Whisperings from Indrema

Bill Kendrick writes "John Gildred, CEO of Indrema, participated in an Indrema IRC chat today and gave folks a much-needed update on the L600 console and the company's current state off affairs. Unfortunately, the Big Bad Recession is hitting them as well. John says: "We have experienced our share of dry spells in this difficult economy lately. The situation has not improved. The reality is that we have one last chance to turn it around. There is a plan in motion to obtain interim funding, but [then] I will not have a conclusion until end of this month or early next month." After the update, we had a Q&A session and he mentioned the CPU is now spec'd at 750MHz, and will use a GeForce3. And if they do go belly up, they'll probably release a lot of their code as "LGPL or the like." I've already got his update online at my Indrema fan site."

Comments

As much as I hate to say it...

[DESADE]

Did anybody really expect any other outcome? This was a very cool ideal, but I never thought it could work in today's market. That's probably more a testimate to the state of the industry rather than the validity of their plan, but true nonetheless. Too bad either way.

Re:As much as I hate to say it...

[Zico]

Yeah, I'm not sure why anybody with deep pockets would invest in them, even moreso with all the budget-tightening and biz plan-reevaluating going on these days. Things like this need economy of scale to keep the prices as low and thus the margins as high as possible (unless they're planning on taking a loss on each machine and making it up by licensing games/services — but that runs into the huge problem of what the incentive would be for a gamemaker to port to this platform), but what reason is there to think that there's a large audience for such a system given the competition? What games are going to be available for this system to draw people in?

Cheers,

Re:As much as I hate to say it...

[vidarh]

No, but April/May 2000 was... I know. My company just went through second round financing a few weeks before Nasdaq started shaking and then plunged deeper and deeper.

You don't typically get the VC jackpot that early, and most VC financed companies go through multiple financing rounds before they can stand on their own feet.

Too much competition already...

[Drakino]

Better they leave the game early instead of going under after pushing a few thousand units through manufacturing. The Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube and XBox will have enough of a hard time keeping in there as it is. The Dreamcast console just proves this. And a company who has no estlablished roots to live off of like Microsoft, or who has never done a console already like Sony and Nintendo expects to survive?

The XBox will fill the need for a PC console, the GameCube will hold over the kiddies, and the PS2 will hold over everyone else while the Dreamcast fades away.

Re:Too much competition already...

[nathanh]

... a company who has no estlablished roots to live off of like Microsoft, or who has never done a console already like Sony and Nintendo expects to survive?

Why not? The Colecovision came out of nowhere - from a company who originally built water tanks and snow mobiles - to briefly dominate the home console market. And this was despite competition from the well known and (then) hugely successful Atari.

Of course, this was back during the videogame boom and the Colecovision was clearly better than the competition. The Indrema is basically the same hardware as the Xbox only without the developer backing and without the bigname titles. I don't disagree with you: the Indrema looks like a dead duck. I'm just saying that "established roots" or prior success has little to do with it. History proves this over and over again in the videogames arena.

Re:Too much competition already...

[Drakino]

Why not? The Colecovision came out of nowhere - from a company who originally built water tanks and snow mobiles - to briefly dominate the home console market. And this was despite competition from the well known and (then) hugely successful Atari.

I was meaning estlablished roots as in having a busniess to survive off of. Microsoft can easially afford to have the XBox flop for a while after launch since they have other income. But isn't the company building the Indrema a new company?

Re:Too much competition already...

[MrBogus]

Coleco actually wasn't doing too well at the time. Their last big hit was the Davy Crockett coonskin hat, and that was in the 60s. They were best known for selling plastic snow sleds for $5.

Then they hit with both the Colecovision and Cabbage Patch dolls at just about the same time. After those went away, they had nothing to fall back on, and quietly went out of business.

It looks like they diddn't understand the..

[Milliken]

dynamics of the console market. no company who has successfully developed and marketed a console unit has made money off of the actual console - they make their cash from the software licensing agreements for games produced to run on their systems. Xbox for instance will lose money for microsoft - but - they will make that loss back (and more.. much more) through software licensing agreements. linux may be a superior operating system in terms of power, but admit it - linux is a useful tool to corporations ONLY so that you - the developer - has a way to develop code that they will steal from you. Linux is cool for servers, but get over the idea that a 'linux console' will ever work - especially when that $300 for a console box still means a loss for any company selling/distributing one. just my two cents.

Re:It looks like they diddn't understand the..

[SubtleNuance]

. no company who has successfully developed and marketed a console unit has made money off of the actual console - they make their cash from the software licensing agreements for games produced to run on their systems

I know this is standard /. opinion, and looking at the specs of indrema/xbox I understand how this may be possible (that PC hardware is not specific to gameconsoles & there is 'waste' incurred in hardware design in order to maintain a 'standard' design that Indrema&M$ need to fire up Linux/Windows on these things)

How is it that $300 wont build your DC or PS? They are very specific/dedicated devices, with economies of scale I dont understand why it is unreasonable to make them for ~$100-150 or so.

Im not an EE, so im not that certain on the details.. i just want to hear/see some proof outside of this repeated /. dogma.

Like the $ony PR-written 'Hussein stockpiling PS2s for weapons' BS, i think the idea that 'the device is sold at a loss' adds to the mysticism(sp) of the device and gives the impression of high-tech & power... I believe it may be a self-serving myth the console types like to repeat.

Re:It looks like they diddn't understand the..

[hattig]

Assume that the device uses a cool version of an Athlon processor - say a mobile Athlon 750MHz. This could cost, ooh, about $40 in quantity in a few months time. Add to this the GeForce3 chip, which in quantity, and in a few months time, etc, could be down to $100. Add decent sound. Add DVD drive $50, and so on.

It all adds up. Even taking the hardware alone, without development costs, etc, you could be looking at $400+. If they were confident of selling 1m Indrema consoles though, then economies of scale kick in and the price goes down to $300 a console. But after 4 months on the market, they have to reduce the consoles price to keep interest high. Selling at $200. Still making a loss.

However, by this time 750MHz mobile Athlons could be even cheaper - maybe even bin parts that couldn't make 900MHz, and would normally be chucked. This could reduce the cost even more.

Re:It looks like they diddn't understand the..

[I_redwolf]

You and the people that responded are the ones without the understanding. You have the whole concept utterly wrong. Indrema used linux and cpu specs (before X-box declared anything btw) to lower the cost of a console but making it powerful at the same time. They also figured that if people could develop for it freely gaming companies would see the platform as perfect for developing games, advertisements in magazines (just like cpu) etc etc.

That's what Indrema was trying to do.. and they wouldn't have lost a dime on machines as cpu prices continue to plummet and they'd gain a large audience.

I wanted to write a game for Indrema (because I wouldn't have to pay for any stupid licenses); Unlike Microsoft, Sony, Dreamcast etc. I won't buy an XBOX specifically because I'm not gonna pay licensing fees to write a game, samething for all the others.

This console provided the 1 chance that Linux had at gaming and troll's, fud spreaders and generally uninformed people such as yourself wish to do that in. Just think before you talk.

I also don't care if you don't run unix/linux/freebsd or whatever. We were here before you, so you can take a seat.

I want my Indrema

[SEWilco]

I've been waiting for two holiday shopping seasons for a Linux-compatible DVD player and the Indrema looks like a great excuse for getting one. I am looking forward to all the other stuff it will do.

Yet another reason why Indrema will not survive...

[Junior J. Junior III]

They've just about guaranteed that they won't get support from the Linux community -- offering to GPL software *if* they go belly up is sure to guarantee that they *will*.

They ought to offer to GPL their software if they do *well*.

---JJJIII

I rang, you rang, we all rang for orangutang!

Argh... not MHz wars AGAIN!

[mduell]

From the article: ...the CPU is now spec'd at 750MHz, and will use a GeForce3...

Gee, can anyone think of an upcoming console that has a 733MHz processor and a GeForce3? Bingo! The XBox. Yes, folks, I'm afraid its another MHz war... (and it could be a good one, because appearently they havent decided if they are going to go with AMD or Intel, but they do mention that they want a fast FSB, so it will probably be AMD :))

Mark Duell

Re:Argh... not MHz wars AGAIN!

[Osty]

Gee, can anyone think of an upcoming console that has a 733MHz processor and a GeForce3? Bingo! The XBox.

Just a few points.

1. The XBox does not use a GeForce3. It uses the "NV25" chipset, which is a generation ahead of the GeForce3 (which is the NV20 chipset)
2. It's only a MHz war if both sides participate, which brings us to ...
3. Don't expect to see Microsoft changing system specs now. They're too far along to change any specs if they want to make the upcoming Christmas season. On top of that, it doesn't really matter if they change their specs at all, because the current hardware will best most PC games out there because unlike a PC, you can go all the way down to the metal with an XBox and not have to worry about incompatibilities.

Indrema in trouble

[eyez]

I've been following the Indrema for some time, on the mailing lists and et cetera, and It seems that the real problem with the Indrema is the lack of advertising. Almost NOBODY knows about the Indrema, and while I am supportive of Indrema as an idea and a company, it's hard to expect this to turn out good.

Though, There are real problems involved in this, and very legitimate reasons why they haven't been able to advertise (some of the investors apparently didn't want word getting out until things were ready, or something like that). It's a tough market, and indrema really had a very supportive following.

Let's hope for the best, eh? *crosses fingers*

Indrema at E3

[BIGJIMSLATE]

Indrema's only chance of survival is if they make a showing, a STRONG showing at this years E3 Expo. And as of now, Indrema is NOT listed as an exhibit at E3. Hm...not a good idea. Not a good idea at all.

Why aren't they there? Who the hell knows? Its only the biggest gaming expo in the country with tens of thousands of members of the press reporting on the biggest and best things to come in the next 12 months of console gaming. Its only the expo where Bill Gates is going to have his chance to "sell" his machine to the public, and for Nintendo to try and regain people who were displeased with the N64.

At last years E3, I had the luck of watching Konami show their Metal Gear Solid 2 trailer, and almost a year later, people are STILL asking to borrow my promo dvd that its on. E3 can make that much of an impression on gamers, and Indrema is ignoring it.

I want this console to survive, TRUST me, I do. But there's no way it can unless it gets some press. And if its not mentioned in any gaming mags, barely any websites, and almost none of the print/tv media, where are these people even going to HEAR about it? Unfortunately, your average gamer isn't a /.'er, and most of them have almost no knowledge of the system at all.

If anyone working on the Indrema is reading this...REGISTER for E3! What have you got to lose? You'll only be showing your hardware off to a good 30,000-40,000 software developers, investors, and members of the press, who are people with video cameras just itching to upload the coolest videos they shot that day.

best hope for indrema

[geomcbay]

Face it, the indrema is never going to be a mass-market console. There's no easy way for them to get out of the chicken and egg problem of developers vs number of installed users. Developers aren't beating down the door to get at the technology because its pretty much just PC tech (as is XBox..but indrema doesn't have Microsoft's marketing power, or hundreds of millions of dollars to spend on launch). And since the only games available for it will be PC ports (the best of which will also be ported to the XBox), the users arent going to bite.

Indrema's only real hope, IMO, is to position itself not as yet another console, but as a cool TV-capable programmable device for hobbyist programmers and the tech savvy. (TiVO-ish functionality, which they seem to be doing to some degree, is good as well). While there is hobbyist development (both via pure reverse engineering and illegally obtaining developer software) for other consoles, having one where it is fully encouraged would be pretty cool. With such a system, there's sure to be ports of cool emulators and small but perhaps creative indie games.

In short, Indrema should position itself more as Yaroze and less as Playstaton. Of course, this may be a losing battle too, as it would require selling the hardware for a profit most likely (since there won't be many distribution royalties to be had)... But at least they would have some glimmer of hope. A pure console play is doomed, whether the thing runs linux or not (hint: 99.99% of console buyers don't know anything about linux other than the human interest stories they read on some tech news sites).

Re:best hope for indrema

[Jace of Fuse!]

The Indrema, for better or worse, really only had the interest of the Linux community anyway.

If developers started bashing X-Box bits around with Linux instead of the Windows 2000 Kernal, the Indrema's only selling point would be lost. (And that could happen anyway).

The worst part is, that history shows that people tend to focus on Duality. A single pair of opposing forces. This Yin-Yang tendecy is reflected everywhere in most cultures, and it's been ever apparent in the video game market.

There are at any given time only two real contenders, sometimes 3 with two strong and one sinking fast.

(SNes, Genesis, TG-16)
(Game Boy, Game Gear, Turbo Express)
(N64, Playstation, Saturn)

Now we have Dreamcast, Game Cube, Playstation 2, X-Box, and Indrema(pfft).

There will only be two that do well, and I have two sets of answers.

The first is the ones I'm cheering for, which would be the Game Cube and Dreamcast, but I'm kind of a video game purist, so I know this isn't a realistic guess.

The realistic view is the Game Cube and the X-Box, mostly because Sony is really screwing up the Playstation 2 in the same way Sega screwed up the Saturn. Dreamcast has Sega killing it, and even if 3rd party Dreamcast units do start to show up it will be too little too late. That's not to say if you have a Dreamcast already that there won't be some awesome new games for it, there are many to come, but it's days sadly ARE numbered.

With a market this saturated, Indrema never had a chance. Not even if the market were booming. And even if it were booming, there could be as many as three doing really well, and three still may do well, but it would be the first time. It's VERY unrealistic to even hope that the Indrema might be one of those three in that off chance.

It's more realistic to think that the Dreamcast would, esspecially if 3rd parties begin producing DVD Capable Dreamcast boxes (a real possibility, actually.)

This is a long winded post, even for me, but I'll finish it by giving my quick points as to why I think the Playstation 2 will ultimately not do as well as the Playstation 1.

* The PS1 is cheap and plays all Playstation 1 games.
* The PS2's DVD capabilities are disappointing to many and just adequate for the rest. DVD enthusiasts already have a real DVD player, though. So DVD isn't a selling point anymore.
* Sony still relies on 3rd parties for the majority of their best titles (what few outstanding ones there are, anyway). Most of devs are largely displeased with the PS2 for either liscense reasons or technical reasons. Nintendo always has Link, Mario, and Samus, and Microsoft already has potentially every dev who has ever touched DirectX.
* The PS2's high price will come down, but it's not going to get any easier to develope for, not even if Sony upsthe memory specs in a revision of the console as many people seem to suspect they may do.
* Lastly - Let them up the specs. That would piss off the people who already own one. You can divide a market with a new console, but NEVER try to divide a market with the same console. Non-technical people don't buy into "system specs" on a game console.

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

They're marketing it all wrong

[Stick666]

It looks like they're trying to go head to head with the major consoles, which won't work. They'll have to market the things that this console over other consoles that will appeal to people such as:

• Free games. Everyone loves something for nothing. Games are far too expensive these days, parents may buy it just to save money. Kids may get it cos' they have no money.
• You can make games for it. There are absolutly loads of teens out there who would love start programming games. I first started programming by making games on my old sinclair spectrum. This is an affordable way for kids to do this.
• It doesn't just have to be a games console. I'm sure this thing can do more than just play games. Maybe it could be advertised as a cheap pc if it has the right software.
• Start calling it a hackers system more. All the kids will think they can break into NASA with it, lol.

If they want the mass public to take notice they are gonna have to market this thing as something that has never been seen before.

Re:They're marketing it all wrong

[hattig]

Free games

Yeah. Tux Racer. Smiletris. Kickin', man!

You can make games for it

Well, provide a decent programming language for it then. (decent as in usable by people with ideas, but not necessarily programming skills).

Of course, it could easily come with all of the free software like Gimp, KOffice, etc, that would push this console into the home computer market.

I started programming on the Amstrad CPC, in BASIC, then ASM. However, I feel sorry for the person whose first game programming attempts ever have to be in C. Maybe something like Blitz Basic (old Amiga software being revived for the PC soon) would be a nice thing to have. Even AMOS. Even if it isn't all powerful, and limits people to slow 3D or 2D games.

I agree that they can't market it as "yet another games console with possible internet access and duff DVD support", it does need something extra. Maybe they could team up with Sky TV in the UK to try and get an Indrema embedded in every Sky box - Sky are already offering TiVos for their subscribers.

Re:They're marketing it all wrong

[Mr_Silver]

Maybe something like Blitz Basic (old Amiga software being revived for the PC soon) would be a nice thing to have. Even AMOS. Even if it isn't all powerful, and limits people to slow 3D or 2D games.

Blitz Basic for the PC is available now from www.blitzbasic.com. Its also out in the shops in the UK but only starting to appear in the US. Its also pretty damn fast and easy to write games for.

--

Re:They're marketing it all wrong

[stx23]

Maybe they could team up with Sky TV in the UK to try and get an Indrema embedded in every Sky box - Sky are already offering TiVos for their subscribers.

If any console is embedded into the digibox, it will be the Dreamcast, considering Pace are one of Sky's main suppliers, and they are the ones teaming with Sega.
Also, I was under the impression that the MySky/TiVo package wouldn't be available for another few months, as you need a new dish(with multiple transponders) to use it.

If they fail

[hattig]

It would be a shame if Indrema were to fail in their dream of creating a Linux based console, however if it fails it would be nice if both the detailed hardware specifications as well as the code were open sourced. This would leave it open for another well funded company to come in and pick up where they left off.

But most of us here can see that there isn't much chance for Indrema. The OS may be free, but hey, it will be free for the XBox as well as far as Microsoft is concerned (until M$ are finally split up (if ever...) and hardware goes the other way from the software). Games developers are backing the dead certs now:

- XBox (except Japanese market)
- Gamecube
- PS2 (looks like it could come in 3rd at this rate)

There is not a market for more than 2 consoles, never mind 3. Indrema reminds me of the old 3D0 - a good machine in its time (94/95) but a combination of PSX, N64 and Saturn killed it off early.

Also I have doubts about the GeForce being used. What would be good is an updated Kyro II with T&L, and running at 250MHz. It wouldn't cost as much to use, its efficiency is surely something that Linux afficionados would love, and with a few small updates to make it more powerful (shouldn't be too hard to do) it would make a good choice. It might even be easy to get Dreamcast games ported as well, as the graphics chipset has is derived from that used in the Dreamcast. That would give it some real backing.

The Indrema has to launch soon though, in less than 6 months, otherwise it is too late. $300 for Gamecube or Indrema. I know what I would choose.

Re:If they fail

[hattig]

Nintendo have dropped their stupid "cuddly games only" policy. There will now be some pretty kick ass games on the GameCube, violent, bloodthirsty games at last. Sega write good games, and these will appear on the GameCube.

Doom, yeah. Even Quake II isn't big news these days. Sure, the console could come with a games disk, with custom Quake levels and Doom levels running within Quake and Doom (as the originals are Copyrighted, however there are tonnes of freeware levels available).

Indrema at most will be a niche console. It will be the console that in 2 years time people will show to their friends, and they will think that it is neat, then they will ask if it plays {big hit game}... No.

PC hardware sucks. All force and no thought. Where is the elegance? GeForce 3 is not elegant, just brutish, hot, and nasty (average picture quality, etc). x86 is old, decrepit, hot and inefficient. The 400MHz custom PPC that IBM is developing for Nintendo will probably match the 750MHz x86 that Indrema uses, and the GameCube is going to provide developers with a nice software copying preventer, in a custom disk format (small DVD) - you might get the data off of the original, but where do you write a copy?

I don't want M$ to succeed at all - the XBox is all of those bad things I mentioned above. Indrema is as well, but not proprietary (they think that they will get NVidia to write Linux drivers for the GeForce 3 and open source them? Ho ho ho). I would like to see Indrema do reasonably well though, but they haven't got the clout, marketing nous, or fervent following.

a small possiblility

[small_dick]

...is to go after the NC market.

look, they have almost no chance at all in the console market...they are competing with MS, and MS has the desktop and a huge warchest.

i'd go poke for an alliance with IBM, Sun or possibly a big contract with the US gov't or some large school districts...even Brasil or France.

push, push push the truth -- that "going microsoft" binds a company to an endless, horrific upgrade path, not to mention the massive licensing fees, etc. None with Indrema.

you've got to demo a turnkey mid-size office system -- running nfs or samba, staroffice, a few legacy windows machines. pound home ease of use, reliablilty, no license fees, low cost in the door.

but i have to say...no NC company has survived, and no console can compete in this market.

bye - bye indrema. i would have loved to see you make it, but there is just no way.

Linux/console

[labil]

Well, it isn't really a console, but Nokia is doing some pretty neat stuff with their Media Terminal which is based on Linux/Mozilla... http://www.nokia.com/multimedia/mediaterminal.html Playing Quake 3 with the remote was kind of wierd though :)

Oh please...

[supabeast!]

Indrema was bound for disaster from the start. They never had enough funding or connections with developers to go anywhere. Their only saving grace was that plent of VC suckers were willing to throw money at a Linux company.

If Indrema had wanted to do this right, they would have needed backing from someone with oodles of money from day one. They also would have needed to chase down japanese game developers like crazy, because a console will go nowhere without them.

Indrema was just another product of the dotcom mess. It would have been great to see them succeed, but we all knew it was just a pipe dream.

Re:Oh please...

[Enoch Root]

Thank you. I agree totally with your assessment. It may be harsh, but it's the whole truth. People: using Linux is a technological decision, not a business vision! Anybody trying to sound revolutionary by claiming otherwise is just trying to lure clueless VCs into throwing money in the Linux pit.

There are too many...

[Amigori]

consoles either out or coming out. As a lifetime gamer, I've seen this happen once before in the 80's and it wasn't too pretty, but I don't think the same will happen this time around. Personally, I would wait until I see any games that interest me before I would consider buying an Indrema box. I don't have the money to just buy it for the geek cool factor.

Playstation 2 is similar, IMO. Sony only has one game that I'm interested in for Playstation 2 and that's Metal Gear Solid 2. SSX is pretty cool, but its not enough to warrant purchasing the system. But it is a DVD player too, you might say. I already have 2 of them, one on my computer and a home console version. Besides, there's no remote in that USD$300 price tag. No memory card either. So I'd have to shell out about $400 for a decent starter system. Way too much for me!

I really like my Sega Dreamcast, because Sega has the balls to release some new games. Not Madden Football X, Cool Borders whatever, Tekken gameplayhasntchange Tag, or whatever other sequels. Granted Sega has their share of sequels, but they have some of the most original games of the last several years. Samba De Amigo, Virtua Tennis, Jet Grind Radio, etc.

OK...enough ranting...

Amigori
----------------- I'm looking forward to Gameboy Advance. How about you?

why not just use indrema as my windows gaming rig?

[falloutboy]

If the hardware is so standard, and Indrema is selling below cost for the sum of the parts, why shouldn't I just buy it and use it as a windows gaming rig? Or a web server? Or mp3 jukebox? The list of possibilities is pretty endless.

It seems like we're all trying to find "the problem with..." this box and business plan. If there is a fault, it looks like it might be the ease with which users (by that I mean mostly slashdot readers) can convert it into a desktop PC.

Shake outs. phase 2

[Alien54]

An awful lot of good companies and good people are having hard times, while the big boys fall back and wait to see what happens.

The FUD from Washington is really starting to mess with people and mess with lives. It is a self fullfilling prophecy that is starting to take people down.

I see no reason for this lack of confidence except politics, and people pulling a PR Caper for their own greedy ends.

It will be a real shame if places like Indrema cannot make a go of it, because of the fear factor in the money folks.

Time to start sending snail mail, and fixing blame where it belongs.

Re:Why Indrema chose Linux

[cyber-vandal]

How has Mozilla failed? 2 versions of Communicator have been released in the past few months. I know it took a long time, but rewriting Communicator 4.7 was hardly a 5 minute job. The only software project I can think of that was bigger was the rewrite of Windows NT and that took a company with far greater resources 4 years.

Indrema marketing changes

[druiid]

Well, I think the Indrema is a great idea. The problem is, the way they're setting up the marketing of the console and the distribution model isn't really going to work. What needs to be setup is a distribution model similar to what Sega did way-back-when, when they had the Sega Channel where you could download games through cable (although they wouldn't use the same distribution method for the indrema of course), and played them until another set of games could be downloaded. What Indrema needs to do is position the L600 as THE digital content endpoint, so that you go online, check out the games you want, possibly setup via a monthly fee or pay-per-game/play method. Also the console could be setup to download new games while you're away and let you play and/or preview them. If the console is going to have a hard-drive why not use it to it's full potential? Just my two cents.

Re:Why Indrema chose Linux

[Salsaman]

I'm using Mozilla right now, and it works a treat.

I'd hardly call that a failure...

Re:What a cool idea (Sarcasm Inside!)

[Tim C]

Oh yeah - just like Q3 sucked on my TNT2 machine under Linux with NVidia's drivers.

It was at least as fast as under Windows, qualitatively at least.

Cheers,

Tim

How to design an open console

[Morgaine]

I've always intended to buy an Indrema when it comes out, and to support it in other ways.

However, I would NOT have designed it the way it was designed, because it's vastly too expensive that way through not leveraging existing designs and existing products. As Indrema say, they'd have to sell it for $500 to survive, and that's a silly business model if you ask me. But your hardware doesn't have have to be expensive to be powerful. Here's how I would have done it, riding on the back of the PC industry.

I would have defined a supported motherboard architecture based on an existing PC motherboard style, one that is already in production by several manufacturers.

I would have designed a "GPU slot specification" as no more than a raiser board plugging into the AGP connector to allow a plug-in AGP card to be oriented horizontally and to provide sockets for optional graphics-assist hardware. Ditto for a "PCI slot specification" raiser board.

I would have defined the "Indrema Hardware Specification" as a restriction on what can be plugged into the above, because a console must be free of the bugbear of PC games development, ie. the huge variation in PC hardware. Ditto for the "Indrema Software Specification" -- ie. only one specific Linux distribution should be supported by the games spec, and outside that you're on your own. (Actually, Indrema's current software spec seems quite good as it stands.)

I'd have made 1U and 2U enclosures (rack flaps extra) to hold the above in both diskless and disked versions respectively, and it's virtually ready for launch! Design and manufacturing costs would be vastly less than at present, and in effect most of the console hardware would be manufactured for them at a very low cost as a side-effect of the PC industry.

Needless to say, PC advocates would love a box like the above, in effect a thin PC for the hifi rack with the attributes of a games console but an open architecture. What the X-box should be but apparently won't be. Sigh.

If there are any venture capitalists listening, talk to John Gildred, and suggest the above approach. The risk would be much less than for bespoke hardware, and you could always sell the hardware off as very nice PCs in parallel with the gaming business.

Microsoft nuts even like it...

[ejbst25]

I work for a fairly large company. One of the people I work with is such a large MS nut...that he even wrote part of NT 4.0. (not that that is something to be proud of ;-)) Anyway, he is a big fan of Indrema. Why? Because he believes it provides for the ultimate flexibility. Its not an Open Source issue for myself and others like him. Its the fact that this represents real flexibility in a sort of appliance that plays games.

Anyway...I and many others I know will buy one...just give me the chance Indrema!

Re:Microsoft nuts even like it...

[ejbst25]

Actually, as I have heard from others (with NT code experience) they have serious problems. From what I understand...the code is tough to do anything with after the fact. The reason for this is that MS supports "free thinking" and lets people do whatever they want. This makes poor interfaces and worse debugging.

Re:Why Indrema chose Linux

[DrXym]

Why is Mozilla a failure? It's here and it works great.

Re:Yet another reason why Indrema will not survive

[MadAhab]

Right, but the majority of people out there believe in their heart of hearts that the way to make money is to fuck people over and use force, power, and leverage to wring cash out of their market. Outside of organized crime, they are wrong, of course, in the long run - IBM is more successful as a services company than as a vendorlock racket, and those who survive on Quality get through hard times better.

But there's a funny side effect of open source in these efforts; let'em die, get the code. Reverse vendorlock.

Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.

More games that would have run on Indrema

[yerricde]

Yeah. Tux Racer. Smiletris. Kickin', man!

Pingus. FreeCiv. Tetanus On Drugs. Scores of games at Allegro.cc. The whole NES, Game Boy, Genesis (INCLUDING Zero Wing), and SNES libraries (through emulators).

However, I feel sorry for the person whose first game programming attempts ever have to be in C.

And Basic is better how?

Re:More games that would have run on Indrema

[cr0sh]

And Basic is better how?

You have obviously never played with Blitz or AMOS.

I have (on the Amiga, when they came out). Both were DAMN FAST on the Amiga - game programming was no problem there. Of course, most of the work (at least in AMOS) for manipulating the chipset had been done for you, an implemented as BASIC commands (like to scroll a graphics screen - you used the SCROLL command).

BASIC has the easiest learning curve (and if you already know BASIC, no learning curve). There are scads of books on BASIC available (some of the best are the oldest - having listings of Wumpus and Star Trek is fun). Tons of code for all other kinds of BASIC exist on the net (check out the All Basic Code Archives if you are interested in what BASIC can do in good hands).

It is more than possible to program games in some dialect of BASIC today, provided it is a good dialect (even VB - couple it with OpenGL, DirectX, or some other engine, like Genesis, and you could easily make a kicking 3D game. I do know that a few people have done this - in fact, one guy had a dungeon crawl using a custom OpenGL engine and VB, called Mordor 2, later the name was changed when Black Isle Studios picked him up to develop it, they later dropped him, but he still develops it - fun multiplayer network RPG, in 3D, done in VB).

There are several free, open-source compilers for Linux, a couple for using under X as well. Many allow hooks to C and ASM, if you want it.

I will never understand why BASIC is knocked so much nowadays - you would think programmers would know better. It isn't a be-all end-all tool. But in a way, it is close.

Worldcom - Generation Duh!

Where can I find the ISO standard for Basic?

[yerricde]

most of the work (at least in AMOS) for manipulating the chipset had been done for you, an implemented as BASIC commands (like to scroll a graphics screen - you used the SCROLL command).

C is the same way. A decent 2D graphics library will have a function scroll_screen(x, y). The Basic version I remember (QBasic) was so limited that it didn't even support drawing primitives to offscreen bitmaps.

BASIC has the easiest learning curve (and if you already know BASIC, no learning curve).

Visual Basic != Blitz Basic. Lack of a recognized standard for the Basic language creates a tremendous learning curve from one dialect to another. For example, some dialects have line numbers; others don't. Some use gosub for function calls; others use call; others use fn; others have a more C-like syntax. Some Basic dialects have multiline if...then...else...endif; others only allow if condition then goto 12345.

I will never understand why BASIC is knocked so much nowadays

Mostly because people are under the impression that "20 goto 10" is still valid Basic. Exception handling under most dialects is a piece of; on error goto is a lousy kluge for a try/catch structure.

or some other engine, like Genesis

I always thought Genesis consoles were programmed in 68000 assembly.

There are several free, open-source [Basic] compilers for Linux

Will code written for one compile on another? I may try my hand at Basic again once I see one or both of these:

• Standardization activity for the Basic language. Currently, the differences among dialects are so great that "programming in Basic" == "throwing portability out the window."
• A frontend in the GNU Compiler Collection for Basic. Fast code needs a good optimizer; GCC's is one of the best.

Re:Where can I find the ISO standard for Basic?

[cr0sh]

QBasic is limited, I will grant you that - but you shouldn't base all your biases against BASIC on that one version (and actually, you can draw primitives to off-screen bitmaps if you use SCREEN 7 - SCREEN 13 isn't supported natively though, but you could always use my Blast! Library to obtain it). I acknowledge that there are libraries for C/C++ for game programming, but they aren't intrinsic parts of the language. For an individual new to programming, they probably won't even know what a library is!

Visual Basic != Blitz Basic. Lack of a recognized standard for the Basic language creates a tremendous learning curve from one dialect to another. For example, some dialects have line numbers; others don't. Some use gosub for function calls; others use call; others use fn; others have a more C-like syntax. Some Basic dialects have multiline if...then...else...end if; others only allow if condition then goto 12345.

No it doesn't - I have coded under so many different dialects of BASIC that my head hurts. It is true that there isn't forward compatibility (ie, most BASICs that require line numbers won't work without them, like GWBASIC), but most modern BASICs have standardized on the dialect of QuickBASIC, sometimes VB (which has QuickBASIC 4.5, PDS 7, and DOS VB influences). Blitz probably falls outside of this standard (actually, I think the best PC BASIC is PowerBASIC, created by the programmer of TurboBASIC).

On Error GoTo is a piece - this is one bit (that, and the menu creation system) programmers have howled over forever since M$ came out with VB for Windows. The error handling is attrocious. M$ has always said we'll fix it on next release, but have yet to do it (supposedly in VB7, but I will believe it when I see it).

When I meant "Genesis", I meant the Genesis SDK engine, a 3D engine designed for interfacing to VB.

Most of the Linux BASICs adhere to a QuickBASIC structure/dialect/standard, so yes, for the most part code done on one will compile (with limited changes) on the other.

For the _best_ info on BASIC, to answer more of your questions on standardization, etc - and for compiler links, etc, go here:

The All BASIC Code Archives

Worldcom - Generation Duh!