Why Linux Won't Ever Be Mainstream

Linux won't ever be accepted as a truly mainstream OS by most vendors. The reason for this is quite simply the users. And I'm not talking about everyone, I'm talking about the 31337 h4x0r kids with the bad attitude. They're posting right here on this system, intermixed with others who often share the attitude, but also have a bit more civility. I saw this once again while learning about the Hewlett Packard 3300C flatbad scanner ... which has zippo Linux support from HP. And I don't see that changing. Keep reading and maybe I can explain why.

So I collect anime cels. I have a fairly nice collection now. Cels from Tenchi, Trigun, Ranma 1/2 among others. It's a fun hobby that I find gets me a little more involved with some of my favorite shows to have a little piece of them. Sometimes it can be horribly expensive, but often really nice cels for just a few bucks can be found.

But what do you do with these cels? Well, I framed several. Museum-quality glass ensures that they'll stick around for awhile. But I have dozens of cels, and I travel a lot ... so scanning them in and making nice wallpaper images for my desktop sure will make KDE look nice. So with that in mind I began hopping around looking for an inexpensive flatbed scanner. And I thought I had found it in the HP 3300C. At only $80, it seemed like a great deal: I didn't need 2400x2400 scans or anything, I just wanted to get 1280x1024 images off 8.5x11 cels. A quick glance through /etc/usbmgr/usbmgr.conf revealed a line for it, so I figured I was all set. OK, that was a major mistake on my part -- I should have looked a little harder, I just made the ill-fated assumption that a line in this file meant someone had made the 3300C work under Linux.

I was wrong. I've set up USB devices before. I've set up scanners before. And this one bugger wasn't about to work. So I figured I'd hop over to google and search around and see if I was missing something. After browsing around a few sites that provided me with no information whatsoever, I stumbled upon Linux-USB. Duh, the source, right? Probably should have looked there in the first place, but hey, I never claimed to be a genius. My heart sunk when I found the supported scanners list and found my cheapy HP 3300C, conveniently listed with an icon so obvious that even a moron could clearly see that his quest to scan in cels was going to be fruitless: The Red X of failure.

The site helpfully provides a little more info link with a discussion board that I figured I would read to see if perhaps work was underway. And this is where I made a shocking discovery. And if I was HP, I sure wouldn't be taking the abuse that so many people are dishing out. The discussion starts off fine. An email address to someone at HP to ask for specs. A comment about how HP should make their specs available since they are supposedly an Open Source company (even having gone so far as hiring Bruce Perens to do ... something. Well nobody is really sure what, but he does something for Linux at HP ;). The next comment was a user who returned his scanner. Another user glad that he found this page before he bought the scanner. Lucky bastard. I wish I had.

But this is where things turned sour. The messages turn from disappointed to just plain mean. HP employees are called bastards and assholes. Threats are made. They are referred to as lots of words that I would happily use in friendly conversation with a friend, but never post in a public forum read by strangers.

And thats where all of this is leading. Intermixed with this embarassing dialogue is legitimite stuff. One guy wants to write a driver. Others provide links to various support channels at HP where perhaps a request for the scanner specs might not come up empty.

But somehow I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth. I see it on Slashdot all the time, and I find it really disheartening. Its an attitude that many people have: The "You Owe Me" attitude. Certainly I'm not exempt from this attitude. If I pay for a device, dammit I want specs. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to call a company with thousands of employees "cockmasters" just because they don't want to support my operating system.

I've met a lot of people who've written a lot of open source code. Window Managers. Ethernet Drivers. X extensions. GUI Toolkits. And these people are almost always totally cool. Sure they have attitudes. They are pompous. They are proud of their work. And in most cases they deserve many more accolades then they get. But I think most of them wouldn't say something like "HP seems to be still smeeling Gates' asshole rather than coming out of it. Beware Hp, Linux is going strong and unless you recognize that and properly support your hardware under Linux, you are going to Piss in your pants one day." I'm embarassed to run the same OS as 'Casablanca' who provided Linux-USB with that choice quote. No doubt that Linux is going strong. But what does that have to do with the offensive statement that leads off? How does saying that advance anything?

This is at its worst in public forums. Mailing lists are often much more civil. I'm not saying always because every mailing list with more then a few people explodes into flames every now and then. But at least then you're talking about a private forum. There's just something about a public web board that brings the worst out in some people. Its unfortunate that because you don't sign your name, some people interpret that as a license to be a jerk.

I'm not saying drop the attitude. Linux is a superior operating system to the one that HP usually supports. But that attitude is a double edged sword. If welded childishly, it will hurt us all. I don't care if 'Casablanca' chops off his own leg, but damn it sucks that his attitude might hurt the dozens of other posters on that forum who all paid cash money for their HP 3300C scanner and may never see it supported.

The reality is that HP sells scanners and printers almost entirely to users of that "Other" OS. Writing a driver probably won't make them much money: especially not for a scanner that is going for less then a hundred bucks. Of course, releasing their specs costs them next to nothing, and for a company that has been working hard to embrace Open Source and Linux, it certainly is something cool that they could do.

In conclusion, I had to boot up windows to use my scanner. The Diablo 2 Expansion is the only other software on the partition. I scanned in a half dozens cels, rebooted, and did the rest of my work in The GIMP. It took me much much longer to get things done then I would have liked and it definitely detracts from the usability of the scanner. The scans were fine, but the overhead it required forces me not to recommend the scanner to anyone. But if HP would release the specs to this thing, I know there would be a lot of happy people besides me. HP makes quality hardware and the price is definitely right on this one.

If they don't, I have a hard time blaming them. I know that the bitchers and moaners that are so loud in random forums throughout the net (and yes, even here on Slashdot. Maybe especially here) are actually a minority. The vast majority of Linux Developers and Users are sane and calm. Sure, we have that inner glow of satisfaction that comes from knowing we have uptimes of 200+ days and we only reboot to try out newer devel kernels. But we don't feel the need to call people names because we don't get our way. I admit that I've stepped over the line more times then I should, but I try to be cool about it. And I hope others do to.

Soapbox mode: off.

Comments

Wanted: the guts to throw it all away

[Old Man Kensey]

The funny thing about issues like this is, it's all been done before. In the early 80's, Apple did something radical by bringing out the Mac.

Was it perfect? No.

Was it the best tool for certain jobs? Absolutely. In fact it turned out to be "pretty good, and easier too" for just about everything computer novices needed, and there was something there for a lot of power users too (particularly multimedia). Look at HyperCard. Look at ClarisWorks. Hell, look at MacWrite and MacPaint in the context of their times.

Apple put a lot of thought and research into designing MacOS (which was still just The System back then). Much of it has been imitated or outright ripped off. After using Macs for over 10 years, Windows and *nix for 7, I'd say the following:

Every place MacOS fails is because Apple either decided "you must do it this way, no matter what you think you want, because it's better" (example: lack of keyboard shortcuts in menus) or because they were imitating, not innovating (replacing SCSI components with IDE, IMHO, ultimately hurt the Mac).

What we need is for somebody to write a whole new OS around the Linux kernel. The first goal of this OS should be "the command line is always useful, but never necessary." The second goal should be "this OS does not try to outthink the user, but think with the user."

Essentially the usual Linux tools would still be there, with a whole new user-interface layer on top of it. Sound familiar? It should.

It's always a fatal mistake to think your company can't learn anything from the competition. The fact that Linux is not a "company" makes it no less true.

Symptomatic of a larger problem

[FFFish]

'But somehow I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth. I see it on Slashdot all the time, and I find it really disheartening. Its an attitude that many people have: The "You Owe Me" attitude.'

It's part of the 'going to hell in a handbasket' problem we've got going in this society.

The root cause seems to boil down to one thing: a lot of people these days are out for #1, and don't give a fuck for the consequences that affect others.

Maybe it's because those of us that try to play nice are too patient, too forgiving, and too unwilling to get in their faces and *demand* that they play nice. Instead, we let them walk all over us.

Myriad examples: the assholes with their 110dB subwoofer ripping through residential neighbourhoods at 2AM. The pissant little fuck who takes 30 items through the 10 items or less till. People who don't hold doors open when you both arrive at the same time. Dangerous fucking assholes running red lights. Ah, it's aggravating just thinking of all the examples.

Why do these people act like jerks? Because they can.

Perhaps it's because they're so powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Between their boss and the government, they can't fart without permission. So they take out their frustrations by pissing off everyone else. Maybe that's it.

Bottom line, at any rate, is that it's time for the nice guys to put their foot down and demand better from others. Don't like the behaviour you see? Don't be a milquetoast -- stand up and demand better!


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Re:Symptomatic of a larger problem

[dhamsaic]

I think driving is the worst. A guy died near where I live the other day because some guy, pissed at the first, cut him off and then slammed on his brakes. The first guy swerved to avoid him, got hit, flipped and crushed. The asshole drove off. I'm sure doesn't care that someone died.

I always hold the door, although it doesn't irritate me when people don't. It's not considerate, but it's not *rude* either. It just is.

The problem, though, with confronting people when they do something asshole-ish (like cut you off, or take 30 items through the 10 item checkout, or sit there and bitch at the girl running the register because they were charged tax and they don't think they should be) is that, by nature, they're assholes, and you can't predict what they're going to do.

True story: A friend of mine and I were sitting at a red light in DC when a car full of gangstas pulled up beside us. We happened to be listening to NWA's "Fuck Tha Police". For some reason, these gangstas were offended that two white boys were listening to rap, and one of them pulled a gun and held it up to the window. I ducked down, not wanting to die that night. Luckily, Brian, for some reason not sensing the fact that these weren't people he shouldn't be fucking with, opened the glove box and pulled out an ice scraper and held it up to the window. The gangstas starting laughing (thank god) and drove off (running the red light, of course). Another example of how our society is going to hell in a handbasket.
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Re:I wish....

[ergo98]

This is the attitude that kills Linux in the mainstream: users are still dumb . Nothing could be further from the truth.

The simple reality is that most "dumb users" use the computer as a tool rather than a hobby or a religion: They want to get on, do what they need to do, and get off. Calling someone who does that "dumb" is, well, dumb, and secondly it totally misses the point of mainstream users and what their motivations are (and it's why Linux isn't a blip on the radar for home users apart from the "computers define my manhood" type). Are you dumb if you don't pull and fix your own transmission? Do you make your own electricity or are you one of the dumb ones that just hooks into the city's grid? Did you make your own engine control system, or are you a dumb person with just a stock car that gets you from point A to point B?

this is nothing new...

[ywwg]

There are two things to learn from this story:

1) Check the availability lists before you buy, duh. When I got a scanner, I checked out the SANE page and went down the list, and cross-referenced that with what was up on ebay. I got a microtek E6 for 60$, and it can do 8.5x13 at 600 dpi with great color, and it has totally native support in the Gimp.

Linux has great support for sound cards, video cards, that sort of thing, but the second you stray into more exotic territory (scanners, digital cameras, etc) you gotta check the pages.

2) _Everyone_ is an asshole on forums, not just linux users. HP is not going to drop linux support because of some stupid web forum. Are windows users any more polite? What about mac users? I just think this is a non-issue. I really doubt that HP is subscribing to the linux-usb list, and if they are they aren't going to say "waahhh, they called us cockmasters... no drivers for j00!" Call them up. Have a friendly chat. You run a website that some people have heard of, this lets you do things. Bruce Perens works there? then get _him_ to talk to them! Take advantage of your connections, don't just be another email.

Is this just a Linux phenomenon?

[ChrisJones]

Fair enough the little kiddies are annoying and don't do us any favours, but I don't believe it's exclusively a Linux thing. Look at the hoo-haa about Windows 2000/XP drivers for things (notably HP gear) - I think these kiddies are all-pervasive in the computing world.
Kiddies - shut up, let those of us who at least pretend to be mature sort these things out ;)

Re:This is absolutely true.

[Rinikusu]

Jesus, if I saw you on the street and you gave me an answer like that, I'd punch your lights out.

"Excuse me, sir, where is Third and Hawkins?"

"Well, it's documented on every map of the city that there is. Maybe you should have done the research before you came around here, bothering me and asking me for my help. Why don't you go buy a fucking map?"

*punch*

agreed.

[EnderWiggnz]

time to grow up kids.

we've all been guilty of it, and its time for the insane zealotry to go.

yes, MS is the evil empire. Yes, Linux is the "better" OS.

but nobody wants to use something where they are made to feel stupid when they first sit down and use it.

Help and nurture newbies... Not laugh and ridicule. Leave that up to Mr. deRaadt... he's got enough venom for it.

I'd like to see this linux thing take of to the next level. We need to give the newbies and the less-computer "literate" a better hand, instead of the middle finger.

Re: agreed.

[dhamsaic]

The problem with the "geek" community basically boils down to psychology - inferiority complexes. And they need to feel superior in one way or another (god I'm going to get marked as a troll for this). I'm a geek. I'm an operating systems enthusiast. I use Linux almost exclusively (although I just bought a new iBook that runs MacOS X). And I like to share my knowledge, because I share your point - the more you can teach, the better. There's a saying - "He who dies with the most toys wins." This seems to be the mentality of the "geek" crowd - "I know more, so I am superior." What none of them realize is that, in the end, it doesn't matter what you know - it matters what you give the world. "He who dies with the most toys... still dies." And only the memory lives on. The world isn't bettered by people that keep their knowledge to themselves (*cough*microsoft*cough*) - it's bettered by people who give it away (Linus, etc). This is their hypocrisy.

Anyway... you can find the help if you need it. I've been using Linux since 1996, and if help is hard to find now, it was harder to find then. I recommend reading books, although I could never get into it myself. No book will ever tell you to "RTFM" - you're already doing that.

To you and the AC that replied - if you need to be pointed in the right direction, or have a question that you'd like answered, I'm open to email. fscked@leg.md.prestige.net - remove the leg. (protection against spam bots).
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Re:agreed.

[jonathanjo]

yes, MS is the evil empire. Yes, Linux is the "better" OS.

but nobody wants to use something where they are made to feel stupid when they first sit down and use it.

M$=EE: Agreed.

Linux="Better": But is it really? Is it better for everyone, or just geeks?

It seems established as the OS of choice for those with the knowhow to handle a CLI and to configure a system to their liking. That's present company.

But for people who don't know the difference between an OS and a windowing system, who don't want to learn how to configure a system but rather want to use it right out of the box, who got a computer so they could send e-mail and look at web pages and type business letters and scan pictures of the kids, maybe handle finances, all with as little overhead (of time and brain power) as possible -- these are the bulk of computer users. Can anyone bring me one such person who likes Linux?

I'm a drooling Mac user myself, so I really don't know what I'm talking about. That's why I'm asking and not telling. But this is not a trivial issue -- if you make a technology that is theoretically "superior" from a technical standpoint but don't provide an easy way for people to use it, the job ain't done yet. And Mr. Wigginz is right on -- no one likes being made to feel stupid.

(Congratulations, you've just bought the best car on the market! See all those empty spaces under the hood? You can install any carboretur, radiator, transmission, and catalytic converter you want! The customer's always right! What, you don't have 31337 m3ch4n1x ski11z? Get off the road, luser!)

