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Why Linux Won't Ever Be Mainstream
So I collect anime cels. I have a fairly nice collection now. Cels from Tenchi, Trigun, Ranma 1/2 among others. It's a fun hobby that I find gets me a little more involved with some of my favorite shows to have a little piece of them. Sometimes it can be horribly expensive, but often really nice cels for just a few bucks can be found.
But what do you do with these cels? Well, I framed several. Museum-quality glass ensures that they'll stick around for awhile. But I have dozens of cels, and I travel a lot ... so scanning them in and making nice wallpaper images for my desktop sure will make KDE look nice. So with that in mind I began hopping around looking for an inexpensive flatbed scanner. And I thought I had found it in the HP 3300C. At only $80, it seemed like a great deal: I didn't need 2400x2400 scans or anything, I just wanted to get 1280x1024 images off 8.5x11 cels. A quick glance through /etc/usbmgr/usbmgr.conf revealed a line for it, so I figured I was all set. OK, that was a major mistake on my part -- I should have looked a little harder, I just made the ill-fated assumption that a line in this file meant someone had made the 3300C work under Linux.
I was wrong. I've set up USB devices before. I've set up scanners before. And this one bugger wasn't about to work. So I figured I'd hop over to google and search around and see if I was missing something. After browsing around a few sites that provided me with no information whatsoever, I stumbled upon Linux-USB. Duh, the source, right? Probably should have looked there in the first place, but hey, I never claimed to be a genius. My heart sunk when I found the supported scanners list and found my cheapy HP 3300C, conveniently listed with an icon so obvious that even a moron could clearly see that his quest to scan in cels was going to be fruitless: The Red X of failure.
The site helpfully provides a little more info link with a discussion board that I figured I would read to see if perhaps work was underway. And this is where I made a shocking discovery. And if I was HP, I sure wouldn't be taking the abuse that so many people are dishing out. The discussion starts off fine. An email address to someone at HP to ask for specs. A comment about how HP should make their specs available since they are supposedly an Open Source company (even having gone so far as hiring Bruce Perens to do ... something. Well nobody is really sure what, but he does something for Linux at HP ;). The next comment was a user who returned his scanner. Another user glad that he found this page before he bought the scanner. Lucky bastard. I wish I had.
But this is where things turned sour. The messages turn from disappointed to just plain mean. HP employees are called bastards and assholes. Threats are made. They are referred to as lots of words that I would happily use in friendly conversation with a friend, but never post in a public forum read by strangers.
And thats where all of this is leading. Intermixed with this embarassing dialogue is legitimite stuff. One guy wants to write a driver. Others provide links to various support channels at HP where perhaps a request for the scanner specs might not come up empty.
But somehow I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth. I see it on Slashdot all the time, and I find it really disheartening. Its an attitude that many people have: The "You Owe Me" attitude. Certainly I'm not exempt from this attitude. If I pay for a device, dammit I want specs. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to call a company with thousands of employees "cockmasters" just because they don't want to support my operating system.
I've met a lot of people who've written a lot of open source code. Window Managers. Ethernet Drivers. X extensions. GUI Toolkits. And these people are almost always totally cool. Sure they have attitudes. They are pompous. They are proud of their work. And in most cases they deserve many more accolades then they get. But I think most of them wouldn't say something like "HP seems to be still smeeling Gates' asshole rather than coming out of it. Beware Hp, Linux is going strong and unless you recognize that and properly support your hardware under Linux, you are going to Piss in your pants one day." I'm embarassed to run the same OS as 'Casablanca' who provided Linux-USB with that choice quote. No doubt that Linux is going strong. But what does that have to do with the offensive statement that leads off? How does saying that advance anything?
This is at its worst in public forums. Mailing lists are often much more civil. I'm not saying always because every mailing list with more then a few people explodes into flames every now and then. But at least then you're talking about a private forum. There's just something about a public web board that brings the worst out in some people. Its unfortunate that because you don't sign your name, some people interpret that as a license to be a jerk.
I'm not saying drop the attitude. Linux is a superior operating system to the one that HP usually supports. But that attitude is a double edged sword. If welded childishly, it will hurt us all. I don't care if 'Casablanca' chops off his own leg, but damn it sucks that his attitude might hurt the dozens of other posters on that forum who all paid cash money for their HP 3300C scanner and may never see it supported.
The reality is that HP sells scanners and printers almost entirely to users of that "Other" OS. Writing a driver probably won't make them much money: especially not for a scanner that is going for less then a hundred bucks. Of course, releasing their specs costs them next to nothing, and for a company that has been working hard to embrace Open Source and Linux, it certainly is something cool that they could do.
In conclusion, I had to boot up windows to use my scanner. The Diablo 2 Expansion is the only other software on the partition. I scanned in a half dozens cels, rebooted, and did the rest of my work in The GIMP. It took me much much longer to get things done then I would have liked and it definitely detracts from the usability of the scanner. The scans were fine, but the overhead it required forces me not to recommend the scanner to anyone. But if HP would release the specs to this thing, I know there would be a lot of happy people besides me. HP makes quality hardware and the price is definitely right on this one.
If they don't, I have a hard time blaming them. I know that the bitchers and moaners that are so loud in random forums throughout the net (and yes, even here on Slashdot. Maybe especially here) are actually a minority. The vast majority of Linux Developers and Users are sane and calm. Sure, we have that inner glow of satisfaction that comes from knowing we have uptimes of 200+ days and we only reboot to try out newer devel kernels. But we don't feel the need to call people names because we don't get our way. I admit that I've stepped over the line more times then I should, but I try to be cool about it. And I hope others do to.
Soapbox mode: off.
I wish that whenever I have a bad day that I can write it all down so millions of user can write comments to make me feel better!
Honestly, Linux isn't the choice because the users are still dumb. Think about it. Most users are babyboomers that have trouble finding the on switch. Once the newer generation get into the game, they'll make the decision, but switching desktops from an extremely popular desktop to a stable one is tough to do and will take tons of time (unless there is some type of revolution when M$ takes one too big of a step to claim world domination).
So relax, Taco, and give it time. Patience is a virtue. Everyone has a bad day. Its no reason to get frustrated and quit. Geez....
CmdrTaco - I think you've missed the point. Users of all operating systems behave like this. Microsoft tech support must have to put up with alot of flack from users, as would Apple's. BSD & Amiga users are infamous for their demeanour too.
This won't stop Linux from becoming mainstream - simply because it is normal, and reflects society at large, not just users of Linux.
Another program managed resources on high-end LaserJet hard drives. It's possible to write a comparable program in Perl or Python or Java or Ruby -- all it takes is a TCP connection to port 9100 on the printer and a few commands to update, delete, and query stored information. This program was a big part of the marketing literature. It plain didn't work.
HP has some very smart people, but they've sold off big parts of the company in recent years. There are definitely people there who "get it", but there are also managers who claim (direct quote):
Blame the users who are quick to flame, they deserve it. But HP as a company has a lot of problems of its own. If they pressured the company that actually made the scanner, there might be Linux drivers for it. As it is, there's probably no one at HP that even has a contact at the other company.
Umm, actually you are wrong (and I had Amiga 1000, and Amiga 500)
... Commodore themselves, they never listened to their customers, always were arrogant (I know, I talked to them few times)
The people who killed Amiga was
Commodore should be a classic example how NOT to treat a customer.
Hetz (Heunique)
The problem with Linux (and BSD's on this case) is simple - and I see it all the times..
People wants everything to be free AND open source.
Thats a legit request - on some occasions, but try to tell that to a commercial vendor when he's trying to make living and once their competitors will see his code will simply copy the features (who can tell that the code is the same if they sell it under closed source license?) and will sell it under half the price (heh, no R&D investment is needed)..
We heard all before from people like RMS, ESR and others that the way to make money is by support. Go ahead - Call MS and see why they refuse to support the user directly - it's NOT PROFITABLE. Ask 100 more companies - the amount of money to make is very small - so they don't write applications that are needed for Linux/BSD. It's that simple..
As for hardware vendors - some of them simply cannot release the specs because they are licensed from 3rd party (example: nVidia - licensed some parts from SGI and from others), and part of this agreement is not to release specs to the public. nVidia in this case ARE releasing some parts of their specs for the 2D/Video parts of their card to the XFree team under a very strict agreement..
If you really want your hardware to be supported, then you have 3 choices:
1. Arrange a petition to give to the hardware OEM, so they can see there is a demand.
2. Start debugging the driver or reverse engineering the windows drivers (on coutries that it is legal) and create a driver. If I'm not mistaken - that was the way the Linux ZIP driver was created..
3. If the hardware is cheap, then post a request on the specific mailing list, and ask for someone (who did some work already - not someone that came out of the blue) to do the driver and if he agrees, buy him the hardware and ship it. You'll be amazed how much this helps..
Bitching/Flaming/Coursing on forums simply doesn't help - and trust me, I'm following dozens of forums and mailing lists. Want example? go read the HP OpenMail forums.
Hetz (Heunique)
WinXP will never be mainstream because it doesn't support my HP ScanJet Plus. Riiiiiight.
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A lot of people have been "raised" on DOS and Windows 9x. Why would they ever want to change to Linux? They're used to 9x, and whether or not they really like it is another matter entirely.
Linux will remain a niche OS because, for most people, there's really no reason to use it.
- A.P.
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"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Older, used SCSI scanners work great. Unlike many other computer parts, scanners really topped out the requirements of the average consumer 4 years ago. You can buy a SCSI scanner and card from Ebay or Half.com and, after shipping and all, still be out less than $80. Check out the hardware compatability before you buy, and you'll be in scanning bliss soon enough. SANE and XSANE are for me infinitely more useful than the crappy TWAIN drivers you are forced to use in Windows.
Interesting story about "turning the other cheek" as is mentioned in the Western bible's New Testament. Supposedly Romans would only slap with one hand, let's say the right one. Also, they would only use the back (again, whatever) of this hand. Once slapped, if you turned your head and offered your other cheek, they couldn't easily slap it without using the palm of their right hand or the back of their left hand. In this possibly historical sense, turning the other cheek was an act of defiance and control, not of submission.
However, this really isn't relevant for the modern usage of the expression. =-)
-Paul Komarek
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
hawk
If I bought your product, YOU DO INFACT OWE ME. This is NOT an unreasonable expectation. This expecation actually has basis in the law. Most Sheeple tend to simply forget about this.
While a sense of entitlement might make civil interaction less likely, denying a sense of entitlement will also encourage corporations to grow more and more disrespectful of their customers.
The specs for a $100 scanner simply aren't worth anything. There are no great secrets involved that can't be replicated by a couple of Electrical Engineering undergrads in their spare time.
These corps need to get over themselves.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Just b/c someone told you to RTFM does not mean you should whine all over the place about it. Honestly, getting the mouse to work in X is covered in just about every document there is on the Internet. If you are too lazy to look first before you ask, then they are too lazy to help you
Yup...sad thing is, the above it the exact elitism that drives people away. You saw just X mouse setup is covered real well.
Assuming I'm a home user that just got Linux and was trying it out. I went to yahoo and searched on "linux x windows mouse". According to your "solution is everywhere" one of the the returned documents should have answered it. Try it and see what you get back.
Japanese scalable fonts? Motif Programming? Aqua? A vague question about someone not getting their mouse to work? and of course X windows vs Win9x/NT.
So, which of these FM's should I have read that covered it?
Look at documentation for some config files. A lot of programs tend to define the language structure that makes up their files:
object = ( atoms )
atom = ( ( neutron && protron ) || nucleus )
neutron = keyword1 || keyword2
and think they have fully documented everything. yes...technically they have, and for someone who deals with that kinda stuff, it probably helps them out. But all it is doing is creating more of an elitist state, where you practically need a CS degree just to RTFM, which is NEVER going to get Linux into the desktops, at least not for the average user that everyone thinks will have no problem running linux.
If you're so easily discouraged that you can't be bothered to spend 10 seconds refining a search, maybe you shouldn't be installing & configuring an operating system.
More of the same elitist attitude. If you're too stupid to figure it out yourself, then fuck off and go back to windows?
Yes, I could have found it pretty easy, however, the point I was trying to make is that all these people that are being told that it's easy to find this and that have a great frame of reference for finding things - yes it is easy for them, but maybe not for the person at the other end of the line. http://www.linux-howto.com would always be a great and fast answer instead.
let me see-- it is the single most common OS on web servers when counting per site according to Netcraft (Windows is more common when counting by server). It has made tremendous inroads into that industry.
