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Ogle Does CSS and DVD Menus
javilon noted that a new DVD Player for Linux has appeared, and this one supports CSS and is the first player to implement menus. It's called
Ogle and is developed by a few students at Chalmers University of Technology ins Sweden. It's really exciting to see several different groups independently and together developing players. The only question is when will the MPAA give up?
Any bets of time estimation untill those navigation features will be inside mplayer, Xine and other players?? ;))
Hetz (Heunique)
No it's not...
Start Windows and look for a program called "dvdplay" - run it - and you'll see it's missing 1 part - the DirectShow part with DVD encoding...
That part needs to be purchased from one of the Windows DVD players companies around..
Hetz (Heunique)
I do agree that it would be nice to have one player that did everything - however, they're all making progress, and if they haven't already, eventually we'll likely see some cross-pollination among them (most, if not all, of them are borrowing stuff like libspudec, libmpeg2, libac3, and others that have been developed previously, either as part of OMS or other projects). It'll take time, but hell, Xine's already more stable for playing DVDs than the Windows software for my Creative Dxr3 card.
Wasn't that long ago a guy e-mailed the OMS devel mailing list to say that he thought some high-profile Linux company should just license the DVD book specs because NAV support would take too long. Now look - players are actually starting to support DVD navigation, without the DVD book specs. So yeah, it's gonna take time, but as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day.
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
That has NOTHING to do with it.
DVD is one of those areas where a large corporation can come along and club you to death with a lawsuit. DeCSS has been litigated against since it was born.
This is not the usual "volunteers" vs. "paid programmers" situation.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
The Tower Records down the street has stopped renting Videotapes. They still sell tapes, but I expect the selction will diminish.
They still group all the DVD stogether, which makes browsing difficult.
The menus essentially serve as a (fairly elaborate) interafce to all of the DVD's special features. For instance, "Shadow of the Vampire opens with a elaborate painted backdrop with four menu choices: Scenes, Bonus Materials, Languages, and Play. Meanwhile, an overture plays on my speakers.
If I click on "Scenes," I am presented with thumnail images of 18 different chapter, ranging from "Main Titles" and "The Great Director" to "The final Frame" and "Credits." Clicking on any of those thumbnails allows me to jump to the appropriate scene in the movie.
If I click on Bonus materials, I can view several interviews, featurettes and associated movie trailers.
"Languages" allows me to select alternate soundtracks-- DTS, AC-3, Director's Commentary, or a French dub.
Finally, clicking on "Play" simply plays the movie (preceeded, alas, by a 60 second montage of Universal's other DVD releases).
Menus are simply a nice feature to have-- and are a userfriendly method of orgainizing a often bewildering array of special features and supplementary meterial. It is technically possible to access this material without menus--but it's difficult and cumbersome.
The menu specifications also allow for simple games (e.g. Dragon's Lair).
I suppose it might be possible to keep the controls activated at all times-- some DVDs actually disable fast forward (so that you're forced to watch their commercials or the FBI warnings.) "Shadow of the Vampire" does not make use of this dubious "feature".
The guys from LSDVD had a presentation last month at RIT and showed us their player. It was completely fucntional, or at least as functional as you can get on Linux, since there is no media framework. It supported menus fully and was comparable to any wind-bloze player out there. Shame it's commercial, and the cash-mongers that bought the LSDVD guys, killed the project. The name of the company that has LSDVD is MGI. I believe it's www.mgisoft.com... Most of the LSDVD folks were pretty cool, but one was some sort of IP zealot. Oh well. Fully functional DVD player for linux killed because "There wasn't any interest for DVD on Linux." - Another fine example of why all software should be free.
I dunno. Xine and vlc are perfectly stable for me, although I use Debian and the packages are already compiled for it.
I don't know how to get CSS working in Xine
See
CSS for Xine
It all started when they harassed a Norwegian coder, so I'll take it that as yes.
Which hopefully won't happen.
``What can the MPAA say about Chalmers? I know the University is not directly involved, but they are students there.''
University students are typically fair game for cease-and-desist lawsuits, though. A university will certainly defend faculty, but I haven't seen many that won't bend over backwards to help anyone that looks like a lawyer.
More likely, the first sign of MPAA activity these students will lose computing priveledges, have their dorm rooms searched, personal effects confiscated, and possibly have their academic futures sunk.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
c.
Log in or piss off.