([And I'll tell you one thing -- ain't no way in hell my mom's gonna go looking on discussion forums for a scanner driver! The blueberry iMac was hard enough for her to learn how to use already.])

Re: agreed.

[Carna]

Quite.

I have to say that, as a newbie myself, and a girl, it's hard to ask questions without feeling as though everyone thinks I am an idiot. An intelligent person can recognize that Linux is a superior operating system, and on that note, look to learn more about it and implement it on his or her system. But being a newbie, even a smart newbie, is no fun. Especially when you crave vast amounts of knowledge that the "l337" would rather not give over to one who might not be worthy.

For anyone with half a brain, every drop of information in this technologically growing world is like water to a flower, and those with the sustenance would do well to share. Perhaps those of us left in the dark could be an asset to the community, if someone would just let us in.

~Carna

Some thoughts

[wiredog]

I cruise slashdot at +2 and sort for highest ratings first (unless I'm moderating, sometimes a real gem is at -1). Ditto at k5. I only post to, and read, moderated sites. When I write an e-mail I save it, wait 10 minutes, re-read it, edit it, then send it. If I'm writing to (for example) Adobe, because I'm pissed at something they did , I wait an hour before I re-read it.

Re:This is absolutely true.

[DebtAngel]

Which situation is less likely to piss me, the newbie, off?

Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: RTFM
Me: What manuals? I'm not sure where to start. Point me to some decent manuals and I'll read them.
l33t: *massive arrogant l33t silence*

Or

Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: I think there's a document for that on linuxnewbie.org/a HOWTO for that on linuxdoc.org/a good book for that by O'Reilly that explains how to do that way better than I ever could. Have you read anything like that yet?
Me: No. Didn't know any of them existed. Thanks. *reads*

Telling people to RTFM is no good unless you actually hand them TFM first. How that little fact managed to escape the elitist bastards that run "help" channels (all of them are equally bad) is beyond me.

Re:This is absolutely true.

[DebtAngel]

Funny, if I go to #LinuxHelp (or #WindowsHelp, or #MacHelp, or #Commodore64Help, or whatever), I damn well expect to get some help. I expect that to be a place where I can ask some questions, and get some intelligible answers. Otherwise the channel wouldn't be masquerading as a fucking Help channel, would it? I never expected help from #Linux, but #LinuxHelp is another thing altogether.

Which is why it always boggled my mind that the #[OS]Help channels were the worst place to get help on the face of the 'net. If you want to mock newbies, go to #MockTheN00bs already. I mean, come on, how fucking hard is it to type "go to linuxdoc.org and read the HOW-TO"? Really.

I hang out on the ArsTechnica forums a lot, and I do see the same questions bandied about a lot, but at least people there are willing to give you links to threads that already deal with the subject (which is good, because there are times when you just can't find what you're looking for in a search).

I'll say it again - you can't say "RTFM" until you give somebody TFM. If you do, you look like a jackass and a hypocrite. And if you're a jackass and a hypocrite, quite frankly, you are in no position to pretend to be helping people.

idealism can be a double-edged sword

[Infonaut]

One of the interesting things about the Open Source movement and the Slashdot community is that they are so virtual. Not only do we *use* the Internet as a means of communicating and "spreading the gospel" but we are wholly dependent on it.

The good thing about being an almost completely virtual community is that news and information can spread like wildfire. For example, watch what happens when a new Linux kernel is released. For the next few days, the volume of helpful and insightful traffic on Linux boards is phenomenal. People help each other and provide all kinds of evaluations of their experiences with the new kernel. It's times like that when I start to think that Katz is on-target with all of his hot air about virtual communities changing the world.

But the flip side of this virtual community is cases just like the unfortunate H-P discussion board. Here on Slashdot, we have ways of dodging the trolls. Because of the volume of comments on this site, and the number of registered users, the Slashdot system is able to filter out the trolls and their worthless comments.

Unfortunately, most feedback mechanisms employed by Fortune 500 companies don't have such mechanisms. in fact, they would be accused of filtering out negative feedback if they attempted to use a Slashdot-style moderation system.

The painful truth is that Linux consumers aren't your average consumer. They know more about how their computers work. They expect more. They're not taken in by the p.r. and the marketing as much as your average computer user.

Why is this painful? Because we often think we know it all, and we're idealists. We know how the world of computing *should* be, and we're impatient with companies or people who get in the way of that ideal.

How we as Open Source advocates deal with that frustration begs the question: are we capable of dealing with the "unenlightened" in a mature manner, or are we the spoiled hackers many people think we are?

This is absolutely true.

[Gannoc]

I have friends who were turned off to Linux for the reason. I really mean that.

For example, back a few years ago, a friend tried to install linux, and got stuck configuring X-windows and his mouse. He went on IRC to ask for help, and got about 15 people saying "RTFM!!!!" and telling him to go back to windows if he couldn't figure out how to set up X.

So he asked where to find the manual, since he had just downloaded slackware and didn't know where anything was, and nobody replied. He gave up.

I'm trying to get him to try Debian now, but i'm sure things like this have turned off many potential Linux users.

Linux doesn't make you a better person

[ageitgey]

I go to a college where a large number of students use linux. It's just as common to see linux on someone's laptop as the "other" OS. But even here, there is a "holier than thou" attitude about linux in general. The people who use it (myself included) tend to think they are somehow better because of it. When people ask simple questions because everything in linux is new to them, the common reply is "RTFM!" or "go learn it yourself!". This attitude even extends to certain professors (who are probably reading this :) that would rather force you to buy a book than just tell you to do "ls -la" instead of "ls".

While I think that's fine if you are taking a class as a CS Major, the average user just can't put up with that crap. Their lives don't revolve around this stuff like ours do. The user ends up resentful because you made them feel stupid for asking. Why not try to help out your fellow users instead of shunning them just because they are lost? You aren't a BETTER PERSON because you installed your OS off of a debian CD than a windows CD. You are a BETTER PERSON because you took the time to help out someone.

I'm trying to put this whole philosophy into action. That's why I've set up the site in my sig. I don't want users to have to search for hours to find a program that gets the job done or find the command listed in some obscure man page. Most of the documentation avaliable for linux is useless to them because they don't understand the terminology involved. It's like telling someone to read a technical journal when what they want is the Popular Science version, because they aren't a professional like you and I.

MAC Suks! Winblows Sucks! PDP-11's Suck!

[imadork]

As long as there have been computers, there has been platform envy. Some people always feel the need to let you know why their platform is superior and why yours is inferior. I've used many platforms over the years, but prefer the Macintosh and Linux, for different reasons. I learned early on that each platform has its advantages, and that advocating one platform for everybody above all else is a pointless exercise.

However, quite a few people don't get it. Either they're too young to know anything else, or too immature to take a large view of things. These people are always the loudest, so it is assumed that they make up the bulk of that platform's user base, even if they don't.

This is a problem that has existed on every platform. (How many MAc zealots do you know?) However, it is even more of a problem for Linux because of the nature of Linux Development. Since Linux development depends (for the most part) on open code written by volunteers, the community is much more dependant on the good graces of software and hardware vendors to support Linux.

Mac developers only have to deal with Apple on a regular basis. (Of course, they may not be the most mature people either..). But Linux developers have to deal with the entire community, and the morons shout loudest. Many companies may decide that it's not worth listening to all the morons to find the one or two people who are really interested in working with them. Others may decide (as many people have done with the Mac) that since you can only hear the morons, the entire user base must (by default) be morons.

So I guess that this is a problem that won't go away, because it happens on every platform. But the open nature of the Linux community makes it much more visible. Let's hope that in the future, a rising Linux user base leads companies to want to ignore the morons, or at least just mod them down....

Re:This isnt' new...