Netcraft numbers mean nothing. Think of how many people are running a web server on their machine and don't even know it because they clicked the "web server" checkbox during their RedHat install. I have four web sites at home (two boxen) that are on Linux machine. That's simply ridiculous. If you wanted to prove your point about mainstream linux acceptance, check out the number of web servers running Linux found at Fortune 500 companies. That would be mainstream acceptance (oh yeah, there aren't that many).
Note that I have been using Linux for over two years and have seen immense improvement in the end user experience (RH5.1 is the oldest distro I have worked with, RH7.1 and SuSE 7.1 are the most recent but I have also worked with versions of Slackware and Debian). PnP and USB support are both becoming more powerful and user friendly in the system level (not only talking the kernel here).
Great, and while Linux is working on those wonderful features, Microsoft and Apple have already developed operating systems that support those and more, and do it better and more intuitively for the user. While Linux has been improving, what do you think other companies have been doing? Just sitting around on their hands? Microsoft's developing a whole new way to think about operating systems and software, which Linux is starting to copy. Apple refined the UI experience to a ridiculous level, which Linux promptly tried to copy (failing somewhat because they don't have the underlying technology.
Microsoft's current model of selling large ammounts of proprietary software is not sustainable, and Microsoft top execs know it. This is why they need to move to a subscription model. And it is why open source software like Linux will become mainstream in the end user market (it has been common in the server market for some time).
And somehow selling large amounts of free software is? Eventually, people are going to realize that to have a business and earn money and feed the kiddies at home, you're going to have to sell something, be it software or support. Software is a hell of a lot easier to sell because people need it for things to work. People don't need support. In fact, many large companies have their own internal support structure so they don't have to pay other companies for it.
Linux is a mainstream word, not a mainstream operating system. You can wax poetic about the "improvements" that Linux has made, but in the end, the mainstream user (be it individual or corporate) still finds better options in Microsoft and Apple.
I'm afraid Linux is stuck in server space.
I'm mostly leaving Linux alone these days in favor of my mac running os x. I can have my unix & use it too.
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I don't think it's as much a "you owe me" attitude as an "it's my right, dammit" attitude.
I don't know if this is a peculiarly American disease, but I've been seeing it for a while now; it almost seems to be a peculiar backlash against "political correctness." Anytime anyone says anything that could be remotely construed as "PC," pseudo-libertarians crawl out of the woodwork screaming that it's their constitutional, God-given right to say what they want, where they want, to whoever they want, and fuck anyone who says otherwise.
I'm not a fan of PCisms, but I've come to believe that the problem of people being oversensitive--while real--is not as debilitating to our society as the problem of people taking pride in their insensitivity. Yeah, you're right--you do have a right to say whatever you want to whoever you want. But just because you can doesn't mean that you should.
Crazy idea--maybe What America Needs <tm>, from an individual level on up to an international policy level, is a better grasp of common courtesy.
> The founding fathers were deeply religious, and
...back to work. (this comment brought to you by a summer US History I course ;)
> intended this as a Christian nation.
Um, incorrect. Whilst some of the authors of the Constitution were indeed Christian, there were also atheists and a large number of deists.
> Certainly they never intended this to be an
> atheistic or nontheistic nation.
No, but they did intend it to be a nation where you could be an atheist. Or a deist. Or whatever. They intended it to be a nation where no one was forced into any religion, and where church and state were separated. This partially came from their own beliefs (and the diversity therin), and partially from seeing the corruption that rose from the Church of England. Religion and government are both immensely powerful institutions, and are prone to corruption. Adding them together is like adding an oily rag to a bottle of gas, and thus we have a Molotov cocktail...and people get burned.
I too weap for our future
:) But anyway...
I weep for our educational system.
What I don't understand in all this talk about people being assholes on message boards and all this other stuff is why we should care? I agree with the assertion that it's probably not just linux users who are being assholes on public forums, but even if it were, who cares?
I would like to think that people use an operating system because it fits their needs. Linus may be out for world domination, and others as well, but frankly I don't care to spend a lot of energy debating and worrying over whether or not the linux community is taking the strategy that maximizes chances for the widest popularity.
Getting drivers for new hardware is one thing, but why is it that all of the rhetoric here and elsewhere seems focused on making linux popular? It would be nice, but I'd rather cut the PR shit and keep writing software. I want people to come and use linux because we're better than the alternative, not because we're nice on message boards, or companies feel warm and fluffy around us, or because our PR department is better at lying to the customer than the competition is.
And even if no one else uses linux, it's still going to move forward. The types of users people are trying to attract aren't even really coders. They're not going to help the progression of the OS any except by making companies take notice, who often contribute non-free software.
Linux is linux, and it's going to be linux. Nobody has to pimp it out in order for it to be what it is.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
1) The newbie who understands that he has to learn something (although he may not know how much) about what he is trying to use. He's willing to put forth some reasonable amount of effort, and if he throws his hands up in disgust, it's usually a sign that the thing in question is poorly designed.
2) The luser who insists on use without learning or thinking, who wants the computer (or whatever) to be a magic psychic box that just makes things happen.
I will help a person in the first group as far as they're willing to go (within the limits of what I know... I know at least one guy that started from zero, I helped him get started and now he's hacking away on X doing things I just manage to comprehend). The second group I have no time for. You can talk and explain till you're blue in the face and it will do you (and them) zero good.
The trouble comes with people who treat both groups as equivalent. They remind me of college professors who say "There's the reading for the course, test is on May 2, see you in four months." Excuse me? What the hell are you doing in charge of a class if you're not going to teach? If all you want is to do research, fine, but don't then try to claim you're a "teacher" too.
-- Old Man Kensey
Was it perfect? No.
Was it the best tool for certain jobs? Absolutely. In fact it turned out to be "pretty good, and easier too" for just about everything computer novices needed, and there was something there for a lot of power users too (particularly multimedia). Look at HyperCard. Look at ClarisWorks. Hell, look at MacWrite and MacPaint in the context of their times.
Apple put a lot of thought and research into designing MacOS (which was still just The System back then). Much of it has been imitated or outright ripped off. After using Macs for over 10 years, Windows and *nix for 7, I'd say the following:
Every place MacOS fails is because Apple either decided "you must do it this way, no matter what you think you want, because it's better" (example: lack of keyboard shortcuts in menus) or because they were imitating, not innovating (replacing SCSI components with IDE, IMHO, ultimately hurt the Mac).
What we need is for somebody to write a whole new OS around the Linux kernel. The first goal of this OS should be "the command line is always useful, but never necessary." The second goal should be "this OS does not try to outthink the user, but think with the user."
Essentially the usual Linux tools would still be there, with a whole new user-interface layer on top of it. Sound familiar? It should.
It's always a fatal mistake to think your company can't learn anything from the competition. The fact that Linux is not a "company" makes it no less true.
-- Old Man Kensey
Are you referring to Fresnel, perhaps? That's pronounced as though spelled freh-nel. The "s" is silent.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
How did you, the hypothetical newbie, know to use a somewhat computer-field specific abbreviation of the word "configuration"?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Should you decide that you need a sig file, allow me to suggest that "Way too many of us need serious therapy. Or better games." would do quite nicely.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The "F" is uppercase because it's some guy's name.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Ahh, yes. The "good-old-days", when RAM was $500/KB, computers were hulking beasts, and nobody owned them. I'm sorry, I don't want to go back to that time. You can if you want -- I'll keep my whizzo hardware, thanks.
They are marketing tacticts used by companies to sell computers. If Suzan Smith wanted to send e-mail and surf the net and all that was available to her was UNIX she would still buy that computer and she wouldn't complain about it being too hard to use because it realy isn't too hard.
A command line can be entirely as easy to use as a GUI! You have fallen for the biggest lie ever created in the computer industry -- "If's it's got windows, a mouse, and buttons, it's easy to use!" This is a fundamental blockage in the brains of the *nix community, and until they clear it out, *nixes will forever be relegated to the nerd ghetto.
It isn't windows and mouses and buttons that make a computer easy to use; it's the careful, reasoned, well-thought-out interface between man and machine, the tasks the man wants the machine to do, and the facilitation of those tasks.
There are a few hard-and-fast rules (Read Tog for more on that), but mostly it's about designing for people, not machines. A fundamental example: the computer's filesystem is built heirarchal, and that works for a computer. It thinks that way. Humans (by which I mean non-programmers) don't think that way. They think in amorphous, nebulous, loosely grouped items that apply to projects, tasks, or goals.
We've built the computer to act like a file cabinet, forgetting that a file cabinet is a poor solution to a problem, not the best that could be done with the available technology. Rather than make the computer a *better* file cabinet, we've slavishly copied it, and as a result, we have computers that are hard to use on the most basic level: the file manager.
The more "easy" you make computers to the more ignorant the users will be and the more "harder" using a computer will seem. Because the more about a computer you hide the more complex a computer seems to it's user.
That is patently ridiculous. All complicated devices become simpler over time -- we don't become dumber, we become more productive with fewer resources and do things faster than before. You see the computer as an end in itself, whereas most people see it as a time-saving device (a better, faster typewriter, basically) and think no further than that. I don't accuse you, neccessarily, it's natural for a computer professional to dispair over the sad state of the users. It's probably a similar feeling your mechanic might have if you are one of those people who go 4-5K miles between oil changes -- "What's wrong with him? Doesn't he know he's KILLING his car?!?"
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
ahhh yes. The infamous "RTFM"...
.02
If you are going to start using Linux (especially "a few years ago") you need to learn to read. Every OS should require people to read, it creates a larger userbase of knowing people... Not the point.
Just b/c someone told you to RTFM does not mean you should whine all over the place about it. Honestly, getting the mouse to work in X is covered in just about every document there is on the Internet. If you are too lazy to look first before you ask, then they are too lazy to help you.
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As far as HP is concerned. As much as I disapprove of their lack of Linux support I like their products. I have been using the same HP Deskjet 400C for 4 years. It hasn't given me very many problems and even prints fast enough to make me happy.
I don't see any companies really being all that helpful w/USB devices in Linux (Intel's USB cameras for example) yet there are plenty of people out there using USB snoop (or whatever it is) to find out for themselves how to get the device to work.
I refuse to buy USB devices for the simple fact that Linux does not support them. Do not complain about Company X when they won't pass out your device's specs, and definitly don't flame them.
I really think that this post was only to flame HP "nicely".
Linux won't ever become a mainstream OS b/c it missed its oppertunity by several years. It isn't b/c of the users, the developers, or the companies.
Just my worthless
sorry, but that is correct. When I go anywhere I make sure to have fully researched (usually w/the Internet, sometimes w/maps) where I am going and what's going on. If you don't tough shit.
As far as you punching me. That's about as useless as me telling you to go look it up in the atlas.
Actually, they were deeply religious. They were Theists: they believed in a supreme being, but *NOT* in personal salvation nor that Christ was God's son.
Shouldn't take you very long at all to hit Google and learn that Theists are not Christian, and that most of the founders were Theists.
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So I'm forced to wonder whether Tokyo is crawling with assholes.
Somehow, I doubt it. Politeness, respect, and courtesy are fundamental social laws in Japan.
Not so in America, and what's left of consideration for others seems to be rapidly dwindling.
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"Turn the other cheek" isn't going to change a thing. All that will happen is that they'll *continue* to act abusively towards everyone else around them.
I'm perfectly aware that busting heads isn't a wimpy nice-guy attitude. Tough shit. Dictatorships aren't overthrown by wishing them away, either.
If we want this society to change, then *we* have to take action to change it.
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"True story: A friend of mine and I were sitting at a red light in DC when a car full of gangstas pulled up beside us. We happened to be listening to NWA's "Fuck Tha Police". For some reason, these gangstas were offended that two white boys were listening to rap, and one of them pulled a gun and held it up to the window."
Or perhaps they were tired of hearing assholes with their crappy rap music cranked so loud that it can be heard in the next county.
They were probably trying to teach you some manners. Shame they didn't shoot your stereo.
Your one of the *causes* of the "fuck you" society we're living in, buddy. Turn down the stereo already.
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So fink her out.
If you don't, she is going to be rewarded for dishonest behaviour.
That's just going to take us one more step toward the sort of society we don't want.
Do yourself, do her, and do all of us a favour: make sure she pays the price for cheating and lying.
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All that you say would be perfectly fine and true if we were grizzly bears.
Griz are out for number one, because they live alone. They're not social animals.
The most important thing people in this society *must* come to understand is that the good of the whole is *more important* than the good of oneself.
If we don't start behaving in a manner that benefits society, then this society is destined to collapse. It has happened in the past, and it *will* happen again.
