the phones have) so we can doctor their looks...