At Chalmers we also have a rather nice lawyer, who actually defends Chalmers (and I want to be defended, it's "my" computer system the MPAA will be after). He also enjoys going to court, if we just get him on the right side. :-)
The thing is that this player has been developed in Sweden. Sweden currently does not have software patents, or any equivalence to the DMCA, and the chance of making this development look like a criminal offence is very very small. Even for the MPAA.
We also have something to use to bend Chalmers back the right way if they seem to mushy against the MPAA - PR. Chalmers gets lots and lots of good PR from this player, and that is an argument that the leadership here can certainly accept.
It's really exciting to see several different groups independently and together developing players.
Exciting? I've got a wheel for you to re-invent if you find that sort of thing exciting. I don't know about you, but I'd rather see ONE quality Linux DVD player than five unfinished ones, each in a different stage of brokenness.
Mod me down, they're your points...
The studios are making noises about changing this and instituting a rental-pricing tier, and the rental shops are fighting it tooth and nail. It'll probably happen sooner or later, though.
--
Editor Emeritus and Senior Writer, TeleRead.org
In terms of market share? Approximately 0.00% ± .
Chelloveck
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Possibly true. But, out of the 2% of DVD's market that is comprised of Linux users, how many of them are satisfied with playing DVDs in other systems. I'm a Linux user, but I have absolutely no reason to watch a movie on my Linux box. I'd much rather pop it into my dedicated DVD player and watch it on my TV.
Chelloveck
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
If MPAA ever "gives up" on keeping the lid on DVDs, it will be because they're abandoning DVD altogether. And it might make sense for them to do that pretty soon. If you have bought a lot of your favorite movies on DVD, then it's time for them to introduce a new format so they can sell them to you again.
So when MPAA gives up, be afraid, because it means they're getting ready to ream you.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Somebody should tell him that (H)andhelds comes before (P)HP in the English alphabet, too.
--
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Actually he's probably not too far from the mark. Go to your local Best Buy and try and find the VCR's. The last time I was in there were about 2 el-cheapo models and a beatup SVHS display model tucked away in a corner. It took me a little bit of time and "huh?" head-scratching to find them. Pretty soon: Can't buy VCR, can't rent tapes....cant' *buy* tapes...hm, guess I have to go DVD...
This *will* happen with TV also when HD becomes the standard, encryption crap and all. No TV's to buy? *Have* to buy our super duper HD set (with encryption of course)....
Blech. Signatures.
I haven't had much luck with DVD players on Linux. I've got a dual 700/PIII, 128 megs, SuSE 7.1, and I've tried (in the past few days) vlc (VideoLan), xmovie, xine (about three weeks ago), and just now, olga.
Most don't do anything, vlc runs for a few minutes and dies. I've got the latest stable releases of just about everything (kernel, XFree, etc), and 'it just don't work'. I'm not a newbie here - everything seems to compile, libraries are found, watching stdout dosen't show anything obvious, I've tried different DVDs... Either I've got an oddball system, or it's not quite ready for prime time (although watching the opening Owl sequence of Labrynth is nice).
Hopefully it's just a matter of waiting a few months for things to get a bit more stable, but for right now, I have to use my $120 hardware decoder - an Apex 600A one shelf above my workstation.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
the menu stuff is amazing. I never thought that would get done. Is there any information on how it was achieved?
And the MPAA thinks there is no reason for hacking CSS. Go fig.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
Ok, then buy an Entertainment Anywhere from X-10. I bought my brother one for Christmas and he uses is constantly, but mostly for MP3. Now he wants another one so he doesn't have to move it between the room with the computer and the room with the DVD player, etc.
The signal quality is really good, but it sometimes take a little time getting the right orientation of the antennas. It's really worth it though and it's surprisingly cheap.
The remote that comes with it is really good, too. It's similar to the MouseRemote which I have, and love.
In an ideal world, one good player would be a better situation, but in the current case of dvd players, I don't think so. One player made by one company/group means one single point of failure, and single point to be closed down/intimidated.
Whack-A-Mole is a very easy game to play if there is only one mole, you know.
--
Exigo spamos et dona ferentes
What free software developers can't be assed to do is polish their software for use by mere mortals. Not many people have the motive to do it, because that last 25% of the work just doesn't look like it's there to a developer. And if you pay the developer, who cares about the documentation? You can save money and just ask the developer if you have questions.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
I thought it couldn't play encrypted DVDs, which apparently need features in Darwin that aren't available yet. I'm really hoping they can make it work; even if Apple does release an "official" player it will almost certainly be crippled to appease the MPAA.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Actually, the more I think about it, a combination of CSS within the menus is not so far fetched.
Imagine having multiple styles on a DVD, then applying a CSS to them. The user could then customize the appearance of the menus.