Now of course, someone is going to go on some riff about the evils of socialism or communism or some other dippy understanding of what I've said. Just please note that I didn't say anything at all about what the political structure would look like.
What I will say is that "good for society" *can* align with "good for oneself." The two are not mutually exclusive.
Let me Venn diagram it: two circles, overlapping. One circle is "good for society." The other is "good for oneself." What we want is to maximize the area of overlap, and position ourselves in it.
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'But somehow I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth. I see it on Slashdot all the time, and I find it really disheartening. Its an attitude that many people have: The "You Owe Me" attitude.'
It's part of the 'going to hell in a handbasket' problem we've got going in this society.
The root cause seems to boil down to one thing: a lot of people these days are out for #1, and don't give a fuck for the consequences that affect others.
Maybe it's because those of us that try to play nice are too patient, too forgiving, and too unwilling to get in their faces and *demand* that they play nice. Instead, we let them walk all over us.
Myriad examples: the assholes with their 110dB subwoofer ripping through residential neighbourhoods at 2AM. The pissant little fuck who takes 30 items through the 10 items or less till. People who don't hold doors open when you both arrive at the same time. Dangerous fucking assholes running red lights. Ah, it's aggravating just thinking of all the examples.
Why do these people act like jerks? Because they can.
Perhaps it's because they're so powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Between their boss and the government, they can't fart without permission. So they take out their frustrations by pissing off everyone else. Maybe that's it.
Bottom line, at any rate, is that it's time for the nice guys to put their foot down and demand better from others. Don't like the behaviour you see? Don't be a milquetoast -- stand up and demand better!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Um... makes me wonder... What ever happened to moderated Usenet newsgroups? Are there any left? Ridiculous flamewars and blatently incendiary remarks were not allowed and it kept the SNR high. Most of the ones I remember were in the sci. groups (and similar). Can't remember any in comp.*. (Just thought of a funny thing: moderated newgroups under alt.*.) And, of course, someone had to volunteer to be moderator. Have we hit a shortage of them? (Sorry, but I'm not in a position to be stepping forward :-)
If an online forum really wants to remain useful to the participants, I can't see how you can avoid instituting moderation. It's not censorship to insist that people stay on topic and remain civil. If the immature folks avoid Kuro5hin because they can't make posts that don't use four-letter words in every other sentance and whose sole purpose seem to be to insult someone else, then great. You're not contributing anything useful to the `conversation' anyway and should go elsewhere. We'd do the same thing at a restaurant, bar, or other social gathering: ``Hey, buster! Any more of that or you're outta here!'' Maybe it doesn't work that well in a web-oriented discussion (where someone's got bills to pay and needs all the clicks they can get) but I don't think an online bouncer is such a bad idea.
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CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
It does not take a pollster to tell you that users of a "free as in beer" operating system are on the whole not interested in buying new hardware every few years. We may be cheap, but we have incredibly high standards as well. These don't tend to mix well.
... my old K6/233 machine is now my firewall (gotta love OpenBSD and GNU/Linux for that).
.NET architecture, and XP product registration-key requirements once they are told about it. Nor is GNU/Linux (or *BSD if you prefer) beyond the average person's ability to grasp, if they are given time, encouragement, and friendly help along the way.
... no evangelizing required. Once again price isn't the issue -- they already own the requisite licenses. Freedom, reliability, and quality are the issue, and Free Software wins on all those counts hands-down, a few antisocial punks and Taco's rant notwithstanding.
I use GNU/Linux because of its features, stability, speed, and, most importantly, the freedom it imparts on me to do my personal and work-related projects in the manner I choose, rather than that to which my vendor constrains me. I do not use it for price (although free as in beer is a nice frosting on the freedom-in-general cake).
I am also not cheap when it comes to hardware (and I suspect most of us who work in IT as a living are not, just as most of us who are still in school and living on a college budget are). I have a renderfarm of two dual 733 MHz GNU/Linux boxes at home for my blender projects, along with a dual 1 GHz GNU/Linux box as my primary workstation for video capture, editing, and as a third ad-hoc node on the renderfarm when it isn't busy doing something else. All with very nice video, huge amounts of memory, obscene amounts of disk space, etc. I do recycle old equipment
I am preparing to purchase a good color printer to replace the epson which has since died and refused to respond to treatment (nozzle declogging, etc.). The printer will likely be an HP, although that is not yet certain.
What is certain is that every piece of hardware, from the standalone Sony analog->firewire converter to the Hauppauge capture board to the nVidia video card to the Intel NetportExpress printserver absolutely must work with GNU/Linux, either via vendor support or third party, volunteer efforts. Otherwise I do not purchase the hardware, period.
I do not own a copy of Windows (I build my own machines, thereby saving money, getting better components, and avoiding the payment of the Microsoft OEM tax), nor do I plan to ever own a copy of windows. Nor does my mother, my sister, my cousin, or any number of other people I have built and installed computers for.
They all run GNU/Linux, and any hardware purchases they make have as a necessary and uncompromising requirement that it work with their system, and not require them to go out and buy software they neither want nor need.
In all these cases it is usability, reliability, and freedom which resulted in the choice of software and hardware used, not price. Indeed, price was only a factor in one of the installations (which, being free, naturally contributed to reaching the same decision).
Users aren't stupid, nor are they blind and uncomprehending of the implications of Microsoft's new licensing policies,
The problem is that mainstream media hasn't made that reality abundently clear to everyone yet, so many are as yet unaware of the truly draconian conditions Microsoft is placing on the use of their software, nor are they aware of the relatively modest amount of effort required to learn how to use a new operating system.
This is slowly changing though, despite Microsoft's best anti-Free Software FUD efforts. I know several other non-techie types who want me to install GNU/Linux for them, if ever I get the time. They have come to me
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Do the math. More than 50% are below average.
pooptruck
It was just when MS put out Windows and AOL came around that this new breed of computer users came about. It was then that the term "computer illiterate" was coined.
The personal computer market is about 100x larger than it was in the 1980s. You absolutely couldn't use a computer in those days unless you were willing to invest some of your own time into the process. Unlike today, if you were "illiterate" you didn't use a computer - Simple as that.
Put it this way: We all could still be using $5000 machines with stagnent hardware and obscure user interfaces from a tiny purchasing base, or we could open up the industry to everyone thus getting us $1000 machines that run at 1Ghz. Which would you rather have? Don't forget that lots of smart people also gained access to personal computing along with the AOLers and typical Windows droolers.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
No it's not. but the scary part is that Linux users are generally frm the top 1/3 of the IQ pool. you'd think that something simple as a civil, quiet letter or email to the company that refuses to acknowlege Linux that you bought a competetiors product because theirs didn't work under linux. this letter if sent by only 1/5 of the people that have looked at that scanner and use linux would have gotten some serious attention at the company. (100 letters stating that will get serious attention for sure!)
But alas, we as a group are the laziest bunch on the planet. we bitch and moan and whine.....
Linux could do well by emulating Mac users. Fanatical devotion to the cause and happily write letters (paper letters) and emails to supprot the cause.. and they rarely bitch (well except in the case of the shoddy quality of Microsoft products.. There's a kind-of universal hatred there by all)
Nope, what's holding linux back is it's users. Every one of you. Linux isn't mainstream? Your Fault.
Linux isn't being adopted fast enough? YOUR FAULT!
Linux isn't being taken seriously? IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!
get it through your heads fellow users. I know I am in the minority by being one that writes paper letters to companies telling them that I bought X instead of theirs because it doesn't work under linux... I show them revenue lost... but they don't care because only one nut is writing them..
I rarely point fingers that I cant point back at myself... but this is one....
you a linux user? then it's YOUR FAULT that linux hasn't dominated the world by now. Want to change that? then start writing paper letters to companies, people in power, and friends.
When was the last time you convinced a windows friend to use linux and made the effort to hand hold them through the first month? Ahhh, though so.
Go ahead and mark me as troll/flamebait whatever.. but honestly look at what you have done for "the cause"... can you expend just a tiny bit more energy and do more?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
RTFM is important no matter what operating system you're using, but in the case of Linux TFM, when it exists enough in one place to be called a manual at all, is often poorly written, out of date, and so on that even if you read it and understand it it doesn't help.
I think that RTFM often really means "spend 200 hours fucking with it, you'll figure it out" or "My status is enhanced by not telling you how to do it" or "I've helped people before, but 4/5ths of the people I've helped before are just not sophisticated enough to grasp the details of actually running Linux and I'm out of patience".
I think the latter comment about end-user sophistication is probably true. Newer distros are often simple to use on common hardware, but getting limited-support devices to work or something other than dedicated-ethernet-IP networking is *not* a trivial accomplishment for a lot of people. Most people who don't do computers/networking for a living are trying to accomplish some other goal: web browsing, online gaming, shopping, email, graphics, and all the things that these tasks accomplish. They're not looking to gain a sideline CompSci degree.
So when someone gets slammed for not RTFM, deservedly or not, they give on Linux. Maybe they should, but its certainly not always their fault.
HP has gained more than one disgruntled ex-customer. I no longer recommend them with pleasure, but only when there really is no reasonable alternative. There are worse companies. HP does generally make good hardware. But I have disliked them for over two years now, and it's been getting stronger.
Yes, the companies may decline to support us. But we should decline to support those companies, also.
Caution: Now approaching the (technological) singularity.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Nice one. Axioms aren't long lived if they aren't useful, insightful or both.
/. I'm a preview button junkie. I hate making a stupid error obvious to the world.
"Measure twice, cut once" sure seems to fit the bill here, except in your case it's "Edit twice, send once."
Myself, on
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
They are under no obligation to write the drivers, especially when it's costing them money to do so.
/mnt/cam vfat noauto,user 0 0)
They might be motivated to, if it's costing them sales.
When you buy a piece of hardware, you are paying for the hardware and the *drivers* to run it.
With Linux, you're often at the mercy of independant developers to write these drivers, but some companies make it easier for them by following standards, releasing specs, or actually doing the development in-house.
I don't know if it is common in the US, but here in Japan, hardware is often sold with a little Tux sticker on it to let you know that it is Linux-friendly. Companies that do this are more likely to get *my* business, since I often buy on impulse and don't check ahead of time to read a compatability list.
I bet if you asked most scanner manufacturers about Linux, they'd say "This scanner is USB - USB doesn't work with Linux, does it?"
I can use peripherals with Linux now that I could not have hoped to a year ago. My digital camera shows up as a mountable drive icon on my desktop now and this alone makes Linux a *lot* more viable to me.
(/etc/fstab entry:
/dev/sda1
If being able to put a "Works With Linux!" sticker on the box increases sales by 5%, companies will start doing it.
When they do, give these manufacturers higher consideration and some feedback.
Cheers,
Jim in Tokyo
MMDC Mobile Media
-- My Weblog.
Don't forget the Amiga - it's user base actually killed the Amiga off...
Other than that - I really hear you...
Thank you for proving my point. :-)
Balderdash! This is attaching your personal economic motivations upon another. You might feel you are a better person because you use one product over another, but that has absolutely no bearing on anyone else.
A) Download Linux for free. You benefit.
B) Purchase Windows. You and Bill Gates both benefit.
Option B has a greater positive economic benefit. Unless you're contributing back code to someone else's project, option A doesn't benefit anyone but you.
I do not chose option B because Windows is a shoddy product. But I certainly don't consider myself a better person for it. That's stupid!
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I do believe someone who does things to support the good of all is a better person than one who does not.
I agree. But someone who downloads Linux for free and never contributes any code, documentation, money, or anything else back, supports no one else but themselves.
Merely using Linux does not make you a better person from any angle that I look at.
Which in the end makes your post hypocritical...
Reread my post. I attributed no moral relativity to anything (which I why I used the neutral yardstick of utilitarianism). I did, however, attribute the adjective of "stupid" to the idea that using Linux makes people morally superior.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
But I am *not* purchasing Linux! I am downloading it for free with no payments to anyone. My monetary vote in the free market election is "none of the above".
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Joe Average Computer User is getting pretty savvy, actually. These things have been around long enough for folks to have grown up with them. Matter of fact, my mother in law takes exception to the comment "your grandma could do it"... and points out quite rightly that most back offices are RUN by Grandma... not OUR grandmas born in ought-five but Greg Geek's parents, who are now grandmas because Greg is old enough to have finally found a geekette and decided to procreate.
Besides, somebody has come up with a distro aimed at Joe Random Windows User... ironically, it's made in Redmond, and it's called Redmond Linux. (Shamless plug for a business associate of mine.) I haven't had time to take a real good look at it, but given what I know can be done with Linux, it can't be that hard to put together something really User Friendly.
