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Colorado May Map Drivers' Faces
mongoose14 writes: "The DMV in Colorado wants to use facial recognition to map the faces of folks and prevent identity theft and drivers' license fraud. Apart from the suspected lobbying by the manufacturers of the hardware and software, the article at least raises the BB question. Also, AFAIK, face recognition was developed in the US (?)." An excerpt from the article reads: "First it was the photo-radar vans snapping pictures of Denver-area speeders. Now, some fear Big Brother's roving eye soon will be watching all of Colorado with the arrival of a new European import called 'face recognition.'"
THE FIRST 10 AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION
AS RATIFIED BY THE STATES
Note: The following text is a transcription of the first 10 amendments to the Constitution in their original form. These
amendments were ratified December 15, 1791, and form what is known as the "Bill of Rights."
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a
redress of grievances.
Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not
be infringed.
Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a
manner to be prescribed by law.
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures,
shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand
Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;
nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any
criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall
private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and
district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be
informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory
process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved,
and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the
common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States
respectively, or to the people.
B.O.R.T.
The problem is that American governments feel free to sell every little piece of data that they're legally allowed to sell. I don't want to walk into a store and have them know who I am. Tell a marketing person that they could find out the name and address of every single person who walked into their store, and watch their eyes light up.
This is a technology that's extremely prone to abuse, and they're not offering any evidence that they won't engage in these abuses at a future date.
Nice troll btw, but according to a joint study between the American Bureau of Justice Statistics, and Cambridge University, Britain has higher rates of robbery, assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft than the United States. Additionally, Britain's crime rates are going up, while America's crime rates are going down. And this doesn't even touch Britain's high rate of home invasion. Guess that whole camera thing is working wonderfully, eh?
--
> drivers are a lot more likely to get people killed than an unlicensed
> fisherman.
Hey, that's anthrocentric. The *fish* doesn't feel that way. Report to your local PETA chapter immediately for re-education (and a yukky diet, too!).
hawk, belligerent carnivore
>Wouldn't surprise me to find a digitized photo and possibly your social security number
I suspect the 2D barcode on the back of my CO license is simply the data from the photo - the US Military IDs are the same way, so you get a good way of verifying that the photo is genuine (and a small copy of the photo under the birthdate makes it easier to spot alterations). The magstripe contains your DL# and expiration and probably your name. It's not like you can hold a whole lot of data on a magstripe. Slide yours through a reader sometime and see what comes up. The only place I've seen in CO that actually uses the magstripe is Safeway when you write a check.
As for your SSN, they CO DMV doesn't have that unless you give it to them, and they can't legally require you to. It's quite frightening the number of people that blindly give out their SSN to anyone who asks - I usually throw people for a loop when they ask me for my SSN, by asking them for a disclosure of what the intended usage is.
here in OH they are a pain in the ass about the SSN shit on the license. You can ask to have it not on there (it's "optional") yet they give you crap when you don't want it on there (at least here in NW Ohio).
.02
It is NOT illegal to have your SSN but I do NOT like it. In fact I refuse to give it out for any reason (video store rentals and shit). I lie when they ask and they *require* it.
In PA they are using video cameras and stuff to supposedly map traffic patterns and what not. They claim that they will NOT use it to find speeders. I don't believe it myself, but we shall see. It's called VMS. Maybe you want to check it out on the web. I beleive that they have IP's that you can watch the live video feeds IIRC.
I am glad that the Europeans feel safer knowing that someone is watching them from the skies, but I am not. I don't feel safe knowing that there may be a cop 20 ft behind me. It really doesn't stop someone from walking up and killing me.
I am scared of anything that gives the gov the ability to watch over me. I am my own person, I can take care of myself. I don't need "big brother" watching me.
That just my worthless
I think it was last year or perhaps the year before that Colorado (with some other states) was going to sell the digital pictures used for driver's licenses. That would have really sucked for some corporate database to have a photo on file ala Hollywood.
What I find puzzling is what rights people think these possible cameras take away (Colorado is planning on using the system for identity of pictures for driver's licenses to prevent identity fraud). The right to break the law without anyone seeing you? I don't think it exists. As long as the cameras are used in a public place where no one has the expectation of privacy, I'm not concerned. I think I've been watched in public all my life.
There is always the posibility of misuse (like storing the times when you are at certain locations, a database of who you talk to, etc.). But as long as that is restricted, there shouldn't be a problem. After all, we don't ban cars because of drunk drivers.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
how in the US (and Canada) the drivers license has become so much more than just that. IT's the universal ID card; we punish people for non-driving related crimes.
Would we consider taking away someone's fishing license because they were charged with assault?
Get real.
A drivers license should be nothing more than your licence to drive a vehicle.
Why does a driver's license need a picture, even? Heck... my fishing license doesn'thave one.
You obviously haven't renewed your CO license recently. I got mine renewed back in January, and you not only have to provide them the number, but you have to actually have your Social Security Card with you.
They claim it's to track down deadbeat dads, but I suspect that's just a BS line to make people sound unreasonable for not wanting to give out their SSN.
"What... you have something to hide?"
Well, yeah, maybe I do, and maybe it's none of your freakin' business either.
See the link below for an explanation of one recognition technology. I saw a demo from the company 4 years ago that would pick a face out of a crowd, label it, and follow the person in real time. Scary thing is that this company also makes software for processing drivers licenses. What data is getting put on that magnetic strip on the back of the liscense?
http://www.viisage.com/market.htm
They would have a very hard time recognizing Michael Jackson...
I live in a state where within living memory, people have been rounded up and imprisoned in concentration camps for the crime of having Japanese ancestors.
One dirty little secret about this crime, is that census records (that's right, CENSUS records) were used to obtain lists of Japanese-Americans and their addresses for the purpose of their illegal imprisonment.
This technology is not necessary for the purpose of ensuring that drivers know how to operate their vehicles, and I for one am not willing to trust all future governments to always do the right thing with information in their posession.
If I lived in CO, I'd go to another state to get my driver's license, and if necessary I'd rent a PO box there and have my mail forwarded.
Now, if I were a more confrontational person than I am, I'd probably burn my CO driver's license on the steps of the state capitol in Denver, and defy anyone to arrest me for driving away.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I am a Colorado resident, and I would like to clarify a few points I think some people are glossing over. A state government spokesperson who is extremely familiar with the program called into the local Mike Rosen radio talk show (a well known and popular Denver show) to discuss this system. Here are some of the points she clarified:
1. The primary purpose of this system is to prevent identity theft, which is a rapidly growing type of crime. The most basic type of identity theft (criminal obtains sufficient personal information on someone to request a new copy of their driver's license) would be directly blocked by this technology (new photo does not match old photo). And, although she did not say this, I would imagine that if there are any "close calls" or other questions, the final decision would be deferred to a human operator.
2. Contrary to an erroneous report on Friday by the AP, there are NO plans to begin photographing drivers in cars and comparing those photos to the drivers license database. This was not mentioned in the Denver Post article, but it appeared in the online version of the Denver Rocky Mountain News on Friday.
Once again, the purpose here is to combat identity theft. Mike Rosen stated that he thought this was an appropriate use of technology to combat this particular crime. He also stated that, while there are always concerns about potential future uses for these photographs, those nebulous future concerns do not lead him to oppose this technology at this time. I agree with him on both points.
Yes, it is possible to dream up many possible orwellian future uses for this technology. However, it is incumbent upon us, as citizens, to maintain knowledge of and vigilance over the actions of our elected officials to prevent future abuses of this and other surveillance technologies.
Lincoln F. Sternn
Is that You Love Big Brother?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
What? You don't think I could attain power in the US? All I have to do is run against Shrub in the next election. You think the dems will put up anyone more appetizing? Five gets you ten they run Janet Reno or Hillary Clinton or someone like that.
What? You still think I'm completely serious? You obviously haven't visited my web site. I'll leave it as an exercise for the student to figure out how much of the views expressed in these posts are actually serious (Hint, more than 0 percent)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I do have a couple of benefits over your average plonker and over the average elitist. I realize that I am not an expert in all fields. That's why I hire a real estate agent when I want to buy a house and take the advice of the bank people when I do money stuff and they tell me there's a better way to be doing what I'm doing. I also do a lot of my own research before doing anything major so that I at least have a general idea of what's going on.
Your average plonker has no clue and is usually bad at everything.
Your average elitist is an arrogant fuck (Whereas I am obviously the model of humility) and will generally not take advice from anyone nor recognize that they might possibly know more about their field of expertise than he does.
By the way, have you visited my web page? Go ahead. Click on my penis. I know you want to, and I want you to, too. That's why it's there.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
They already require your thumbprint when you get your license. On the back of the license is both a magnetic strip and a 3D bar code which I'm sure has that information embedded in it. I'd be interested to know what else is in there. Wouldn't surprise me to find a digitized photo and possibly your social security number.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
An example: Currently laws in many states mandate seatbelt use. If instead seatbelt use was not mandated but the law specifically allowed insurance carriers to not pay medical costs of anyone in the car who was not wearing a seatbelt, that would allow people to make the stupid choice if they want to and force them to live with the consequences if they get hurt in the process.
Of course, you're going to get a bunch of whiners talking about how we should coddle stupid people who would object to this. What do you expect from a generation brought up on Mr. Rogers and Barney? I'm sorry. It's a cruel world. It's supposed to be a cruel world. And overly crowded too; no room for stupid people.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
--
Free Mac Mini
Is there really enough difference in the "basic facial structure" for a computer to reliably identify people from each other? Based on some 2-dimensional raster image? Huh...
This might start off a bit off-topic but the DMV here in good ol' VA was selling all of the drivers license information that they gathered. Officials claimed to be shocked! Shocked! that people objected to this attempt to painlessly raise money for the state.
Just goes to show whether it's facial recognition or whatever I just don't think you can trust the gov't. Oh, and for all of those Euro's who are going to post "well, we've had them for a few years now..." Please, save it. You don't really know what's going on with all of that data that the gov't collects. Just wait until the next criminal outrage and you'll hear beaurecrats (sp): "well, we do have this pile of data...." This is one place where the slippery slope exists.
I don't know where it was developed, but it's been out on the street here in London for at least a year (in Newham) randomly scanning the public for criminal matches (not with any success, I should point out. Perhaps they are referring to it's use in public as being European, rather than it's development.
also, I remember a few years ago Gov. Ryan wanted to stop the state from selling DMV info and for his thoughtfulness was sued by the Marketing companies who buy the info. Ryan (and us) lost and Illinois is *forced* to sell the data. (sorry, can't find link - STFW)
Everyone who uses "Big Brother" to describe some minor step towards authoritarianism in our modern governments. You twits are crying wolf, don't you see? By the time they actually get around to forcing implants of reward/punishment chips in everyone's skulls, no one will have any interest any longer in your cries of "Big Brother! Big Brother!" It's not a solution, and people who haven't read 1984 don't care anyways (and the # of people who've read that terrifying prophesy is dwindling). Schools nowadays actively discourage reading of books like 1984 and Brave New World, because it produces moody, thoughtful children instead of happy, dumb, contented children.
But my main point is, save the 1984-esque terms for when there's something that is truly monstrous, AND which there is a good chance that public sentiment could stop. THEN, if the use of the terms wasn't diluted by overuse, their use might actually attract some attention.
-Kasreyn
Kasreyn: Cheerfully playing the part of Devil's Advocate to hairtrigger
Yeah come on guys lets not get our knickers in a twist. I'm also a Brit and have absoultly no problem with cameras scanning my face. I've not done anything so I don't care, this is for the greater good if you ask me. Replying to the first post Brit, I lived in Manhatten for a month and I felt completly safe wandering around drunk on my own late at night - hang on - maybe it was cause I was drunk that I felt safe ;-) Seriously though, I found New York just as safe as London - even Harlem. And it was a damn site more lively and better weather!
I can't help adding (and I really shouldn't) that the americans are hoplessly enslaved to their flag. They talk of freedom this, freedom that, etc etc, i didn't have the freedom to have a beer on the beach, chill out with a splif, go dancing on ecstacy, sit out on the fire escape at night (yep, that's illegal in New York), or even J Walk (whatever that is)! A cop even stop me walking down a street with a can of beer in my hand at 3 in the morning on my way home from a club. It's illegal NOT to have a beer in your hand at that time in England.
Of course, we tend to trust our government a bit more than you Americans on the other side of the pond, so maybe that's why you're opposed to the cameras. If I were living in a gun crazed, liberal nation such as the US, I'd certainly want the government to patrol the streets in order to keep me safe. In Britain, I can walk down the streets of Soho late at night without having to worry about being mugged or killed. I've never carried a gun and feel no need to.
Do you suppose that the State of Colorado will use Microsoft FaceScan? No doubt this will be bundled with other software packages in the Tyrant2000 suite. The "good" and "progressive" governments, who are only interested in public order rather than despotism, will of course use the open source alternative, GNUFace.
Toronto-area transit rider? Rate your ride.
Perhaps all citizens SHOULD have their privacy infringed. Students have their rights violated all the time! We can't vote, but we can be put to death! We are legally obligated to go to an institution which can violate our civil liberties with abandon (school). Perhaps all should be subject to such an environment. After all, students aren't any more criminals than the general populace; we just get more media attention. So if crime justifies these right infringements all should be subject to them. It's all or nothing, guys!
________
"And if the fool, or the pig, are of a different opinion...." -- J.S. Mill
So the question arises, what is an acceptable trade for security? What is a valid use of such a system? I don't like the scanning of crowds, I don't like the idea of the government (or anyone else) monitoring what I'm doing. However, a system that could pull-up footage to investigate a crime would help everyone... except the criminals.