This would be really cool for consumer DVDs like wedding videos, or anything that was created for an individual or specific entity.
Just a thought...
FINALLY! A DVD player that supports Cascading Style Sheets!
Whoohoo!
What? Oh..ok. I see. OK.
Nevermind.
although I still don't understand why people are so bent on seeing a dvd on their massive 21 inch monitor rather than their 36 inch tv)
Because not all of us have either a tv or a need for one? If the Software DVD player does an adequate job, then why buy a tv?
The one piece I know of thats missing is Sorenson (sp?) codec quicktime player. anyone doing this, or know of a project that is?
There was talk on the xine mailing list of trying to get Quicktime working in a similar manner to the windows media codecs. The FAQ for mplayer seems to indicate that the mplayer authors looked into doing it, but weren't capable of getting it to work
You don't mean commercial. You mean proprietary. VideoLAN is produced for partially commercial reasons, and its Open Source. Just like Red Hat Linux.
Its odd people continue to get this wrong when its one of the few things the Open Source and Free Software foundation people unanimously agree upon.
Anyway, LinDVD is available as OEM deal, with Caldera OpenLinux eDesktop 2.4 and LinDVD, on the A20 series, IIRC. GIYF.
But yes, they should be more widely available. Why not send a message to Intervideo asking them for a release date if you'd like to buy a license?
Its probably the only player asides from PowerDVD for Linux (embedded only) that can play film at full quality on a Celeron 300.
VideoLAN has been reported to work on OS X.
[TMB]
From: Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce
To: Slashdot Readership Re: Use of the SMOG trademark
The Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce has worked hard to provide our visitors with the premium SMOG brand of processed air particles, and we feel it is a unique product in the world today. Thus, we must protect our unique product image with a trademark on the term SMOG.
We do not object to use of the slang term "smog" to describe unsolicited commercial air particles, although we do object to the use of our product image in association with that term. Also, if the term is to be used, it should be in all lowercase letters to distinguish it from our trademark SMOG, which should be used with all uppercase letters.
Sincerely,
The Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce
www.lachamber.net
[
In short, this looks like it will be really neat but it is definately not ready for widespread use yet.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
It's not nice to tease people.
Here's my DeCSS mirror, where's yours?
I just bought a DVD player, downloader omi (www.linuxvideo.org) and it worked without any problem. Note, however that it was using 80% CPU on my new Athlon 1.4 GHz.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
OK, read what I said:
:-), and nobody should be able to tell me that I can't build my own DVD player.
"As long as the MPAA thinks they can make people pay for the rights to develop software..."
Now look at what you wrote:
"They don't. They think they can make people pay for the rights to develop software..."
You can argue that I cut off your qualifier. I am arguing that the qualifier doesn't make any difference. For one specific purpose and one only, they're restricting your ability to develop software. That's one purpose too many.
If it infringed their copyright somehow, then I could see them restricting the _use_ of such work. Not the development, the distribution, or the discussion of it. Are photocopiers illegal? No. Are photocopier schematics illegal? No. Are photocopier sales illegal? No. Is using a photocopier illegal? In some cases yes, but that doesn't make the rest of the chain illegal.
As for your other point; "What confuses me most is why people think we have some inalienable right to free movies and music, and the RIAA and MPAA are evil because they make you pay for the product they find, fund, distribute, and market."
1) This has nothing to do with free movies and music. Never has. It's all about letting me watch movies that I HAVE LEGALLY PURCHASED (yes, for real money, from the store) without having to run Windows. Nobody ever told me I couldn't build a VCR out of rusty tin cans and earwax or at least that I wasn't allowed to
As for the RIAA, I pesonally consider them to be entirely evil because they charge large sums of money for music and then keep it, instead of distributing it to the artists. Musicians get a pittance, and the RIAA makes gobs, which is not how things should be.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
"Does a DVD player for Linux have to be a subversive mission against the MPAA?"
Yep! It sure does.
Hold on a second here, I'm not actually being facetious. Consider this:
There are no licensed DVD players for any linux (not to mention all the Unices, OS/2, etc. etc.) In fact, no Linux (etc.) developers have licences to produce one, as far as we know. Thus, ANY DVD PLAYER DEVELOPMENT on Linux is a de facto 'line in the sand' against the MPAA. There's no way for it not to be.
And for that matter, that's the way it should be. As long as the MPAA thinks they can make people pay for the rights to develop software, we should agressively ignore their decrees and do everything in our power to defeat them.