There are two things to learn from this story:
1) Check the availability lists before you buy, duh. When I got a scanner, I checked out the SANE page and went down the list, and cross-referenced that with what was up on ebay. I got a microtek E6 for 60$, and it can do 8.5x13 at 600 dpi with great color, and it has totally native support in the Gimp.
Linux has great support for sound cards, video cards, that sort of thing, but the second you stray into more exotic territory (scanners, digital cameras, etc) you gotta check the pages.
2) _Everyone_ is an asshole on forums, not just linux users. HP is not going to drop linux support because of some stupid web forum. Are windows users any more polite? What about mac users? I just think this is a non-issue. I really doubt that HP is subscribing to the linux-usb list, and if they are they aren't going to say "waahhh, they called us cockmasters... no drivers for j00!" Call them up. Have a friendly chat. You run a website that some people have heard of, this lets you do things. Bruce Perens works there? then get _him_ to talk to them! Take advantage of your connections, don't just be another email.
Why does somebody else need to pray for me? And how is anybody going to stop me from praying whenever and wherever I want to?
Prayer happens between one person and their Maker. What happens in revival tents and God Squad meetings and in pulpits is showmanship. That showmanship has its place, but not in the schools that everybody's kids (not just Christians' kids) go to.
Want your kid to be led in prayer at school? Put them in parochial school. If you don't think it's worth the sacrifice to do so, why are you carping at other people to Make The World Be Like You Want It To Be?
And civil behavior does NOT start at church. If you think it does, you've never taught second-grade Sunday School. Civil behavior comes from parents who DEMAND it, ALL THE TIME.
"We need to know that there is something bigger than us, or else it's all just somebody else's opinion on how we should live."
Think about that statement from the perspective of a non-Christian, and you might start to understand. Keep in mind that they think you are as incorrect as you think they are, and their Holy Book agrees with them. (this statement works for whichever "them" you can think of)
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
Fair enough the little kiddies are annoying and don't do us any favours, but I don't believe it's exclusively a Linux thing. Look at the hoo-haa about Windows 2000/XP drivers for things (notably HP gear) - I think these kiddies are all-pervasive in the computing world. ;)
Kiddies - shut up, let those of us who at least pretend to be mature sort these things out
Chris "Ng" Jones
cmsj@tenshu.net
www.tenshu.net
Indeed, being rebuffed for saying, in effect, "I want to help you sell more units and make more money, FOR FREE", is a bit thick.
It usually comes down to fears of reverse-engineering by competitors. Has anybody ever added up what it would cost to hire engineers to reverse-engineer a knock-off from specifications, vs. doing it from sample hardware, vs. just designing one's own product from scratch? Is it *really* that attractive? Remember, you've got to forward-engineer your product in any case, as well as designing the manufacturing process etc. Basically you save the cost of writing drivers by having your customers use someone else's. How much does that really save, compared to the cost of the reverse-engineering?
He's been trying to get on the good side of the repo men, so he just buys off of the back of their truck.
.conf file?) and it's not like he doesn't have the internet access to investigate further.
Seriously though, you have a great point. It's not like he's new at this (making a purchase based on one odd line in a
It's also not as if there aren't tons of scanners that are a) cheap and b) linux compatible. Okay, so you might have to go to one of those closeout type warehouse places (egghead software used to be one a year or two ago. I'm sure there are others).
This sounds like "I was too stupid to research a purchase, and now the 'leet skript kiddies are keeping HP from writing a driver".
In the end, he found a common solution to a common problem: he booted into Windows. And that merely compounded the problem.
HP hears all of the people ranting about what kind of whore-mongers they are. And CT doesn't send them a letter saying "HP, this seems like a great product. Unfortunately, I had to return it, as it doesn't support my OS. I appreciate your work on the printers. Is there a chance you could expand your open source efforts to a SANE module?"
How tough was that??? Certainly less so than writing this. Instead of HP seeing one rational letter vs. 100 irrational rants, they see only the rants.
Good job, Taco. You have made the problem worse (or, quite possibly, done another journalistic disservice by not giving the entire story. You know, the one where, in the end, you did write a letter to HP. Or at least HP via Bruce Perens. I'm sure you know him better than I.)
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
For Rod's sake, mod this up!
This guy is amazingly responsible. Too often, I have witnessed that the 'ease' of communication on the Internet has born exactly the type of irresponsible communicaes that Taco refers to. Ever notice that the searing email you sent off to someone that pissed you off is quite different than your tone of voice when you speak on the phone to a rep at a company (unless its your phone company!)
I can't speak for you, but for me - this is the case. After all, the person I'm talking to didn't personally ruin my day - they're probably getting paid close to minimum wage to listen to me moan and groan about something. If I want help, I certainly won't be yelling at them over the phone and basically using every expletive that comes to mind!
Take heed! Being 'Open' is an opportunity for greatness - the community can use it to breed a spirit of commonality and shared responsibility! Don't expect Win2K users to feel they have something in common with the next Win2K user. But we can be different - we can show the corporations that are willing to support Linux that we do appreciate their efforts, even when they make mistakes or missteps.
We've already builty the community, guys (and girls). Now we should wield the power of it in a positive way.
Jesus, if I saw you on the street and you gave me an answer like that, I'd punch your lights out.
"Excuse me, sir, where is Third and Hawkins?"
"Well, it's documented on every map of the city that there is. Maybe you should have done the research before you came around here, bothering me and asking me for my help. Why don't you go buy a fucking map?"
*punch*
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Americans as a majority want prayer in their children's lives.
Yes, just like Americans as a majority picked George W. Bush to be our president. Where did you pull this tidbit from? From my limited perspective, most Americans know what a myth is, or at least a tall tale. If they can't put two and two together, well, Christianity is for them.
If anything, allowing our children to pray together would give them opportunity to learn about each other's faiths.
Oh, yeah. Just wait until that little Hindu or Wiccan gets up in front of the class and says a bunch of stuff that scares the class. Or even more likely, look at that Hindu or Wiccan in the corner afraid to say anything since they've just been told by a third of their class (the ones bad at math) that there is only one true religion, and their's isn't it.
Here's a nice happy loving kids sharing religion link.
Without a higher power laying down the rules, it's every man/woman for him/herself, and that's pretty much where we are right now.
Yea, and who is that talks to that higher power? Last I heard some people decided to use that unquestionable authority to kill, maim and conquer, and all with God's loving blessing. What, you questioning the word of God? Die, sinner!!
There are thousands of books written by saints, scholars, and psychologists about morality. Unfortunately you're not going to find any of those in your school library because they pissed off some athiest.
Yes and who can even guess at the number of texts that were burned since they didn't say that the Earth was the center of the Universe or challenged some other "divine inspiration". Let's go visit some parochial school libraries and see what a wide variety of viewpoints they offer.
We need to know that there is something bigger than us,
And we also need to accept that we can't know its will (at least not to the degreee of accuracy that most religions claim). So we're left with what we got, each other and damn nifty place to meet. I think any answers you need (or would be useful) will be found in that bunch.
--
+&x
Similar to the species of computer user who responds to requests for help with something along the lines of "You stupid #$@$! Can't you figure it out!?" is the user who says something along the lines of "XYZ is better than ABC!! You're an XYZ loser!" In other words, I'm talking about Mac zealots.
Up until 1996 I was completely agnostic about Macs. I'd never really used one since they first came out in 1984. I used PC's because that was what was there to use. I had no notions of one platform being superior to the other, just different. But then I had some run-ins with a few Mac culties and my opinions really changed. The first one I came accross I thought was just a lone nutcase, and not indicative of anything. But then I ran into another, and another, and soon came to realize that there were thousands of religious zealots bent on pissing everyone off who wasn't one of them. That was when I really looked at the mac. I figured that if all these people were so passionate about them, then there must be something to what they are saying. I soon determined that all those people had about as much of a clue as the people living at Jonestown did when they drank the cool-aid.
Today I do everything I can to get macs removed from our organization. I know this isn't wholly rational, but it is a direct result of being repeatedly assaulted by loony Mac types. There are plenty of reasons to hold the company and their platform in utter disdain, but its the actions of these so called "advocates" that inspired the deep hatred I sometimes feel.
Do we want that for Linux? Apple has a pitiful market share, and I believe that it is in no small part due to the behavior of zealous Mac users. I've seen plenty of the same behavior from fellow Linux users, and been on the recieving end of it from FreeBSD and Gnome users.
If we want Linux to become more popular, we can't go around attacking those in whom we would like to create an interest in the plantform. Riding around on a high horse and acting superior doesn't do anything but make people think we are jackasses.
Linux is a grassroots development. But to evolve beyond where it has and move out into the mainstream consciousness, it HAS to have GOOD PR. When people do the kinds of things CmdrTaco described, they might as well be getting a paycheck from Microsoft. I guarantee you that seeing a Linux user act in an abusive juvenile fashion is enough to fill Gate's and Ballmer's hearts with sheer joy.
The only way to win is to play nice. Microsoft plays nice. They don't play fair, but then these are not the same things. Microsoft doesn't go out of its way to piss people off. It kisses ass every chance it gets. If we don't learn to do a little of that ourselves as a community, our community is doomed to forever being an exclusive clique.
The thing to remember is that even if you can't help someone with a technical problem, or persuade a company to support a piece of hardware, leaving them with good feelings about you as a person will translate psychologically into good feelings about Linux itself. Every person we make feel good about Linux is a victory. Every person we piss off is a defeat. In both cases the person in question will pass their opinions on to others. So lets be smart and have lots of good PR ok?
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
I realize that's not the perfect analogy since no one will get killed if a clueless idiot uses a computer.
I see somebody has never watched, and therefore learned the lesson of, the movie Wargames.
Computers hooked up to critical systems (such as, oh, for instance nuclear ICBM launch controllers) could be potentially hazardous to ones health if operated by a Clueless Idiot(tm). Not to mention, a Clueless Idiot(tm) opening the back of his monitor and/or power supply to try and "fix" it could, and probably has, resulted in death.
-- iCEBaLM
Linux doesn't support my internal alcatel NIC. Do I scream at alcatel for it? No. They are under no obligation to write the drivers, especially when it's costing them money to do so.
I think you will find what actually annoys people is not if the manufacturer will or won't provided drivers. So much that some of them appear to be putting effort (and spending money) in attemptiong to make it harder for anyone else to write drivers.
It's the specs that people want, and it's frustrating when companies routinely keep denying them from those who could make their hardware more useful to the people who pay it.
WIth the excuse they give being nonsensical. Since a commercial competitor can simply buy the product and reverse engineer it anyway.
The companies do not know what's going on, this open source thing is new to them, and they instinctively keep the specs to themselves to protect their IP, which isn't usually worth that much, and protected by patents anyway.
How can it be new to them? It was problems with a piece of hardware which set RMS off in the first place...
As for the grabbing IP and over valuing it, this sounds very similar to the notorious telephone document involved in the "Hacker Crackdown".
The reason these companies won't give you the specs for their hardware isn't that they're worried you'll actually write an application which uses it -- it's that their corporate culture, with 40+ years in the hardware vending business, tells them "don't give out the specs, it makes it easier for our competitors to duplicate it, or even extend it".
This might make some sort of sense with a mainframe, but with something which someone can easily carry and buy (for cash) its utterly daft.
If your competitors want to do that all they have to do is go and buy some...
Face it, the majority of people don't want to have configure a window manager _and_ something like X just to run a _desktop_ operating system.
So why do they put up with the various versions of Windows which expects the person sitting in front of the machine to carry out system administration tasks.
That is what I like in my desktop OS, but at the same time give me a decent CLI, a real shell and proper tools. Give me documentation, give me configuration files, give me proper logs. Don't hide everything in one big amorphous entity called 'the registry', don't give me useless error messages. Don't treat me as stupid, if I want to issue a command let me, if I want to delete a file or terminate a process let me, I know what I am doing (otherwise I wouldn't be trying).
That's fine so long as we are talking about people's home/hobby machines. Once we get into the work place the last thing you want are regular users being able to tinker with machines.
We don't expect drivers to service the car/van/truck/bus issued with their job, so why on Earth should it be ok to be having secretaties installing software?
This was a misunderstanding of my first sentence where I said "if you don't know how to use the tool, either learn how or don't use it.".
Also using a tool is a different task from maintaining and setting up a tool. They are actually different tasks. No-one expects someone to be a motor mechanic in order to drive (or for that matter you don't even need to be able to drive to maintain cars.)
Problem is we have a commonly used set of software which expects the user to also perform system admin tasks. Also tends to generate error messages which are useless even to a software engineer.
