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Windows XP and Incompatibilities with Multi-Booting?
Morgan asks: "
Windows XP (Whistler) won't boot from disks with MBR partition tables, requiring a new GUID Partition Table (GPT). It will still read and write MBR disks. In a cursory search, I find no work to support GPT with LILO or other multi-booting Linux loaders. I'm a 'one OS, one disk' man, especially since disks are so cheap, but what about those who aren't handy with a screwdriver (and an IDE cable)? An easily installable Linux distro that shrinks the Windows partition, but allows multi-booting without requiring a re-install of Windows is a great Trojan horse: 'here, try this real OS, but if you don't like it, or you need a particular app, you can always boot Windows.' Will GPT make this harder?" What reasoning was behind the move to GPT? By making Whistler incompatible with the standard MBR, this could be seen by many as another move to stifle competition in the PC market. How do you feel about it?
The Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) is an attempt to bring ancient PC "standards" up to something reasonable. Almost all hardware and OS/driver vendors are _for_ this. This is an attempt to give PC's real firmware, rather than the hack they have now.
If you've ever used big iron UNIX hardware, you've probably enjoyed the conveniance that the firmware itself provides (or maybe not).
Replacing the MBR is one aspect of this. This is not something to worry about unless MS pulls the embrace and extend crap, but I doubt they'd stoop to it on such a low-level aspect.
With some exceptions, all OS, Driver, and Hardware developers/vendors want EFI.
Possible conspiracy theories:
Realistically, the worst that EFI can do is give us something better than what we have now. At best, it could make PC's pleasurable (but don't bet on it).
Well, none unless one wants to remove many of the more arcane constraints of MBR. Frankly everyone who knows anything about drives and layouts agrees MBR was obsolete over a decade ago and should been retired back then.
Furthermore for most users this won't be a big deal, certianly not for Jane-hobbyist. If you actually bothered to do a bit of research you'll discover that this implementation is fairly backwards-amendable except for some high-end configurations where it's unlikely to be an issue anyhow.
Finally, hard drives retail for ~US$100/20GB, anyone installing XP is likely to be able to pony up the cash. This change won't affect ye olde 486s.
By your logic is any hardware advancement possible or shall the industry remain forever stuck in 1980's technology? At least Apple moved to OpenFirmware along with the rest of the workstation market or is that somehow part of an evil plot too? Ahh, so it's not StUdLy enough for yeah, huh? Luckly you'll be able to change the chrome to a camoflauge background and Matrix-themes to assauge your offended aesthetics. Debunked. Yeah, patching things Baaaaadddd... right. Doi! The market gets what it buys. IS Depts & consumers continue to buy on sizzle & psuedo-feature sets then MS will continue selling it to them. It built a megacompany so they're doing something right.I don't read ACs: If a post isn't worth so much as a nom de plume to its author then I wont bother either.
Or, indeed, problems such as making sure your cruise missiles don't hit non-combatant's embassies...
-- Proud descendant of semi-nomadic cattle-herders.
Is it your intention to make the Linux community look like idiots? Seriously. You post these half-baked articles so frequently, often incorrect and always misleading, and they always get the community fired up to the point of seeing who can make the dumbest post about something that's not even true.
Not sure how many people here are familiar with it, but it's almost like a digital equivalent of the Phil Hendrie Radio Show. It's a hilarious show, btw, if anyone has a chance to listen to it. He'll have guests on (actually voiced by himself) who make dumb and subtly inflammatory comments, but keeping it halfway believable. So every show, you end up with all these people calling up the show and getting irate arguing with some fictional character. (Hendrie = ./ editors, Guest = story submission, Callers = Linux advocate posters). In both places the comedy comes in large part from listening to or reading the opinions of the idiots who believe what they just heard and subsequently make incredible asses of themselves.
Cheers,
When you look at other partitioning schemes (such as the RDB system that the Amiga has used since the 80s) the whole MBR/fdisk thing is a complete joke. The anachronistic partitioning system on x86 PeeCees has caused me to waste significant time on something that should be trivial, and there's a whole sub-industry of bootloaders and utilities just to get around the arbitrary limitations that were built in by some visionless idiot in the early 80s.
Dumping it is a good move. And I note that this time (for a change) MS isn't replacing it with a proprietary decommoditized MS-only defacto standard de jour. This one is open and anyone can be compatable with it. What's not to like?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Until we get mother boards that includes the new EFI approach, we will definetly see transition solutions to support GPT drives.
