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Mexico City Adopting Linux; Software Rent Savings Go to Fight Poverty
"Anonymous coward south of the border" sent in this: "Check this article in the mexican online newspaper Reforma (a liitle bit of spanish language knowledge required). It's an interview with the Technical coordinator of the Distrito Federal goverment (Mexico's capital of the country) where they say why choose Linux over MSWindows and make the change of all their systems in a period of 2 years to Linux. All the money saved from the MSWindows licenses will be reallocated to programs for fighting poverty. Sounds good that part of our taxes won't be in Microsoft hands anymore and the Mexican Goverment giving Linux a chance." Maybe someone will post a decent translation - the web-based services make a hash of it. But the interviewee notes that they will save tens of millions of pesos by switching away from rented software.
Open source is not a revolutionary concept for many in the third world, but a necessity. Being able to open the hood and fix things one self is very critical for the success of any product in under developed economies.
It also can be essential for functions of government where you explicitally do not want to bring outsides, especially forigners, in. Where there is a possibility for their enguaging in espionage.
I'm glad I could be of service to the /. community.
Keeping
Local Government Avoids Windows Purchase
And that doesn't include the loss of the ability to run the thousands of Windows only applications or the additional cost of configuring the Linux machines to support vertical market Windows applications -- it can be an ugly world in Windows to begin with for many of them.
:0 ".
Assuming the relevant Windows applicatios cannot be run using something like "wine -display
Even if the numbers for hiring Linux professionals, a rare and relatively expensive breed still, are equal to that for hiring Windows trained professionals (of which decent ones are somewhat rare themselves) the savings in licensing are not horribly significant
You are missing that the money will stay within the economy. Rather than leaving the country...
IIRC, Miguel played a part in convincing the Mexico (or maybe just Mexico City) school system to standardize on Linux w/ GNOME system-wide. I remember seeing that on Slashdot a year or two ago, prior to the release of GNOME 1.0, but I don't know what the outcome was. Does anyone know what happened?
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Here's my 2 pesos. Slashdot es grande,...(I'm Mexican). It is my understanding that what that interview really means, is the attitude towards ``Wy will stop the dogmatic endoctrination of mighty windows preference''. Forget those $200 dollar PC's Brasil's government is about to launch (from which I would like to attatch my voodoo3 3000). We in M'exico describe progress as, some sort of the following effect: We call progress between two cities connected by a road, as the benefits aquired. Or the consecuence of two cities growing,... i.e. the road. Anyhow, that is progress in Mexico. PC's first, despite OS, then people in both extremes with GNOME/KDE making things easily? (previous grep,sed,awk tutorials) , and arrive of ``my first computer'' will do (see: Miguel de Icaza project http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/emexico.html ) In which conclussions he states: ``México nunca ha tenido la oportunidad de participar en la tecnología de punta y siempre nos hemos mantenido rezagados. Con el uso del software libre, México tiene una oportunidad de ponerse a la cabeza en el desarrollo tecnológico y de llevar adelante proyectos que satisfagan las necesidades del proyecto e-México y al mismo tiempo crear una infraestructura que nos independice tecnológicamente.'' Translation: ``Mexico has ever had the chance to participate from edge tecnology, and we have allways being keept away from it. With the use of free/open software, Mexico has the oportunity to become a protagonist in the leading edge of technological development, wich will satisfy the development of the e-Mexico project neccesities, and at the same time create an infrastructure wich will make us independent (non-dependent).'' Finally, I think despite of the GNOME/KDE, Konqueror/Nautilius,Enlightenment/Sawfish, Slackware/RedHat, dilema,...it would be worthed a proccess to follow. Some Red Carpet, Bonoboo, Evolution (.NET?) technology will for shure help in the process. It is not that MS took the OS to the masses (thanks Bill) during the 80's , being UNIX as ``snob'' as allways and being selected as the OS of excellence during the 70's..... Joel Rodr'iguez http://ww.cicese.mx/~joel/index.html joel@cicese.mx
so .. do you REALLY think its going to stop them just becuase its forbidden ???
Here it's also forbidden, but it happens all the time, and everyone knows it.