And I completely agree that learning how to drive != learning how to install a new carburator, replacing the engine, lubing the pistons etc.
Installing software is analogous to these kind of tasks. If Windows were a car then it would require no driving licence, have unlabeled controls on the dash to adjust every engine paramater and be impossible to service without being driven at at least 40 Mph.
It may be that your young cousins use Linux but you still installed it for them and I bet you troubleshoot for them and install and configure any new devices that they get.
As they'd have had to do with Windows. Except that with Linux they no longer have to keep reinstalling. (Also they have the useful side effect that it is more difficult for the "young cousins" to mess things up.)
End user administration really isn't a sensible option for anything other than the hobbiest/developer situation. Even in home users in reality a relative or friend is likely to end up acting as system administrator.
Do you know every single bit of what happens in a computer have you disassembled a CPU to see what it looks like and examined every single etching.
Do car mechanics have PhDs in metallurgy, physics and chemistry? However a motor machanic is still preforming a different task and using a different skill set from a driver. You'd never see a motor racing driver pull up in the pits, get out and change their own tyres, would you?
At what level do you regard "using the tool"?
Using a tool is different from making and maintaining a tool
I drive a car. I know I put my key in and it starts. I know I need to change the oil every 3000 miles. And that's about it. I don't care that an alternator recharges my battery. I only care about getting in the car and driving. I have no need to know how the car works.
Would you want a car which was difficult and expensive to service, which expected you the driver adjust the fuel air mix, to rebuild the engine yourself.
If Windows was a car that is the sort of car it would be. With a unix style car all the complex bits would only be accessable with a mechanics key...
Installation, configuration and trouble-shooting aren't "using the tool". That's creating or fixing the tool.
Frequently involving a completly different skill set. Especially where the tool is being used in a commercial enterprise completly different people will do the tasks. (Except for a very small business where multi skilling is an absolute requirement anyway.) A bus company dosn't have bus drivers who are also mechanics, they have drivers, mechanics and spare busses.
They want to use the computers...not spend their time learning how to make it usable. A "tool" is generally something used to accomplish a task more efficiently. If your choice between two things that do basically the same thing is something that you just have to push a button and it works or something that you have to put together first and then push some buttons before it does the same thing...most people are going to choose the one where you just push a button. It's more efficient.
So why issue someone with a tool where the user is expected to maintain it?
Which is just what most people want. As you said, you installed it for them. You took all the learning curve out. They just have to use WindowMaker. For them, this was a "push one button" porcess. If everybody had a cousin handy to set-up their Linux with the apps they want to use, then I'm sure more people would use it. But this isn't the case for most.
Except that this is the most common case. It's the exact situation you find where computers are used in business, education or anywhere outside the "home" situation.
The problem with that is that most people have better things to do with their lives than mess around with OSes.
So why does Windows still exist in the corporate environment? Since by this criteria it's just about the worst operating system possible.
however, you're sysadmining parallel isnt what we're talking about. we're talking about end users using desktop systems running linux.
Except that if you sit someone in front of a Windows box they can (and probably will) end up having to perform sysadmin tasks. Which is an utter disaster waiting to happen in the workplace. Sit them in front of a unix box and not only do they not have to perform any system admin tasks they quite simply can't. They can stick as much removable media in as they like with no chance of altering anything critical.
I think that most of the instability and security problems comes from sloppy-sloppy admin's moreso than MS's software.
I disagree a lot of the problems are due bad design. (Some of which is there for legarcy reasons.)
Unix or for that matter VMS do a far better job of distinguishing between user and administration tasks.
Three months after Win2k was released, they finally came out with modem and sound card drivers, but stated emphatically, including an interstitial message in the download process, that this is unsupported, if it doesn't work, tough, if it causes your marriage to break up, tough.
Funny thing is that just about every piece of software says this anyway. Including the released versions of Windows...
Testing hardware here I've found that there are 5 types of hardware manufacturers
You missed off
0) Companies who's hardware works fine with a standard driver which has been in the kernel for years...
Unix would be the one where you have to control everything. But I guess you've never used UNIX before.
Once you drag your foot out of your mouth maybe you'd like to explain exactly which user tasks need to be performed as root. I'll make it easier you could even pick one from Multics or VMS...
And the mechanics key would be held by root, so unless you have someone else configging your boxes, you're going to need to use that key quite extensively.
This is the usual situation. Even for many home/hobbiest machines. Obviously you've never used a machine you don't own, either at work or in education. (And if you get caught trying to force the locks expect someone to be doing a good impersonation of the BOfH.)
however, you're sysadmining parallel isnt what we're talking about. we're talking about end users using desktop systems running linux.
i agree, i would trust a *NIX admin 100x more than your "average" MSCE guy. *note there are quite a few NT admins that actually know what they're doing and can set up a secure, reliable MS system, but the number of "get yer certification in 3 weeks and earn 80k a year as an MSCE *professional*" greatly outnumber them.
i actually think that this is MS's biggest error - dumbing down the administration so much that most of the people running their systems are dumb. I think that most of the instability and security problems comes from sloppy-sloppy admin's moreso than MS's software.
Linux needs a Newbie learning vector. Users that have a skill set that tops out at "Point and click" need to be able to use the system effectively.
its close... but it aint there yet.
... hi bingo
we've all been guilty of it, and its time for the insane zealotry to go.
yes, MS is the evil empire. Yes, Linux is the "better" OS.
but nobody wants to use something where they are made to feel stupid when they first sit down and use it.
Help and nurture newbies... Not laugh and ridicule. Leave that up to Mr. deRaadt... he's got enough venom for it.
I'd like to see this linux thing take of to the next level. We need to give the newbies and the less-computer "literate" a better hand, instead of the middle finger.
... hi bingo
Why does somebody owe you directions? Why are they obligated to stop what they are doing and take the time to tell you something you could have easily looked up in any map?
War is necrophilia.
Nonetheless nobody owes you their time or effort. This is america remember.
War is necrophilia.
Unfortunately, most feedback mechanisms employed by Fortune 500 companies don't have such mechanisms.
The Net, speaking generally, has no feedback mechanism. It has a really effective blowback mechanism, but that's it.
Feedback is when information--not data--is fed back into the system. If I'm learning how to SCUBA dive, I'll have a dive instructor watch me, critique my technique, and tell me what needs to change. That's feedback. He sees what I'm doing, separates the important from the unimportant, and gives me information back. This changes the behavior of the system for the better, and I become a competent SCUBA diver.
Blowback is when data--not information--is fed back into the system. Data, devoid of meaning. Noise, not signal. If I learn to SCUBA dive by listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn albums, well, I'm going to have a very short dive career.
The Net is a great source of data, but it's a mediocre source of information. Many sites are filled, not with people who want to carefully critique and correct each other's posts to separate out gold from dross, but a bunch of people who want to scream ``Me, Too!'' and get on Ye Olde Bandwagon... whatever the bandwagon is.
There's an old joke about two paranoids walking down the street. One of them stops and points at an innocent, innocuous shrub. "Who's in that shrub?" the first paranoid asks. The second paranoid answers, "I dunno, but I think I know the guy in there with him!"
... Blowback, not feedback.
Substitute "two loser Linux guys" for paranoids, and "Microsoft" for the shrubbery, and you've got a pretty good description of the behavior we've all seen and condemned.
A few sites--not many, but some, Slashdot among them--have tried to implement feedback mechanisms in an attempt to limit the damage blowback can cause. Moderation and meta-moderation are SLashdot's feedback mechanism.
It's a pretty badly broken mechanism, of course, but it's a helluvalot better than nothing.
I cruise slashdot at +2 and sort for highest ratings first (unless I'm moderating, sometimes a real gem is at -1). Ditto at k5. I only post to, and read, moderated sites. When I write an e-mail I save it, wait 10 minutes, re-read it, edit it, then send it. If I'm writing to (for example) Adobe, because I'm pissed at something they did , I wait an hour before I re-read it.
Best Slashdot Co
Good point but sometimes the best route is the path of least resistance.
How long did it take you to figure out Linux? What else could have been doing with your time? Are you that much better off by doing this?
Yes I agree sometimes you have to think for yourself. But sometimes its better overall to pick the fights that are worth winning.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Human beings are social animals. We live in groups, and are protected by the group we live in. If we piss off the group we live in, then our survival chances go way down. That's less true now than it was in more 'primitive' societies, but it's still true.
People who put themselves first and everyone else second have, historically, had a very poor chance of passing their genes on, and a very good chance of dying young. Which (IMHO) is a very good thing.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
I see this a lot in my current job. I work for a large chip manufacturing company, and I do linux stuff for them. Trying to get specs internally is next to impossible if I need to write a driver to support a new card. I can't imagine how hard it will be for someone else to get specs to allow a device to work.
Testing hardware here I've found that there are 5 types of hardware manufacturers
1) Companies that supply Linux drivers with their hardware
2) Companies that supply Linux drivers as an afterthought on thier web site
3) Companies that mention Linux support then direct you to a 3rd party website
4) Companies that release a product with Windows drivers and hope that someone will write a linux driver.
5) Companies that refuse to acknowledge that Linux exists
Just to preface: I primarily use that "other" OS. Don't worry. It's not just linux they don't like. I made the mistake of picking up an HP system to play with at home. Three months after Win2k was released, they finally came out with modem and sound card drivers, but stated emphatically, including an interstitial message in the download process, that this is unsupported, if it doesn't work, tough, if it causes your marriage to break up, tough. Personally, given the support they have, I never plan on buying an HP product again.
Of course, YMMV. Me, I had a bad experience at a burger king in college. I haven't set foot in a burger king in eight years now.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
> Most of the documentation avaliable for linux is useless to them because they don't understand the terminology involved.
That, and NO FRICKEN examples.
i.e.
- man for
- How do I change my timezone?
- etc.
Not that Window$ software is much better, but 4NT sure has a nice help system.
And here too:
A columnist from The Age dared report that Australian IT managers had no plans to run Linux in their datacenters
The resposes he got were along the same level.
Just b/c someone told you to RTFM does not mean you should whine all over the place about it. Honestly, getting the mouse to work in X is covered in just about every document there is on the Internet. If you are too lazy to look first before you ask, then they are too lazy to help you.
If you or they don't want to help newbies, fine, but I don't think you understand the true problem. If someone is asking questions like this, they probably have no idea where the manual or one of the "every document there is on the Internet" is. These are true newbies. They don't know what sites to go to, they figure they found a site and it even had a place to ask questions. They post their question and get a dozen flames in reply. If people don't want to wast their time with someone who isn't willing to spend time reaearching how to find help on their own, then don't. Just don't respond. I understand that these kind of posts can clutter up newsgroups and forums. If they don't want to deal with newbies, then they should go to a forum named Advanced X Topics, or something like that.
Sure, lots of newbies always start looking in the wrong places at first, just simply remind them where to look for documentation, but first actually listen to them so you know whether or not their circumstances are special or not.
Don't be a dumbfuck, what you say to a newbie can determine whether or not they will eventually learn or not. Not everyone has thick skin, nor should they be required to just to learn to use an OS.
Every time I go into a linux channel, I see the same thing every time. There's always some elitist dumbfuck who thinks he knows everything telling newbies to RTFM, while in fact he himself doesn't even know half of what he thinks he does, so I have to correct HIM while at the same time helping the newbies.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I think what you are saying is obvious. People should do their homework before making a hardware investment. Failure to do otherwise is your own damned fault.
I dont think this adresses CmdrTaco's piece however. CmdrTaco is complaining about users acting like idiots and destroying civility in our online community. He even complains about his own friggin site!! Well, I got one word for CmdrTaco and he might not like it
Censorship
Kur05hin has implemented censorship and a no-Anonymous-Coward policy. Guess what, it seems to be working.
CmdrTaco brought up the linuxusb web site. If linux-usb wants to have a corperate friendly exterior, then it should censor its talkback posts to only relevant posts. The best way to encourage trolls and flame-festers is to give them a soapbox in a very public place. I think it's time we learned to deal realisticly with our immaturity problem. 50% of web users are probably under 21 (that's my guess). Complaining about immaturity doesn't do shit to get it out of my face. It's time to face up to the facts and start censoring our public forums (where appropriate).
If someone has a better idea let me know. I'm not totally facist about this. I'm pretty open to any option that will work.
So what book would you recommend, because you know the newbie will end up with "Teach Yourself Linux is 24 Hours", which wouldn't help worth a damn if they're trying to configure their ISA PnP sound card.
:)
Granted, the situation is a lot better than it used to be. Back when I was a newbie, the local bookstore didn't *have* any Linux books, and linuxdoc.org was sunsite.unc.edu/ldp/ - oh, and Google wasn't on anybody's radar either. You try finding anything on Infoseek, much less decent Linux documentation.
Besides, with the sheer amount of Linux documentation, it's hard to tell the signal from the noise. What if they're following the two year old Sound-HOWTO (look, the boy can read!), only the aforementioned ISA PnP card won't initialize? What FM would you have me read then? (There is a note buried in the Linux kernel documentation, about three or four levels deep, IIRC. The average newbie isn't going to look there.)
Usually all people need is a nudge in the right direction. Four capital letters isn't going to do that. All that will do is make people think you work at the Gap. Or the post office. Now, you really wouldn't want that, would you?
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
Which situation is less likely to piss me, the newbie, off?
Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: RTFM
Me: What manuals? I'm not sure where to start. Point me to some decent manuals and I'll read them.
l33t: *massive arrogant l33t silence*
Or
Me: [Insert question here]
l33t: I think there's a document for that on linuxnewbie.org/a HOWTO for that on linuxdoc.org/a good book for that by O'Reilly that explains how to do that way better than I ever could. Have you read anything like that yet?
Me: No. Didn't know any of them existed. Thanks. *reads*
Telling people to RTFM is no good unless you actually hand them TFM first. How that little fact managed to escape the elitist bastards that run "help" channels (all of them are equally bad) is beyond me.
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
Funny, if I go to #LinuxHelp (or #WindowsHelp, or #MacHelp, or #Commodore64Help, or whatever), I damn well expect to get some help. I expect that to be a place where I can ask some questions, and get some intelligible answers. Otherwise the channel wouldn't be masquerading as a fucking Help channel, would it? I never expected help from #Linux, but #LinuxHelp is another thing altogether.
Which is why it always boggled my mind that the #[OS]Help channels were the worst place to get help on the face of the 'net. If you want to mock newbies, go to #MockTheN00bs already. I mean, come on, how fucking hard is it to type "go to linuxdoc.org and read the HOW-TO"? Really.
I hang out on the ArsTechnica forums a lot, and I do see the same questions bandied about a lot, but at least people there are willing to give you links to threads that already deal with the subject (which is good, because there are times when you just can't find what you're looking for in a search).
I'll say it again - you can't say "RTFM" until you give somebody TFM. If you do, you look like a jackass and a hypocrite. And if you're a jackass and a hypocrite, quite frankly, you are in no position to pretend to be helping people.
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Desktop users don't want to know all about the inner workings of their computers.
Big companies know this, which is why when they see posts to their discussion boards from Linux zealots, they probably scratch their heads and say, "Hmm.. more posts from the Linux fringe... ."
Think of it this way - a lot of people trick out their Volkswagens with all kinds of styling, body work, engine upgrades, and so on. Do you think Volkswagen cares more about these hobbyists, or about the millions of other people who just want to buy a car that looks good, drives well, and doesn't require a lot of maintenance?
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
The good thing about being an almost completely virtual community is that news and information can spread like wildfire. For example, watch what happens when a new Linux kernel is released. For the next few days, the volume of helpful and insightful traffic on Linux boards is phenomenal. People help each other and provide all kinds of evaluations of their experiences with the new kernel. It's times like that when I start to think that Katz is on-target with all of his hot air about virtual communities changing the world.
But the flip side of this virtual community is cases just like the unfortunate H-P discussion board. Here on Slashdot, we have ways of dodging the trolls. Because of the volume of comments on this site, and the number of registered users, the Slashdot system is able to filter out the trolls and their worthless comments.
Unfortunately, most feedback mechanisms employed by Fortune 500 companies don't have such mechanisms. in fact, they would be accused of filtering out negative feedback if they attempted to use a Slashdot-style moderation system.
The painful truth is that Linux consumers aren't your average consumer. They know more about how their computers work. They expect more. They're not taken in by the p.r. and the marketing as much as your average computer user.
Why is this painful? Because we often think we know it all, and we're idealists. We know how the world of computing *should* be, and we're impatient with companies or people who get in the way of that ideal.
How we as Open Source advocates deal with that frustration begs the question: are we capable of dealing with the "unenlightened" in a mature manner, or are we the spoiled hackers many people think we are?
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
- Dependency: Computers are 'hard' and you need an 'expert' to tell you the 'incantation', which of course makes no sense so you write it on a yellow sticky.
- Oral culture - this is a characteristic of the Windows world. The Unix world is centered around the written word: RFC's, man pages, and lately HOWTO's. The Windows world is home to undocumented 'tips and tricks' - arbitrary bits of complexity that are handed verbally from one user to another until Microsoft obsoletes them.
Anyhow, I'd show the user both 'ls --help' and 'man ls'. Given the size of ls(1), I wouldn't mind providing navigational hints. But my overriding concern would be to establish a natural path for the user to look up information, a path which the user can retrace without me.I have to disagree with this point. I believe you are a better person for using Linux. Yes, you are even better for helping someone out, I agree.
Company A produces a widget that involves the exploitation of children (or kills dolphins whatever) person A uses this widget. Person B uses a widget made by company B. They're widget (is technically superior but that's besides the oint) doesn't exploit children... it actually helps them. Who's better person A or person B?
It's allright to feel superior becuase you use a better operating system than Windows (don't forget though that Linux is not the only quality alternative), but to be an ass about it is wrong.
I think part of the problem is that people like to believe that everyone is equal. That's a load of horse shit. People will never be equal (though their oppurtunity should). Some people will be better than others (not necessarily in all areas). In computer terms the operating system you choose is a reflection of your status in that arena. In the same way that being a sports star, or a model, or having a P.H.d, is s reflection of status in their respective arenas. (I will admit that it's not always an accurate reflection, again besides the point).
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
This is true, and I try not to act like that. Although when I'm attacked I can quickly get that way. Helping people with Linux can be fun IMHO. Not if it's someone who doesn't appreciate it. But I like showing people stuff and saying "isn't that f'in cool, now check this out..."
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
I didn't say that. It's not the ownership that makes you better, it's the choice to use something that promotes the free exchange of information, rather than something that inhibits it. Where you choose to spend your money (or not to spend it) does make a difference.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
What we have here is the root of the problem, it is all a matter of belief. I do believe someone who does things to support the good of all is a better person than one who does not. You it seems do not. Stupid I am not, and neither are my ideas, your phrase about having no bearing on anyone else implies a moral relativism that precludes you from catsing aspersions on anyone elses beliefs. Which in the end makes your post hypocritical, while you deride me for expressing my beliefs and (falsely I might add imply that I force them on others) you turn around and try to force yours on me.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
My point of view is that you ARE contributing just by the purchase. You are refusing to give money to that other organization. In this capitalist society you vote more with your dollars than anything else. Does the person who buys dolphin friendly tuna, have to actually go out and actively try to prevent a dolphin un-safe company from producing product, or help the dolphin safe ones? No, the consumer does the right thing by refusing to support a company that has morals that are aligned with his own, and refusing to support a company that does not.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
Yeah, I'm not 1337, but I'm not really interested in being 1337. I use Linux where it's better and fall back on Windows when I find it lacking. I don't have time to go digging out some obscure rmp (I probably would at work, but I don't want to bug the firewall admins).
If Linux is going to become mainstream it needs a simple straightforward user interface that requires less effort to get to grips with (including getting stuff working).
I too weap for our future as I read public message boards, especially ones that supply anonymity (ahem...Sl*shd*t at -1), but the same holds true for just about every internet message boards. If one was to examine the Windows tech support forums, I bet someone would be mad (and equally childish) over not support NT 4.0. Or not supporting some wacky video card API. Or someone who just plain couldn't make the thing work. The "idiots on messageboard" problem is much larger than just the Linux world, and for a company to not support something just because of a childish, vocal minority is more than a little shortsighted.
I bought the thing last year and used it for quite a while under windows. About six months ago I started attempting to move my main pc to linux and get rid of windows entirely. It was then that I realized that this was my problem. What did I do? After a few months of cursing about not being able to switch I jumped on ebay and bought an hp scanjet 4p for 30 some odd dollars shipped, works like a charm and I no longer have ANY microsoft software on my pc. The really bothersome part of hp's attitude toward this scanner is they also don't support pci macs either! I have a pci mac I thought I would hook it to, and then I realized that hp also doesn't support macos of any version either only windows! I hope they can fix this problem sometime, I gave my 3300c away to a friend who uses windows since it was of no value at all to me.
No, I'm afraid you've got it backwards. You see, to these "jerks", you're just another "jerk". The solution isn't knocking everyone in line. The solution is for people to learn to respect each other from where they're coming from.
Changing folks' attitudes are the solution. Your message makes it seem you want to go bust heads (though I grant messages can be interpreted quite differently than intended). Why? Because you're upset that others aren't appreciating you. At the root, this is the same attitude problem that the others have. You just behave differently and have developed a martyr complex as a result.
Please don't take this as a personal attack. It's just that I used to get just as worked up and have since learned that confronting folks doesn't solve anything. The solution is to change your own attitude, and ironically, by so doing you can change others.
This story really brought it home to me:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC04/Dobson.htm
You can't study the darkness by flooding it with light. --Edward Abbey
The original point of these transliterations was to avoid text-search engines from finding keywords; a scanner might be looking for "porn" but wouldn't care about 'p0rn', which a human could probably figure out. When it was reprogrammed to find 'p0rn' they changed it to 'pr0n.' And so on. Like so many things, it was then siezed upon by the masses, and used to mock them by the Intelligentsia. Now, of course, that mocking use is siezed upon by the masses, and the Intelligentsia need to find something else to use.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I've seen this kind of flame-fest ever since I started using the internet. Take usenet as an example. Outside of pr0n, I'd say more than half the posts in many unmoderated technical newsgroups are childish chatter. People call each other nasty stuff and say stupid things all the time. I think it's probably the whole anonymity of the experience. I'm certain that most of those people wouldn't use language like that to someone's face.
You're exactly right. This stuff even predates the widespread use of the internet, but as the access becomes easier, cheaper, and more wide-spread, it becomes more of a problem.
They are referred to as lots of words that I would happily use in friendly conversation with a friend, but never post in a public forum read by strangers.
Taco's point tells us a little bit about why: Many of these people don't have friendly conversations with a friend, at least not face-to-face friends. They have been socialized (or desocialiazed) by the Internet and their computer. They don't understand what tacht is, and they see others using this behavior and accept it as OK. The sad thing is that this type of behavior will eventually decrease the signal to noise ratio to the point that there will be so little useful information on some of these sites that people will stop using them.
"When I go anywhere I make sure to have fully researched (usually w/the Internet, sometimes w/maps) where I am going and what's going on."
So you research where you're going. Who gives a flying fuck? Just because you did research doesn't mean you know where everything is. I see people who have their planned travel maps from AAA who still get themselves lost, and have to ask for directions. At least most people are kind enough to not have the "holier than thou" attitude you have, and help those people.
--
--
The real Raunchola isn't cool enough to have any imposters
"Huh? Blue Screen of wha-"
"Mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent present in every electron." -Freeman Dyson
I don't know about your claim about free beer. I'll bet your average Linux users spends considerably more on hardware annually than your average windows user. A lot of them fall into the "early adopters" category, and have disposable income to buy toys with. The funny thing is that with the current size of the linux market, a hardware company can probably only get ROI for writing a driver if they are one of the only companies that support linux in their class of products (capturing a large chunk of a small market--this is what Apple has done well for 15 years.) If there is already a ton of supported devices, it may not pay to support linux. So, we get what we have--spotty support. There are a few webcams, a few scanners, a few 3D video cards(ok, I'm just bitter because I haven't been able to get my Voodoo3 to play Tuxracer), and a few laptops that linux can use. Because there are already a few alternatives in each of these markets, their is less of an incentive for new entrants to support linux.
"From a certain point of view..." If you look it in terms of a self-contained product, putting aside design issues (which should be irrelevant if specs are available), I guess it is defective, isn't it? (Looking at it like that, that means everyone who ever bought a winmodem got ripped off, but I digress...) I've had the same problem myself -- anyone got a Farallon PC card ethernet adapter they're willing to swap for a 3Com Etherlink, email me...
Anyway, CmdrTaco is right on on this. The fact is that any fringe movement overpopulated with zealots is going to stay fringe -- that's why rms has become a sideshow in the movement he created. The zealots among us must simmer down -- I used to be one of those myself (probably still am -- Radical Moderate and proud), so I know what I'm talking about.