It will be great to have this technology - sure it will break a lot of the old systems, but then again sometimes when you go forward there are sacrifices to be made.
If MS has decided to limit the addition of GPT support for 64-bit XP, then this is probably because 64-bit motherboards would break most 32-bit OS anyhow, and thus they are unlikely to have people complaing that Windows 98 doesn't work on those machine.
For more info on EFi and GPT, check ou the following link: http://developer.intel.com/technology/efi/download .htm
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
As stated in the Win XP FAQ, GUID partitioning is a replacement for MBR partitioning that allows more partitions on the disk, of any size, without the silly BIOS limitations. It's a part if EFI, the Extensible Firmware Interface that is replacing the old hairball that is the BIOS. The IA-64 Linux distributions already have a version of LILO that works with EFI.
In short, don't worry, Linux adapts, as it always does.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Note that this only applies to the 64-bit (Itanium) version of XP, not the 32-bit.
Just goes to show how many slashbots are ready to flame without even reading the material linked to (about 30% at the time I was reading, comments at +1 and above). That's a scary amount of political power if CmdrTaco is ever looking to mobilize the ignorant forces...
:)
deus does not exist but if he does
Yes.
14. Can the 64-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from MBR disks?
The 64-bit version of Windows Whistler can read and write MBR disks, but cannot boot from MBR disks.
15. Can the 32-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
No. The 32-bit version will see only the Protective MBR. The EE partition will not be mounted or otherwise exposed to application software.
16. Can the 32-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from MBR disks?
Yes.
Note that this only applies to the 64-bit (Itanium) version of XP, not the 32-bit. Frankly, I wished it worked with the 32 bit version too, since the current MBR-based scheme sucks. Try having FAT + NTFS + Linux + FreeBSD + Plan 9, etc on one disk and you'll wish for something better too.
yes, it is possible. and, when you pay for phone service, they also give you a "unique identification" number. this could no doubt be used for some form of DMCA enforcement, somehow. or maybe even personal tracking! quick, run! hide from the government and corporations alike! you have been tagged, numbered, and identified--you have...a PHONE NUMBER!
those cheeky bastards.
sean
I think we need to suspend paranoia mode for a second here. according to the FAQ, the GPT disk partitioning specification is a documented Intel standard. and, really, isn't it about time for the old MBR scheme to die? the architectural limit to 4 primary partitions is getting old. GPT can scale far better and has a less arcane internal structure (cylinder and head arithmetic, anyone?)
and if you read more carefully you will see that it is only the 64-bit version of Whistler that won't boot on MBRs. the 32-bit version should boot just fine.
I think MS is just scaling with their new OS architecture. anything can be viewed through an anti-competitive lense. the important question is: will we be getting a better OS? I think so.
sean
First about this post. As others have commented, this only applies to Windows XP/2002 running on IA-64 processors. All operating systems wishing to boot on these systems will need changes to work with Intel's firmware for IA64 based systems. /. that keeps raising its ugly head. All too often stories are posted that are not checked up on. I understand that those who run /. can not be expected to be experts in everything but stories are often posted that only required a simple reading of a FAQ or two to see that the post is just plain wrong. I had high hopes of /. getting much more professional when it was purchased by Andover. But nothing has changed. The staff seems about the same size and quality that it was before the corporate move. /. really has such great potential. If it could start using expert editors who only post stories that have been properly checked. One reason I love magazines like Discover and Popular Science because the stories are usually checked out pretty well. I understand the need to post things that generate interest but the site also claims to be a news site. No self respecting news site would allow such a low level of checking into the background of the stories they present. Is /. a news site at its heart or just entertainment? It has the potential to be both a high quality and entertaining news site and discussion forum. I understand that /. is a business and the object of a business is to make profits for their shareholders but I don't understand why this has to be in direct opposition to high quality.
/.er who hopes things get better...
This brings a fact about
from a
-- soldack
Is it just me, or does anti-MS fud have a fast path to the main page somewhere in the Slash code? I'm still trying to prove that Slash has an anti-BeOS hack that requires Net+ users to type their password twice before the system accepts the login, but my new project is finding the filtering software that gives priority to MS anticompetitive stories. Seriously, though, the volume of traffic on the /. main page isn't that big. Maybe ten stories per day max. You'd think they'd actually check out the stories that make it far along in the submission processes for them to consider posting it.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Converting MBR System Disks for 64-bit Windows Whistler
Partition Manager Help
LILO
LILO mini-HOWTO
Multi-Booting with LILO
Multiple Boot Advice for x86
The Ultimate Windows Whistler News
Usability comparison: Windows Whistler vs. Gnome 1.2, KDE 2.0, Mandrake Update
How to Download YouTube Videos
Indeed, a simple Google search reveals that the Linux community is on this.
--
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I've XP beta 2 and Mandrake 8.0 on one harddrive, and both boot fine, using the nice mandrake bootmenu. So where's the beef?
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Maybe I'm just a little dense, but I have no idea why this is "from the another-attempt-to-stifle-competition dept." If you can get the specification, how are they attempting to be incompatible?
Look here. More than 4 partitions without hacks like extended partitions..... Personally, I'm looking forward to this becoming mainstream.
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We have fought the AC's, and they have won.
13. Can the 64-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
Yes.
14. Can the 64-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from MBR disks?
The 64-bit version of Windows Whistler can read and write MBR disks, but cannot boot from MBR disks.
15. Can the 32-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from GPT disks?
No. The 32-bit version will see only the Protective MBR. The EE partition will not be mounted or otherwise exposed to application software.
16. Can the 32-bit version of Windows Whistler read, write, and boot from MBR disks?
Yes.
17. Can Windows 2000, Windows NT 4, or Windows 95/98 read, write, and boot from GPT?
No. Again, legacy software will see only the Protective MBR.
18. What about mixing and matching GPT and MBR disks on the same system?
GPT and MBR disks can be mixed only on 64-bit systems, and the following restrictions apply:
* The Windows Whistler loader and the boot partition must reside on a GPT disk. Other hard disks can be either MBR or GPT.
* Both MBR and GPT disks can be present in a single dynamic disk group. Volume sets can span both MBR and GPT disks, However, the MBR cylinder alignment restriction might cause some difficulties mirroring or striping MBR and GPT disks.
Claus
Even so, I know I have to be ready for the other OS screwing up MBR, so I've got a boot disk ready. This is a perfectly working option for trying out Linux, albeit slower to boot. But it may take time to convince a typical Windows user that floppies still exist and are actively used by many of us... which reminds me, there's always Loadlin.
--
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
with the move towards having EFI as the intermediate between the BIOS and the OS, the GPT is a step to get rid of the one more legacy element in the PC. The MBR is considered a legacy agent, mainly by the fact to get to it, you have to use software interrupts. These are trying to be phased out. Now, with the GPT, you can install as many OSs as you would like, they each just need an entry in the table (which is very easy to do) and a file on the harddrive that actually tells it where to go.
If you had real computing problems to worry about such as soviet missle trajectory prediction, then you wouldn't even think about booting into multiple operating systems.
-vax computer, vi, lynx. 'nuf said
I could see a company selling a premade version of this.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Intel's Extensible Firmware Interface specification contains the spec for GPT. All systems incorporating EFI (currently, this is only IA-64 systems) need use GPT, for others it is optional.
I wrote the Linux IA-64 kernel GPT support, and it has been included in the IA-64 kernel port since September 2000. It allows use of either MBR-style or GPT-style partition records per disk. With minor tweaking, it could be used on Linux IA-32, but it is not currently.
Boot loaders such as LILO remain unaffected. LILO takes a file system location (i.e. /boot/vmlinuz), from which it asks the kernel for the physical location of that file on the disk (i.e. where in /dev/sda is the file?). The file location is entirely independent of the partitioning strategy, thus LILO works with both MBR-style and GPT-style partitioning. Linux IA-64 uses its own boot loader (elilo.efi) which again does not need to be aware of the partitioning strategy of a given disk.
Partitioning tools such as fdisk and GNU Parted need to become GPT-aware. I have created a patch for GNU Parted and have made it available to the IA-64 distributions. It could use a bit of cleanup, but is quite functional. I don't believe that anyone has written GPT support into fdisk, and would encourage anyone who wishes to please do so.
I've also written a new Linux IA-64 application "efibootmgr" which manages the EFI Boot Manager options (as defined in the EFI spec above). This tool is both MBR and GPT-aware, and allows for booting your OS off of any disk/partition in your system provided the partition contains a FAT-12,-16, or -32 file system. Additional work will go into EFI in the future to add ext2 file system awareness to avoid even this restriction.
All of these topics have been discussed on the Linux IA-64 developer mailing list. If you care to join the Linux IA-64 developer community, please see www.linuxia64.org.