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SOUP is Good for You
raelity writes "CNet is running a story about Ximian, nee Helix Code, planning to bring Web Services a la Microsoft's .NET to *nix operating systems by incorporating "SOUP" (a play on SOAP) into the Gnome user interface. "While tech kingpins such as Microsoft and Oracle have rushed to one-up each other in introducing Web-delivered software, Ximian is doing work behind the scenes to make sure Web services can run on the Linux and Unix operating systems.""
Give me a spoon so I can enjoy this SOUP.
//Pingo
--- Linux or FreeBSD, it's like blondes or brunettes. I like both. ---
You know, you can mod me down for this little observation - though I don't think it's justified. But isn't it a little interesting that people always mock KDE because it is so Microsoftish and all the "cool geeks" use Gnome when, in all actuality, the lead Gnome man always seems to praise and follow Microsoft openly? Bonobo for instance, then SOUP?
I'm not making a judgement on all of this, but it always seems so hypocritical to me.
I'm having serious doubts whether leveraging this technology is the way to go. Considering that Microsoft hasn't a good track record for introducing useful and really open standards, the SOUP-crew might expect too much from .NET.
Wouldn't it be wiser to continue to create new and enhance existing standards. This would garuantee that new concepts will be available to all platforms, without being dependant on a single vendor which has a track record that isn't too rosy-colored (especially in the open source world).
Web technology as it exists (ranging from the simple interaction of web server & client, to databases which are integrated in webplatforms and internal information systems) has a lot to offer right now, and we can expect a lot in the future. I don't see why the direction should be altered towards a single-vendor 'solution'.
The Internet concept is largely the product of inventiveness of academic minds who did not have profit motives. This proofed a wonderful thing. Let's us not part from that now.
This embrace and extend strategy can work many ways, not only in the favour of Microsoft.
Whatever M$ does, it will be extended (polluted) be their accumulated enemies.
//Pingo
--- Linux or FreeBSD, it's like blondes or brunettes. I like both. ---
There is something called SOUP, which is something like a SOAP for binary data: The Simple Object Update Protocol (SOUP) specifies an content-transfer model for digital "appliances" like cameras, printers, scanners, picture frames, personal digital assistants, cell phones, machine control systems, and so on. SOUP standardizes simple but important communications between content-rich devices. It uses Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP) messages to push content from one device into another. The approach resembles the way web browsers pull content from web servers. SOUP works with only two device "actions": 1)HTTP GET to obtain the device or service object state as a SOAP serialization and 2)HTTP POST to set the device state as well control the transfer of content. SOUP supports simple transfer, transfer with job control, indirect transfer (URL based), and content negotiation. SOUP does not preclude additional actions on devices; it exists to make simple actions simple.
I've had a serious infatuation with SOAP since Microsoft started talking about their .NET framework. With Ximian/Helix Code releasing SOUP I think it's going to blosson into love.
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silence is poetry.
Most unix apps and frameworks are already network transparent anyway.
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Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
"We're making it so you can write services in the Java environment and bring them to the (Windows) platforms, as well as do the reverse," said Gates. "We think Java looks sweet," Gates continued. "Sun is supporting Java for creating network services. But we will let these services become available to Windows."
Boot. Foot. Other. Funny.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
While tech kingpins such as Microsoft and Oracle have rushed to one-up each other in introducing Web-delivered software, Ximian is doing work behind the scenes to make sure Web services can run on the Linux and Unix operating systems.
While web-delivered software seems like a good idea, I wonder what the consequences for free software are. Obliviously free software isn't going to go away - but I see it becoming a less viable alternative. There are several reasons for this.
(1) If software is delivered via the web, you will require someone else's computing power at the other end of the line. Someone has to pay for this. As the recent experience of the dotcoms shows, business models based on giving stuff away free almost invariable don't work. Software provides will have to be paid for the service they provide. So an end to the free beer aspect of software.
(2) If software is running on remote server's, then even if it is covered by an open source licence, in many cases, the people running the severs will not be distributing binaries, so won't be required to provided source code for any changes they make. Hence an end to the free speech aspect of free software.
Sure, not everyone will use web delivered software, so open source software will continue to be used by niche users. However, once the mainstream embrace web delivered software (and this is likely since its being pushed by MS and Sun et al), open source software will be permanently confined to the backwaters. This will mean its benefits will only be enjoyed by a select few.
You might be able to pipe text utils over sockets, but that's a long way from a general programming model. CORBA is slow and a pain to use, RPC is pretty limited. Map memory over the network? In 4k chunks??? I disagree w/ most Unix apps being network transparent, but I'd love to be wrong. Is SOAP and different or better than RPC? Is there something wonderful out there that I don't know about?
I really hope that the GNOME-team has been in contact with the KDE-team here, to create a protocol that will make the protocol a common standard rather than a GNOME-specific invention. Sadly, I don't hold my hopes up on this one...
Well, only that small issue of GNOME 1.4. The beta is available from Ximian and the final release is due in a few weeks.
Amazing. One of my friends has for several years had a stuffed penguin named Soup.
No, we don't know why. And we're none of us Linux geeks. Funny how these things work.
-J
Karma: T-rexcellent.
Or is SOAP a replacement for .NET, much like TeX was touted as a replacement for a majority of the word processors out there? Not that that strategy worked entirely (an overwhelming number of TeX users seemed to jump ship when StarOffice came on board). It would be nice if the two were able to recognize each other, or at least SOAP recognize .NET.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
In the software testing community, SOUP degradingly refers to "Software Of Unknown Pedigree"
I would be very happy i Ximian would focus on getting their Gnome distribution back on track. There have not been any updates available for a long time.
</I><BR><BR>How did this post get a +2. It's ver <i>un</I>informed. Helix does a great job with the gnome distribution. After all, they're not the only ones doing it. Redhat has one; Debian has one; Mandrake has one; etc. As was mentioned, Gnome 1.4 is on the way, maybe in a week or three.<br><br>Your statement implies that Ximian is working on SOUP, SOAP, Wuteva, to the detriment of their Gnome packages. Well All I have to say is, it takes a genius to implement SOUP, SOAP, whateva, and a trained monkey to package a distro. If Ximian had to choose (which Id say is a fallacy) then Id rahter they build out the infrastructure of the already-good GNOME.<BR><BR>First Corba, Now Bonobo. Tomorrow SOUP AND SOAP. With Nautilus making its way and Evolution having a Cambrian explosion. I think times are looking good for GNOME.
If each group develops its own protocol, which will of course be open source, than maybe we can just choose the better of them, or combine the best of each.
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
The headline should have been: "SOUP is good food". Not making the Dead Kennedys reference disappoints me
It appears SOUP is just going to be a GNOME interface to the .NET SOAP (XML based remote object invocation) interfaces.
.NET SOAP interfaces.
There's no reason KDE can't also use the
You can't feel ownership of a remotely managed and remotely owned application. Human nature tells us to achieve to OWN not RENT.
An interesting point, but just because the software is on a remote computer doesn't mean you cannot own it. I.e. M$ could give you the choice between a $14/month licences for office or a $800 lifetime one.
Actually, the title of the song is "Soup is Good Food," for anyone out there who's a fan of the Dead Kennedys.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
I don't give a fuck about a CNet interview,
Show me the code, then we can talk.
Daniel Veillard
... I mean, except the evil influence of M$...
Rot-13 my address to e-mail me.
"So I hurry back to little earth / For another life another birth"
Personally I stay away from KDE and related apps because I'm still pissed about the pathetic licensing for Qt in the early days. It was already painfully obvious that people weren't going to pay for yet another toolkit; know anyone (no, not your company) who owns a real copy of Motif? I didn't think so.
Too little too late. So fuck 'em.
does anyone know of a Microsoft product that is actualy compliant with published Microsoft standards? Home can GNOME comply if the standards creators can't
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
What a ridiculous argument. By your argument, anyone who has ever done anything "wrong" (and I'm not yet sure that charging money for a high quality products is "wrong"), we should never forgive them or give them a second chance. Utterly ridiculous.
You're doing yourself no favor by staying away from Qt. It is an oustanding toolkit, and you should take a look at v3.0 on the way soon.
know anyone (no, not your company) who owns a real copy of Motif
No, but I know more than one company that has a Qt license.
I give trolltech lots of respect for giving away their flagship product for nothing. If they want to make money on it by using two licenses, more power to them. It works for them, and it works for me (and other free software developers).
But hey, don't let logic convince you... go on denying yourself access to a slew of amazing free apps.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
SOAP is already a cross-platform standard. So what is this SOUP thing actually? The only clue in the C|Net article is where it says "Ximian is creating a tool that will allow Web services written for Linux to be compiled for SOAP. De Icaza said the compiler could be available to developers within two months."
Ah. So it's a tool of some sort, not a protocol. A google search on "Ximian SOUP" only turns up this message, which isn't that helpful (the "synapse" server it refers to is maybe https://synapse.ximian.com/, which isn't publicly accessible. Anyone actually know what this thing IS?
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Free software is not there to be innovative, just free. Those of you who are afraid that this idea may look a whole lot like another from a proprietary vendor do not get it. That is part of the point of free software - take something that you would otherwise have to pay for, write it yourself, and give it away for free.
In general, I think you are right, though. Both KDE and Gnome follow Microsoft quite a bit. And while that may be useful for mass market appeal, overall, I think it's a shame. Linux's GUI could be so much more useful than merely doing well what Windows already does.
I can't tell whether this is a strategy by Microsoft to appear open and get others to adopt SOAP without actually delivering interoperability, or whether the SOAP designers just don't care and don't think it's important
Either way, I wouldn't get my hopes up that Linux and Windows-based services can always reliably talk to each other through SOAP. As it stands, SOAP is not a complete RPC spec and cannot replace even many simple uses of CORBA or DCOM. If that's what you want, Sun XDR/RPC is probably a better choice for you: it's much better specified. Or, of course, we can try to track Microsoft's actual implementation (as opposed to their spec) as much as possible.
MS will be able to have "Use SOAP"
Which is clearly a better play on a common phrase.
Then they could have "You are not the car you drive....You are the OS you use instead" to go along with it.
I'm not sure what is going to make this .NET thing so big. It won't be able to run alot of apps that some ppl need to use. Only basic type of apps, and then they'll all be MS. For someone who uses the same computer all the time, Is this going to have any advantage? Other than having to wait a long time to do something because the server is busy? Or is this intended for something completely differnt, like internet devices?
I'm I even slightly on the right track in terms of what the MS .NET thing is?
VNC gives you full network transparency, is cross platform, and is pretty lightweight. The TightVNC version works quite well over ISDN-speed links. The client even runs on a PalmPilot through its serial port.
You are also wrong on your history. X11 toolkits traditionally had key and event binding support that was quite powerful, well documented, could be changed dynamically, and was consistent across applications. Neither KDE nor Gnome come close either on documentation or consistency or flexibility.
Even if KDE bindings were fully and consistently reconfigurable, the default right now is not correct for what people expect on a current Linux desktop. At the very least, if it wants to shed its Windows-like image, KDE should address the consistency issues and ship with a set of Emacs/UNIX-like bindings out of the box that users can choose with the click of a button.
woah buddy chill...are you even a sys. op.? ever tried to run apache w/o the source?? perl?? sure if you are lazy having the binary's may be great....but if you want to have a stable system the source is the only way to go.
God is real, unless declared integer.