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Adobe Threatens KIllustrator Over Name
Moritz Moeller - Her writes: "Evidently Adobe -- yes the Adobe that has not ported a single application apart from its PDF Reader to Linux -- sees a threat in KDE. They claim that the Koffice vector based drawing program Killustrator violates their trademark for Adobe Illustrator. Here is the mail on koffice-devel. The company demands 2500 EUR from the developer, maybe someone can help with the legal expenses here? The web site for Killuistrator has been put down for the moment.
Shouldn't generic descriptive terms like 'explorer,' 'illustrator' 'word' and 'paint' be free for all to use? Nobody called the program Kadobe! I think it is time for some pressure on Adobe ... "
Anything else Killistrator could have stood for?
It's very true that patents/trademarks are being abused a lot these days, but in this case the KIllustrator name is ACTUALLY confusing. Common word or not, "Illustrator", in drawing programs, equals a quality product.
Adobe did work a long time for that connection, and even though it may help users figure out what the program is meant to do, it's pretty much like advertising a product to the Linux community that you say is "OGPL licensed", which has nothing to do with GPL (the "O" carries with it terms such as giving up your firstborn and your soul), but you wanted to keep the name similar to GPL so people would recognize it was a license of some sort.
In their purest and most proper forms, trademarks and patents DO protect companies and products from people trying to save time on brand-building. They are not categorically wrong out of the gate.
Besides, if you make something really that good for an audience that has no other alternatives, you could name it "P1-588" and it would still be popular. The free ride on KIllustrator is ending, but if it's really that good, a defiant name change will make it more widely known.
::activates information leafblower::
::deactivates::
The first generation of Power Macs had these development codenames: The 6100 was Piltdown Man, the 7100 was Carl Sagan, and the 8100 was Cold Fusion. Note that #1 and #3 are famous hoaxes. Carl Sagan was not happy about the implications and demanded that his name be removed. Apple changed the codename to BHA, told him it was "random letters", and Sagan backed off. Later it became known, probably not directly from Apple, that BHA stood for Butt Head Astronomer.
In this case "Illustrator" is a very accurate description of what the program does. That can be a defense against a trademark infringement suit. The word "adobe" is common, but not in relation to software. "Adobe" is not a descriptive term and bears no relation to what the software company does.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Even commercial products aren't original, compare Microsoft Office
Exactly what is wrong with the K Desktop Environment appending a K if everyone else appends their company name?
Personally, I think KDE Office sounds better than KOffice. But that's not my decision :)
Perhaps Adobe shouldn't have chosen to make a brand out of such a generic word?
"Dodge" is a fairly common word, yet do you believe you could get away by starting a car company named "Dodger"
No, but I expect that you can have 'Ford Motor company', 'General Motors', 'American Motor Corp.' etc. coexist quite nicely. Some how, millions of brand loyal car buyers have managed to not be confused for all of these years. How about 'Kmart' and 'Walmart'?
So, Wal-mart, K-mart: Adobe Illustrator, K Illustrator.
This is seen as a significant advance in helping users find the programs they want.
In related news, the programmer formerly known as "Linus Torvalds" will henceforth be known as "Kbill Kgates" . . .
:)
hawk
Rather than trying to convince the trademark offices that various words shouldn't be trademarked, why can't the various open-source projects come up with more original project names? I'm sick of seeing KOffice and thinking to myself, "Oh, it's just a clone of MS Office" or seeing "GAIM" and thinking to myself, "Oh, it's a GTK version of AIM." KDE seems to be the worst offender in this category.
Not only will you avoid these types of pointless lawsuits, but you'll stop enforcing the MegaCorp's brand strength and start developing some for Linux apps. Pick an original name and quit crying when someone gives you a little legal nudge over your blatant copying of their property.
I agree completely. We need to go beyond merely providing functional software and get serious on the feel good factor of Free Software.
In general, we should agree on one unified brand along the lines of Win(dows) and Mac. 'Open' or 'Free' might be good, but probably already under claims of various sorts. KDE or to a lesser degree GNU would be ok.
For your next project name, please try to refrain from using the letters x, k or g, recursive acronyms, and geek humor in general.
Instead, try to pick something a little more uplifting. If appropriate, you can decorate your name with some qualifier at the end. What we need now is apps that fit names like KDE Aspire Pro. GNU ManageImpact. OpenImpress Developer edition. KDE Transcend Enterprise. You get the idea.
::shrug:: It depends on how you define "market".
If you use a broad definition: "vector drawing tools", then yes, they fall in the same market.
If you define the markets a *little* more specifically: "vector drawing tools for linux", "free vector drawing tools", "vector drawing tools for Windows/MacOS" or "commercial vector drawing tools", they don't fit into the same market at all.
Adobe produces no vector drawing software for Linux (AFAIK they cancelled their only Linux-based project, which was a port of Pagemaker (?) ) - so in the Linux market, their product doesn't fit. AFAIK, KIllustrator doesn't run under Windows or MacOS (with the possibility of OSX as an exception) - so it doesn't fit into Adobe's market.
The two seem fairly well seperated to me =)
At the time Adobe registered "Adobe Illustrator", there was an existing registration for "PC Illustrator" in the same field. A few years later the "PC Illustrator" mark expired and was not renewed. A few years after that, Adobe registered just plain "Illustrator". This sequence of events suggests that "Illustrator" is sufficiently weak that any prefix or postfix, except pluralisation, may be sufficient in the eyes of the USPTO.
Is KIllustrator too close? Maybe, or maybe not. Most likely a court would rule against it because there is clear intent to ride the "goodwill" of the Illustrator mark. The above history might give you justification, though.
The smart thing to do here is drop KIllustrator like a hot potato and choose another name. There are much better places to spend our money establishing and changing legal precedents in favour of freedom and free software.
If I added an "s" to the end of KIllistrator, would you say then that it's a problem? Of course you would. Why do you think adding a K to the front of Illustrator is any different?
I do. First of all, there are programs that prefix themselves with gnu even though they have nothing to do with GNU, like gnutella.
Also, there is a difference between KIllustrator and Kaldera, being that "illustrator" has to do with the products function, while "Caldera" does not. I would not be opposed to a volcano-predicting program being called Caldera, because its related.
Engineering and the Ultimate
First, foremost, and most gallingly to the Slashdot-kiddie population, is that US trademark (and patent) law is based on a "use it or lose it" principle -- if, today, you fail to defend your property, you may lose the right to do so tomorrow.
This means that Adobe may not particularly care, per se, what the KDE vector-graphics product is called, but they fear the loss of their trademark more than they fear pissing off the Linux community. This does not, IMHO, make them bad or evil, just businessmen trying to hold on to the good name they've built.
Second, trademarks are not "global" in the sense that just because Ray Kroc trademarked "McDonald's" as a name for his burger chain, that doesn't prevent me from opening up a "McDonald's Auto Repair". Trademarks apply to a name or logo applied to a specific product or field of business. You better believe if I open up a roadside hamburger stand called McDonald's that the big chain is gonna land on me with both feet.
Third, what does Adobe's "Illustrator" refer to? A vector-based drawing program. What does KDE's "Illustrator" refer to? You guessed it. Similar products doing similar things means that KDE knows damn well (or should know damn well) that they're on Adobe's trademark turf.
Fourth, yes, a simple phone call might have sufficed, but a) the people who are protesting this would probably still protest even that, urging resistance and thus forcing a lawsuit anyway, and b) with reference to point 1, this may be the first real challenge Adobe's ever had on the Illustrator name, so they feel they need to act decisively to maintain their right to that name.
A final point: precedence rules over registration. This means if some guy in 1981 wrote a program called "Illustrator", not only would he have the right to continue to use the name, he might even have the right to sue Adobe to have their trademark vacated and/or assigned to him. When businesses in unrelated fields use the same name, an understanding is often reached (cf. Apple Computer/Apple Records), amicably or by litigation, that those companies will not enter each others' arenas with the same trademark (Apple Records would not, for example, be allowed to sell "Apple" computers without clearing it with Apple Computer and probably paying a license fee first).
Executive summary: Quit whining. A couple of thousand Euros is pretty damn cheap considering the goodwill that goes with the "Illustrator" name.
-- Old Man Kensey
And if we ever get an Open Source version of FrameMaker running, it ought to be called Manual Labor!
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
AIM is not the name of AOL Instant Messenger, so your comment there should be taken back. AIM is an ackronymn, and everyone knows that you cannot trademark them...
I agree completely that KIllustrator should be changed, I don't see how it really makes much of a difference to Adobe though. They should have asked nicely and it would probably have been done... Instead they had to threaten legal action and a fine.
Get over it Adobe.
it seems an obvious attempt to capitalize on the name and market of adobe illustrator. I would think a simple request to change it would be first, but as many folks have stated maybe they did ask ?
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
1) Time was when running Frame on anything BUT a sparcstation was Just Not Done. I think Adobe knows Unix quite well.
2) Macromedia makes some fine competing products for the mac. Buy one of their products, then tell adobe that you went to their competition.
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I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
> Maybe it will be 5 years, or maybe it will be 10, but eventually all the features in Adobe Illustrator will be available in KDE Illustrator, and that will be the end of Adobe's product.
Yes, perhaps in 10 years, KIllustrator will have all the features of a 10 year old version of Illustrator. Dunno though, I still don't see any free software as powerful as PageMaker with the features I used it for 10 years ago.
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I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
>Here's the real question, tho: Why do Window-hating Linux developers clone of Windows applications and technologies ? We have >clones of Word, Visio, TWAIN -- hell, KDE and Gnome often try to clone Windows, right down to the damnable "Start" button.
Duh. Because back when Linux resembled Unix circa 1989 - that is, it ran X w/ twm or fvwm - everyone said "It's OK, but it can't run a word processor, it doesn't have a scanner interface, or an image editor beyond 'xpaint', what a P.O.S." So the community wrote them. "But windows has better ease of use". So they riffed on familiar metaphors.
Now, its a "clone" of "damnable" technolgies. Hey, don't blame the community. The people in charge of these things - so-called pundits and experts - said this was what it took to get Linux into the enterprise, to dethrone microsoft, and to make a better world. If you want things any different, set the wayback machine for 1993, and convince the pundits otherwise. The community responded to overwhelming stimuli.
IMHO, Windows is, was and will be a clone of the Macintosh GUI. Maybe W2k and XP are sufficiently different, I would grant that, but W3.1 was a clone of mwm and cde (look at the damn window controls!), and W95-WME are clones of Mac interfaces. NT was intended to compete with Unix, and therefore borrows many familiar aspects, same with W2k.
Everyone riffs on everyone else. Face it.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
(although abiword may run into trouble too.)
W
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This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Oh, sure, maybe most of the people who hang out on Slashdot would never make such an obvious error, but lemme tell you, there are heaps of people buying software out there who don't really have any idea of what they're buying; they're relying on word-of-mouth from people who read an article in last month's PC World.
I know this, because I sell retail software for a living.
I get people coming in asking for "Windows 2000 Millenium Edition" every day. They think they can upgrade Windows 98 to Office 2000, or that they can't run Office 2000 because they only have Windows 98. And that's the products from one company; I get people who tell me that StarOffice is Microsoft's version of Office for Linux, and still others who ask for "Adobe" -- not "Adobe Photoshop" or "Adobe Illustrator", but "Adobe". Sure, I help straighten them out (and manage to not come off as egotistical and self-absorbed in the process, unlike so many of the people posting in this thread).
But yeah, I can tell you there's a good chance that someone would buy SuSE Linux, because it includes KOffice and KIllustrator, and think they're getting away with murder because they they're not paying $400 for Adobe Illustrator and $500 for Microsoft Office.
Jay (=
Scribe was a text-document processing system.
... well, the comment was off the cuff and not researched, which I hope any final choice of anternative name would be.
...
Oops
For Killustrator, taking from another comment discussing Hershey Kisses, why not:
KDE Illustrations Software System - Kiss. Unless, of course, some trademark has already been filed for smooching software
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
You make some good points, but I think your conclusion is wrong ... not because your reasoning is wrong, but because you overlook, or perhaps just ignore, the underlying economic reality: the free software community doesn't have the money or legal resources to burn in order to fight this battle.
:-)
... descriptive and to the point. I would stop short of digging up famous specialists who are only famous in their field, but would argue no one would confuse the likes of Monet or DaVinci.
Why draw the line at Illustrator? Why hasn't MS taken issue with KWord? Maybe because it's clearly not an MS product? (Hello Adobe? Paying attention? "KIllustrator" != "Adobe Illustrator"; nobody with a shred of sense would confuse the two.) Why hasn't Corel taken issue with KPresenter or StarOffice Draw?
Somebody rein in the Adobe litigators. They seem to have too much time on their hands.
Yes, despite the nonsense pro-intellectual property zealots have been spewing, Adobe is ethically, morally, and perhaps even legally in the wrong. But, as I said before, it is a waste of our community's limited resources to persue this sort of thing in court, especially when the legal outcome is uncertain. Keep in mind that it is large corporations, of the sort Adobe is, that purchased the original trademark laws and their subsequent "enhancements." Whether or not they've actually purchased the courts is an open question, although the DeCSS and Microsoft Appeals decisions would indicate that even the judicial branch has been largely undermined.
Whatever one's personal beliefs on these issues, I think it stands to reason that our efforts would be far better spent coming up with a witty and unassailable naming scheme. It doesn't have to fit every kde app ever made, just the ones whose names are vulnerable to this sort of litigious thuggary.
Of course, (re)naming KVideoEditor Spielberg might have problems all its own.
All in all, I quite like the DaVinci, Monet, and Virgil suggestions, but one need not enforce it religiously across the entire board. Kivio could for example simply be renamed KCharts
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
And if we ever get an Open Source version of FrameMaker running, it ought to be called Manual Labor!
Or simply FBI, famous for numerous frameups of innocents for everything from subversion to murder ("Frame 'em Before Investigating")
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Koffice -> KDE Office Suite
... perhaps famous sketchers or draftsmen for Killustrator, famous authors for kword, famouse painters for kpaint, and so on...
Killistrator -> VectorDraw
kword -> Scribe
kpaint -> Artiste
and so on. Rather than fighting this sort of battle on their turf (yes, it is rediculous that generic words like, oh, say, "word," "illustrator," "paint," and so on are trademarked, but these large corporations have already purchased all three branches of our government rather cheaply and hold the home-court advantage in an excess of funds and lawyers to win even the most unfair and indefensible of legal fights.
Far better to just make up unique names and spend the money that would have been spent on legal duels filing trademarks for those names instead. I'm sure numerous people would donate to such a cause.
Anyone have any better ideas for names
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Was it worth it, guys?
--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Of course, user number 1 is using Windows, and user number 2 is using Linux, so maybe that explains the disparity...
--
"Do you expect me to talk?" "No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!"
I don't think the name of a piece of software necessarily has to describe it's function. As a piece of software becomes more popular, if it has an original name, that name will become synonymous with the software's function. Take the Gimp as an example; There are now literally millions of people who know what the Gimp's purpose is. What about Napster? If napster didn't suck nowadays and kept taking off, that word would probably be added to the dictionary in a few years. Well maybe not, but you get my point. Ximian's Evolution is still under development but already has thousands of users who are already forming the association between the name "Evolution" and it's function--The mail/groupware suite. Aim high, developers--if you're starting a new project or considering a renaming, there's nothing wrong with the name being descriptive, but at least consider some really original names and then work to make your piece of software the best in it's class. You'll earn the distinction of having the name of your project mean what it's function is and might even have other projects prepending letters or company names to your name in the future...:) Try to then be the Gimp of X, where X is any category of software...
Celebrate the finer things in life
all this time I thought the ENTIRE POINT of trademarks was to keep a copy-cat company from selling a product that *falsly claimed* to be from the original product's manufacturer
well, sorry, but all this time you were wrong. the purpose of trademarks is to prevent consumer confusion.
The standard used is "would the average consumer" be reasonably confused by the mark. Not your standard of "anyone, anywhere". Most legal standards are "reasonable person" standards...
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
AIM is an ackronymn, and everyone knows that you cannot trademark them...
you'd better notify all the intellectual property attorneys of this startling development...
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Actualy, when GAIM came out, America Online had not yet copyrigted the name "AIM"
you're right, they had only trademarked it.
Not with government paperwork, but that little "tm" is all you need to notify the public.
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
That's what trademarks are for, to protect Mom and Dad from being ripped off.
Exactly (and I have a "Padagonia" vest in Nepal that i got for $5 which is great, but I knew it was a knock-off, of course).
You don't seriously think that anybody will konfuse Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, do you? Really?
really? Yes. What's to indicate that they are different? they are both vector graphics programs that run on PCs, and let you do pretty much the same things. How is someone without experience or computer savvy supposed to guess at the difference?
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
Instead of complaining to Slashdot every time your blatant name ripoff is called out (GAIM, KIllustrator), why not just name your program something that isn't clearly derivative of a commercial program with the same purpose?
This is, after all, the ENTIRE POINT of trademarks -- so that the customer knows what they are getting. For someone who isn't already familiar with the applications, KIllustrator and Illustrator could very well be the same thing.
We criticize MS every time they over-use the word "innovation", why not practice some innovation of your own and actually spend ten seconds thinking of a new name.
Yes, you might be able to claim "illustrator" is a generic term, but seeing as how the program has been around for 15 years and is the market leader, I think a court would give Adobe the benefit of the doubt in deference to the consumer identification of the name with their product. They're hardly trying to stop the use of the word everywhere -- only where it is blatantly obvious that its an intended ripoff of their product identification in vector graphics application software market.
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
As Adobe isn't participating in the Linux market, KIllustrator isn't a competing product.
Illustrator is a generic term, that existed long before Adobe's product.
Presuming that they felt that they needed to defend their trademark, they could have required a written acknowledgement in each copy, or some such, saying, e.g., "The term Illustrator for this program us used by permission of...".
I believe that they just felt like they had enough muscle to get away with it. I believe that they were right about that.
In addition, Adobe is one of the companies publically reported as a supporter of UCITA, so I don't feel like cutting them any slack.
It will be quite awhile before I recommend any Adobe product to anybody for anything.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It is nonsense to suggest that the name is not equally applicable to other products simply because Adobe used it first.
Well, maybe it's not right, but that's all the court would care about, if it ever went that far, because Adobe trademarked "Illustrator"
Killustrator is a vector-based drawing program.
Illustrator is a vector-based drawing program.
Illustrator predates Killustrator by a number of years.
The name "Illustrator" is trademarked.
The way I see it, the court could rule in one of two ways:
1) They find for Adode
2) They rule Adobe's trademark invalid
That's the way trademarks work. Both products are aimed at people wishing to use a computer to produce vector-based illustrations. That they run under different operating systems is irrelevant.
As for "one product is always going to come before the other. That does not mean that one is named after the other", are you seriously trying to tell us that the Killustrator developers chose the name at random, and had never heard of Illustrator? I'm sure the same is true of KOffice and KWord, too...
Now, please feel free to argue that Illustrator is too generic a term to be trademarked; then you'd be on safer ground. However, arguing that Adobe using it first doesn't grant them any exclusivity over its use isn't going to get you very far.
Cheers,
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
if they're there for the money, and you can help them stay there and get more money... they'll cater to you so long as you can actually do something for them. It's the same deal for corporations and lobbyists, if they didn't have $$$ then why would the govt listen to them, what can they for for the govt but give them $$$?
but rally, that's not democracy, that's corruption, and corruption is everywhere. Even in anarchy, you will have groups of individuals conspiring against other indivuals for their own benefit. No big difference. Remember there is no magic pill that will make things better. If anarchy (as a form of "non"government) was so great, why is it so under represented in the world?
-earl
by having a project which is not-for-profit, and realeases source code under a free license, i am within my rights to infringe on anyone's patent or trademark or any other form of IP.
It's just rubbish. Whether or not you "believe" in Intellectual property has no bearing on whether it exists, and if it is legally binding.
Fighting the system through simple noncompliance is not the answer, talk to your govt reps, and demand action. If nobody complains, then nothing changes. The whole point of democracy is that you stand up and be heard, not just bitch and moan cuz you're not in charge.
And do you really believe that gov't cares about anything but money anyway? Well, guess who has more money? The people do, and by the way, corporations can't vote, so if you stop being a sheep and watchin all the political ads, and do something. Then the system might change. If you've never actively participated in the system ( no, just voting is not enough) then you're not doing enough to make sure you're interests are represented. Support a canidate that REALLY represents you, then maybe we wouldn't have all these cookie-cutter, do anything for a buck congressional whores deciding how we're gonna plan our collective futures.
by the way, no i'm not bitter.
-earl
Are you confused? If you are maybe they have a case, but then you don't. OTOH, if you are not, then they don't have a case. The word "illustrator" existed before Adobe used it just like the word "Word" existed before Microsoft used it. Of course they can add stuff on and use it as their own. But so can anyone else do the same thing. The question is whether that was done to extract on the "good" name, or if it was done to simply convey a meaning to a ubiquitous term. I'm sure the KDE people can choose a different name. But the demand for money now means it won't be that simple.
And the GPL does not undermine IT development companies. They don't have to use the software if they don't want to. Why is your business doing it if it is undermining you? I was considering using BSD licensing for my free software. But because of the unjustified attacks made on GPL, I'm considering going the other way and doing GPL. Hope you're happy.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Instead of trying to address the matter in good faith they are trying to pressure people for money. Were it not for that, I'd say to KDE to change the name. But instead, I'd suggest holding their stand until Adobe agrees to come to terms on this. They should have first sent a normal cease and desist letter. But this indicates a major attitude problem at Adobe, and they are certainly going to lose all potential business from me (what little there may have been).
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
And it is also about Adobe skipping the usual process of sending a "cease and desist" letter. I do believe that, aside from the "theft of commonality" issue, it is likely that the author would have changed the name. So this is also about a bad company with a bad attitude and a bunch of bad lawyers who really are the ones who should become fish food.
I wish I could boycott Adobe over this. The trouble is, they don't make anything worth buying in the first place.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Murderustrator
Genocide-ustrator
Manslaughterustrator
Executionustrator
Maybe the Killustrator should abandon their death theme. They can still stay within the violence theme without killing:
Beatingustrator
Rape-ustrator
Maimustrator
Hazingustrator
The possibilities just go on!
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Today on the trademark front, Kleenex Corp. accounced that it is issuing an injunction against Adobe, Inc. for use of a confusingly similar name for their product.
The Kleenex spokesman, a Mr. S. Notball, had this to say, "These Adobe people have gone too far. Their giving this product a name that sounds so similar to our product can't help but harm our customers. Picture this, John Q. Consumer has a bad cold, he's not feeling himself and is a bit confused. He reaches for his KLinux, thinking that he's grabbing his Kleenex. And what happens? He ends up with mucus all over his mouse, keboard and monitor! We just can't allow this sort of thing to go on."
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
"My name is Leenus Torvalds, and I pronounce 'Klinux' as Kleenux."
Think about how Linus would pronounce this and you'll realize that they'd soon hear from Kimberly Clark. You know, the folks who make that boxed facial tissue?
(see http://205.203.65.110/home.htm if you still don't get it...)
Adobe is a US based company. If they are actually trying to get money out of you I don't see why it would be in Euro. Not to mention 2500 euro seems like a very small sum to begin with. I would check with Adobe Corporate Legal and see if this letter is a fake or not before worrying about it. Most large companies tend to get their panties in a bunch to the sum of many hundred of thousands of dollars (or more) over trademark infringement.
Just like removing the "Perfect" from a word processor, or adding "Star" to the front of "Office"? How about changing "Photo" to "Paint"? Look at "TurboCAD", "AutoCAD", "QCAD", and dozens of others. If adding your company name isn't enough, explain "Microsoft Office", "Corel Office", "Open Office", "StarOffice" and...
Oh, wait... you're right. I guess "KOffice" is infringing too?
There is a long history of companies using slight variations on competitors names - I think it has less to do with intentional confusion and more to do with limited namespace for a topic and the need to have a single word name that makes the function of the program evident.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
So by your logic there would be no connection between a program called "musician" and editing music???
Illustrations (from woodcuts onwards) have traditionally been vector graphics...
I'll also add (only of historical relevance, and not of legal relevance) that Office packages have been for sale since at least the 1950s, and probably back to the 1800s. My Dad dug up in my Grandfather's back shed something like "Smithson's Office", a package containing a nice desk set.
And an Illustrator is someone who illustrates. A program named "Illustrator" would presumably illustrate things. I don't know how more generic you can get. Going back to AC's comment, it's not CakeWalk... it's more like Adobe Musician versus KMusician.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
Actualy, when GAIM came out, America Online had not yet copyrigted the name "AIM"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
both "Adobe Illustrator" and just "Illustrator" are trademarked by Adobe.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
But your still wrong, aol had not trademarked the name "AIM" either.
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I wonder if (for whatever reason) Adobe has something against Unix in general. Perhaps they just don't have the knowhow. This would partially explain their reluctance to have something for the Mac.
I wouldn't fret over the Mac. It took some time for fat binaries to become available. This will be the same thing. (Of course, WRT Adobe products and the new Mac OS, there is a rather large chicken-egg problem)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Killistrator is not competition of Illustrator. Why? Because Adobe does not compete in the Unix/non-MS/non-Apple marketplace. While the KIll. program might have been 'inspired' by Adobe's work, it is not a competitor. Not until AIllustrator is available on *BSD, Linux, Herd, or whatever.
But yeah, big whoop. Change the name, life goes on. Grant the copyright of the code/name to FSF and let them pay the 20 quatloos.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Would MS Mxyzptlk get them back to our dimension, or land them on the bizarro 5th dimension? (Boy, now that would be an interesting place)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Actually, McIntosh is a fruit. Macintosh is a computer.
Most interestingly, Apple is a recording studio. Apple (the computer company) introduced the 'sosumi' beep after essentially reneging on their agreement to not put sound editing/recording on the Mac.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
Unfortunately, I added some stuff to my original post that would have indicated that I was playing devil's advocate. Guess they got knackered. Sorry.
But anyhoo, this is an important question: IS there an OS market? Does someone actually choose between FreeBSD and Win2k? Hurd and Linux? QNX and WinME?
If you think not (and on the desktop, I think I'm right) then Killustrator is not a competitor. OTOH, if there is a market (and it seems that there is not. M$ has mind and marketshare, except among a few of us freaks) then yes, the two products do compete.
As an example... Let's say that GM creates a car called the SuperHawk (a replacement for the SuperChicken, perhaps). Can Honda sue? It depends. Both are transportation products, but one is a car, one is a bike.
Similarly, Killustrator is a Linux (forgive me if it's also available for BSD, et al.) product, and Illustrator is a Win/Mac product.
Those are the arguments that could be made. I agree with some, disagree with others. But in the end, regardless of the right and wrong of it, the expeditious thing to do, if the software is an end, and not a means to social change, is change the name.
Someone said KINI (KINI Is Not Illustrator). I like it. And you'd have to be a complete rube (or perhaps 'your honor') in order to confuse the two.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
There are agencies that check the legal status of names in all kinds of countries (and the meaning of that name in various languages).
That way, you can make sure that you're not working against anyone's trademarks and you make sure that people will not associate anything negative with your product.
Of course, the expenses to use that service are probably way higher than what your average free software author is able (or willing) to spend.
Actually, it's in 4686 German Mark (DM), which is (at least approximately) 2500 Euro.
The lawyers also refused to make a deal - the author offered to change the name if they would not demand the money. They added that lawyers wouldn't work for free.
See the article in the Heise.de newsticker. According to that article it is still unclear whether the lawyers work directly for Adobe. Adobe itself also didn't make a statement.
Anyone have any better ideas for names ... perhaps famous sketchers or draftsmen for Killustrator, famous authors for kword, famouse painters for kpaint, and so on...
This is a great idea -- not only because it bypasses the whole trademark issue, but because it's coherent, clever, and marketable. Moreover, it would differentiate Linux apps from their Windows counterparts (if only the developers could do the same with the interfaces, many of which are blatant MS knockoffs). In short, it would give the Linux platform a sorely needed shot of brand identity. I suggest:
Killustrator -> DaVinci (possibly the most famous draftsman of all time)
Kword -> Virgil
Kpaint -> Monet (a good choice to differentiate paint from illustrator -- the guy would never use a vector program to save his life)
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
-jhp
/. -- the Free Republic of technology.
>"Nobody called the program Kadobe! I think it is time for some pressure on Adobe ... "
Hmm, seems odd to me to assume that you couldn't
call something Kadobe, as Webster's has this to
say, with nothing about a software company...
adobe (-db)
n.
A sun-dried, unburned brick of clay and straw.
The clay or soil from which this brick is made.
A structure built with this type of brick.
Error Code: beef
See, once you start going down this road, you realize that someone, somewhere has produced software with virtually every name possible and sooner or later they're going to decide to want some licensing fee for using their noun, verb, or adjective.
I want to release a product called 'the' or '1.0' and trademark those terms
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Adobe Threatens KIllustrator Over Name
I hate it when people use contracted names like "KIllustrator". They should use the long form, "Kill Illustrator"! There should be no name confusion with the long form either.
I don't want to speak for the guy you are arguing with but really what makes you think that Adobe owns the word illustrator and that nobody else can use the illustrator in their product names from this day on?
First of all is the word "Illustrator" a registered trademark of Adobe or the is phrase "Adobe Illustrator" the trademark. If the latter then what makes you think any body would confuse the word "killustrator" with the phrase "adobe illustrator"?
If this went to court Adobe would lose. It won't go to court because Adobe is rich and the developers are not. The rich get what they want in this country and there is nothing any of can do about it.
War is necrophilia.
" They don't run under operating systems at all - it's an absurd comment to make. "
This is slashdot absurdity rules here. All the moderators are on crack, all the MS trolls get modded to +5, any right wing comment no matter how devoid of actual content will also get modded up the wazoo.
You were not actually expecting inteligent conversation on slashdot were you? All the adults have gone and left and the insane are running the asylum.
War is necrophilia.
The weakest just like what we have today in america.
War is necrophilia.
"Anyone can use the name as long as the product isn't a drawing program."
Not exactly true. As long as a reasonable person would not confuse the two products. In this case no reasonable person would confuse adobe illustrator with killustrator because.
1) different word
2) they don't run on the same OS
3) Adobe illustrator comes boxed with logos and shrinkwrap, killustrator has no box, does not come with a shrink. No cunsumer is likely to walk into a store and buy killustrator thinking it might be illustrator.
4) Illustrator costs lots of money killustrator is free.
Only unreasonable people would confuse these two products and even in the event of confusion if one person downloaded killustrator thinking it was illustrator it would not run on thei OS and therefore there is no harm to adobe.
War is necrophilia.
Actually, you can trademark common words or phrases,and obvious ones, for use in a certain context. IBM trademarked "Crash Protection" as it related to operating systems, as did Microsoft with "Windows". Oh, and "Macintosh" is a common eating apple, but both it and apple have been trademarked.
Best Slashdot Co
Yeah, I'm sure more people think about Pulp Fiction rather than about the acronym. And the Pulp Fiction inspired meaning is cooler too...
ser# 74731075: "ILLUSTRATOR", for Adobe Systems Incorporated.
ser# 73210166: "ILLUSTRATOR", for Illustrator Pen Products, Inc.
ser# 73657866: "ADOBE ILLUSTRATOR", for Adobe Systems Incorporated.
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IIRC, "Adobe Illustrator" is trademarked, not "Illustrator", which is an english word found in the dictionary.
This is really no different than a "Hershey's Kiss", in that many chocolate makers produce "Kisses" and a "Kiss" which are essentially the same mold as a "Hershey's Kiss", but they are not infringing, since Hershey's cannot trademark the word Kiss.
On the other hand you have "Windows", which has been trademarked succesfully, and it would be difficult for one to make an OS, or nearly any piece of software, with that name.
I doubt that Adobe would win a court battle, but it is expensive and everyone has to choose their battles wisely. Sometimes it's better to stand up and stand firm, other times it's better to bend a little until the wind blows over. I personally would rather have a rename and then the author spend time further developing the software than have all development stop (essentially) while various people grapple in court.
-Adam
This sig 80% recycled bits, 20% post user.
Lawyers don't make demands for money upfront.
They threaten first and expect you to back down.
Also 2500 euro sounds awefully cheap for use
of adobe's trademark. Ignore him.
--
www.alphalinux.org
www.alphalinux.org
Sure it does... you have to dodge the car when its crappy tires give out and it goes careening off the road into your front yard while you are mowing the lawn
I realize that Ford had the tire problem. I thought a bit of play on the theme would be ok for a (albeit bad) joke. I quite happily drive a dodge ram pickup and it serves me well. Lighten up and pull that banana out of your tailpipe. And I ain't talkin bout your charger either.
Adobe has every right, reason, and frankly, moral justification to persue this suit. Adobe Illustrator is an established, well known, widely recognized brand name, due in no small part to the quality of the product and the boatloads of marketing money spend by Adobe. Naming a product that is a direct competetor KIllustrator, a one letter diffrence, is not just an innocent naming choice, but a blatenty obvious effort to ride on the coatails of Adobe's efforts. Adobe did it first. Adobe did a good job of it. Adobe chose to identify all their hardwork with the label Illustrator. Regardless of the legality/wisdom of trying to trademark a standard word, naming their productKIllustrator is a cheep ploy and is an excellent example of the kind of thing trademark laws were set up to stop in the firstplace. Seriously people, if Microsoft released an MS-Apache webserver the majority of the posters on this board would be demanding blood. Just because someone is an underdog doesn't always make them the good guys.
yes the Adobe that has not ported a single application apart from its PDF Reader to Linux
Heh, don't feel bad; apparently Linux isn't the only Unix platform Adobe refuses to port anything other than a PDF reader to....
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I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
It seems like Adobe has a reasonable, yet not air tight claim that KIllustrator is confusingly similar to Illustrator, given that both are software tools in the vector drawing arena.
;-] but I don't think Adobe will be very keen, you see they've already got one.
OK, so what happens now? Either the KDE component will need to hire some lawyers and fight, or they need to change their name, or they could simply pay the fee.
Perhaps a little barter arrangement can be made in return for a trademark licence. I suppose KDE could offer Adobe free use, source code, and even distribution of the program
Since the name is somewhat derivitive, I'd recommend changing it as path with the moral high ground. Perhaps they should have a contest to propose the new name. Also, I think all prominent open source projects should trademark their names as a precaution.
Here's a few alternate names I thought of (post your ideas):
sKetch
Kanvas
Killus
KVector
GeometricK
I am sure that Adobe has a trademark on the "Illustrator" name. This pretty much means that it has a naming monopoly on the word Illustrator as it pertains to computer drawing programs. Appending a "K" doesn't adequately differentiate the product. Using an original name is a much better idea. There is no real way to defend what KIllustrator is doing in a court.
This smells a little fishy to me. I'd think that if Adobe had a problem with this group, they wouldn't be asking for a paulty sum like 2500 euros, they'd be saying "Cease and Desist".
I'd be for double-checking the source of the demand: I smell a con artist here.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Killustrator is not a competing product to Adobe Illustrator (I assume that's what you meant.) It can't be - the two products do not even run under the same operating system.
I agree totally. In fact, Linux and Windows are not competitors either, they run on different operating systems.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
2500 Euro? For some guy's spare time project?Cripes.
/. be up in arms with pitch forks and torches?)
Hold it right there. If everyone here is always praising free software, then you can't turn around and claim that Adobe shouldn't treat this particular project with the same amount of seriousness as it would any other (commercial) competitor. You don't know if KIllustrator is tomorrow's wonder-project, that everyone knows about (e.g. Linux kernel). If you can sing the praises of free software 24-hours a day, then Adobe has every right to treat this as a threat, and better to take care of it now then later.
If this is how companies are going to try to kill free software, we need to establish a pool of good software names that no one has trademark claims to and nail them down.
You think?
People should stop ripping off names (and consequently, attempts at name-recognition) and do exactly what you suggest.
(And imagine if Adobe tried to rippoff the name of a free-software project. Wouldn't all of
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
So can I trademark "wordprocessor" and then sue MS, Corel, etc, to not describe Word, WordPerfect, etc, as "word processor?"
That's asinine.
While I may be misinformed about what is trademarkable, I think I can fall back on the fact that it is illustration software. So can they change the name to KWoozleWozzle and then refer to KWoozleWozzle as the KDE Illustrator?
The bitch here is that it IS an illustrator (little i.)
BTW, I think that adobe is a building material, not a dwelling. Maybe you are thinking abode? (I'm mildly dyslexic, (really) maybe you are too? Those two words alone could be a test in themselves.)
-Peter
WTF is XWindows?
MS Windows? Isn't that the X Windowing System ripoff?
Anyway, I'm not clear on what your point is.
-Peter
I didn't say name it "The KDE Illustrator." I said name it KWoozleWazzle, and describe it as The KDE illustrator. (Like Kword is the KDE word processor) The point being, can someone stop me describing my "product" based on what it does because they have trademarked a (common) word (!)?
For example, can MS stop Corel using the word "word" in descriptions of WordPerfect (of course, from the beginning, I have been using the Word/WP analogy to illuminate how stupid this whole thing is.)
Or another, more concrete, example: If I have a farm equipment company, and I trademark my "Thresher" brand of threshers (whatever they are . .
If so the whole god damned system needs an enema.
-Peter
I mean, Judges do stupid stuff quite often, but do you really think that one is going to find "Adobe Illustrator" (which must be the trademark, since you can't trademark a common word) and "Killustrator" confusingly similar?
-Peter
Lack of Kreativity (a popular view of OSS). Why not just Klone a produkt *and* it's produkt name when you can just sprinkle Ks everywhere. It's less work, and everyone knows programmers have a hard time picking deskriptive names.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
The Macintosh was supposed to be named "McIntosh", after mac creator Jef Raskin's "favorite eatin' apple". However, the audio equipment company McIntosh (makers of ridiculously priced record players) already had the name, so Apple changed the name to Macintosh.
Yes, the fact that I know these bits of trivia probably means I do need to get a life.
Feel free to prepend a G or a K to these as necessary.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
What is a dissuasion fee, and why is the lawyer asking for one?
> Linux is a word that has no other meaning what-so-ever outside the realm of computers. Like the original posteter said, "Illustrator" is a generic word which describes the purpose of the program.
Okay then, Adobe's new operating system, Kaldera (caldera = vocanic crater).
Or how about Adobe's GNU/Illustrator (gnu = African wildebeest), with all profits given to the K-Free Software Foundation (a wholly owned subsidiary of Adobe...free, software, and foundation are generic terms!). Do you think those are alright?
Can anyone with a straight face tell me that they could do the fatal mistake of buying Killustrator instead of Adobe Illustrator, because of name-confusion? I think not. I rest me case.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
I don't see it. It's an English word, sure, but when someone says "illustrator" in this context I immediately know that they're talking about that specific Adobe product. "vector" is a generic term. "office" might be (since that class of applications is often known as "office suites"). But nobody uses "illustrator" to talk about the set of vector drawing programs generally.
I think Adobe is in the right here. Trademark law is one of the few useful intellectual property facilities that the government provides; consumers should not be mislead by confusingly named products.
Wasn't FrameMaker once ported to Linux? And, IIRC, Distiller does also exist in a Linux version. Also, could the behavior of Adobe be excused, if they had ported all their products over to Linux? I think not!
IMO, Adobe makes very decent software. I used PageMaker to typeset first my school newspaper and then my school yearbook and while I found the UI somewhat irritating, it produced great results. Photoship still kicks ass, and even on Linux I use PDF exclusivly when creating documents (with pdfTeX).
In the light of this, Adobe's attitude towards other companies or competition is very sad. (Kinda like Apple?)
Free Manning, jail Obama.
Fine... Hell, KDraw would probably be clearer. KVector would be fine. Hell, KVDraw would be okay.
The rest of the world extends effort on branding. They spend a fortune. The Open Source "community" can spend a 15 minute brainstorming session instead of just ripping off the name of an existing product.
I agree, I think that a fight over Word would be interesting, given the WordStar and WordPerfect issue. Additionally, renaming that is trivial, add something after word. KWordPro would work, if there was a fight. Illustrator however is a fight you'll lose, and SHOULD lose.
Alex
Adobe Illustrator is NOT descriptive. It is a vector based drawing program. Word is a Word Processor. Word is used descriptively. Word is a WEAKER trademark in this regards than Illustrator.
However, ask yourself why the KDE team named their vector based drawing program KIllustrator and their word processor KWord? It is INTENDED to capitalize on the good will of Adobe and Microsoft.
Can any of you HONESTLY say that KIllustrator isn't similar to Illustrator. It is designed AS a knock-off product with a similar name. It is INTENDED for a user to think, wow, this will be similar to the Illustrator that I know.
Why does the Free Software "community" do stuff like this? The rest of the world is comfortable competing (with a few monopolies excluded) fairly. Why does the "community" feel that they can appropriate the names of their competitors.
Linux is NOT just a play toy any more. Severally publically traded companies use it as a basis for business. Many more privately held companies use it as well.
If the whole point of "open source" was to make Free Software viewed favorably in the business community, maybe it is time to grow up.
Referring to Microsoft as M$, MacroHard, etc., does't help you.
If you DON'T care about the business world, than just ignore them and do your own thing. But if your goal is to get your software used, why don't we try acting like adults.
Companies are NOT going to adopt Linux and other "community" projects if its proponents INSIST on acting like 15 year olds.
Act like adults. You're playing with the big boys now, which is quite an accomplishment. But childishness, appropriating trademarks, etc., isn't getting you anywhere.
Declaring everything generic, obvious, and not worthy of protection isn't getting you anywhere. Microsoft is going to succeed in banning government funding of GPL'd work if they are able to paint their opponents as 15 year old intend on undermining the cause of productivity increases of the past 15 years.
The GPL turns copyright on its head. It allows cooperative based development. However, it undermines IT development companies.
First step of winning this public relations war is to act like adults. The NEXT step is to start respectfully competing. And copying everything from everyone else, including names, isn't going to convince the public that you are innovating and improving the economy. It makes you look like children.
My business is based upon various Open Source programs. The "community" earns my company and others a bad rap.
Alex
And I'd like to believe that everybody is free to derive products name from commomly used descriptive words, regardless of previous trademarks. It stands to reason. But reason and law have divorced many years ago, making happy the lawyers population. Therefore I won't bet on that one, too.
Ciao
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FB
First, Adobe *has* to do this. I realize most /.ers don't understand IP law past "information wants to be free!", but trademarks have to be defended in order to remain valid.
If Adobe allowed KIllustrator to exist as a product and didn't do anything about it, Microsoft could (for instance) release a product called MS Illustrator. Adobe wouldn't be able to do anything about it -- they didn't fight KIllustrator, what possible objection could they have to MS Illustrator? They would very likely lose their trademark if they knowingly allowed a clearly similar product to use such a similar name. I doubt very many of you would take Microsoft's side in that fight, so why do you all take KOffice's side? Oh, right, open source guys should be able to do whatever the hell they want and all big companies are evil. Silly me, I forgot.
Second, I keep seeing people say you shouldn't be able to trademark simple words. Okay, "Windows" is a simple word. So you don't think Microsoft should be able to fight a piece of software called "KWindows"? Probably not. How about "Doom"? Another software. Should id software just blithely accept it if some Linux geek writes a first-person shooter called "KDoom"?
Folks, "Illustrator" is a graphics package by Adobe. The name "KIllustrator" was almost certainly chosen *because* of the name "Illustrator", not just as a coincidence. The fact that it's an open-source project does not grant it legal immunity, and it doesn't excuse such shameless and unethical trademark violation. Yes, that's right -- I consider it unethical for the authors of this program to have blatantly copied the name of a successful graphics package. How can you defend that?
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
You can't have it all! 3D software is doing better in getting ported to Linux than nearly any other commercial sector. Maya, Houdini and Performer are all across to start with. I guess you are looking for 3DSMax, Softimage and Lightwave, but if I remember correctly Softimage and Lightwave are both coming! Just because your favourite app hasn't been ported to your favourite OS does not mean you can knock the OS! I would guess graphics professionals from an SGI platform would make the exact same comments about having to keep their Indy/Onyx/Reality Station around if they are trying to change to any other platform. Video Editing software on the other hand ... it would be nice to see anyone porting over to Linux.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
If "Adobe Illustrator" did not exist I do believe that the KDE guys could still have called the ap KIllustrator! Propose some other names for me.... KDrawer has Corel unhappy and doesn't read as well. KSketcher doesn't read well and sounds more amateurish. KPaint ... well it's not a paint program. Need I continue? Is their a more obvious name that should have been used which means the same and doesn't conflict with a commercial Ap? Now if they had called it KDE Illustrator ... perhaps I would allow an argument but as all companies seem to like to insist that their product is called "Adobe Illustrator" and NOT "Illustrator" so as to ensure higher brand awareness I think they should be told to FO when they claim that "Corel Illustrator" is conflicting. Without the company name qualifier Illustrator is an English word used normally to describe the programs action, if they wanted to have a protectable name they should have called it "A.V.I.C.T." for adobe vector illustration computer tool and then KDE would never have released KAVICT or even KVICT. Adobe are just trying to bully their way out of a stupid decision, I hope someone can give the KDE guys some good Legal advice and that they can tell Adobe to FO.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Why I asked for a name is because Illustrator is an extremely obvious and descriptive name for the product! Windows on the other hand is not so obvious (yes we call them windows, but are they?) so it is feasable to protect from another gui OS or window manager calling itself Windows. Could I release a word processor called writer and try to stop anyone else using the name (originality issues not withstanding)?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Not to beat this into the ground, but all a project has to do is insure that it's "owners" have nothing worth suing for, cause when the law is this stupid you gotta hold it in contempt!
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Linux is a word that has no other meaning what-so-ever outside the realm of computers. Like the original posteter said, "Illustrator" is a generic word which describes the purpose of the program. I don't see it as being any worse than StarOffice or OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Office.
Yeah, you're right. And if this were about patents, Adobe wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But it's about trademarks, not patents. And Adobe's right; calling an Illustrator-like program 'KIllustrator' seems to be a direct attempt to say, in effect, to the customer: "It's like Illustrator, only it runs under KDE!" Take the GIMP; it's often referred to as a Photoshop clone. But it's not called 'KPhotoShop', or 'FreePhotoShop' or anything so Adobe doesn't care.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Since when can you trademark a work as common as "illustrator" when applied to computer programs?
Seriously, I've seen many programs that are advertised as an "illustrator tool" or such.
I mean, look in the dictionary, it has 4 different definitions! Can you trademark all four uses for it?
Ever need an online dictionary?
The example that gets thrown around most often is "Coca-Cola" and "Coke". If it weren't for trademark protection, all sorts of folks would try to make cheap knock-offs of Coke and sell them in red cans designed to look the same on the shelf. Fortunately, as a consumer, when you see the can that looks like Coca-Cola, you can be sure you're going to get what you expect. It's quite legal to make a similar cola, and many companies do, but if you make the can the same red/white color and use similar fonts, you've stepped over the line.
As far as Adobe is concerned, it's easy to see their concern that their customers (or perspective customers) may be looking at various linux (gnu/linux) distributions and say to themselves "Wow, Linux now has KIllustrator, and Illustrator is the thing that's been holding me back from giving Linux a try", or even "Illustrator is expensive, but it I buy this cheap Linux CD, it comes with the 'K' version of Illustrator; what a bargain!" It's easy to see how someone could mistake it for a "lite" version of the "real thing".
What does seem strange is Adobe's demand for a relatively small sum of money. I would have expected them to demand an immediate name change.
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
sounds like they are being selective. can this be used against them (you either defend ALL your trademarks or none...)
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
I know it is a lot for a developer to cough up for a software project they don't even make money on. That's not what I'm trying to say.
Just that it seems that if Adobe really wanted to get them to stop using the name, they would have said "stop right now, hand over your firstborn son or we'll sue you into oblivion".
This seems (and having not read the letter from Adobe's Lawyers, I can only surmise) more like they said "well, we can't just let them go around using a similar-sounding name, but they really aren't doing us any harm... what, should we throw a letter over to them and ask for a couple grand or something?"
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There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
That was the generic name for programs like Illustrator once upon a time. Though I don't doubt there's a principle here -- there's a running thing on the Register about a company called EasyGroup that's been cracking down on Easy*.com sites.
Funny, back in middle school I wrote an OS shell for the Commodore 128 called EasySys -- am I in violation?
/Brian
what about ClarisOffice (which today is known as AppleOffice)
You mean ClarisWorks / AppleWorks. AppleWorks was originally available for the Apple ][ series of machines in the late 1970s... and is now available for Mac OS X. As far as the "Office" name, I don't know how far back it goes, but the software for the Lisa (Apple's original GUI machine in 1982 - 1984) was Lisa Office System. The Macintosh shipped in 1984 with apps such as MacWrite, MacPaint, and MacDraw (all Apple apps). Microsoft made a Mac GUI version of Word later that year.
Adobe legally must enforce its trademarked names, or they fall into common usage. If they fall into common usage, Adobe no longer has legal protection over the name. So if Adobe fails to enforce its rights over a name for a similar product with which there is a high probability of confusion between its product (Illustrator) and K's product (Killustrator), it looses the rights to the Illustrator name. It's not a conspiracy. It's just what they have to do to run their business.
The issue here is moot. Its a common name. A simple word.
To pull an example from the non-computing world, "Dodge" is a fairly common word, yet do you believe you could get away by starting a car company named "Dodger"?
by having a project which is not-for-profit, and realeases source code under a free license, i am within my rights to infringe on anyone's patent or trademark or any other form of IP.
I don't think that's really the issue here. The issue is that "illustrator" is a word for a specific job and task- making illustrations. Adobe's program that is used to create illustrations is called "Adobe Illustrator". They think Killustrator is too close of a name. But is it, really? Is the name MacPaint infringing on MS Paint (or vice versa, MacPaint was probably first, now that I think about it)? I don't think there is anyway someone could confused Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, so it would not seem to be a trademark violation. If they called it "Adobe kIllustrator", maybe then it could cause confusion.
I think people try to go way to far in trying to control the use of common dictionary words... This is an example of that. It's an illustration program, what the hell else are they going to call it? Will the company that makes "Sound Edit" now sue any company that makes an audio program with the word edit in the title? Should MS sue the makers of StarOffice? or Corel, didnt they have software called CorelWord?
Josh Sisk
Do you have issues with the fact that the company name is registered as a trademark? If so, you are essentially saying that one can only trademark words or phrases not in the accepted lexicon.
is there room for consumer confusion? Yes
It bears repeating... of all the intellectual property laws, trademarks are the most clearly justified, since both producers and consumers benefit from them. A trademark isn't a product, it's an identity, and the consumer generally benefits by knowing who he's dealing with and what product he's purchasing.
No, you can trademark common names. Ford is a trademark (and a passing), Apple is a trademark (and a fruit), Adobe is a trademark (and a dwelling)...
But trademarks that common can only be associated with a class of trade. For Adobe, Illustrator covers computer software. That means someone can release a trademarked item for a supply of painting aids, like brushes, with the name Illustrator, too.
It's when the name becomes unique, like "Microsoft", that the trademarked name itself is hard to trademark again by another company.
So, from trademark law, Adobe's full in their right to kill the name Killustrator, because it is similar to their trademark. However, why not rename it to Killware or something else? Make it unique enough, then Adobe has nothing but hopes that their money can help them win.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
The new first-person shoot-em-up that's sweeping the nation! Use your vector and spline drawing tools to hunt down and exterminate art department interns gone BAD!
Killustrator! For Mac, PC, PSX2, and X-Box. (An unsupported Linux version is available for alpha download.)
Honorary Member of Jackie Chan's Kung Fu Process Servers
Or KWAKBAS (KWAKBAS WAs Killustrator But Adobe Sued)
This, and putting a message on the splash screen & about box urging people not to buy anything from Adobe. Like Graphics Workshop (Windows image-converting shareware) did with Unisys.
They could call it Kltpzyxm, but then every user would be hurled into the 5th dimension!
Adobe also made a version of Framemaker for Linux, which I still have on my hardfile.
A host is a host from coast to coast, but no one uses a host that's close
The real threat to adobe whould be if killustrator got ported to OSX (a good posibility givin OSX's Unix underbelly). how many graphic artists using Macs would abandon Illustrator for a free version? there is already a lot of interest in GIMP, the free photoshopish application .
No serious graphic artist in their right mind is going to give up Illustrator or Freehand or Photoshop for free versions of apps with functionality that only matches standards that were acceptable 5 or 6 years ago. The GIMP is great for people who really don't need to get serious commercial quality work done under serious deadlines and just want to create simple graphics for the desktop or web pages, but for those of us who actually do need to get work done fast and efficiently, well I'll stick with Photoshop and Illustrator despite their hefty price tags. One or two job can pay for both apps very easily!
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Pooty tweet
But that assumes that someone picks the hardware first and then picks the operating system. Often times, this isn't the case. Most consumers, for example, wouldn't buy a computer that's three times as fast as an Intel-based machine of the same price, but that doesn't run Windows.
It seems to me that they are filing under trademark law, but not in the USA. In the USA a trademark may not be filed if it is for a generic term. In a perfect world. But the world is not perfect, and may trademarks are granted (Toast, anyone? Perhaps SSH?) If a company builds a brand name that is obscure (Yahoo!, for example) then all well and good, I believe they ought be able to preserve that; but I do not believe you should be able to file and receive a trademark for a name which describes the product and/or its abilities. ie Illustrator.
Just my 2c.
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Video meliora proboque deteriora sequor - Ovidius
thesaurus.com
Or, for the lazy...
synonyms for "artist"
And...
definition of "trademark"
<caveman>
Adobe no GPL! Adobe no Linux! Adobe for profit! No like Adobe!
</caveman>
That's what trademarks are for, to protect Mom and Dad from being ripped off.
This is an entirely different issue: Here Adobe is doing the rip-off: They are trying to deprive us of the use of the word "Illustrator". That's what's wrong with trademarks today, they are not any longer a mean to protect us from rip-offs, they are used to deprive us of our natural language, our common cultural heritage.
You don't seriously think that anybody will konfuse Killustrator with Adobe Illustrator, do you? Really?
OK, I agree that Killustrator isn't the most kreative name, but hell, Adobe could have been more kreative too, if they wouldn't want anybody else to use the same word.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
From my email of 29 June 2001 to UK Patent Office. I was explaining to them the solution to trademark use on the Internet. Neither the United States Patent and Trademark Office or the Department of Commerce could deny my assertions.
"Every word in our dictionary seems used for trademarks in the whole English-speaking world. Most are used many times over. Your search engine is not as good as USPTO, but was able to find following - JUST IN THE UK ALONE:
a. Words from Alpha (very many entries inc. E232330) to Zeta (many inc. 773747).
b. Words from Aardvark (several inc. E207464) to Zulu (few inc. 1365085)."
WIPO.org.uk
Maybe the name cut too close to the bone?
sulli
RTFJ.
I'm not defending Adobe here -- but who knows, maybe they have a Linux Illustrator in the works, and have reason to defend their trademark? Just something to think about...
Intellectual honesty time: Would KIllustrator have that name if Adobe Illustrator didn't exist?
Here's the real question, tho: Why do Window-hating Linux developers clone of Windows applications and technologies? We have clones of Word, Visio, TWAIN -- hell, KDE and Gnome often try to clone Windows, right down to the damnable "Start" button.
YUCK!
Of course, Linux itself is a clone, so maybe I'm expecting too much of its developer community...
Write a killer app for Linux, and people will come.
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Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
Sounds like those environmentalists who destroy property to protest the destruction of the environment... ;)
My point is: Why would Joe Shmoe move his officeplace to Linux, if Linux presents itself as a clone of Windows? Office apes don't care about free software; they just want to do their job. Why go with a Linux clone when you can just buy Windows have have the original?
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Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
Um, actually they do have a trademark on "Illustrator" : http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=ck s87k.4.11
I didn't think you could trademark a generic word (e.g. a word that's in the dictionary), but I guess this shows that you can.
You've got to understand what a market is. A market is NOT the general population. A market is a population of consumers who is a subset of the general population, and what statistics and assumptions that apply to the general population do NOT apply to a market. Adobe does excellent market research and product development. There are lots of Linux servers, but very few medium to large corporations use Linux as a server platform. It's changing (thankfully), but not that quickly. Why would Adobe develop a product for Linux when it's main customer for server applications (medium to large-sized corporations) doesn't even run the platform? Don't you think Adobe would develop and MARKET a product if they thought they could make money from it? The Linux community is NOT a money generating consumer base. Why would Adobe try to sell a product to folks who can get most of what they want for free?
Oh yeah, and thanks for catching my Copyright/Trademark slipup.
People may not like Adobe just because they don't write stuff for Linux, but that is Adobe's choice. A company that is out for profit isn't obligated to write software for a particular platform just because many people feel that it's the right thing to do. This is a company that sells stock and is obligated to turn a profit. Writing this type of software for the Linux OS may not be the right thing to do for the business. Remember, this is the company that didn't write stuff for Windows until the early to mid-90's simply because they didn't think it was economically feasible.
But getting back on topic, maybe people should consider copyright infringement issues before they name their software. Being contrarian for it's own sake is silly.
This would be a very interesting thing to see resolved. Yes, KIllustrator is a confusingly simlar name. But the two products are not in direct competition. They don't even run on a common platform. Toss in that one is free and you raise all kinds of questions about damages.
Tacking something on a generic name is the standard for the industry:
MS Windows, X-Windows
AutoCAD, IntelliCAD
WordStar, Word Perfect, MS Word, AMI Word Pro
MS Office, Word Perfect Office, McAfee Office
Adobe Photoshop, Corel Photopaint
MS FrontPage, Adobe Pagemaker
MS Windows 2000, Norton Utilities 2000
See how the same words keep popping up in similar or even totally different packages?
Maybe there can be a slight change that would solve the problem. Maybe KDE Illustrator as someone suggested.
Because if some decision isn't reached, it's going to get a lot worse if everyone has to battle over names.
Viv
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Viv
Gmail invites for ip
Or maybe it's fraud? Somebody impersonating Adobe's lawyers? Seriously, does anybody have a link to the original message from Adobe? Other corroboration?
It's not just the userbase, you understand, but the graphics and print culture that has to exist in Linux.
If Adobe were to port Photoshop, Illustrator, etc, to Linux, it almost requires that Linux have it's own printshop culture to sustain the growth and development efforts.
It's like asking the Japanese to import dolphin meat into the US just because we like Anime and eat sushi; there isn't the cultural support for the eating of dolphins for that to be feasible...
Geek dating!
GPL Deconstructed
What about "Kill Us, Traitor!", referring to Adobe stabbing the non-Windows community that backed them up (Postscript, anyone?).
So I would say, don't change the name. Just add an "i": killustraitor .
It is understandable that Adobe is annoyed.
Killustrator sounds like "Kill Illustrator."
It amazes me how socially backward companies are, however. Adobe's way of defending the trademark has the opposite result that is intended. Annoying Slashdot people is the best way I can think of to eventually kill Illustrator. Adobe has assured that 1) KDE Illustrator has world-wide publicity among knowledgeable people, and 2) there are thousands of people who will now give the KDE version support.
Maybe it will be 5 years, or maybe it will be 10, but eventually all the features in Adobe Illustrator will be available in KDE Illustrator, and that will be the end of Adobe's product. Whereas, if Adobe maintained a good relationship with the computing community, maybe the open source programmers would work on other projects instead.
Bush's education improvements were
Good idea! KDraw is a better name, anyway.
Bush's education improvements were
Did you notice that the online dictionary definition for "Illustrator" is in error. The definition given is for "Illustrate".
Bush's education improvements were
I'm distressed that I have to agree that use of the 'Killistrator' name is probably indefensable, from a trademark perspective. I wish it were. There doesn't seem to be an approach to this case that would provide protection for it's use in relation to a graphics program.
On the otherhand, if we were to create a first person shooter in that name, let Adobe try and fight that. Perhaps in this came you blast the heads off little pissant corporate lawyers. Sounds fun doesn't it?
--CTH
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--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
I wonder how Slashdot readers would respond if Microsoft decided to release a new, closed-source product called Microsoft Graphical Image Manipulation Program, Microsoft GIMP. The phrase "image manipulation program" is no more unique than the word "illustrator." Adobe's case is slightly questionable, but it's wrong to conclude out of hand that they are on the wrong side of things.
Microsoft had gotten this to the level of an art.
Office, Word, Internet Explorer, SQL Server, *Flight Simulator*, etc...
Of course, they also have stuff like Microsoft Transaction Server ( that doesn't do transcations ) and Microsoft Application Server ( that doesn't serve applications ) to prove that they probably just use random words out of a dictonary.
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Two witches watch two watches.
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Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
No, that is silly.
Use the more traditional way:
TAFKAK
The Application Foremrly Known As KIllustrator
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Two witches watch two watches.
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Two witches watched two watches.
Which witch watched which watch?
But I didn't say that "Megadraw" was less descriptive. I said that Adobe went for descriptive as their first priority, and chose "one that is completely generic and was already used for that purpose when Adobe used it."
With the possible exception of Vector, I've seen programs with names that are either those you suggested or derivatives. Indeed, two of the names you suggest, Painter and Drawer, are derivatives of words Microsoft uses in their product names! (MS Draw is a free (as in beer) add-on component to Microsoft Office, downloadable from their website - I have it installed on my machine at work)
Is anyone going to get confused between KIllustrator and Adobe Illustrator? Well, were they confused between PC Paintbrush, Deluxe Paint, and Windows Paint?
FWIW, a lot of people are suggesting that there's such a thing as a "vector drawing" program. While, technically, that's true, a delve into it would reveal that there's several categories of package that falls under that category, from print-orientated CAD-derived packages, through diagram makers, to illustrators - programs designed for the express purpose of allowing an artist/graphic designer to produce illustrations. Each of these is aimed at a different application - the fact that you can scale what you draw without losing resolution doesn't mean that "they're the same" or that they work the same way.
Both Photoshop and Deluxe Paint edit bitmaps, but few people would suggest that they're aimed at the same application. A ZDNet article comparing the two would be rightly ridiculed, even if Deluxe Paint development had continued to the present day with the advanced functionality you'd expect for a decade more of development.
It's certainly legitimate to refer to KIllustrator as an illustrator in the same way as it wouldn't be to refer to Visio, or AutoCAD, or even MS Draw, as an illustrator. You wouldn't refer to Photoshop as a paint program, and you wouldn't refer to Windows Paint as a photo editor. People who miss this point and assume that unbelievably generic titles like "Vectorizer" would be appropriate, perhaps, might find it worth their while delving into the subject a little more closely.
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KMSMA (WWBD?)
This Free software developer could sure use some hints as to the proper course of action - apart from hiring an expensive lawyer of his own.
sig sig sputnik
Nobody called the program Kadobe!
That's because George Lucas threatened to sue.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
"Illustrator" means "one who illustrates". If someone else makes a program for creating and editting illustrations, why can't they also call it "illustrator"? It describes what it does. IMHO, Adobe should not be assumed to be on firm ground in their demand to take title to the word "illustrator", capitalized or un-. The only thing they should be assumed to have title to is the string Adobe Illustrator.
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Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
no infringement there, either. duh.
Shouldn't generic descriptive terms like 'explorer,' 'illustrator' 'word' and 'paint' be free for all to use?
Do you suppose that the KDE guys would have called the program KIllustrator if there weren't a similar product with a well-known name out there? I have to say that I see Adobe's point of view on this. But what's the big deal? Pick a new name, and move on. Projects (especially Open Source projects) live and die by their quality, not by their clever name.
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
Red Apple? Oh boy. You'll risk being sued by Red Hat and Apple Computers. Just to be safe, use Green Grapes, Inc.
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