Facts are these:
-Linux is a pretty good system. It's not the cleanest, most versatile, or most elegant thing on the block, but it does what it's needed to do wonderfully. But *it* *can't* *do* *everything*. Neither can Windows, or MacOS, or BSD, or whatever your personal flavor of the week is.
-Those that are quick to flame make the rest of us look bad. It's only a matter of time before someone gets fed up enough to fork Linux under the same acrimonious conditions as happened to BSD.
-Repeat after me: WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. Whether we like it or not, the Linux world has both absorbed and contributed to the world around it. Zealotry don't mean shit when you have to work with someone you hate -- and he's got the wrench you need.
We've got Stallmanites. We've got Raymondites (that's me). We've got people who use Linux just because they like it (probably not the same people who appreciate elegance in design, but those people are still programming in Algol >:-) ). We all bring different things to the party, and some of us deeply resent the stain of being associated with nutjobs who put the cause ahead of minor things like Getting The Job Done.
/Brian
ObKarmaWhoring: For an early example, go to the Jargon File and look up B1FF!!!11!!!!1
The whole thing started quite a while ago and just got very weird from there. (Though I think h4x0r is becoming a verb in its own right with the advent of Net appliances; sort of a more stylish way of saying "pried open" when "crack" doesn't quite pass muster...)
/Brian
In other words they're stonewalling because they don't know any better, or at least don't understand the alternatives...
It's the same in politics, though. It's the story of Edward Teller's career -- come up with an idea, get allies, push the idea, and milk it until everyone realizes it won't work.
/Brian
"anything you can do I can do better"... okay, with OSS I'll grant you that's true -- that's why I'm a believer -- but "can do" and "done are two different things.
/Brian
True. The juicy bits are inside the system anyway. I heard a quote once about technology theft from a Russian intelligence agent to the effect that during the Cold War the Russians were always a couple of years behind the US with a lot of technologies because so much of their effort went into reverse-engineering instead of innovation...
Oy, did I ever say a mouthful. But that's a conversation for a different day.
I don't agree that the IP "isn't worth much", but it really is irrelevant in the driver world. I think what's going on is that these peripheral vendors, for whatever reason, are trying to play the same lockin games that people like Microsoft and Apple play, probably trying to milk the developers for license fees. They're missing the point, though -- fact is, it's not too likely that NVidia is loss-leadering every GeForce 3 chip that goes out the door, and HP's scanners have no place in the developer-licensing equation at all.
Fact is, HP has gained a disgruntled customer. This is not a good thing, and it's time companies like this realized that they are in fact screwing people over.
/Brian
Here's another data point: The same type of thing happend on bulletin boards --- even way back in the early 80s. Not as common, or as vicious, but it was there. No trolls as far as I could remember.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
In any case, people do spend a lot of time learning to use their computer. It takes a lot of time to learn to use Word and Excel as efficiently as the average secretary (if you don't believe me, try it sometime). That's the time they have to learn their computer.
-- the most controversial site on the Web
That attitude is everywhere with some elitists. People who can rebuild a car from spare parts without needing to look at a book feel everyone should be able to take their own car into his garage and be able to fix it in less than five minutes. Anyone who can't is just dumb.
You get it with nearly anything. People who are fully knowledged in something, and have a chip on their shoulder, feel everyone should know something about it. So when you get what Taco described, people demanding support for Linux even though Linux still isn't a profitable operating system for many of the peripheral manufacturers. Since they know Linux well, everyone should, and therefore, there should be as much support for it as with Windows.
It's too bad, too, because without all this elitism people show on forums, and with more support and assistance with a smile, more people may migrate over, even to test it out. Systems are cheap, many have more than one computer in their houses, why not? But the demanding that there be support or you'll call the company names you used in seventh grade will just cause more harm to your operating system's PR, not only to the company, but to those who visit the forums for their new OS.
Who wants to keep Linux loaded when they see that people threaten companies because they won't support that OS? Watch how many get scared that this may happen to everything and get Windows back on the system. Double edged sword in more ways than one.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
That was his point (or part of it): it's a vicious circle. HP (and other hardware companies) don't support Linux because the market is small; mass-market users don't use Linux because they can't understand why the hardware they see in Dixons or PC-World can't just be plugged in.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I was a geek kid, like many other /. readers. For me it was complicated even more by being a gay kid as well. So finding worlds where I could be myself was a major liberation. I think much of the hatred spewed by flamers is actually pent up anger because after we all found a world where we could be safe, along come the masses...
The fact is anti-social behavior under any guise is wrong. The fact that you can hide behind a pseudonym doesn't excuse the behavior. Postings at f*ckedcompany are as bad as anything CmdrTaco mentions...
Way too many of us need serious therapy. Or better games. Vent your anger against a dragon, not some poor shmoo slogging away for a paycheck in the heart of a megacorp like HP.
For the record, being a geek doesn't force me to check my humanity at the door. The fact that CmdrTaco THINKS about our behavior is good. Any group should have voices that question prevailing mores. It is time for the juvenile attacks to stop before we lose all of our outlets (EfNet anyone?).
A better person for running Linux? Why haven't the religious folks heard about this yet?
While running Linux may make you a better computer user, it won't make you better as a person.
From what I've seen, most Linux users are middle-class folks, obsesed with technology, and have enough of an income to afford a second machine to play with. These are precisely the people who think they are better than their white-bread neighbors because they drive a standard car rather than an SUV, or that they recycle (only generate three bags of trash a week) while their neighbors don't (4 bags a week).
Don't fall into the trap that the things you own make you a better person. Sure, there is the potential to do good things with Linux, such as put together a low-cost system for those who couldn't afford one, and who could benefit from exposure to technology. But it may be more beneficial to expose them to MS Office, so they can get a better job with those skills. Despite the bad guy image, the Gates Foundation has donated thousands of computers to libraries and schools so that disadvantaged people can get that exposure.
Sure, you got mad skillz because you can use Linux and your peers and relatives are stuck on Microsoft and AOL. But in the real world, having a tech job doesn't make you a better person, doesn't give you more political clout, and, in many cases, doesn't make you more important than the next guy.
I may have misrepresented your arguement, but I see a lot of adolescent ego in the Linux community, and I think we would be better off getting rid of it, or marginalizing it so that folks know that they don't speak for us. Religious wars over operating systems are one of those areas that make the business world question if Linux is ready for prime time, the end result being less drivers for cheap hardware.
I would wager that it says on the box that the scanner is designed to work with Windows. It might even say that it works with the Mac OS. I really doubt, however, that it claims Linux support, and I don't think it's reasonable to presume that such exists.
It would be just as reasonable to "return" Linux, since it doesn't work with the scanner, as it would be to return the scanner because it doesn't work with Linux.
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
For example, back a few years ago, a friend tried to install linux, and got stuck configuring X-windows and his mouse. He went on IRC to ask for help, and got about 15 people saying "RTFM!!!!" and telling him to go back to windows if he couldn't figure out how to set up X.
So he asked where to find the manual, since he had just downloaded slackware and didn't know where anything was, and nobody replied. He gave up.
I'm trying to get him to try Debian now, but i'm sure things like this have turned off many potential Linux users.
This is also a matter of web culture. You can get so much for free these days that we immediately suspect anything with a digital price tag on it. Reluctant consumers make for a crappy demographic when you're trying to sell ad space. If it weren't for t-shirts, the independent Internet as we know it would cease to exist.
My biggest personal gripe is how people spell Microsoft. Its M-i-c-r-o-s-o-f-t, not Micro$oft, MicroShaft, Micro~1 and the one-hundred and one other variations.
You wouldn't like it if people started calling Linux, GPOO/Linsux. It looks childish, immature, stupid and above all it drops your own personal credibility and the credibility of what you're trying to advocate below the ground.
Just don't do it.
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Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
While I think that's fine if you are taking a class as a CS Major, the average user just can't put up with that crap. Their lives don't revolve around this stuff like ours do. The user ends up resentful because you made them feel stupid for asking. Why not try to help out your fellow users instead of shunning them just because they are lost? You aren't a BETTER PERSON because you installed your OS off of a debian CD than a windows CD. You are a BETTER PERSON because you took the time to help out someone.
I'm trying to put this whole philosophy into action. That's why I've set up the site in my sig. I don't want users to have to search for hours to find a program that gets the job done or find the command listed in some obscure man page. Most of the documentation avaliable for linux is useless to them because they don't understand the terminology involved. It's like telling someone to read a technical journal when what they want is the Popular Science version, because they aren't a professional like you and I.
Uninnovate - Only the finest in engineering.
Sorry... I should have said, "Vax Sux!"
However, quite a few people don't get it. Either they're too young to know anything else, or too immature to take a large view of things. These people are always the loudest, so it is assumed that they make up the bulk of that platform's user base, even if they don't.
This is a problem that has existed on every platform. (How many MAc zealots do you know?) However, it is even more of a problem for Linux because of the nature of Linux Development. Since Linux development depends (for the most part) on open code written by volunteers, the community is much more dependant on the good graces of software and hardware vendors to support Linux.
Mac developers only have to deal with Apple on a regular basis. (Of course, they may not be the most mature people either..). But Linux developers have to deal with the entire community, and the morons shout loudest. Many companies may decide that it's not worth listening to all the morons to find the one or two people who are really interested in working with them. Others may decide (as many people have done with the Mac) that since you can only hear the morons, the entire user base must (by default) be morons.
So I guess that this is a problem that won't go away, because it happens on every platform. But the open nature of the Linux community makes it much more visible. Let's hope that in the future, a rising Linux user base leads companies to want to ignore the morons, or at least just mod them down....
As the popularity of Linux increases, a continually larger portion of the user base will be even less and less technical. It is these users who will be frustrated with lack of hardware support and other such issues, and will not be in a position to do much about it except vent at support reps. As Rob says, this is the drag on adoption by vendors. It isn't the developers who have made great contributions to Linux, that are the offenders here. It's those who lack either the motivation, or slikk to contribute to the development who see postings like 'Linux Driver Unavailable' and have no other recourse but to object loudly and sometimes offensively, that are at fault here.
It really is a catch-22. As the non-technical userbase of linux grows, the incidents of this sort of thing will become more frequent, and as these incidents become fore frequent, the hardware manufacturers will look at their cost benefit analysys and not bother withlinux, in turn reducing the speed of Linux adoption. At some point, however there will be an equilibrium reached, where the speed with which the userbase is growing, will become constant, and eventually the userbase will be of sufficient size to warrant development of Linux drivers for hardware, by vendors of that hardware. Infortunately, the progress to that end might be slowed to a snails pace by the type of behavior that Rob mentions. I disagree, however, that Linux will Never become mainstream. It's progress to that end will simply become extremely slow perhaps to the point where it's influence will become insignificant. I certainly hope this prediciton doesn't come to pass though...
--CTH
--
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
I think what's going on is that these peripheral vendors, for whatever reason, are trying to play the same lockin games that people like Microsoft and Apple play, probably trying to milk the developers for license fees.
That's an old game for peripheral manufacturers, and one that doesn't work so well any more. The video card people, the sound card people, the printer people, the scanner people -- they've all played that game in the past. Those were the bad-old-days, though, when every program came with a half dozen driver disks just to support your printer or sound card.
Since then, we've evolved into a standards-based commodity market for peripherals. (And I hate to say it, but MS kicked off this whole trend with Windows 3.1.) Basically every peripheral out there must conform to (more-or-less) open standards, such as TWAIN, DirectX, or the Win32 printing API. And it's considered the responsibility of the manufacturer to supply drivers which provide that conformance.
There are essentially no developers for the HP scanner outside of Hewlett-Packard itself. Similarly, there are practically no developers for the latest SB Live sound card outside of Creative, and with the exception of some game companies out there, there is nobody developing a thing for your latest 3D video card.
The developers working for the manufacturer have to write the driver software, so that all of the other developers in the world can work with their hardware without paying any license fees.
The reason these companies won't give you the specs for their hardware isn't that they're worried you'll actually write an application which uses it -- it's that their corporate culture, with 40+ years in the hardware vending business, tells them "don't give out the specs, it makes it easier for our competitors to duplicate it, or even extend it".
I agree with you, BTW, that this IP really isn't worth as much as they think it is. They would have a happier, and more loyal customer base if they were to give out the specs, so that we know we can always write our own drivers, even 20 years from now. They are screwing us over, by locking us in to their drivers, which they have no obligation to support on past, future, or alternate operating systems.
Living better through chemicals
let me see-- it is the single most common OS on web servers when counting per site according to Netcraft (Windows is more common when counting by server). It has made tremendous inroads into that industry.
Note that I have been using Linux for over two years and have seen immense improvement in the end user experience (RH5.1 is the oldest distro I have worked with, RH7.1 and SuSE 7.1 are the most recent but I have also worked with versions of Slackware and Debian). PnP and USB support are both becoming more powerful and user friendly in the system level (not only talking the kernel here).
Microsoft's current model of selling large ammounts of proprietary software is not sustainable, and Microsoft top execs know it. This is why they need to move to a subscription model. And it is why open source software like Linux will become mainstream in the end user market (it has been common in the server market for some time).
Sig: Warning The following may be illegal under the DMCA (rot-13 decoder):
ABCDEFGH I J KLM
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
She (Dragoness Eclectic) did admit to doing a dumb thing. She said:
Several years ago I...was still able to turn on the computer, point-and-click through AOL, and post to my favorite newsgroup
There. She admitted to using AOL to post to newsgroups. She's a braver person than I am. Had I been using AOL, I would have just claimed to be doing something less embarassing at the time -- like pleasuring the dog while listening to N'Sync.
Well, I hate taking quotes directly from your post, FFFish, because it will then seem like I am dissecting your opinions and individually shredding them. That is not my intent, and I can only hope you understand that, as I am going to cite from you, simply because it will make more sense to the readers.
...the assholes with their 110dB subwoofer ripping through residential neighbourhoods at 2AM.
It's part of the 'going to hell in a handbasket' problem we've got going in this society.
Sort of. You see, that 'phenomenon' does not exist, or at least not as far as I can tell. I would be very interested if you can show one way society is 'going to hell.' And Taco's does not count, as I shall show later. You see, for whatever reason, we illogical humans think that today is worse than yesterday. "Oh the times, oh the morals" as Cicero said. You see, they ain't. There was teenage pregnancy in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and etc, just as today. There were divorces, JUST as common as today, stretching into the very, very distant past. People stole, murdered, and were rude and hateful to one another for as long as humanity has been around. Allright, fine for me to say this, show me proof, since I am the one postulating. Very well, my proof is This Book by one Richard Shenkman. Read it, it's enlightening.
The root cause seems to boil down to one thing: a lot of people these days are out for #1, and don't give a fuck for the consequences that affect others.
Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome to life. All life, human or otherwise, is governed by the rules of evolution (except in certain states, see your local laws for details). In evolution, we have this thing called survival of the fittest. Therefore, if you are not fit, you don't survive. How are you fit? By looking out for yourself first, and everyone else last. And I mean everyone else. Now we humans like to think we're above that sort of thing, but it's awfully damn hard to just drop a few couple billion (OK, I exaggerate) years of evolution. That means that although we are social animals, and work in groups, we still look after ourselves first and everything else last.
Yes, they are annoying, aren't they? Well, don't worry, at least there're people to get under his skin, too, just like he gets under ours.
Perhaps it's because they're so powerless in every other aspect of their lives. Between their boss and the government, they can't fart without permission. So they take out their frustrations by pissing off everyone else. Maybe that's it.
If you're powerless, it's because you let yourself be. Every day your life is filled with decisions, and you will make those decisions, even if your choice is to not choose, you are still choosing. If you don't like your life, start making different choices. The government makes a convenient scapegoat, and we all need one of those, don't we (see point two)? But scapegoating solves nothing, and that is something which I hope should be self-evident.
Bottom line, at any rate, is that it's time for the nice guys to put their foot down and demand better from others. Don't like the behaviour you see? Don't be a milquetoast -- stand up and demand better!
A CD from iTunes: $10 A Song from iTunes: $0.99 Not paying a cent to Microsoft: Priceless
This post is more about people's attitude rather than the tech support thing.
I see this kind of flamethrowing almost on every forum on the net. Especially if it involves technical stuff, people are so easy to get angry and use bad language and attitude. And the thing is, some of them don't even realize it. It's just too easy to stay in front of the screen and release your worst frustrations, since there is little feedback for self-control.
The same thing goes on with e-mail, it's all soo easy for people to missunderstand an email, it's scary.
It says it all:5 89/1/
http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3
Nobox: Only simple products.
Linux is cheap and works so well that I often try to buy inexepensive hardware to go with it. Usually works, sometimes doesn't. Them's the breaks.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
to the 50 or so people that have explained what "31337 h4x0r" means....
That message is encoded using "h 4 x 0 r - 5 p 3 4 |<" technology, which is a trademark (tm) of RSA Labs, Inc. Decoding the message is a violation of the DMCA and you will be prosecuted accordingly. Explaining the encoding scheme is another crime in and of itself, and charges will be filed regarding that act as well.
Incedentally, this message is encoded in ROT-26 and any attempt to decrypt it will also be investigated.
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The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
Having done my thesis on just this topic, I'd like to point out that Japan is fifth in the world when it comes to its suicide rates. Hungary has been in the lead for quite a while, but with the recent breakup of the Soviet Union, much higher rates of suicide have emerged from several former Soviet republics. The current suicide rate leader is Estonia.
See the chart here.
It would have been nice to see these in order of ranking, though.
Dancin Santa
110db wouldn't be very loud.
:)
I'd say they're at least 120, and if it rattles your house from a hundred yards or so it's 140db+
So I've begun using Linux Mandrake at home. Is it the best at any one thing? Probably not. Does it do lots of things pretty well. Yes. Is it hard to learn? Yes, I think so. I don't want to have to switch, because Linux is a niche market. But I also don't want to be treated like a moron by the 'other' company selling the most popular OS right now, so see ya later MS! Maybe if they can win back my support by once again showing me some respect, as well as respect for everyone out there, then maybe I'll switch back. But going forward, I'll take difficult over disrespected.
P.S. Disrespect for what your users want will make a big difference in the end. Smith & Wesson paid attention to what some politicians and special interests groups wanted, gun locks on all new guns, but their actual customers didn't want such a thing. Guess which gun manufacturer is having the worst time selling their products now, despite their long-standing reputation for quality products for the 'masses'...
Don't they have a return policy? Seems to me if it doesn't work return it. Much better than FUD about how Linux will never be accepted by the masses.
What is pirate software? Software for inventory of stolen treasure?
Cockmasters
Maybe Terrance and Phillip shouldn't be our PR people.
Blame Canada!
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
I have to agree wholeheartedly. It's the idiots that give the scene a bad name (and by scene, I primarily mean linux but that can be pretty much anything). These are the people that demand massive tax cuts for no reason or who still think you can revive Aeris (random FF7 reference) in the Japanese version. Whatever you do there are people who feel that they need to "vent" in a much less civil manner than our good author.
Gotta love democracy. Everyone gets a say, even those who by all logical argument shouldn't.
- Relativistic? That's barely Newtonian!
I think if people would just ask in a civil way for the opportunity to write a linux driver then HP would comply, because they don't want to lose customers, just like anybody else out there. Also did you try to use the configuration of an earlier version of the scanner? I know with printers that sometimes works... PS - What does that code mean in: "I'm talking about the 31337 h4x0r kids with the bad attitude"... I've seen it on this site before but I'm confused as to what it is, is it ROT-13 or something?
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~ now you know
I'm only 20. I don't have my PhD in psychology (yet). I haven't even studied. I have only life experiences. What follows is my take on the situation.
You can't possibly help someone unless they want you to. The problem is that these people do not want help from you - remember, they're superior - why do they need your help? So we're always going to have a bunch of geeks that need to put others down to feel good about themselves. They will not go away.
What we actually *can* do is take a polite approach to whatever we are attempting to accomplish. Linux Help? Okay. Then don't ever utter "RTFM." Start polite help channels - humans helping humans. Understand that you got to where you are today by riding the work of thousands of other people. "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." Know that you are helping someone, just as you were helped. Be appreciative of the fact that they are there, willing to learn. That you can make a difference in their life. Advertise your new solution, so that it gains a following. Eventually it will become well known, and the default of anyone seeking help. /// Linux Advocacy? Okay. Tell people why Linux is superior for certain tasks/needs, not that "Linux owns, Windows eats the big one." Be polite in advocating it. Tell other people to be polite in advocating it. Unfortunately, there will always be those with the inferiority complex that need to make themselves feel better by looking down on others. Unfortunately, they scream louder than most of us.
Also, I wasn't writing here to say what we should do. I was responding to someone who had difficulty in finding help with Linux/computers. I offered my home email address so they could ask me anything they wanted to know. I happened to offer my opinions on Why Things Are The Way They Are along the way, so that hopefully that person seeking help could find comfort in the knowledge that, while yes, there are a lot of jerks in the Linux community, not all of us are like that, and it is possible to find decent help if you know where to look.
I have to leave now, which means that what I just wrote was a quick response to your question. You, too, can email me if you would like to discuss this further/more in depth/share your opinions with what we can do/hear my entire thoughts in a better-versed writeup.
fscked@arm.prestige.net - amputate to email me.
--
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
I've seen this kind of flame-fest ever since I started using the internet. Take usenet as an example. Outside of pr0n, I'd say more than half the posts in many unmoderated technical newsgroups are childish chatter. People call each other nasty stuff and say stupid things all the time. I think it's probably the whole anonymity of the experience. I'm certain that most of those people wouldn't use language like that to someone's face.
However, I don't think this is what stands in the way of more companies accepting and adopting Linux. One must hope that 1) people are less nasty in direct communications with companies like HP, and 2) that if employees are reading such mindless chatter, they realize that this is typical of the internet and not reflective of only Linux users. Instead, I think what prevents some companies from fully embracing Linux is customer base. If my company makes a computer product, and only 1% of all interested users say they would like to use my product with Linux, why should I bother to support it? Because Windows is already firmly entrenched, you must first win the hearts of the consumers before you can sway companies.
GreyPoopon
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GreyPoopon
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Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Several distributions have done what you are calling "dumb down" of the OS. That is, they made the install in such a way that even my wife thinks it's pretty cool. ie SUSE, the SUSE install is all graphical, the LILO boot screen has the cool penguin. I bought her the penguin for Christmas without any explanation, so she is so impressed that it is on the boot screen now! For my machine I did not have to go into any config files to get a completely working system. (I had checked to make sure all my HW was compatible for this very purpose) This point did far more to convince my wife that Linux is more than some text based game I play with for hours then anything I have ever said.
Is the SUSE version of Linux "dumbed down"? I looked very hard at the Kernel source and it appears to still be just as "smarted up" as ever. Am I missing something? I went into the text configuration files and they all appear to still be just as "smart" as ever. When I put on the scroll mouse I was still able to go into the text config file and enable it with KDE.
Here is a distribution that was dumbed down pretty successfully, but I (a somewhat expert user, ran a text only system for 8 years) was still able to get into the "smart" text config files and do what I want. From what I understand, this is the case with all the "dumb" distributions. Give me root access and a terminal and I can be just as "smart" with any distribution.
Linux doesn't support my internal alcatel NIC. Do I scream at alcatel for it? No. They are under no obligation to write the drivers, especially when it's costing them money to do so. Benefits aren't necessarily going to come out of them, so... why bother?
Corporations are under no obligation. Do your homework before you get a product. It's that simple.
If you fsck up, well... use windows. it won't kill you.
Screw 3...
This is the way people are. Calling for a change is really somewhat useless. You reach millions of people and give them an opportunity to post anonymously with no chance of direct confrontation. (Drop 'Casablanca' in a conference room at HP with real people right in front of them- you wont get that nonsense) And you get stuff like that.
But the positives outway the negatives so I think that the smart focus is on ways to minimize the impact these people have.
Yesterday someone complained about all the "FP" posts. The reply was to set filters higher. Now that really made sense. Let the kids play FP games, mod them down and let others read what matters.
You can't get rid of the lowest common denominator- so find ways to get around them.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
i think there are a lot of people out there who lacked attention when they were growing up.
The only thing that having somebody else's specs does is let you see how, in high-level terms, they made it work. But nowadays, most of this is publicized (eg. nVidia improved memory bandwidth on the GeForce3 with a crossbar memory controller). So all that it boils down to is the ability to make cards that are 100% compatible, but not identical.
But any engineer will tell you that there are always things they would like to do different. So, while a new feature ("framebuffer blit engine" for older video features, for exxample) would be cloned by everybody if the word of it existing got out (and it got out fast, and was subsequently cloned, so now virtually all video cards have one of these), the implementations will almost always be different.
And it's always easier to hire 5 engineers than 1 good reverse-engineer, and reverseing takes a lot more effort (around 100x for some cases, meaning more staff).
I should point out here that reverse-engineering software (IE the drivers) is actually much simpler than hardware, although still challenging at best. In most cases, this is what happens, the actual competitors dismantle the drivers to see how it works, so really it doesn't protect them any.
Hardware, software, and blinking lights!