Remember: They are selling you the right to develop your own software. That's simply unconscionable.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Needed now is a supplier of generic, open set-top boxes, into which anyone can put software. Then this can be packaged up as a consumer product, providing DVD play and personal video recorder capability. Somebody with good manufacturing connections in the pacific rim needs to get to work on this. The opportunity exists to flood the world with cheap, open-source set-top boxes and make lots of money.
1. They run out of money
Not going to happen since they have a strangle hold on the mindless masses.
2. All lawyers die.
Ha!
3. When the bad publicity from their trying to take away our rights becomes enough so that it has the potential to hit them in their pocketbooks.
As long as the MPAA is referred to as the "MPAA", a faceless entity, that's not going to happen either. Sure I have a vague notion that Sony, et. all is in there, but I usually don't make the connection right off and neither do the masses.
Conclusion: Dig yourself a trench, it's going to be a long haul.
DVD (see this artitcle although I still don't understand why people are so bent on seeing a dvd on their massive 21 inch monitor rather than their 36 inch tv).
Its not my 21 inch monitor, at home, I want to watch DvD's on, it is my Dell Inspirion 3800 Portable running RedHat 7.1, on airplanes and motel rooms, that I want to play DvD's on. Also some of us use computers as all-in-one entertainment centers and have them hooked up to our 36 inch TV's.
Jesus died for sombodies sins, but not mine.
"Our products just aren't engineered for security,"
-Brian Valentine,VP in charge of MS Windows Development
What can the MPAA say about Chalmers? I know the University is not directly involved, but they are students there.
It should be the message, not the messenger that should be looked at.
Fight Spammers!
DVDs do indeed offer signifigant benifits over VHS - you never need to rewind a DVD, they are much sturdier, and last longer. People are moving to DVDs - if I'm going to buy a movie, it better be on DVD, since I don't have a VCR!
DVDs themselves often come with "extras" that VHS doesn't - like behind the scenes stuff, extra audio tracks, "Dolby Surround," and other things that make them more valuable to customers than a VHS tape. Simply put, I'll bet you that DVDs are winning on actual market merit, rather than being forced down consumers throats.
Especially since the average American consumer doesn't give a rat's tail about the rest of the world, and could care less about region coding, especially because most of the movies that they'd want are released in Region 1. So DVDs are probably going to take over VHS, because DVDs are a product who's time has come. They have the right features at the right price and are convenient to the consumer - a winning product in the marketplace.
--
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
But then again, Red Hat might already have passed the threshold of "can survive nasty litigation". They're profitable now, remember. Would be fun to watch.
It actually refers to a type of special magical charm
Inde =Azure, a bright blue color. Note the relation to the word "Indigo"
Pendant = a variety of common meanings, including an ornament worn on a necklace, etc.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Because sweden is neutral.
When death looks you in the eye, smile. Someone needs to cheer him up.
I wonder if these dudes can port this thing to Mac OS X so I can finally use my damned DVD player on my TiBook. I can't believe it's taking Apple so long to get theirs out the door.... the technology will change before Apple's player is released!
For most people in the US, living on the big island is an OK way of life. However, I have lived in other countries. I have driver licenses in three countries. One for driving on the right and two for driving on the left. I do not wish to start over each time I move and risk sombody's customs office removing my player or library. NTSC, SECAM, PAL are enough of a problem without throwing in Macrovision and Region coding. Adjustable voltage stuff is a way of life except in the US so it's not a problem unless you got it in the USA. Most of my stuff runs on 100, 120, 210, or 240 volt. Most US stuff is 120 only.
The truth shall set you free!
I have one. I don't wish to move the tv & stereo into the office, move the office to the living room, or run long wires all over the place. Computer speakers are not high fidelity.
The truth shall set you free!
Can you really not buy them in the US? Sad but true. It is impossible to buy a non region one player off the shelf legally. The service menu information and chipping players is a hot underground activity.
The truth shall set you free!
I doubt they will make a lot of noise until the damage is done to the VHS end. I expect it will happen just like Microsoft looked the other way on software piracy until it became the standard. Now they have the Business Software Alliance to make everyone shake in their boots. Unfortunately for them it promotes GPL. I am waiting for Pinewood Studios or some other non US studio to start releasing region free DVD's to sell into all markets thus giving the competition fits as market forces show who is king. The US film market needs serious competion in order for this to happen. If Amazon could carry quality region free films for under $10 US including shipping, they could do an end run past the MPAA.
The truth shall set you free!
Actually I'm saying it is illegal to sell them in the US. Why do you think they are hard to find? Only region one standalone players are permitted to be imported into the USA.
The truth shall set you free!
I'll be sure to check the flyers in the paper for the store that has them for sale. I'll let you know when I find a region free player on a mainstream US retailers flyer. If you find one, post it indicating store chain, make and model. It would be a nice feature to have in a player.
The truth shall set you free!
You might not have a choice. I went to rent a videotape last night. The major chain had moved all the video tape into 1/4 of the floor space with just the edges of the boxes showing. They also bunched them all together. They were no longer seperated by classics, comedy, drama, action, family, etc.. Anybody else notice this trend? However the few DVD's they did have filled up 3/4 of the floor space. Several shelves were filled with the same title showing the full front of the box 1 deep on the shelf. This is a bold move to herd people to the DVD's and away from the videotapes. The change happened over the last 2 weeks. The title I went to rent was out. They had reduced inventory to one copy. It is not on DVD. I do not wish to watch DVD's on my computer monitor. I refuse to buy a DVD player until either DVD's are released region free, or all-region players are legally on sale here. I can change the region on my computer DVD drive, but it is not part of my living room home entertainment system. My entire DVD library now consists of one computer program on DVD ROM (phone book) and one movie I bought in a second hand store.
The truth shall set you free!
I'm using Rock Linux, and they crash quite frequently, although Xine (0.4.3) seems more stable, but I don't know how to get CSS working in Xine. Video Lan doesn't save its settings which makes it pretty unusable.
Got friends?
Anyone remember Milquetoast, the Bloom County/Outland cockroach? How he'd plant subliminal messages by whispering in ears at night... This is how I visualize it:
Milquetoast into the ears of RIAA and MPAA executives: Sue everyone, fear the future, keep your lawyers on the gravy train, leave out a bag of stale cheese puffs.
-- .sig are belong to us!
All your
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Ig uesst heyw illg iveu pw hent heyr ealizet hatt heirs ituationi sf utile.
Your livid link is wrong linuxvideo.org
that is all.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Dude! The LiViD link links to the wrong place! You should check your linksto make sure they go to the right place.
Perhaps someonecould write an open source Perl script that checks links and put it in Slashcode so that CmdrTaco never links to the wrong place again.
Or perhaps Microsoft just put some smart tag code in Slash.
Yes I know is is somewhat offtopic, but CmdrTaco did link to the wrong place with the LiViD link. www.livid.org goes to someguy's homepage while www.linuxvideo.orrg goes to LiViD. So this is ontopic. And it makes fun of Smart Tags.
--Volrath50
Cant wait to see Apples sue-happy legal department go after them, too ogle is the creator code for the one of the QuickTime components.
Liberty in your lifetime
"Does anyone know if the MPAA has the same legal power over people using the CSS code in countries other than the United States?"
Theoretically, NONE. However, this did not stop them from having the author of DeCSS arrested and his PC confiscated.
This is another case that would make them look horrible, if they go after authors CLEARLY just trying to make a player. Such a shot to one foot, along with the other shot the RIAA administered by threatening Felten, COULD finally destroy the DMCA.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
Many posts are saying that DVD players on Linux have to be an attack on the DMCA and no commercial players exist.
Check out Intervideo for their Linux based player. They don't sell it to consumers, it is an integration package. Expect some distro's to start carrying it some time in the future.
My name fits again.
If writing one without permission violates the DMCA, why won't someone (I dunno, Redhat has money now) just write a DVD player and pay the license fee. Free OS + Free Software + $30 DVD Player Software still makes for a pretty inexpensive package.
After all, it's DVD, so why settle for less than 100% faithful reproduction in playback?
It's really exciting to see several different groups independantly and together...
See, SmartTags(tm) aren't so bad after all.
Not necessary; that's covered automatically by the fact that they're using DeCSS (or some other CSS-decryption algorithm), which immediately makes them Evil Anti-Capitalist Thieving Pirates, just like those damn Napster users...
[this article is Smiley Captioned for the sarcasm-impaired]
--
#/usr/bin/perl
require 6.0;
sed 's/In Soviet Russia/In NSA America/g' < yakov-smirnoff-jokes.txt
Independently, CmdrTaco, not independantly.
Sorry, I'm bored at work.
----------
If there were gods, how could I bear to be no god?
----------
If there were gods, how could I bear to be no god?
Consequently there are no gods.
It's GPLed! Cancer! Infection! Death and destruction! Killer rabbits! SMOG!
Does anyone know if the MPAA has the same legal power over people using the CSS code in countries other than the United States?
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson