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Embracing Digital Photography

MBCook writes: "This story at ZDNet seems to be an omen of things to come. It describes how Kodak discovered that when their software is installed on XP and someone plugs in a Kodak camera, Microsoft's software is always the one that comes up. The article also mentions that it is also quite a effort to make the Kodak software come up ever time." Yet another software maker finds that the maker of the OS gets first dibs...

22 of 271 comments (clear)

  1. Enough already! by The+Man · · Score: 3
    I'm beyond trying to understand how this is relevant. Everyone already *knows* Microsoft does these things, and most people already believe that it's evil. And as long as you continue to buy their products, Microsoft will continue these practices.

    Fucking put up or shut up, folks. Don't like Microsoft's evil business practices? Then it's so simple: don't buy their products. So much righteous indignation, and yet so little sense... It's hard to argue with Mr. Gates when he says his customers like his products...after all, you keep buying them, don't you?

    1. Re:Enough already! by 1010011010 · · Score: 5

      It is valuable to complain about and publicise each event, so that no one gets the idea that Microsoft has reformed.

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    2. Re:Enough already! by jhoffoss · · Score: 5

      The problem with this, is sometimes M$ manages to put out the best product, regardless of whether it's stolen from someone else or not. GNU/Linux is awesome and I run it half the time, but there are simple things that it can't come close to. Things like the clipboard? I can copy something from IE and paste it into Word and it's formatted the same way, be it a table or whatever. Just to name one thing. There are many others too, but I'm not here to nitpick Linux. My point is for some things, M$ deserves some credit. But either way, I should not be forced to use IE for a web browser, or their photo software for my camera. For that, I must (must, by choice) use inferior products, which just pisses me off.
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    3. Re:Enough already! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5
      get out of dreamworld and into the real world.

      you and I both understand and hate M$. but we're NOT the typical user.

      at every company I've been at in the last 10 yrs or so (I'm a software engineer), winblows has been on the desktop of all employees except for us software guys.

      accounting, sales, marketing, execs - they all use winblows. they're forced to - they have no choice - the i/s department usually only supports M$ on the desktop.

      so it doesn't really become a matter of choice. you work for a company, they put an M$ box on your desk. you eat the dogfood they feed you.

      knowing that M$ owns the corporate desktop (and most home desktops as well), its easy to see how M$ wants a cut of each chargable action. and by placing their apps ahead of others in the default selection gives them unfair advantage. and even though kodak seems to have tried their best to work with M$ on this, M$ turned a cold shoulder and only after a bit of publicity did they consider changing XP to be more vendor neutral.

      It's hard to argue with Mr. Gates when he says his customers like his products...after all, you keep buying them, don't you?

      total flamebait. like I said, in corp america, there's no choice; you must use M$ or the i/s dept. won't support you. its a well known monopoly at the corp level, whether you think you have a choice or not (and you don't).

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    4. Re:Enough already! by ichimunki · · Score: 3

      So my question is, does the cut and paste still work if you go from Netscape to Word? How about Opera to Word? How about from WordPerfect to Word?

      Are the system calls that perform this cut and paste even available to non-MS developers? If I want to, can I write my web browser so that it does this correctly? And most importantly, can I do it without paying MS a whole boat load of money to license that piece of the library? And what's to stop them from completely breaking this in the next "upgrade"? They wouldn't do that, would they?

      FWIW, the cut and paste functionality between browser and word processor works just as well in KDE (between Konqueror and KWord) as it did for me on my corporate Windows desktop between Netscape and Word. To me, this is just another indication that the main success of Windows and Office (together, not separate) is that they present a homogenous interface and application space. This precludes other software manufacturers from even having a realistic chance to compete in any arena where MS has decided it should dominate.

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  2. Kodak should just not support XP by iabervon · · Score: 3

    Kodak still controls their own packaging. They could probably simply say on it that the software and camera don't work with Windows XP. Considering how much trouble MS is going to have getting people to switch to XP, it might be best to simply discourage the use of XP if MS is going to do this sort of thing.

    If people have the impression that, if they switch to XP, they'll have to go through a complicated process to get their computer to work with their camera, plus pay extra to get prints, it's only to MS's disadvantage.

  3. F*ck you, Kodak by Sloppy · · Score: 4

    The Kodak team felt double-crossed. They had worked with Microsoft and the camera industry for a year

    Same old story, how many times have we heard it? In the early 90s, I was still able to feel sympathy whenever a story came out about a Windows developer getting backstabbed by Microsoft. Then after a dozen or so instances over a few years, where idiots still didn't learn from the mistakes of those who preceeded them, I stopped feeling sorry for them, and started laughing at them. Whenever someone makes a deal with the devil, it always ends the same way: with a pitchfork rammed up their ass. It gets to be a classic punchline, the same every time. Instead of the joke getting old, it becomes anticipated and expected. When the Church Lady says, "Who could it be? Oh, I don't know. Could it be..." it's built up and you know what's coming next, but it's still funny.

    But just as sympathy had given way to sadistic pleasure at the lemmings' misfortune, there finally came a point where my pleasure was replaced by anger at the victims themselves. "We were legitimizing NT as a Web server platform," Tim O'Reilly said. The victims weren't just screwing themselves, they were making the world a worse place in the process, by increasing Microsoft's power.

    And that's why now, I can only say: Fuck you, Kodak. Your loss is Microsoft's gain. Your loss isn't nearly as important as the fact that you, like O'Reilly, have helped to "legitimize" them, which helps to insure that you will not be the last lemming. You've helped to pave the way for future victims, with one more bullet item on the feature list in Microsoft brochures.


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  4. This story reveals a weakness in MS's strategy by sethg · · Score: 5
    Before the antitrust trial, Microsoft used its muscle against its suppliers and distributors (who need Microsoft's favor in order to stay afloat) and small high-tech companies (who didn't have the resources to take Microsoft on).

    But now, many "old economy" companies, like Kodak, want to get their fingers into Net services. These companies can afford their own antitrust lawyers, they have their own image of respectability, and they don't depend on Microsoft's goodwill for short-term revenue or stock price. Therefore, they have more to gain by playing hardball with Microsoft than by meekly cooperating with Microsoft's business plans.

    The 800-pound gorrilla has to start playing with the 1500-pound tigers.
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  5. Re:read the article by mindstrm · · Score: 3

    Right.. because they are providing a 'service' in acting as a conduit between the user and the .com photo printing site.
    That, combined with passport, and it really can be that simple.

    So, as much as *I* don't like the idea of MS-centralized everything, I can see where they are going, and I can see why it will be popular.

    Besides, it's up to that same .com whether to go the microsoft way or another way, no? Of course, that's where antitrust comes in.. because there may be no other choice.

  6. Chances. by Matt2000 · · Score: 4


    I don't know about you guys, but I think that MS is pushing things at a time when they aren't as strong as they used to be.

    Sure, the anti-trust ruling was recently overturned in part, but that whole process sent an important message to the industry - that MS really is prepared to do almost anything to win, and that there are large companies that oppose them.

    Microsoft still dominates the desktop, but important mindshare is being lost as Windows loses ground on the sever market. This doesn't matter for users of digital cameras yet, but the decision makers in companies are beginning to consider alternatives, something they haven't done in a while.

    That, coupled with the fact that no one really wants a new version of Office, means that their revenue is under pressure. So they try to insert themselves in other people's revenue streams. This might be just the exact wrong time to be attempting all this.

    I know MS still looks as strong as ever, but something like 40-60% of it's revenue comes from Office upgrades, of which a large percentage is bulk corporate purchasing. If any of this drys up, or slows down (as it did with the introduction of Win2k), then any kind of revolt on behalf of the companies providing supporting programs to Windows (like Kodak) could really be trouble for MS.

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  7. Kodak-specific? by szcx · · Score: 4
    It seems that Kodak's installer isn't registering itself with the system correctly. The software that comes with the Powershot S100 (from Canon) runs fine under XP.

    Additionally, XP is beta code (insert "Duh!" here). It's not exactly unheard-of for software designed for previous versions of any operating system to have problems on new, beta versions. Isn't it just a little disturbing that Kodak is threatening to unleash lawyers before the XP now? Shouldn't they wait for the release, then if it still overrides their settings and they're absolutely sure its not a malfunction in their install process, then they should consider legal action.

    1. Re:Kodak-specific? by mblase · · Score: 3
      Shouldn't they wait for the release, then if it still overrides their settings and they're absolutely sure its not a malfunction in their install process, then they should consider legal action.

      No, because by then it'll be too late -- Microsoft's software will be purchased, users will be using MS software and not Kodak's, and MS will only have it fixed in the next service pack a few months later, which most users won't know to download anyways.

      Kodak tried to work things out, couldn't do it, made threats, and finally (according to the article) got things worked out in the latest beta build. They only threatened when it appeared that MS was refusing to listen and going ahead with their own plans for the rest of the beta cycle.

  8. Embrace and Extend has been replaced by Infonaut · · Score: 5
    by Grab and Choke ;-)

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  9. Ok. I'm confused. by bons · · Score: 3
    [i]More troubling, the Kodak team found that the new program steered orders for picture prints to companies that would have to pay to be listed in Windows, and that these companies also would be asked to pay Microsoft a fee on every photo sent through Windows.

    "We were being frozen out," says Mr. Gerskovich, a 44-year-old Kodak vice president. "Consumers were effectively being denied a choice of which photo software they could use. More important, they should be able to send photos to any Internet printing service they choose--without paying a tax to Microsoft."

    Ok, fine.
    Now explain this to me.

    Kodak so far has been unable to create digital products or services that could replace film in the all-important consumer market. Mr. Gerskovich's camera and its allied software are seen as the best hope. The company's plan is to use the Internet to drive its digital-camera customers directly to Kodak picture labs to buy their prints.

    Are they upset simply because Microsoft beat them to the punch with the same business model? Kodak is trying to use their software to steer customers to use their products. Microsoft is trying to use their softwarwe to steer customers to use their products. What the heck is the difference?

  10. reminds me ... by Dlugar · · Score: 5

    Anyone ever see that Dilbert cartoon where Dogbert makes a billion dollars with his software company? They go out walking and Dilbert says, "Yeah, but money can't buy a sunset, Dogbert."

    To which Dogbert replies, "No, but I licensed the digital rights."


    Dlugar
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    Computer Go: Writing Software to Play the Ancient Game of Go
  11. read the article by jchristopher · · Score: 5
    Read the article, it's actually WORSE than it seems at first glance! Microsoft wants their software to popup when the camera is plugged in, because they plan to charge the .com photo print sites PER PHOTO that passes through their OS.

    Example: Joe Sixpack plugs in his Kodak camera, MS's software pops up, along with a button that says "order a 5x7 of this picture". He clicks it, orders, and Photoprinter.com or whatever owes Microsoft a nickel. Jesus.

  12. Bill Gates as Borg... by sdo1 · · Score: 4

    In every Microsoft thread, there's always someone who will complain about the Bill Gates as Borg icon that Slashdot uses. I haven't seen him/her show up yet, but when they do, I hereby give you a virtual slap upside the head.

    But issues like this aren't Microsoft specific. There's lots of evil software companies that do lots of evil things. How many times have you installed software on a Win machine only to find out that it took over file extension associations without asking first?

    I'm finally fed up with MS myself and I'm weaning myself off their products. I've put together a RH Linux system at home and am learning what I can. And being the "PC guy" for many friends and family, I'm recommending to them all that they avoid XP like the plague (I can't possibly recommend Linux to them because these are people who can't set the clock on their VCR).

    Thankfully, I'm seeing more and more articles like this, and with any luck Joe Public will start to take notice. Circuit City learned a harsh lesson in pissing of the public with their DIVX scams. If we keep up the pressure, MS will learn the same lessons.

    -S

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  13. Re:Kodak should LART XP by Darth+RadaR · · Score: 3

    I think that the engineers at Kodak should apply a little LART. Have their software work great with Win98 & Win2K, but have the program bugger-up at random times when used on WinXP. :P

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  14. Re:As evil as this sounds.... by bmongar · · Score: 3
    Kodak does not make money selling software for their cameras, they make money selling cameras!

    But they do make money selling prints. Microsoft would also automatically connect you to their approved printsellers list. Microsoft charges a fee to be on the list, and makes money off of each pring that is printed from this referal

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  15. read the WHOLE story by lseltzer · · Score: 3
    They put this at the end of the story: >p> Microsoft continued to send out versions of Windows XP. Three weeks ago, Kodak got the latest, numbered "build 2481." Kodak engineers say this version has a new, simpler way to launch photo software after a camera is plugged in. Instead of a nine-click process of setting non-Microsoft photo software as the default, it lists competitors' programs alphabetically in a pop-up box, along with Microsoft's.

    It isn't all they want, Kodak engineers say, but it's a big improvement. Instead of a roadblock, "it's just a speed bump," Mr. Gerskovich says.

    IOW, later builds address Kodak's issues. Amazing that the WSJ chose to bury this fact.

  16. Kodak is a poor poster child by janpod66 · · Score: 3
    I suspect Kodak wants to grab this market as badly as Microsoft: they simply want to make sure that as many people as possible are automatically sent to their partner companies, rather than Microsoft's. Kodak's record in this area is prety poor, with numerous attempts at using their market dominance in film photography to push through proprietary digital image formats and digital imaging standards.

    Of course, the defense "we want to make it simpler" does have a kernel of truth: ultimate pushbutton simplicity means relieving the user of the choice of a company to send their prints to. But average consumers face that choice in the real world, so they are probably capable of making it on-line as well, without being infantilized by either Kodak or Microsoft.

  17. Now normally I don't support M$... by Snootch · · Score: 3

    ...and now I'm about to get modded down for doing so. Or possibly up, as I'm deviating from the news item's point of view and that seems to be a surefire way to get modded up nowadays. Or possibly both. What the hell, moderate me how you want. That's not my point. This is:

    Why are Kodak whining? Because Microsoft themselves are doing with their software exactly what Kodak wanted to do with theirs. See the article:

    Mr. Gerskovich's camera and its allied software are seen as the best hope. The company's plan is to use the Internet to drive its digital-camera customers directly to Kodak picture labs to buy their prints. Any Microsoft obstacle would be a critical strategic blow to Kodak

    You see? It's not that they are driving customers to certain printers by default, without their choice, but rather that they get to do this rather than Kodak themselves! You may argue that Kodak, as the people who sold the camera, have a right to do this more than MS, but from where I'm standing this is a distinct case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    43rd Law of Computing: