Slashdot Mirror
Security Of Windows/Office XP Activation Code?
merodach asks: "In pondering the next versions of Windows and Office (XP), the wonderful save-us-from-ourselves product activation, and MS's repeated public blunders with security I began to wonder about the security around the activation code, itself. Specifically, I was wondering how it would impact my job as an IT Consultant with regards to Melissa-type viruses and trojans which might: surreptitiously use the transmission code to send sensitive info to competitors/enemies of my customer; and (assuming that the software checks this periodically) change the activation info and damage/destroy the ability to repair that info (in short order rendering an entire network useless). As I don't have access to the beta versions or the code I was wondering if anybody in the Slashdot community would be able to list or explain what, if any, precautions are being taken on this." As it happens, TechRepublic has an article about this very subject. Thanks to Deecyl for the link.
The point is (according to a news.com article) that Microsoft is trying to crack down on casual copying, such as borrowing a friend's (legal) copy and installing it on your machine, or using one copy for an entire business. These are the people that won't be downloading cracks for the most part, because once you do that it makes people think about the fact that (according to Microsoft et al) they're now stealing. Just borrowing someone's cd kinda helps people get over that, because they're making no effort to bypass any security.
Amen. I have used windows since the 2.x days and played with Linux since the pre 1.0 kernals. This XP authentication stuff is the final straw. I am going to keep a small Win98 or ME partition around to play my existing games but Linux will be my primary OS from now on. Since I am a programmer for a mega-corporation I will still have to use the Microsoft stuff at work but I am not about to spend another dime of MY OWN money on Microsoft development tools or OSes if they actually deploy this. By the way ALL of my software is legit. But I will not tolerate this arrogance from Microsoft.
That's a great plan. Yeah.
We're sorry, Microsoft(tm) Windows(R) XP requires that you have a broadband connection to the Internet. Please replace your modem with a cable modem(*), DSL service(**), or satellite network connection(***).
(*) Note: Service not available in all areas
(**) Note: Service not available in all areas
(***) Note: Service not available in all areas
There may still be hope. Maybe they'll find a way to let WebTV users install it.
Or, they will find some other cheap or free software to do what they want.
You can't assume that people will continue behaving the same when the conditions change. More likely, they will change their behaviour, into a more convenient / inexpensive pattern.
...phil
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Someone asks a question about the security of XP. Everyone replies about each and every aspect of XP except security issues! Didn't we do the XP sucks threads before?
Okay, back to the issue at hand:
I'm pretty sure that the security won't be much different than that of previous Microsoft products or any other software product in general.
Yes, there will be bugs and problems with security. Microsoft has probably paid more attention to problems than they used to, just like they did with Windows 2000, but that only partially helps. Software releases have bugs. Period.
If it is a minor one, it might be fixed. If it's regular, it will be fixed some day. If it's big, it will be fixed and rather soon. If it's huge and does what you fear/describe, it will be fixed ASAP.
There are not so many precautions you can take, really, since no software company holds itself liable for any of its products. The best thing you can do to avoid the risk is simply by not using it.
If for whatever reason you are forced to use it or think the benefits outweigh the risks, you might want to look into some sort of insurance contract in case things go very very wrong.
I am sure insurance companies will insure you against horrible software plagues, they seem to insure almost anything including not getting any snow or sun on respectivily winter and summer holidays.
While I'm at it, does anyone know how to get to the article wihtout a browser blessed by the priests of eye-candy that run their site? Lynx is taken to a redirect page, from which you can only proceed to the main page . . .
or is there even anything worth reading?
awk
No, I mean my MSDN copy. I am not a corporate mega-user, I'm a developer.
1. If corporations don't have to worry about this what stops me from getting my "big corp" sysadmin buddie to lend me a copy of there CD.
This is what caught me too. Fine, I'll use my MSDN copy and be free of this mess, but how many times have we heard about companies having more installations that licenses (ask that city in Virginia).
This won't help that at all.
1 year from now on alt.binaries.cd.images:
REQ: plz post MSDN version of WindowsXP - I am 3l337!!!
Sounds like another push for OSX and Linux - no hassle computing (at least in that area!)
Siemens uses the 'key' in the MBR trick for its PLC dev. software... virus scanners used to kill it all the time.
I know about this. And Allen Bradley is boneheaded about their software too. This makes their PLC's often out of reach on nightshift from debugging when the person who has the key, dongle, whatever is not reachable. Its a joy to watch manufacturing lines churn out thousands of pounds worth of scrap because a software key can't be had until morning. In my opinion, this makes the lesser known vendors who sell non-proprietary PLC's much more attractive.
What is so disgusting, is that people are threatening to sue MS over defective software that hasn't even shipped yet, and the customer is buying the software knowing of the risk ahead of time.
Sure I know about it, but that doesn't mean I don't have to use it. You see, I work at a large manufacturing plant. Large. When software has a quirk and decides to halt, the manufacturing process halts. With plastic extrusion, any stoppage of the process can be quantitized in terms of several thousands of dollars in scrap per event, not to mention the burden downtime. When NT just decides to halt the entire computer, I become acutely aware of how serious a problem is.
I don't purchase proprietary software and its licenses. I never will. But there are people unknown to me that I work with who do. The COO even backed me about my complaint with shitty software, but he's powerless to do anything about it. Politics at work just seem to go with whatever products are marketed the strongest. Its sick, but its what I have to deal with daily.
There is no need for MS to bother with this. They can still sue the crap out of anyone who pirates the software in most jurisdictions, yet there doesn't have to be a license or serial number at all in distributing it.
A strongly implied part of the copyright contract is that works have to be useful. A book that's so heavily encrypted as to be unreadable has not effectively been published, and will not enrich the public domain when it enters it. MS can leave the door wide open, and not lose a shred of their legal shield. Indeed, they're granted that shield on the condition that they leave the door open. Now if only Congress or the courts would revoke copyrights from publishers who seem to want to grant and enforce them themselves. They'd be welcome to try, but would get no help from Uncle Sam.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
If it can be activate over the phone, then what stops someone from reverse-engineering the system and writing a little program that generates asctivation codes, I'm not 100% up on this, but im 90% sure that it's already been done. In this case its actually less of a hassle to install a pirated version than a licensed one.
Another way that companies use is to encode
with the serial number of drive C:
Lattice is one.
Borland seems to be doing something like
that for the Delphi try out.
If Microsoft use this then when you format
the drive it would be kind of hard to get
the same code.
Microsoft has an 800-number for people to call and speak with someone to get the activation code.
Happens all the time - when you buy something at the store, your paying for all the shoplifted items also; i.e., the cost of theft is spread over and paid for by all the legit customers.
<rant>
Of course, it would be much better to have a friggin' CHOICE of which store to shop at so we could avoid those with over 25% theft rate - but nooooooooooooo, all those little office desktop bozo's just HAVE to love their little pc pope and do everything he wants, however po'd the it dept gets...
</rant>
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
In other words, Microsoft is implementing the exact strategy of the MPAA's CSS encryption.
Even if someone were to figure out how to circumvent the activation system, what are the odds that the hack will find its way onto the web?
Here's a simple approach. Cut deals with all of the hardware manufacturers so that they are forced to purchase a copy of Windows for each machine they sell, whether or not the user wants it. This way, Microsoft will receive automatic license payments on probably 95% of all PCs manufactured, leaving only the 5% or less of PCs that are built from scratch vulnerable to Windows piracy.
Oh wait
The world really needs fewer sites like that.
Yes, but you can see where this is going: Licence Servers for corporate Office use.
In fact, one of MS's propaganda pieces for ActiveDirectory specifically mentions licence management as a possible application. I think the only thing holding them back is the fact that AD hasn't been widely deployed yet (or ever?).
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I think slashweenies have missed the security aspect of this thread. The question posed is as valid with Windows 2000 as with XP. The question is about virii breaking the registration codes your CP software needs in order to keep working. I would assume that your XP software would be able to rescan your system and take your reg code to generate the same authorization code as it first generated. A one way function is a one way function. Oh well.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
You're right, but by then we'll have come full circle -- back to the IBM Profs-type mainframe productivity environment...
The rumor mill has it that the Select version of XP will be register-free, to help companies that do imaging and the like. To my eyes these look like the non-Select version of the same install CD. My question is, what's to prevent someone from comparing a select and non-select XP CD and finding the N files that are different (presumably they will largely be the same) and producing either a binary patch set or just distributing those files?
Somebody is responsible for the choice to use MS software. Yes, it's probably not the user himself, but it was someone, and that person should be held accountable for the reckless and irresponsible thing that they did.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
What is so disgusting, is that people are threatening to sue MS over defective software that hasn't even shipped yet, and the customer is buying the software knowing of the risk ahead of time.
Anyone who knows the risk before purchasing, shouldn't be allowed to sue. This R. Kinner sounds like a seriously irresponsible asshole.
It's like if I sued the maker of these cyanide tabl--Arrr.... *thud*
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
There's going to be different versions of XP out; they'll be XP Home, XP Professional, XP Server, and XP Advanced Server. Only the Home edition will *always* require activation. For Select Customers, MSDN users, and others, it will not require communication to MS to install/activate.
It's a little silly and shows some of the current attitudes (I swear this isn't a troll) of Slashdotters to rant this much. So, I'd like to ask these questions-
a.) If an Open Source activist is allowed to get upset and take legal action when someone doesn't follow their license, then why can't MS ensure people follow their license? Is MS' somehow less valid because it isn't popular? If one is such an advocate of a particlar business model, that person should have at least civic respect for another license.
b.) An argument could be made that OSS is pushing the ASP movement. More specifically, when a free alternative is competing with Microsoft, MS can either try to take a larger market share or simply make more money off the market share they already have. If all closed-source apps went away, the drive of the IT market would be on services. No longer could a company rely on selling their software for a year before releasing a new version. Instead, they might find more money in renting the use of their apps.
This second point is really kind of a theory, and I am interested to hear what others think.)
NP
Apparently TechRepublic feels that "looking cool" is the most important thing. It's more important to them that their website is "kewl," rather than having me read it using my browser of choice. (I did see the link dumping on my browser, but letting me in the site, so don't say it. The redirect is irritating, and makes me not want to read anything on their site.)
Anyone have a mirror that is not designed to piss non-Microserfs off?
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
The fuss isn't about Microsoft stopping people from pirating Microsoft software. The fuss is about this being the "thin edge of the wedge".
First, you have to "activate" your (legitimately purchased) licence in order to finish installing it on your machine. You say, "Okay... it doesn't hurt to do that."
Then, you get the .NET equivalent of Internet Explorer. This product "suggests" that you check the Microsoft Windows Update page every week. You say "Okay... sounds sensible to me."
After that, you get the latest version of IE.NET. Due to increased exploits involving unpatched Windows(tm) installations, this product forces you to use Microsoft Windows Update, otherwise you can't continue running Windows(tm). You say "Dammit! I just wanted to browse the web for a couple of minutes.".
Then when that update is done, you open Word.NET. It informs you that you have to connect to the Microsoft Product Activation site to check your licence for this week. You say "This is getting a little annoying."
On connecting to the Microsoft Product Activation site, Word.NET informs you that Microsoft Corp has changed the licencing model for Word.NET: now you have to pay $5/month to keep using Word.NET.
All the fuss is about nipping this in the bud.
Imagine if the USS Yorktown was running on Windows XP? In the middle of an intense Naval battle, the sonar system pops up a dialog box, "Sorry, your Sonar Tracking System Software licence has expired. Please connect to the Microsoft Product Activation site to up date your licence. This should only take a few minutes. [Renew Licence] [Stop Using STSS]"
I am personally of the opinion that "causal copying" is somewhat beneficial to commercial software developers - PHBs get exposure to new products at home (the copy of Microsoft Project 2000 that they borrowed from their Wife's friend's husband), and go back to work thinking, "Gee, that was cool". Two months later, that company has bought Microsoft Project 2000 and Microsoft Project Central (and its supporting software).
Basically, Windows XP will probably do stuff like check the processor you're using, serial or model numbers from your hard drives, what PCI or (shudder) ISA cards are installed, BIOS manufacturer and version number, etc. From this it'll make a "fingerprint", which gets sent off to Microsoft.
Microsoft then sends back an "activation code" - as long as you write this down somewhere, you'll be fine.
However, Microsoft doesn't define how much of your machine has to stay the same when you do an upgrade. Does my machine need a new activation code when I:
According to Microsoft's Product Activation Fact Sheet:
The thing that bugs me is - how much is "extensively"? Why is that sentence written to be intentionally vague? My guess is that Microsoft is hoping to keep Product Activation secure through obscurity. If you don't know how it works, you can't go breaking it, right?
When you activate your Microsoft products, your registration key will obviously be stored on some Microsoft license server.
cpeterso
I think the activation code will only make pirate CDs even more appealing to most potential customers. After all why pay good money for something you don't own and the company keeps reminding of just that, when you can have a CD that costs as litle as 1/100 of that and gives you no unnecessary hassle when installing (other than what we're used to expect from Windows...). It's the same with game CDs that make you use a lot of HD space and STILL demand the original CD in the drive!!!
And remenber. Most of the world doesn't give a f*** about the DMCA
Well, hopefully with the increasing demand for something reasonably priced for him to use, the OSS community will port some of free word processing programs over to winblowz.
::grin::).
Check out OpenOffice (formerly Star Office). They treat Win32 as a primary platform (along with Solaris and Linux) and its starting to look preaty spiffy and stable. Still a bit left to do (ie. Its still beta, so its more stable than MS Office, but doesn't have all the neat templates yet
Once its hit General Availability, I'm sure people are going to work on/improve the MS Office compatability filters, and when Joe-Six-Pack needs to get his home office suite, he'll either borrow a CD from his "Techie Friend" (amazing how much this happens), or he'll shell over a VASTLY smaller number of $$ for a copy of OpenOffice on the retail stores... put out but Sun or someone else.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
"Please wait while Helix GNOME update downloads a list of updates available for your system. This is done without any data being sent to Helix Code, Inc."
"oh-ok - I dont mind then..."
Did YOU read the source code? No? Then I guess you "don't mind then" if the Update Agent sends your email/passwords to Helix/Ximian.
I am not a huge fan of Microsoft either, but the silly SlaphDash.org knee-jerk "Micro$oft suxors" reaction to any mention of them is just moronic.
A signature is made from your hardware (various serial numbers etc) and this is what is used. If you have registered XP, then you reinstall on the SAME hardware, then your signature will be the same. This signature is sent during the online activation in which case it would have been already recorded from the first time.
So, it's not stored anywhere, it's simply the same code generated each time you install. Of course, if you replace your motherboard or hard drive you may have to reactivate.
Um, No.
I'm on the beta for this, and I lurk the private MS newsgroups. They started a newsgroup just to discuss Product Activation once the flamewars spread into the other groups, drowning out the other discussions. In that newsgroup, 99.995% of the posts are, if anything, more vitriolic and staunchly opposed to the idea of product activiation than the posts I have read here...
So naturally, once MS shipped code that really needed to be activated, the first thing most folks did was try and figure out what hardware changes trigger the system activation. It turns out to be more complex than just the MAC address, rather it works off of a combination of some motherboard identification, hard drive ID, and the Mac address. (I would bet that if you have a CPU with a GUID, then it uses that, too.) You can actually change out a lot of this stuff and not have the reactivation trigger.
Besides that, apparently (I read this over at the Register) the cracks are painfully easy to implement, so it's really not going to solve the problem.
If this becomes true, the installed Windows and Office base will most likley get smaller and older (people wont upgrade), thus leaving a bigger opening to Linux and Linux software in the home/desktop market.
;-)
The mere threat will contribute to this as well.
When the snowball starts to roll...
Rather than look at this from the one-time activation viewpoint, look at it from the perspective of what Microsoft wants to do with .Net... That is, since they are going to the subscription model for Office, Windows, etc. then it makes sense why they are creating a unique 'fingerprint' of your system. What better way to track the software you are renting from them?
.Net is rolled out.
So, I suggest that Microsoft does not care whether or not the XP scheme is cracked. They just want to get unique fingerprints for all these systems on file for when
The referenced article doesn't really answer it except to say that customers who buy a site license would probably not have to worry about this feature.
The bigger question really is: Why does Microsoft think it's okay to declare war on individual users? By their own admission their biggest customers will be left alone. Individuals, on the other hand, who still go out and buy their licenses on a regular basis, like me for instance, are going to be put out in a big way over this issue. Basically it boils down to: I want to install Windows but I don't have a modem hooked up yet so I can't activate Windows to make it work.
From my perspective of this, the moment Microsoft tries to sell me something that requires activation, I'm out of here. I've gone through this with Rational Rose 2000 addition and I know that both KDE and Gnome are getting good enough for my wife and kids to use. If they implement this feature then I have bought my last copy of Windows.
Anyway, the'll never do it because most customer's are going to be so pissed off it'd be like shooting themselves in the feet.
Beware the wood elf!!!
I agree, this can only be bad for microsoft. They have based their whole corporate stratagy on market share and actually have benefitted from a certain leve of piracy. Each time someone pirated a copy in the past from a friend they contributed to the demise of OS/2 and MACOS and the rise of windows. Sure they didn't pay for Windows but they still supported the platform by buying other software that only worked on Windows.
I guess that they (MS) think that they've got everone hooked now and that they can safely tighten things and collect their money now.
This just seems like a perfect oportunity for GNU/Linux to start building market share. As it gets harder to get Windows it will get easier to chose Linux. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years.
The screen goes on about Techrepublic being 'the IT professional's source for many exciting articles...' and more marketing-drivel, finally trying to coax me into upgrading:
Why not upgrade to a more current Web browser?
You'll be glad you did.
...followed by the usual Download Microsoft Internet Explorer Now! command.
Hm, I'm running a freshly compiled version of Mozilla. Maybe they don't like my Junkbuster proxy?
Anyway, why don't they stop nagging me, and let me decide what browser to use, and let me decide whether their site is 'exciting'? If it is, I'll come again, and I'll spread the word. If it isn't, no matter how often they use those e* words I won't be back.
--frank[at]unternet.org
As long as you don't change your network card while you're reinstalling
What if I do? What if I don't have a NIC at all - a simple workstation with a local printer and Whistler+Office but no NIC would still be a complete system (unreliability of MS software notwithstanding for sake of argument).
Read the quote again, specifically The activation will be automatic.
Call me stoopid, but I can't see how this would work without Office storing the code on the HDD somewhere.
From the TechRepublic article:
Every time you reinstall Windows, you'll need a new code.
R. Kinner is already prepared to join a class action lawsuit against Microsoft: "If I, as a home user, am forced over the course of a year to reinstall XP five times, and MS refuses me a sixth code, they are the ones breaking the commerce contract that was begun when I purchased the software." Call off the lawyers! You can reinstall Windows or Office XP an unlimited number of times on the same hardware. The activation will be automatic.
This has to be bullshit. If I reformat and reinstall, how could Office possibly know that I already have an activation code? Where, exactly, is Office storing the activation code? On the hard drive I just formatted?
Ditto if I upgrade the hard drive. Am I missing something here?
MIS folks shouldn't be installing the retail release of XP (Windows or Office) on "hundreds or thousands of PCs at once". Look into Select or Open licensing.
So when did these mean that you get a different piece of software as opposed to a different kind of certificate saying you can use the software?
IMHO Microsoft isn't likely to want to make an activation free "corporate" version of the software since once the pirates get their hands on that them the who idea of using the method to stop piracy goes out the window...
Major problem - if you're an MIS tech suddenly faced with upgrading hundreds or thousands of PCs at once, this activation thingy is another thing that can go wrong. Anything that makes MIS's job harder is one less thing they'll be inclined to order.
One reason for the sucky sales of Win2000 - out-of-the-box, it doesn't play well with existing NT installations, so lots of corporate and government MIS departments haven't upgraded yet. This is MS's main revenue stream, the one which pulls in the big bucks. Doesn't matter if the MIS head is a Microserf or not, if the upgrade causes more lost revenues in terms of downtime and tech support than benefits, it's not gonna happen. And yeah, there are a lot of stereotypical PHBs out there, but if an upgrade causes a company to lose actual $$$, as opposed to the "benefits" and "increased productivity" of the upgrade (especially those that have been burned by the Win9x -> Win2k upgrade) even a die-hard non-tech PHB is going to take a second look before signing those purchase orders.
1) Have you actually used a Select or Open license? Do you know how much of a bear it is to actually deploy across an enterprise? (i.e. vastly different from documentation, registry screwups, missing keys etc).
And the Educational versions of above licenses is exactly the same as the retail/OEM version. No additional admin tools, etc...
2) I'm just saying MIS departments who've been burned by the problems experienced with Win2k would be leery of upgrading to a version with an added "activation" feature which can introduce yet another point of installation failure. (especially for those of us outside the US with intermittent/unreliable Internet links).
Once you do this, once you do that, read the HOWTO, and you can play games. You are seriously overestimating the ability of the average PC luser. All the PC luser knows how to do is locate setup.exe, and double click on it. And that's if the CD isn't set up to autorun when you stick it in the drive. Anything that's more complicated than that isn't going to fly out of the ground effect of the hobbyists and hackers.
If linux is ever going to take over the home user's desktop, it's going to have to change - radically. And if that happens, linux won't be as interesting as it is now for the people who are currently pushing it forward.
Don't get me wrong, I think linux is great - as a server. Configuring dns is a four line modification to the config file. Configuring exim beats the pants off of configuring sendmail. An edit here, and edit there and you're all good. It certainly has come a long way since I last played with it in the early '90s, but it has a long long way to go.
Increases in sales won't actually mean greater revenue, just greater gross profits. The revenue would be offset by the development and maintainence costs of the registration system. Small increases in sales could mean that MS would be losing money...
Did I say that right? I sucked at econ...
All glory to the hypno-toad!
Unfortunately, until Joe Sixpack can install Linux and the OSS application without having to grok "partition", "glibc", and what-not, he's gonna say "fuck this, next time I'm buying a Dell(tm) because it's got Intel Inside(tm) and comes with WindowsXP(tm) and WindowsXP(tm) comes with a word processor built-in!"
Don't forget - Joe Sixpack doesn't buy an OS and applications - he doesn't even buy an Athlon/Duron/PIII. He buys a "Dell" or a "Compaq", and has no idea that he's even paying $100ish for the 'doze license and other "bundled" software on it.
Why can't I just set the clock on my computer to the year 9 billion, install XP, and then fix my clock?
If the software detects that the clock is set to a time earlier than it was previously, this is a good indication that something funny is going on and it can refuse to run, some time-limited demos do this.
After you've installed XP you have like 2 weeks to "activate" it. You'll start getting notices. If you don't activate it within the two weeks the app and OS (Whistler does this too) stops working.
To activate it the software connects to a Microsoft server and verifies your key hasn't been used by 20 other pirates.
I would make perfect sense that MS has installed a backdoor which leaks information slowly. I mean, they'd have the ultimate spying tool ever...
I would never use Windows or any closed source product to handle sensitive information, activation code or not.
I've got a select agreement with Microsoft where I work, and so I'll be getting CDs with no activation code required. So will lots and lots of other users, and one of them will post the ISOs somewhere (I won't - I've too much self-respect ;-)
However, the net effect will be lots of users with Office/Windows XP in their workplaces, and all new PCs being bundled with Windows XP at least. Home users will upgrade to be compatible with their workplace, but it's the new PCs that will drive sales. Windows XP will be the only OS available from OEMs.
Alister
As strange as it may seem, (to myself included) I have realised that I don't have ANY pirated software on my computer. Even my OS (Windows ME, save the flames for later) is legit, and I have my own CD key to prove it. Therefore, if WindowsXP is as good as they claim, then I think that I would be more then willing to pay $100 for it. I don't care if it needs to be activated; if it's legal, who the hell cares? It's not an invasion of privacy, it is a company trying to stop the massive flood of pirated versions of their software.
I don't see what all the fuss is about, honestly.
------------
CitizenC
Yes, but by cracking it and disabling the auto-format-my-hard-drive functionality, arent you breaking the UCITA?
Later...
KangarooBox - We make IT simple!
Oooh, now you've given the 1337 5kr1P7 K1dd135 something useful to do!
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
That was Borland's No Nonsense License Agreement.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
It's competely unreasonable to say that each instance of piracy that is prevented leads to a sale. Given how widespread piracy is, that money that Microsoft and the RIAA claim as 'losses' simply does not exist.
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
I don't honestly think this activation code will last long. Between the activation data being corrupted, destroyed (by accident, virus, etc), and whatnot, I think Microsoft will eventually be FORCED to pull the code in order for it's customers to have an easier time of it all.
That and it'll be cracked soon enough after release that the pirates can have their way with it anyways, rendering the whole grand plan by Microsoft to stop piracy useless.
yeah - that is pretty facist.
All your event are belong to us.
Now when I ask for my refund on windows, won't it be easy to verify that I've never used that installation and am entitled to the refund? Or perhaps it's already activated by the OEM when they installed windows.
All your event are belong to us.
Games. That's it. People want to play games, and they want to play good games, and they want to do it easily.
Let's face it, folks: X sucks. It's terrible for gaming. Linux/BSD/whatever needs a replacement for X for gaming purposes before gaming companies will start developing for it in earnest.
+++ATH0
So what happens to a legitimate owner when 20 odd pirates steal his activation code? If the MS servers are registering multiple users and shut down that code, what happens to the legitimate user?
"I'll take the red pill. No! Blue! AAAaaaahhhhhhhhh"
- Monty Python meets the Matrix
"Today, product activation is a simple process that guarantees user privacy and curbs the negative impact of software piracy. Many users have seen the benefits of software activation, such as assurance that the product will include user manuals, product identifications, certificates of authenticity and complete software code. "
Hrm... those manuals sure are nice. I'm glad I registered my software... err.. yah. Also, don't you hate it when someone only burns you half of that office CD? Hrm...
-Chris
The hardware fingerprint is generally the MAC of the primary ethernet card (in a system with ethernet). So if you change your primary network card, the fingerprint changes.
This can be a major problem on laptops. My laptop did not come with onboard ethernet, and I switch out the PCMCIA ethernet card on a regular basis, plus each of my docking stations has an ethernet interface with it's own unique MAC.
It's often very easy to change the MAC on an ethernet card, but if you have two machines on the same network segment with the same MAC, strange things happen.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
Of course they have. It now contains its own miniature modem that tracks all of your software and internet usage. Didn't you see the expose on Lone Gunmen?
Seriously though, W2K already gets pissed off if you dare try to use its Restore CD (not an Install CD any more, and not your CD at all) on anything but the exact machine you bought. Why would Whistler do any less?
heh, this 'crack' was for an earlier version of the XP beta that didn't even have the activation code turned on yet
for WinXP it is NOT based *just* on your mac address, they look at pretty much all your hardware and fingerprint the whole system based on everything you have in there. I don't know what gave you this idea.
Funny thing is, the OS may enable and disable the PIII PID at will...
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
Intel disabled the Processor ID as default, and I believe it is not in P4. (Am I right there?)
Anyways, the PIII PID is probably the least-used feature on any CPU (even NOPs gets used alot), so I bet Intel lost on this overall.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
>Unfortunately, until Joe Sixpack can install Linux and the OSS application without having to grok "partition", "glibc", and what-not, he's gonna say "fuck this, next time I'm buying a Dell(tm) because it's got Intel Inside(tm) and comes with WindowsXP(tm) and WindowsXP(tm) comes with a word processor built-in!" You missed the point the programs being discussed, such as Star Office, Don't need linux, they run right on that "dell or compaq" with windows..... or did you assume all free software was linux only? Half of the programs I run are freeware Win32 programs I never had to pay a dime for. aka VNC instead of PCAnywere, StarOffice instead of MS Office.....
iRepairIT - iPhone, Mac, & PC Repair
Ironic that microsoft is using a MAC (which btw doesnt even require a serial to run, since you have to buy apple hardware.)
- There is an actual difference in the software used to preinstall Windows on your system between "Mom & Pops" and the big OEMS. The big OEMs use a tool called "OPK", while the smaller ones are limited to something called "DSP". With the NT variants, the major difference is the license.
- Which brings me to:
- It's the OEMs that wanted the recovery CD. There used to be a "windows companion" CD, which was the entire Windows install minus the setup program. An SVP for PackardBell (may it rest in piece, please) once said to me that he is forced to ship the companion CD's, and for he cares, he would glue it to the bottom of the computer.
The OEMs want to give you the recovery CD, because it saves them a fortune in support. Blame them, not MS (in this particular case).You're supposed to be able to phone MS, tell them your ID (apparently derrived from various hardware stuff) and then get a 20 digit number to enter as your activation key if you haven't got a internet-connection.
;-)
If I've not missunderstod the concept, you have to get a *new* key *every* time you change your hardware in a fashion that alters this ID.
Great fun for administrators. =-)
We're running ghost to install new machines or repair a corrupt installation.
Wonder how they're planning to solve stuff like that.
Or maybe they'll do what they usually do.
Say: "It's not a microsoft propriertary standard, so it's not supported by our OS"
I've also heard that there's a bug in Active Directory. It was found last spring and MS is working on a patch, but to use the patch you'll have to uppgrade your servers from 2000.
(It seems like Win2000 allready is legacy and not supported anymore
/.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
Long ago when I first graduated from college I worked for an Alpha Micro dealer. Alpha Micros were really cool little mini-computers that had a couple of unique qualities. One was that all software was distributed on VHS video tape. The second was that each Alpha motherboard had a unique ID chip. Any time new software was installed, we ran a programme that gave us a hash, called the software provider, read them the hash, and they gave us an unlocking code. This was an interesting copy protection system and worked quite well until one of the security chips went bad. Then, regardless of how many backups were available, it meant hours of phone calls to software providers to get new unlocking codes.
So, I'm not sure how MS is going to do their coding system, but I can guarantee that it will cause IT support people no end of headaches.
Stand Fast,
Stand Fast,
tjg.
The main reason for introduction of the activation code, is to reduce the amount of illigal copies. Unfortunately for Microsoft, software crackers are usually very intelligent people that are challenged by such a nice new copy-protection schema. Therefore, I estimate that a crack for this new protection will be released within a week after the introduction of the new XP software
/. somewhere) stole some snippets of code that were (coincidentally??) the ones dealing with the new activation codes. If that is true, than the crack can be released before the product ;-)
A rumor I heard (but I can't validate it, it remains a rumor) is that the guy who cracked a microsoft machine and had access to their network for about 2 weeks (article should be on
--
--
If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
I'm using IE5 right now, too. However, I usually use Konc or Netscape 4.7x under Linux. Doesn't matter. My traffic logs are closing in on 100% MSIE. Does /. publish it's access_log stats?
Anyway, give it up. Even Opera allows users to specify the UserAgent field (and defaults to MSIE). Heck, Mozilla supports InnerHTML (not W3C compliant).
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
The last I read the licence (circa Office97) I read that exactly this use of office is valid.
If you've got a licenced copy of office at work, you may use it at home.
(it's licenses like these that help make a software package more widely used...)
Use Abiword instead. I tried downloading OpenOffice recently and found it rather bloated and crash-prone. The only feature I needed, really, was for it to underline mispelled words--which OpenOffice didn't, but Abiword, surprisingly, did.
I installed Abiword on a Windows machine, and it's considerably faster/easier than OpenOffice. Sure, it's not for all those office "power users", but if all you're doing is writing a paper for class, it'll do what you need it to. (And optional Vi key bindings, to boot!)
Dlugar
Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
It specifically says that the code is generated based on the hardware in your system. Unless you swapped out hardware as part of your format-and-reinstall
What if the format-and-reinstall was because you swapped out hardware? What if you are installing Windows onto the new hard drive you just bought? Luckily, there's a better way: Generic Windows. It's Wine running on top of Linux or BSD. And as long as developers continue to support Windows 9x, Wine will be fine.
All your hallucinogen are belong to us.
Will I retire or break 10K?
LINUX IS NOT READY FOR GAMES, not yet. Name a game that you can just install and start playing without touching any config files.
Once you have the Allegro library installed from source tarball (./configure; make depend; make; su -c make install), you can run any free Allegro game such as freepuzzlearena, TOD, or scores of others. There are also emulators to run other platforms' games (such as TuxNES and SNES9x).
All your hallucinogen are belong to us.
Will I retire or break 10K?
NOT UNTIL LINUX RUNS DIRECTX APPS, and then I will JUMP ONTO LINUX soooo fast
Wine already implements a subset of DirectDraw and DirectInput, enough to run many older (and more imaginative) games. And there are libraries such as Allegro and ClanLib that make porting across Windows (DirectX) and Linux (X11/DGA) a matter of a recompile.
All your hallucinogen are belong to us.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I agree...I use Windows (98 and 2000) but I dual boot with Linux. If MS makes this scheme of theirs as inconvient as it sounds, I WILL switch to Linux on a permanent basis. Playing the latest games is not a sufficiently compelling reason for putting up with this bullshit.
The codes, and your use of them, are all stored at MondoUncrackableDatabase.microsoft.com. And sure, you could set your clock back every day, but writing software to detect this would really be pretty trivial - have Windows record how many hours you've been using it. It could encrypt this info and save it to \system32\gondonlyknows.dll.
So after your computer's been up for about 300 hours, but the date never changes, it'll start to get suspicious, and politely shut down.
I don't think they'll be this draconian, but it's certainly technically feasible.
question: is control controlled by its need to control?
answer: yes
This isn't as much "normalization" as it is "don't take so many drugs when you're designing tables."
If indeed it is bared on the MAC address, wouldn't it be possible to just start posting MAC address / Registration code pairs on an engine like astalavista? Then you just manually change your MAC.
:)
Or better yet, make a utility that takes the MAC address as input and pumps out a valid serial #
Woah, smart Microsoft!
Ever need an online dictionary?
I believe they've taken it out
Keep in mind this is is only a rumour... but even if it's false right now, I woulnd't be surprised if we see this sort of thing some years down the road. This ties really well into the whole activation thing -- once Microsoft gets enough information on you, you're in their database. And with Microsoft integrating DRM into Windows XP, it's not too much of a stretch to wonder if every SDMI'ed MP3 you download will have an entry in Microsoft's little database. That's the big danger of having one company controlling too much of your software.
I don't know a hell of a lot about the proposed authorization scheme, but it seems to me that if you have to get authorization every time you start such an app (which would make sense to me, coming from Microsoft's addled brain), then it would be easy for someone to DoS your copy of Office or whatever. All you'd need to do is flood a network with a load of NAKs (again, assuming stuff I know nothing about). Of course, it should be equally possible to fake the ACKs, but is a legitimate company going to know how to do this if its small, or be able to convince its management, if it's large, that this is the only way to get their copies of Word to work, even though its intentionally hacking Microsoft's security measures?
Fuck 'im up, Tim! His views are invalid! -Pirate Corp$
And welcome. Just wanted to make a programming suggestion since you are an ASP and database guy. Check out the Zope application server ( and I'll tell you now so you don't have to stumble on it your self: Get ZEO when you get Zope ). Zope is a python based webserver. Very cool stuff. Also, start converting your ASP experience into Apache's PHP experience. Finally, take a look at Postgres SQL server. These products should get you started in delivering solutions similiar to the ones your working on now.
And don't be daunted by the learning curve of Linux. It is worth it in the end. ( but there is no end, hehe )
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
Except that you can't get the nice cheap hobbyist version anymore, only the quite expensive corporate edition.
According to the article, "a Microsoft spokesman assured [the author]" that mundane upgrades wouldn't cause a problem. Whew! We can all rest easy, because we know a Microsoft spokesman would never mislead a member of the press....
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
1: Disconnect from any networku rrentVersion change RegDone to -1
2: Start the install, but dont use dynamic update
3: After installation and on first boot, dont set up your internet connection when it asks. Click on next, or skip - the wizard will crash when you click next
4: Click Start/Run and type:
regsvr32.exe -u regwizc.dll
5: Under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\WindowsNT\C
7: Open up Internet Exploder. Open the Tools/Internet Properties, and change your home page to something that isnt Microsoft or MSN.
8: Reboot and before windows starts up, plug in your network connection.
And while you're at it, maybe you should dump that messy ASP for some elegent Cold Fusion. If CF's not verbose or granular enough for you, and you need a solid cross platform solution, try JSP.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
'Innocent until proven guilty' is a maxim that only applies to the justice system. As a corporation, MS is free and clear allowed to do this.
If you pay money for it, feel free to complain. If you don't plan on paying for it, then nobody cares what you think.
Once a cracker has gotten access to your Hard Disk he/she could probably change the registry to indicate that the product was unregistered, however, del *.* would save time. If anyone gets that far then you probably have bigger problems then the Product Activation feature.
By the way less than 24 hours after the release of WinXP 2446 the Product Activation has been cracked.
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
And, it's not EXACTLY a DOS attack...I mean, the service provided by the system is to release activation codes...you're simply requesting a large number of them. You're using the keyservers for their legitimate purpose. Sure, you're just forwarding the codes to /dev/null, but that's inconsequential at this point.
If they ask you why you're requesting so many activation codes, tell them that re-installing Windows /Office XP is your personal hobby. ;)
Also, what happens if some dark, evil, nefarious, nogoodnick hacker (the really bad kind, the kind that kick puppies) just HAPPENS to be running a packet sniffer between me and MS, and then publishes my key on the big, bad, scary Internet? Will MS-Lawyers bust down my door, and force me to read the EULA? I don't think I could stand that! ;(
I just want to take over the world...Why does that automatically make me EVIL?
Microsoft's new tactic will give their users yet another reason to install products like VMWare, and host it with an alternative platform such as Gnu/Linux.
Does anyone know if Intel has 're-enabled' the UID in its CPUs in the P4?
Wouldnt it be nice if they could track exact CPUs....
What a fiasco this is going to be...
Technically, I'd be violating the DMCA, not the UCITA. I guess I'll just have to inform my jury about "Jury Nullification" if/when I get put in to prison for it.
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
I for one, am going to buy a legal copy of "XP" (shudder, someone tell MS to get the D&D'ers out of marketing!) and then crack the authorization.
Why? The big reason is that this kind of stuff pisses me off. It's a real hassle for me to have bother with calling the nimrods at MS tech support (speaking from experience, I used to work in PSS) every time I make a "major" hardware change, (which is often), and prove to them that it's a "legit" copy. I fdisk and reformat every 2 or 3 months for God's sake! If they have a problem with that, whatever.
What is it with calling it Windows XP? What's next, Microsoft Outlook +3, trojan-slaying? (It's not a memory-leak, it's a "bag of holding"!) Where does the madness end?
I've been called a "Fucking Dick" by better people than you.
But that is the basis of law. Some people will think that they are entitled to do anything they want to. What they don't understand is that then entitles the people who want to encarcerate them to the same right, only...their desire involves wanting to encarcerate them.
So if this bozo doesn't mind posting his home address, we can show him how much he's really against that sort of "fair use". Especially when he has to live in a box on the side of the highway because of it. I'm sure software piracy is the greatest contribution these morons can do to help the US economy get back on its feet. Let's hear it for the imbecils!
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Below is a note I just sent to webmaster@techrepublic.com:
You might be aware that Slashdot just linked to one of your articles--if
not, have a look at http://slashdot.org/ and your server logs.
Slashdot, if you don't know, is one of the most popular news/discussion
sites for ``nerds'' and others with an interest in the tech community
and industry. It's given rise to the verb, ``to slashdot,'' which refers
to something akin to a denail of service attack when thousands upon
thousands of Slashdot readers attempt to view a page that is mentioned
on Slashdot.
If your servers can handle it, being slashdotted is a wonderful thing:
you get an astounding boost in traffic from an extremely savvy,
knowledgeable, and often influential crowd of people. If your servers
can't handle it, it can be a bit of a nightmare, of course.
While it would seem that your servers can handle the load, your site
expressly can't. Your insistence on only allowing people using the
latest browsers from Microsoft and Netscape is all but guaranteed to
royally tick off a significant portion of Slashdot readers--not to
mention, potential readers in general. Slashdot readers, in particular,
are likely to use Linux, one of the BSDs, or some other Free operating
system. I, for example, attempted to use the Konqueror browser under
FreeBSD to view your site. I had had Konqueror running continuously,
without quitting or crashing, for about a week...until I tried to view
the article despite your warning. Congratulations, yours is the first
site I've viewed (amidst some very heavy viewing) which has ever managed
to crash the latest version of Konqueror.
By designing your site in such a way, you are satisfying your own ego
(by producing what's probably an attractive site) at the expense of your
potential audience and your advertisors. Is it really worth it to use
the latest gee-whiz doohickies and, in turn, post a giant "GO AWAY! WE
DON'T WANT YOUR MONEY! YOU ARE STUPID AND PRIMITIVE!"
sign to everybody who doesn't march in lock-step with your idea of
which browser/platform is best? You might think so, but I doubt
your boss or your advertisers do.
There are two sites which you, as a Web designer, must know inside and
out before you create another page: http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/
and http://www.w3.org/. The first has information more information about
why it's not a good idea to insult and lock out your potential
audiences; the second is the repository of the official defintion of
HTML.
Sincerely,
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
Actually, OEMs will automatically pre-register your copy of Windows XP and/or Office XP with Microsoft. Now, the question is which OEM are you talking about? I'm sure the Mom & Pop down the street computer shop probably won't pre-register unless Microsoft forces the issue and threatens them with legal action. On the other the OEM's that are in bed with Microsoft (Dell, Compaq, etc.) will definitely pre-register.
However... a lot of this really doesn't matter because the big OEM's (Dell, Compaq, HP, etc.) don't give you a copy of your OS media these days. Now you only get a recovery CD that restores your system to the original factory condition. Microsoft completely snuck that under the radar and no one ever said anything.
It may be a pain to return your software... but you can't return a restore CD. Why would Microsoft want a copy of a restore CD that is only good for your computer? So, I guess you won't be able to ask for a refund on Windows because you won't actually have a copy of Windows.
2) What in the hell does the new Windows XP activation have to do with Windows 2000 deployments?
Did anyone else notice that TechRepublic is giving MS advice on avoiding bad PR rather than asking MS to forget this stupid feature-not-a-bug?
sulli
RTFJ.
As much as I like to bash Microsoft, I can't see any significant problems here. It appears, from reading the article and the Microsoft info, that this "product activation" will only need to be done once, and once it's activated, that's it, end of story; there's no "connect to Microsoft every time and verify the code" (imagine how frustrated that would make modem users). As far as surreptitiously transmitting information, I can't see any way to do that through this code, at least as Microsoft describes it; at worst, you could have your DNS corrupted or packets intercepted, and someone might be able to find out what country you were in or how many computers you have. And if that bothers you, you can always do the registration over the telephone and cut out the network part entirely.
As for destroying the activation info, I don't doubt that sooner or later a virus will come out that deletes that info, but at worst you'll just have to activate the software again. And keep in mind also that killing the activation code doesn't mean you suddenly can't use the software any more; you can make use of the free trial period while you get the re-activation done. (Actually, depending on the implementation this might require a reinstall, but...) Yes, you'd lose some working time, but it wouldn't be too much worse than Melissa, I imagine.
--
BACKNEXTFINISHCANCEL
i have been using windows since i started with computers, use it now. i am an ASP, mssql etc programmer. However, i believe in the motto "you vote with every dollar you spend" (or in *nix's case, dont spend hehe) i have always been interesting in linux and open source, but never enough to do anything serious with it. however, i will not give in the xp bullshit. there is absolutely no reason i should not have complete control over my PERSONAL computer. so, my next upgrade will be to linux. welcome me aboard.
NEWS: cloning, genome, privacy, surveillance, and more!
NEWS: cloning, genome, privacy, surveillance, and more!
The fundamental flaw I see with product activation schemes is when a company goes under. Unless they manage to make a "registration disabler" before they close, products installed after a company shuts its doors may never function.
I have yet to see a company mention how it plans to deal with this situation, no matter how uncomfortable it might be. Personal computers from the 1980s still work in my house; I see no reason for my current computer to fail due to non-installing software in 2020.
"If I, as a home user, am forced over the course of a year to reinstall XP five times, and MS refuses me a sixth code...."
Call me crazy, but isn't this inviting a massive DoS attack? If I happen to activate this code enough times over a few hours, what's going to happen to the poor saps who are waiting to activate their copy of Windows?
From MS's own site - http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2001/Feb0 1/ProdActFS.asp -
"Customers are not required to provide any personally identifiable information. Activation over the Internet takes just a few seconds; activation by phone through a Microsoft customer service representative takes just a few minutes. "
I can hear the hacktivists crashing through the gates now, Mr. Gates...
-----------------------------
Someday, I hope to live in a world
This is the first I've heard about this and I think it is amazing that MS can be this facist. This essentially assumes everyone is guilty, and then contacts MS to verify that they're not. In the article, dude goes to great lengths to describe how convienient and easy activation will be, but glosses over the individual rights argument entirely.
std::disclaimer<std::legalese> sig=new std::disclaimer; sig->dump(); delete sig;
The OfficeXP warez version that has started to float around lots of different places requires no activation. It only requires a serial number to be entered once. It hasnt been cracked. I havent bothered to find anything out about the final product, but if this is any indication....
A quick quote taken directly from the nfo on the warez release:
Unzip, unrar, install.. This is your cd-key..
(NOTE this cdkey will bypass the product activation crap.. This is a
'all in wonder' cdkey (just before someone says "you didnt crack the
activation crap!!"))
Does it go on forever?
Everybody seems to be whining about how impossible it is for activation codes to not interfere with upgrades/reinstalls/whatever. The fact is that they are based on your MAC address, and that's all. THe only upgrade that may cause a problem is when you re-install and swap out your Netowrk card. Microsoft loves MAC addresses. In fact, so does every other big company who tries to enforce privacy protection. Autodesk and Adobe have both been using those suckers forever. Nothing new, nothing scary, so just relax and believe the FUD this time.
-Andrew
By new versions of the OS .. ..
They will forget the servers for the old OS one day and you will get stuck
One day, this might be an interesting way to get money from MS for shutting your old Whistler down.
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
Ummm.. all you need to do is port scan to find Windows users. Why would a list of IP's be worth anything? I could generate such a list easily enough, not to mention that things like dynamic IP addressing, NAT, Firewalls, etc.. mean that an IP is often times worthless as a way of identifying someone unless you have a search warrant to retrieve logs from your ISP.
Man, people.. *THINK* before you jump to wild conclusions about how this or that is such a horrid security or privacy violation. This information is freely available from thousands of differnet sources.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
Please, read the process before jumping to conclusions.
1) You have 30 days to activate the product from the time you install it. If you are reinstalling eveyr 30 days or so anyways, you have no reason to activate in the first place.
2) Because you have 30 days to activate, that gives you plenty of time to call MS whenever it's convenient for you.
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
They don't have the exact same hardware ID's. There are lots of unique ID's, even on identical hardware. For instance, Network cards have a unique IEEE mandated ID, Hard drives have serial numbers unique to the drive, if you have a PIII with processor ID enabled, that's another, etc..
If you need web hosting, you could do worse than here
Most of the people who are installing MS operating systems multiple times, are the ones that newbies look to when they have a problem. I've reinstalled NT server at home at least 20 times. Not because it had problems, but because I was testing different things. Sure, I paid for my copy of NT server, but I'll be damned if I'm going to keep tossing Bill Gates money just so I can answer peoples questions. If I need to call MS every time I am reinstalling (usually at 2am), the software will be useless to me. My ME (which I tested for 2 days) was bootleg, but I only tried it to be able to answer questions (my answer was "don't").
Here is my answer to Microsoft: Go ahead. Put this new registration scheme in place. Nobody will buy this, because nobody will be able to help new people. Meanwhile, as you make it harder to use your product, Linux takes over the desktop as well. Please explain to me where your profits will be then? (jerks)
-Spackler
> Yea such a thing is against the DMCA, let em
> find me and sue me. I call it fair use.
That's odd. Most people call that "theft".
Virg
Just as a side note, it's not the CD that you'd return if you wanted to return the software. In fact, most EULAs specify that you should destroy the medium if you wish to terminate the license. I found this when I returned a copy years ago of Microsoft Word. I had accidentally acquired two copies issued by Microsoft (they sent out OEM "free" copies back then) and when I told them I had two and needed to return one to stay in license, they had me send back the certificate of authenticity only. They didn't care what I did with the disks. So, having only a backup CD doesn't preclude your returning the software for a refund as long as you have your cert (or cert sticker, recently). The practice of sending out a recovery CD only was an OEM agreement that M$ put together in an attempt to make it harder to pirate Windows.
Of course, this is all a moot point anyway, as M$ won't honor the return clause anyway. I bought a Dell PC recently. I was not allowed to buy it without an OS (specifically, Dell isn't allowed by their contract with M$ to sell a machine without a Microsoft OS preinstalled), and when I declined the EULA and tried to get my money back, neither Microsoft nor Dell would give it to me. I was forced to pay for Windows Me if I wanted a Dell computer. Period.
Virg
Really? Too bad you don't know some of the MSCEs I have meet. (Start with joke, checked :-)
But seriously, it is not very clear how the "Microsoft Activation Center" is going to work. For example if I call them up and tell them "I have complete overhaul my computer please give me the new code", but the truth is I've just install it on another machine. Or if it helps, build the second machine with some parts from the first one. But how are they going to know the difference? Come to my home and take a look?
Maybe there is a way to disable the old code remotely? Of course you can get around this by not connect that machine to the net. But what this is really about is this:
If you read the last question on the Microsoft Product Activation Q&A, they finally mentioned .NET. I think the only way to really enforce this code is to have a OS/software that are completely useless unless you connect to a .NET server. That is where they can really monitor if a activation code is being used from different machines/locations.
BTW I hope you know that M$ can already "read" your W2K reg number when you visit their site, without actually submitting anything. Try getting windows updates from the MS site directly for with a machine using a special/cooperate license.
====
Codeala - Just another mindless drone
Many home users never actually upgrade their OS themselves. Many only get a new OS when they get a new computer and it is installed already on it. This is how they have built a userbase. The people that are actually concerned with upgades are 1) businness (at least some) and 2) powerusers.
Does this activation code thing allow you to install the same verion of windows, on the same machine, more than once?
Such as say, you install Linux, then put Windows back on?
Windows XP is going to encourage users to switch to Linux & MacOS. It has nagware, intelletcual 'property' protection schemes, and MP3 ownership verification. And if they don't switch to Linux, they'll end up installing cracks to disable the "features" M$ put in to prevent copying.
A friend of mine down the dorm hall from me has been playing with Whistler for a while now, since he got a copy of it with the authorization built in he's found a crack for it. In fact the latest version of Whistler/XP that he's been using has it pre cracked so that when it says you must contact Microsoft for the code, all you do is hit OK and you are done. Just like with CD checks for games, as soon as a new patch comes out for the game, someone comes out with a way to prevent it. Yea such a thing is against the DMCA, let em find me and sue me. I call it fair use.
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Even their current licensing system is totally ridiculous. To me, if it takes more than half a minute to explain per seat/per sever/etc etc, the licensing system is too involved and you should just put down a Linux or FreeBSD box... or even a Solaris x86 box (with less than 8 processors)...Microsoft can go and screw themselves.
If techs were cautious about moving to non-MS platforms before, this might just make them do it.MS claims that this will prevent casual piracy. I don't see the difference in "convenience" between finding a serial # for software on a pirate site or a crack for MS's code. Why would MS add such a sophisticated yet ineffective scheme to their software? Is it a plan to collect information about what software people use?
I think I'll get a pirate copy of every piece of MS software I use -- even those I purchase, or receive free with the machine. Then I'll at least have some privacy.
"..but the only required data point on the product activation screen is the country you're in."
I admittedly don't know if the activation process makes you dialup to your normal ISP or directly to Microsoft, but if you're dialing up to Microsft, they now have a phone number (and all the data that they can find with that) to enter into their customer database.
And even if you aren't dialing up directly to them, they'll still have your IP. Who knows who will get their hands on that information? Can you imagine if the people who got into the Microsoft computers had gotten their hands on a complete list of the IP addresses of the users of all Microsoft products (complete with their traditional gaping security defects..).
The information average users need to be worried about isn't the information you enter into your screen. It's the stuff that they don't even realize they're giving away. On the other hand.. if it means Microsoft has a complete profile of them when they call tech support, maybe they won't care?
Reality is indistinguishable from any sufficiently advanced fantasy.
Ive always expected misunderstanding, FUD, and myths about Mickeysoft products, its the way the company (MS) decides to provide clarity on what it is actually doing.
Not such a bad idea to go and tell Microsoft how to address issues regarding their company, after all I'm sure their entourage of highly paid employees haven't assessed these matters previously.
So whats the big hooplah about, Microsoft wants to ensure no one is going to pirate their work. One thing a lot of people don't seem to zero in on, is Microsoft is not like the Unixes, it is not OpenSource and they don't have to answer to anyone at any given time. What if it were your program, would you feel slighted if someone stole your work and took money out of your pocket? I'm sure you would, now how would you feel if people we're ranting on because you want to make sure this doesn't happen? Why does this seem to always be a double edged sword?
Here we go again with suits waisting tax payer dollars. Solution if the product bugs you that much don't use it.
Solution: Move away from using Microsoft products, whats the horror in this. If its so damn bad toss it.
NOW THIS IS BS!!! and I'm glad I don't have to use Microsoft. I think MS will know the downfalls of doing this and find a better solution. (hopefully for their sake)
360 degrees of Karma
Schema is also a term for a layout, model, etc. He used the word correctly.
-- I'll cut you up so bad, you'll wish I'd never cut you up so bad!
I think both of these people missed the possible violation of privacy surrounding this software. Whether or not you fill in the 'registration' part of the software, the 'activation' part still happens over the Internet. I refuse to believe that when the clearinghouse handling this receives an activation request via the Internet, that it is going to throw away the IP header information from whence it came (this should leave a pretty good breadcrumb trail to you). Good marketing information actually, now they'll know just how many people coming from Ma-n-Pa ISP in Idaho are using their new product. And for those who activate over the phone (I believe this will be available), I'm sure they will social engineer more information out of you than you would care to give.
Now they probably couldn't go after every violation that will crop up. But say they see a large number of 'instances' occuring from a particular subnet range (small company perhaps, or a small community sharing a local ISP). They could nab a large group all at once.
Not your normal AC.
Lots of people (I would say the majority of Internet users) are still on dial-up too, they get a new IP address everytime they dial in. It's not like a social security number.
Most people won't care, or more properly, most people won't know this could and most probably will, become a problem. Only the informed minority will try and raise a fuss, but it won't matter in the end.
I've been installing systems for years now for friends and family. For all of these people, once the system was up and running, their biggest concerns was not f*cking it up. Most people don't reformat their HD every few months or swap hardware for the fun of it. Hell, most people don't change their desktop bitmaps... They use their computer to check their emails and surf the web, maybe play a few games and the odd homework assignments for the kids. For the people who buy a computer-thingie 'cause the neighbours have one or they want to try out that new fangled Internet, I seriously doubt that they will complain about which OS comes with the package-deal computer they buy.
So what if they get a message once in a while telling them they need to connect to upgrade or get a bug fix. Most people will put up with it. Why? Because once something is done, apathy sets in and people start to rationalize. It's not so bad, it does that all the time. I just click, wait a few minutes and it goes away. I'll ask my son / friend / husband / etc... what it means when he comes home...if I remember.
Sad, but most probably true.
Give me liberty, or a ham sandwich!
See me at: www.flubu.com
Fight or lose, the right to choose. -Oi Polloi "The Right to Choose"
More amusingly, the possibility of remote shutdown of someone's network using this appears to be no worse than with any other Micro$oft product. It doesn't seem to do anything more than irritate existing users.
I have the "trial" version of Office on this machine and the anonymity thing seems to be nonsense - I had a look at the packet and it clearly says "product xxx, registration key YYY", which as we all know lets them link it to anything you expose on the net. Like, say, your email address in Outleak, or the "owned by" details that most corps helpfully make you fill out with your name and so on in Word. It's a good way to provide enhanced traceability of anyone using M$ products to access the net.
And of course, sniffing those details lets you point the finger at anyone you choose. The worry is that M$ will try to claim positive ID based on this stuff, and that the id is non-copyable and secure, since forging or altering it is an offence under the DCMA.
spamdot sucks
Windows is getting more and more expensive, just as if Microsoft had a monopoly. Oh, wait, they do.