[cicadia]

I think what's going on is that these peripheral vendors, for whatever reason, are trying to play the same lockin games that people like Microsoft and Apple play, probably trying to milk the developers for license fees.

That's an old game for peripheral manufacturers, and one that doesn't work so well any more. The video card people, the sound card people, the printer people, the scanner people -- they've all played that game in the past. Those were the bad-old-days, though, when every program came with a half dozen driver disks just to support your printer or sound card.

Since then, we've evolved into a standards-based commodity market for peripherals. (And I hate to say it, but MS kicked off this whole trend with Windows 3.1.) Basically every peripheral out there must conform to (more-or-less) open standards, such as TWAIN, DirectX, or the Win32 printing API. And it's considered the responsibility of the manufacturer to supply drivers which provide that conformance.

There are essentially no developers for the HP scanner outside of Hewlett-Packard itself. Similarly, there are practically no developers for the latest SB Live sound card outside of Creative, and with the exception of some game companies out there, there is nobody developing a thing for your latest 3D video card.

The developers working for the manufacturer have to write the driver software, so that all of the other developers in the world can work with their hardware without paying any license fees.

The reason these companies won't give you the specs for their hardware isn't that they're worried you'll actually write an application which uses it -- it's that their corporate culture, with 40+ years in the hardware vending business, tells them "don't give out the specs, it makes it easier for our competitors to duplicate it, or even extend it".

I agree with you, BTW, that this IP really isn't worth as much as they think it is. They would have a happier, and more loyal customer base if they were to give out the specs, so that we know we can always write our own drivers, even 20 years from now. They are screwing us over, by locking us in to their drivers, which they have no obligation to support on past, future, or alternate operating systems.

Real world trolling

[AdamInParadise]

It says it all:
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/35 89/1/

Re:Real world trolling

[Smedrick]

Love the article. An excellent companion to CmdrTaco's editorial. I'm pretty new to the Linux scene. I'm definitely not what you'd call hardcore, but I can hold my own. What really surprises me is that Linux users actually trash other versions of Linux. "Red Hat's just the big commercial sellout" That sounds like one of those spiky-haired little freaks telling you your favorite punk band is "lame because they sold-out." It's only cool if it's underground because no one knows about it and we can mock them for it. That's completely ridiculous. I thought Red Hat is an excellent start for a newbie. It lets you test the waters before jumping into the deep-end of more complicated installations, like Debian.

I think what people have to realize is that Linux just isn't for everyone. Even though I have two different flavors of Linux on my machine right now, I still tend to gravitate towards Windows. It's not a bad OS, it's definitely not evil (most of the time, at least). The majority of the time I like to browse the Web while I'm working (I have a very short attention span). And, IMHO, IE is the better browser. I've also become accustomed to all the fancy extras in the Windows version of AIM. So, while I love doing coding and whatnot in Linux, I usually choose Windows because it fulfills my needs.

Not everyone concerned about customizing every aspect of their OS or how long they can keep their computer running before it implodes. Linux users have to understand this. Church's don't recruit parishioners by laughing in their faces ("Haha! My l33t god r0x0rs your deity's ass!") or forcing them to convert. They get the most numbers when they just introduce their doctrines and answer questions. I was almost scared away from the Linux scene, too. I don't like elitist loud mouths. You can have your underground. Luckily I'm a very stubborn person and I'm determined to master Linux...with your help or without.

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This isnt' new...

[kypper]

it's been used by users of ALL operating systems. I recall windows NT boosters putting down 95. I recall FreeBSD users putting down Linux and vice versa. There's infighting, complaining, etc etc. Welcome to the real world; people feel that you owe them.

Linux doesn't support my internal alcatel NIC. Do I scream at alcatel for it? No. They are under no obligation to write the drivers, especially when it's costing them money to do so. Benefits aren't necessarily going to come out of them, so... why bother?

Corporations are under no obligation. Do your homework before you get a product. It's that simple.

If you fsck up, well... use windows. it won't kill you.

Screw 3...