As a desktop OS? Probably true, you won't save enough money for it to be worth your while and you limit application support. Of course, if your desired application usage is single purpose and not general purpose desktop usage, it may not really matter. On the server side, this comparison is somewhat silly. I mean, I would imagine that a government is dealing with a lot of client/server style systems here and big databases, etc. The cost of the Windows OS is relatively small compared to application cost within the enterprise, and I would assume that is the case for a governmental entity as well. Linux is a rational choice as a *nix OS that runs on low cost hardware and is well supported by the Open Source/Free Software community at large and has a large number of free and low cost apps available for it. Yah, the professionals may cost money to set it up, but a well set up and managed set of Linux boxes can have a lower TCO than Windows.
Are Microsoft's licensing terms different in Mexico? Given that they've already paid for Microsoft software, how are they planning to *save* money by throwing all that out and converting to Linux?
Okay, maybe they're planning on expanding computer use a lot in the near future or something. Anybody know what the story is?
Actually, I think the point is that many Microsoft products now require that you use that product in conjunction with a properly licensed copy of a Microsoft Windows operating system. I don't know if they could defend this in court or not, but it is a part of all their EULA's. Since Wine isn't a licensed copy of a Microsoft Windows operating system, it would be a violation of that EULA.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
I hope that the government of the D.F. holds the line, but I am a little cynical.
Start out with something reasonable...
I mean, how many economies have been destroyed by free software so far?
Nice troll but you're getting annoying. You're as bad as a karma whore.
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Ikaruga scoreboard (supports netranking)
Politicans and generals throw money at corporations for hare-brained, pie-in-the-sky "weapons systems" and then after retirement they get jobs with said corporations wining and dining the other politicians and generals who succeed them, who then throw more taxpayer dollars at those ill-advised projects.
It is a vicious cycle that is more effective at siphoning money from the public treasury than a hundred individuals with Swiss bank accounts...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
El Presidente probably WON'T be looking at impeachment for getting a hummer.
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Could you please offer your opinion on two of my grammatical obsessions: 1) How is it that I went through years of school never having learned that "an" is used instead of "a" when put before a word that begins with "H" whose first syllable is not accented? Like this: "It was an historic battle." ...instead of: "It was a historic battle."
I've NEVER used the first form - always used the second - and I've never heard anyone speak that way until fairly recently.
2) Why have news-casters suddenly started pronouncing the "t" in words like "negotiations" like an "s" instead of an "sh"?
This also seems to be a fairly recent affectation, coming into being maybe within the last few years or so.
Is it the fault of those damn Mexicans and their damn Linux?
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Nice troll, Bill. When you set up your
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Perhaps you should look at a map... Start in Washington, go south of city limits, and you're in Virginia. Go several hundred miles and you should be able to reach North Carolina, depending on how many hundred.
Damn. I don't want to defend my country from an attack by some troll, in another language, in a board which is even located in another country. I dont't want to. Don't wanna.
Obviously, I will.
Backgroudn info: the Zapatista movement was supposedly started by the way the Federal Government had turned a blind eye to the local comunities in the state of Chiapas. So a few insurgents put up a rag-tag army made up basically of local natives, and started attacking soldiers and policemen in several towns and cities in the state.
But since then, they've turned from a social movement into a mainly political one. They wont end their war (which they declared) with the Mexican Government until several points they're making are met. However, some of these points are incredibly unfair: they claim to be defending native's human rights, but they want the Constitution to preserver they're "usos y costumbres", their way of life, with which in several cases they're even worse off than a regular citizen. Oh, and they also want to receive federal grants and money to do so.
Extreme violence? Extreme prejudice? I'll grant you that there have been several cases where the police have crossed the line and beat up several people who were protesting peacefully. But to go from that to "extreme prejudice" seems completely far-fetched to me.
I dunno. Maybe i'm a bit fascist at heart, but I'd rather see the police and/or military charge into the National University than to see it left to the hands of so-called students on strike. Almost one full year lost, millions of dollars lost in wages and more importantly, in scientific research, and only because somewhere around 10% of the students wanted to gain political power inside the University.
So don't come here calling Mexico "an enemy of humanity". Mexico has been one of the few countries which has constantly declared Peace to be one of the basic rights of every citizen on Earth. We're one of the countries still dealing with Cuba on a friendly basis, and not due to a "die gringo yankee die" mentality which some other countries have.
Ok, It's late. I need to sleep. But my point is, we're not perfect. We're not one of the riches countries, or one of the more advanced ones. But I will not let anyone speak such lies about my country. Mod me down if you wish, but I just wont take htis kids of diffamation quietly.
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
IIRC, Connectiva is actually a Brasilian distro, though there are both Portugese and Spanish versions. My bet is on Red Escolar Linux, a distribution aimed at the Mexican schools and government. It's much easier for governments to pick a distribution that's based in their country so that the economic benefits stay at home. It also has the potential advantage that since it's being used in the schools there will be people who are already familiar with it as users and administrators.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
Open source is not a revolutionary concept for many in the third world, but a necessity. Being able to open the hood and fix things one self is very critical for the success of any product in under developed economies. If the user does not know how to fix it him/herself there will be plenty of street corner shops to offer the service at reasonable cost. The closed source of software distribution will not reach the majority of population in the legal way.
As far as governments adopting the concept is concerned, it gives an institutional backing to the concept which is a big selling point. For example in India any thing approved by the government is looked high and the fact is used in promotion of many products.
The concept is the need of the hour and thanks to all who are working on this.
yAthum UrE yAvarum kELir All the places are our place, everybody is our kin. (A Tamil Poet - 2000 years ago)
This brings to mind a spot I saw on Slashdot ages ago about Mexico choosing linux for use in 140,000 schools.
I wish Rob would add "year" to the posting date of stories... I think the above post was from 1998.
If you want to sing the praises of Win2K, why don't you hang out in alt.I.want.to.brown.nose.Bill.Gates instead?
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
Even if they strike a deal with someone to provide the software and consulting services, the consulting is likely to be the largest part of the cost, and if they choose a local company to provide the consulting services, they are at least keeping the money in Mexico instead of feeding the company coffers of Microsoft.
Uhm. If the expression is equivalent to saying "millions of dollars", then it is certainly not limited to 1-9 million. It means that he is referring to a large sum, without knowing the specifics at this point (which is also confirmed elsewhere in the article).
Okay, okay, so it is. :)
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
For many poor countries this may be as attractive, or even more attractive, than the initial hope of reducing the immediate costs.
As such, yes open source upset the current economical system, by shifting the balance from the typically US and Europe based large software companies, to service providers and developers locally (which benefits the country even if those people happen to be employed by multinationals like IBM etc.)
Ha! Like that would stop them. They're also forbidden to use a monopoly to restrict trade or to gain marketshare in another market, but look how many apologists came out saying that the anti-trust laws are stupid, Microsoft is a powerhouse yada yada.
perhaps on a more sub rosa level, with a few well-placed gifts, free vacations
What does sub rosa mean?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
(Disclaimer: I'm not native, but this should get the gist of it. I ran into a few phrases where I am nearly certain that the article had typos, but I don't have enough ability with the language to figure out what they were really trying to say. I left most of the run-on sentances as they were, but some I corrected.)
Local Government will avoid buying Windows
The technical coordinator of the capital's administration, Jose Barberan, informed [us?] that with the new computer system it will be possible to implement a database program that will be used in the replacement that will begin in the middle of the year.
by Alejandra Bordon
Mexico City, Mexico - (March 12, 2001) The information revolution, the seed of which was planted by a young programmer from Finland, Linus Torvalds, has arrived at the Distrito Federal's [Mexico's equivalent of Washington D.C., the area surrounding Mexico City] government.
The method: use Linux un all areas of the capitol's administration, an open, free [cost], and free [license] operating system created by Torvalds in 1991 and continually spreading over the entire world.
The objective: save 10's of millions of pesos [millions of dollars] in license fees for the use of commercial programs - like Windows - and use the money for poor-assistance programs that the Government leader, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, has initiated.
In charge of the project is Jose Barberan, Technical Coordinator of the capital administration, who informed [us] in an interview that Linux will be used un the program for the database replacement that will begin in the middle of the year.
The design of the program for the free [cost] replacement - for which the contributors have brought themselves up-to-date in their payment [?] - began in September 2000 and through several meetings headed by the Technical Coordination, is currently in the process of making legal [?] the computer goods.
Among the first steps, they have already taken the step of moving from commercial systems to open systems in some of the driver's-licence offices, where Linux is already working.
The goal, as Barberan explained in the interview, is to bring all of the systems in the City Government to Linux in one or two years, in a gradual process that avoids risks in the administration's operation.
Among the areas that in the near future will see their systems changed are the ones in charge of tax collection, databases that have to do with the transition and the new programs, as it is the one with the elderly [referring to the poverty programs].
Is it true that you plan to use and improve the Linux environment for use in the government?
Use and improve Linux? No, we aren't going to improve it ourselves, there are people all over the world improving it, but yes we want to bring the Distrito Federal [DF] Government's systems, as far as is possible and as long as the process doesn't interfere with basic functions, to open [source] systems, beginning with Linux as the OS. Not only Linux, but all of the free [cost] software that revolves around Linux systems.
The DF government, like all governments and like all companies, spends a significant amount of money on software, and we want to make this more efficient, because we have the instruction [? my guess is "we are an example to"] all areas of the government, of the most efficient way to set up the government, to create savings that will create something easy to understand that is more support for, say, support of the elderly, of the disabled, the single mothers, etc.
Will this be a substitute for Windows, which is that which is currently used in all of the offices?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yeah, except that (1) the guy in the article never said anything about 100 million pesos, he actually was talking about tens of millions of pesos, but that (2) the tens of millions of pesos comment was only his opinion, and (3) he admitted that he didn't have any exact numbers to back that opinion up.
Given that they're not even past the design stage of this project, and there's no way that he could figure the cost when it hasn't even been designed, the phrase "Whoop-dee-doo" comes to mind.
Cheers,
Exactly. Hand most of the savings to the rich. That's really going to cut poverty.
How many times do I have to tell people (I'm actually used to this kind of arrogance from Statesians, who figure that meaningful comparisons can't be made unless everything is in terms of US$) that for in-country comparisons, exchange rate is meaningless?!
:)
What you need to look at are in-Mexico prices of basic goods and services. Then you will know how much of a savings this conversion actually is, and how much their anti-poverty programmes will benefit. I mean, if it costs 10 000 pesos just to buy a loaf of bread, then a few hundred million pesos isn't really a whole lot. If, on the other hand, it costs 10 pesos to buy a loaf of bread, then a few hundred million pesos is a lot.
For a bunch of alleged math goobs, you programmer guys can be pretty out of it sometimes.
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
There's no divide at all. "Central America" isn't the name of a continent; it's the southernmost region of North America.
Just to reiterate, this is not the entire Mexican government that's making the switch (at least, not yet). This is only the government of Mexico City itself, not the whole nation.
Granted, this is still a cause for Much Rejoicing, but there's still a long way to go.
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What do you mean? Didnt you read the article? They are giving the money to the poor and seeing all us linux developers are the unwashed unpaid masses, that means us.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Troll, troll, troll!
Nothing on tv tonight, so I may as well reply.
Of course you have never paid for software. You are a 1337 d00d. Oh. Sorry. 0560d. My mistake. Regardless, you burned a few iso's.
Second, in reference to this comment, I installed RedHat 6.2 about a week after it came out. Haven't reinstalled it yet. Not on about six computers. While that doesn't necessarily compare to the needs of the Mexico City government, certainly if reinstallation were necessary (as you presume) I would have done so on at least one machine.
It's unlikely that the needs of the government are that high. If everything is going to paper, why does one need anything more than StarOffice? That's right, they don't. It has import filters that will take most of the crufty MS Word file format should they get that sort of document (and since M$ claims to be moving to XML for that sort of thing, does that matter anymore?)
In all likelihood (sp?), the government's needs are minimal. File sharing, setup, and maintenance is made trivial by either NFS or SMB (though more the former than the latter). Minimal installs are necessary for workstations. No services need to be run, and the machines could conceivably be no more than X-terminals. Sorry, but even though you think Terminal Services are grand, they can't hold a candle to the power of X-Terminals. Especially combined with NFS.
As far as licensing agreements go, Mexico City is part of a soverign nation (no, really, go look it up) that may or may not uphold license agreements written by or favorable towards the firm from Washington state. While not likely, it's not at all beyond their power to nationalize distribution of all M$ software.
Do you have a link to support your views about potential open source cost savings? While also on that post, do you have any examples of the software that the gov't of Mexico City may want to run that is provided only in a MS only shop?
About the limited savings you mention again... Do you honestly think that Mexico City doesn't have more and better economists, planners, and accountants than your 1ee7 d00d consulting company? Yes, both MS and Linux solutions require dedicated, capable admins. Duh. But in your rosy view of things (again, unsupported by any references) have you taken into account the cost of translation of the software? The speed of upgrades/fixes? The ability to DIY if your support contractor can't do these things or do them in a timely fashion? Have you considered the PR value of having a product in use created by a citizen of you own country (Miguel deIcaza) rather than some north of the border gringo?
Finally, did it ever occur to you that while saving tens (note the plural form. They are saving at least $20 million dollars, not $1-$9 million as you suggest) of millions of dollars may be insignificant to many corporations, countries, etc. it is not an insignificant sum for a city in a developing country?
No. I thought not. Now go away troll.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Tell that to the judge as he ships your butt off to federal prison.
The law is the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977, or FCPA. Where I work, we get an annual briefing on this law and business ethics in general.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
It's really not our fault, we Americans just got stuck with a really crappy name for our country. So we just had to name ourselves after the best word in the name of our country.
_____________
I don't want free as in beer. I just want free beer.
Why even burn CDs? In the best case you have network cards that are bootable off the net. Set up an install server and you just switch the computer on to install.
In the next best case you just have a floppy for the install.
This isnt Windows. It isnt essential for every user to have a CD to ensure they can do their monthly reinstalls.
How many times do I have to tell people (I'm actually used to this kind of arrogance from Statesians, who figure that meaningful comparisons can't be made unless everything is in terms of US$) that for in-country comparisons, exchange rate is meaningless?!
Very often since some people will never get it...
From the article -
Under the FCPA, U.S. jurisdiction over corrupt payments to foreign officials depends upon whether the violator is an "issuer,"
a "domestic concern," or a foreign national or business.
An "issuer" is a corporation that has issued securities that have been registered in the United States or who is required to file
periodic reports with the SEC. A "domestic concern" is any individual who is a citizen, national, or resident of the United
States, or any corporation, partnership, association, joint-stock company, business trust, unincorporated organization, or sole
proprietorship which has its principal place of business in the United States, or which is organized under the laws of a State of
the United States, or a territory, possession, or commonwealth of the United States.
Issuers and domestic concerns may be held liable under the FCPA under either territorial or nationality jurisdiction principles.
For acts taken within the territory of the United States, issuers and domestic concerns are liable if they take an act in
furtherance of a corrupt payment to a foreign official using the U.S. mails or other means or instrumentalities of interstate
commerce. Such means or instrumentalities include telephone calls, facsimile transmissions, wire transfers, and interstate or
international travel. In addition, issuers and domestic concerns may be held liable for any act in furtherance of a corrupt
payment taken outside the United States. Thus, a U.S. company or national may be held liable for a corrupt payment
authorized by employees or agents operating entirely outside the United States, using money from foreign bank accounts, and
without any involvement by personnel located within the United States.
Prior to 1998, foreign companies, with the exception of those who qualified as "issuers," and foreign nationals were not
covered by the FCPA. The 1998 amendments expanded the FCPA to assert territorial jurisdiction over foreign companies and
nationals. A foreign company or person is now subject to the FCPA if it causes, directly or through agents, an act in
furtherance of the corrupt payment to take place within the territory of the United States. There is, however, no requirement
that such act make use of the U.S. mails or other means or instrumentalities of interstate commerce.
Finally, U.S. parent corporations may be held liable for the acts of foreign subsidiaries where they authorized, directed, or
controlled the activity in question, as can U.S. citizens or residents, themselves "domestic concerns," who were employed by
or acting on behalf of such foreign-incorporated subsidiaries.
Surfing the net and other cliches...
Surfing the net and other cliches...
(Who Meta-Meta-Moderates the Meta-Moderators?)
Over 1/4 of the population of Mexico lives in Mexico City. With 24 million people officially, and an estimated 30 million unofficially, Mexico City is the largest city in the world. Its population is greater than that of many countries, or most US states.
And this makes Mexico different from other North American countries how?
Well, first and foremost, Mexico isn't a North American country...
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Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
American companies are forbidden to bribe foreign governemtns, etc. This is actually a matter of dispute with some European countries whose companies are not thusly restricted.
Chris
Surfing the net and other cliches...
Surfing the net and other cliches...
(Who Meta-Meta-Moderates the Meta-Moderators?)
As a guy who took a semester of Mexican History in college and loved it. I can tell you that Mexico's version of Graft and Embezzlement makes American Graft and Embezzlement look like a kid taking a buck or two out of his mom's purse.
It's that bad.
Linux O Muerte!
Well, the people running the projects are the friends I worked with a few years ago (Patrick Vielle and Jose Barberan). I am glad the government has followed up on this.
I was in Mexico City this weekend trying to get the eMexico project to adopt free software as well. You can read the paper I presented here: http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/emexico.html
Miguel.
Nope:b .h tm
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/fcpa/dojdoc
"Foreign Corrupt Practices Act"
From the article:
The FCPA makes it unlawful to bribe foreign government officials to obtain or retain business.
Surfing the net and other cliches...
Surfing the net and other cliches...
(Who Meta-Meta-Moderates the Meta-Moderators?)
Usage of linux will save Government money
The information revolution, whose seed was planted by the young Finlandic programmer Linus Torvalds, has reached the district federal governer.
The reason: they wish to use Linux in all the areas of the capital's administration. Linux is an open source system, free and Free, created by Torvalds in 1991, and has spread around the world.
The end: to save tens of millions of pesos that would be spent paying for commercial software -like Windows - and to use the saved funds to pay for programs to combat poverty.
The project was an idea of the capital administration technical co-ordinator, José Barberán, who told interviewers that linux was used in the program for the database of replacements that would begin in the middle of the week.
The program's design for the free replacement - in exchange for which the contributors bring their payments up to date - began in September 2000. After several meetings headed by the Technical Coordination, the program is now in a phase of bidding for the computer hardware.
After taking the first steps, Barberán went to change the commercial systems to the open-source one in some offices. The goal, according to the following interview, is to change all the City's Governement systems City to Linux in one or two years, in a gradual process that avoids risks in the operation of the administration.
Some of the areas that will see changes in the future are those in charge of the collection of taxes, and databases that have to do with transport, and the new anti-poverty programs.
It is true that they will try to improve Linux to use it in the government?
To improve Linux, no, we are not going to try to improve it, for many around the world are improving it continously. But we want to take to the Federal District's systems as far as possible and ensure that basic functions are compatible with free software. It's not just the Linux OS - it's all the free software that makes Linux what it is.
The government of DF, like all governments and like all companies, spends a large amount of very money on software, and we want to be more efficient with that because we have the instruction that all the areas of the government, of a complete government system, to produce savings that will benefit everyone.
Will you be able to replace the omnipresent Windows, the OS that is used in all the offices?
If we're careful, yes. Windows is not the only system that is used - the Government of the Federal District uses other operating systems in many important machines. To be replaced are all operating systems for which a fees are paid. Then we will advancing towards the use of open-software in all areas. Taking precautions, ofcourse, to ensure that the changes don't interrupt the operating parts of the government.
Isn't it risky to change the systems?
It is a problem of qualifications, and to make a transitionary program to upgrade - in an orderly manner - the things we do today to use the new systems
In what level of the process is the project?
It is currently in the design phase, because we also need to redesign the Government's computer structure.
Does this open source licence mean that the creators are not paid for use?
Yes. And it also means that we have access to the all the programs' source code. So we can adapt it to the needs of our systems. This is something that we can't do with commercial systems, which don't grant access to the source code. This is a very important point: the access to the source codes that allows us, with skilled programmers, to adapt the systems to our needs.
How much will the government save?
I don't have an exact figure, but it is a lot of money. Many tens of millions of pesos are spent, unnecessarily in my opinion, on software.
The whole point of Wine is to reimplement the MS libraries that come with the OS. Anything that is redistributed with the app is not a problem (app's license covers the use). Not that Wine is really usable without a full Windows install yet.
I too work in health care and it seems that the main reason my IT department likes outside vendors (and Microsoft) is because they can shift the responsibility (and blame) to someone else. SQL Server is broken? Blame Microsoft. An important application is broken? Blame the vendor.
That attitude really irks me, because things don't get fixed until several rounds of finger pointing between the the IT department, the app vendor and sometime the OS vendor. Sometimes the problem never gets fixed and the users have to continue to suffer. At least with open source you can attempt to D.I.Y...
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You think being a MIB is all voodoo mind control? You should see the paperwork!
A man who wants nothing is invincible
It's very nice to see this (as I mentioned in another post).
The savings are going to be significant; not only do they not have to spend the annual licensing fees for the useless OS's, they can also need not upgrade their hardware as often.
HOWEVER: With the old Mexican regime's propensity towards graft and embezzlement, my concern is that 'the poor' will be redefined to be 'friends of the bureaucrats'.
two cents worth
d.valued
Ruling The World, One Moron At A Time(tm)
"As Kosher As A Bacon-Cheeseburger"(tmp)
I used to be someone else. Now I'm someone better.
Real life is underrated.
Who will prevail? At this point, it's difficult to tell. Some detractors would argue that free software presents an undue intrusion into existing economic model. Open source code is a revolutionary alterance in the existing capacity of software distribution; it alters the capacity for user freedom in ways that our current economic structure and techonological understanding may not be prepared to accomodate. Perhaps foibles in this untested process may condemn Linux to an ultimate footnote amongst economic history.
Supporters, on the other hand, say that Linux is an important step forward for both computer manufacturers and the government. With previous informational "protection" schemes, users could not take advantage of the most important technological benefits gained from modern-day information research. Open source, they say, opens the proverbial floodgates by bringing knowledge and technology out of the laboratories and into the homes of the every-day user.
There is some probably some merit to both viewpoints. Certainly,the government as a whole will encounter some friction as it shifts to accomodate the power capacity and access provided by Linux. However, the end result may be worth the infrastructural shifts; Windows and MacOS may not be as structurally capable as their newer cousin.
Will Linux sink or swim in the government? The question is still up in the air; with many unique forces and viewpoints at work, we'll likely see many interesting challenges and confrontations for the pioneers in the field. Whatever the final result is, it's sure to give the key players on all sides of the issue a trial by fire.
Yu Suzuki
Yu Suzuki
Deamcast. It's thinking.
It might be more than a coincidence that Miguel de Icaza (from Gnome fame) was a highly placed computer consultant for the political party from which the City Major belongs to.
And that doesn't include the loss of the ability to run the thousands of Windows only applications or the additional cost of configuring the Linux machines to support vertical market Windows applications -- it can be an ugly world in Windows to begin with for many of them.
Most models assume tech support and maintenance (software, hardware, etc.). Even if the numbers for hiring Linux professionals, a rare and relatively expensive breed still, are equal to that for hiring Windows trained professionals (of which decent ones are somewhat rare themselves) the savings in licensing are not horribly significant.
Where do the alledged savings come from then? Better management of the system (if you have a good sys-ad it will be cheaper, but you will need to pay the sys-ad well)? Longer life for the hardware (will only be proved in a workstation environment 3 to 4 years down the road)?
Large organizations usually have some kind of site license that includes updates and a subscription fee.
Actually, if you read the entire article (but i think you got confused), the benefits of free software (being able to modify, and redistribute said modifications) is part of the features that the interview mentions.
I do not know if that is on the web version, but it was definetly in the printed version (which also included a mini-FAQ on the whole Linux thing).
miguel.
(Loose Translation Follows) Local Government Will Avoid Buying Windows The Technical Coordinatos of the city administration, José barberán, informed that with the new computer system (sic) they can do the database program that will be used for the replacement of car's plates that will begin at the middle of the year.
/End of article/
/.rs who suggested the change to the city government of I-don't-remember-which-one US city who got an audit from Microsoft a few months ago and didn't have all the licenses ?
By Alejandra Bordon
Mexico City, Mexico (March 12, 2001)
The informatic revolution which seed was planted by a young finnish programmer, Linus Torvalds, has come to the Distrito Federal's Government.
The media: to use Linux in all the areas of the city administration, an open operative system, free and with freedom, created by torvalds in 1991 and more disseminated every day all around the world.
The goal: To save tens of millions of pesos (1 dlls = 9.65 pesos) in the payment of services in the use of commercial programs - like Window - and instead use those resources to support the programs against poverty that have been put in operation by the Chief of Government (kind of a Super-Mayor), Andres Manuel López Obrador.
José Barberán, Technical Coordinator for the city administration is in charge of the project, who informed in an interview that Linux will be used in the database program of the replacement of the car's plates which will begin in the middle of the year.
The design of the program for the free replacement of plates will be free - if the cars owners don't have any due payments in the tenencia (a yearly car possession's tax) began since september of 2000 after several meetings headed by the technical Coordination, is in the stage of licitation of the computer goods.
FYI
The government of Mexico City is a from a left-wing party, and it's in the second administration from it. In regards to the IT departmen, there was a scandal three or four years ago when the first government of this then-opposition party assumed, when they found some "shadow opperations" between some people of the last government and IBM salespeople, but not in the same level as the Argentinean case. Don't remember more especifics by the moment, but I think IBM had to pay something back, but I'm not sure.
In the other hand, it's the same city government who doesn't want to be under the federal summer-time/energy savings schedule (I don't remember the US exact term for this.) which is more a populist stand than for technical reasons.
Now my comments:
Somebody said: "Now, what is free software going to do except put professional programmers out of business? Then they'll be some of the poor needing a hand-out. It's self-defeating; you can't help the economic status of people by destroying the economy they live in!"
What kind of moron says that ? They're replacing WINDOWS, the last time I looked, WINDOWS is not a mexican-developed OS, so who is affected by this ?
In fact, it's more probable they'll need a little more programmers to do this.
No, giving away money it's not a way to fight poverty, but stopping giving away money to some companies when you can avoid it by using free alternatives and spend that money otherwise is not a stupid thing. Sheesh!
Somebody said "damn commies" ? What difference is it between this actually happening replacement of Windows to the countless proposals of
Get real!
I tried, I really tried to translate this but the reporter's writing is horrible. Even if you're not a Spanish speaker you can tell that she writes these loooong sentences without punctuation. She also has lots incomplete sentences. The article is very hard to read, even in Spanish. Don't blame babelfish for the weird sentences.
Rather than translating this whole aberration, I will try to summarize the important points, below.
You can read the partial translation at: http://gala.cime.net:8080/~ciurana/linux_in_df.htm l. I added some comments to the partial translation where they would help clarify context (i.e. what's the current peso-dollar exchange rate).
Take care and cheers!
Ehttp://eugeneciurana.com | http://ciurana.eu
I suppose you meant this as a joke, but is it really fair to dump on Americans for being monolingual? One cannot truly learn a language in isolation from native speakers, and there are few to be found here. And this is a damn big country. Go a couple hundred miles south from London, and you're in France. Go a couple hundred miles south from Washington, and you're in Virginia.
I have studied Spanish; I could leer el jodido artículo with about as much difficulty as thick legalese; but I speak Spanish just well enough to get my nose busted if I ever tried to use it in Mexico.
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Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delenda est Windoze
Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
Sorry... Americans who constantly bitch about corruption, or 'freedom', or 'oppression' in this country by comparing it to the rest of the world really, really piss me off. They clearly have no idea how good we have it when compared to everyone else. The Mexican idea of 'corruption and graft' involves doing things like telling the Secretary of the Treasury to transfer money directly from the Treasury to swiss accounts. The Argentine idea of 'corruption and graft' is having their Secretary of the Interior sell their equivalent of Yellowstone- and pocketing the money herself! Yes, we have our problems. Yes, campaign finance sucks. But there is a huge leap from "the decisions of elected officials are influenced by large corporations" to "government officials who don't steal millions of dollars at a time are extremely unusual."
IAAL,BIANLY
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just to make 'tens of of millions of pesos' more easily understood in US terms, 1 peso ~= 10 cents. 10 pesos ~= 1 US Dollar. However it is converted, this is still a big gain in money and of quality for the Mexican government
Well, the peso isn't that bad. ;-) Here's a link to a universal currency converter I found via google (I don't know how up-to-the-second the rates are): www.xe.net/ucc/ . According to it 100,000,000 pesos is 10,449,320.79 USD, which is a non-trivial amount.
One question that springs to mind is what distro they're planning on using. Connectiva seems likely becuase of it's internationalization for Spanish-speaking countries, but hey, maybe the head techie dude likes Slack... :-)
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In case you didn't notice, Mexico has a new "regime" now. Give them a chance.
I was struck in your transaltion by a phrase -- "free and Free" -- for "gratuito y libre".
It's neat how Spanish captures this distinction so much more succinctly than English.
Think how much energy and confusion could be saved if English captured this distinction as well as Spanish.
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100,000,000.00 Mexico Pesos =
10,449,320.79 United States Dollars
Not exactly small change, considering the cost of living there. You could probably keep 10,000 people fed and clothed pretty nicely @ $1000 each per year.
How big is Mexico City? Try the 3rd largest city in the WORLD, with 18 million people, and you begin to see where the savings could add up.