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Linux-Based OS For Palm Hardware
slash.monster writes: "I was reading through Canadian Newswire today and came across this. Quoted from their press release: 'Linux DA O/S replaces the Palm O/S within the actual handheld device but
still remains fully compatible with Palm's hardware, proving that Linux DA O/S is a flexible and powerful operating system. Using the open source Linux kernel, Empower Technologies has designed Linux DA O/S to be the first Linux compatible O/S scaled down for the Motorola Dragonball CPU platform used by Palm handhelds.'"
"I've got a Palm Vx, but I'm gonna get some friends to check this out. Should be interesting to see if thier claims are true." There is a free DEMO (their caps) version to download, says the release, but the final version will be payware.
This sounds really great.
Now all I have to do is hook this up to my scanner.. oh, umm, nevermind.
OK, I can understand a repeat story here and there, but this is getting *ridiculous*. I don't even think it's that important of a story, but for the last few weeks you'd think its the top thing on everyones mind. Speaking on behalf of all the readers, we have read it once, twice, three times, we understand, "The Page Cannot be Displayed". Why does this article have to be posted every hour? I think we're all well-versed by now that, yes, the page we are looking for is currently unavailable. And while it is also true that the Web site might be experiencing technical difficulties, and rumors abound that we may need to adjust our browser settings, is there any reason to continue to pound it into our heads? Your tips section does no good either. I have clicked the refresh button, the same story loads. Your information that some sites require 128-bit connection security does come timely as security is very important in this day and age, but I think if we've read it once, we've read it 1,000 times, literally. So let's go for a little more communication between the editors or something, because by this point surely we all know, "The page cannot be displayed".
I want to see screenshots of the apps. If I can't seamlessly move from PalmOS Phonebook to LinuxDA Phonebook, then LinuxDA is *NOT READY FOR RELEASE TO ANYONE*.
Make it seamless from v1.0, or make a lot of disappointment. Maybe they've got a good handle on this issue, but in case they dont: it needs to be addressed as a priority from LinuxDA Version 1.0 onwards...
I want to know what sort of tools for development on LinuxDA are available *now*. Are they as good as the PalmOS tools that are available too? If it's not super brainfart easy to develop apps for the LinuxDA environment, without any monkery, then it should be... as soon as possible.
I look forward to checking this out a bit more when the download becomes available. As a developer for Palm, this sort of thing is very interesting...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I don't presume it because it's different, I just don't want to move to PalmDA and have difficulty with my *HUGE* contact databases on the new environment.
It's sorta like the MS Word/.DOC situation, you know what I mean? It's not the app that matters, its the fileformat.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Right now, there's no Perl. Once Perl is installed, everything is balanced in the world.
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
Disclaimer: I have not used a Palm device in over a year. I don't have one to test this on.
/. them. Pretty sneaky!
Inside the 4.6 MB are 3 files, the ROM @ 983K, and RTF file for the install docs @ 1.9MB and a PDF for the OS manual at 1 MB.
Pretty silly to have 3MB of docs for a 983K ROM. It smacks of Windows Bloated thinking.
The install guide is pretty basic. Backup your exiting OS and then flash the new ROM...
The OS guide is simple and basic. If you've used a Palm then you don't need it.
I could find nothing in the docs that tells me why this is any better than PalmOS. There are plenty of screen shots, but nothing that makes me think this is Linux. It just looks like a generic PDA GUI.
There's no sign of X or GNU or anything else you'd expect to see on any Linux box.
According to the docs the demo is missing alot of stuff that's in the full package. It looks like the PC side (Palm Desktop) is missing. There's no games either.
There is no mention of connectivity besides with the desktop and beaming stuff to other Palms. They don't even mention 'email'.
Based on what I've seen I'm underwhelmed by the whole thing. If I had a Palm I would not waste my time installing this on it.
Of course when somebody really installs it maybe they'll see something exciting about it that I've missed from the docs.
My guess is the company really just wanted to load test their servers so they unleashed this to get us to
But once you have received the binary, not only are they obligated to provide the source, but you can redistribute it without any obligation to them. Your only obligation is to the GPL.
They can only control reverse engineering and distribution of their code. In other words, code which is not a derivative of any GPL software. Their calendars, address books, perhaps even their handwriting recognition can all be theirs, but the kernel and the kernel's port to the hardware is certainly GPL, ditto for gcc cross compilers, special implementations of languages etc. I won't however get into the thorny issue of binary modules. That's a whole other mess.
This may mean that all the good stuff is legitimately protected... like how to flash your palm, handwriting recognition or the conduit sync software.
Sorry, IIIe's didn't have a flash ROM (kept costs down), so no, it won't work on a IIIe.
Check out the many open source PalmOS apps at http://www.palmopensource.com/ Don't forget the nifty VNC client for Palm http://www.harakan.btinternet.co.uk/PalmVNC/index. htm
---
I just grabbed a copy and unpacked it using the Windows-only unpacker (nice choice...) and got the licensing agreement window telling me I couldn't distribute any derivative works of whatever was in there. That sounds like it goes 100% against the GPL...
Posted from the wireless couch.
I should add this, which makes this look like an even smaller operation than it already does:
.com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
.COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
$ whois linuxda.com
[whois.crsnic.net]
Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain names in the
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: LINUXDA.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: ANTARES.STARCON.COM
Name Server: STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM
Updated Date: 17-apr-2000
>>> Last update of whois database: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 01:56:11 EDT
The Registry database contains ONLY
Registrars.
[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems). Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.
Registrant:
LEUNG, PAUL (LINUXDA-DOM)
UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE
RICHMOND, BC V6V 1W5,
CA
Domain Name: LINUXDA.COM
Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Billing Contact:
LEUNG, PAUL (PLJ76) aem_admin@AMIPO.COM
LEUNG, PAUL
UNIT 120, 13551 VERDUN PLACE
RICHMOND
BC
V6V 1W5
CA
604 649 8883 (FAX) 604 278 3102
Record last updated on 17-Apr-2000.
Record expires on 16-Dec-2001.
Record created on 16-Dec-1999.
Database last updated on 18-Jul-2001 21:35:00 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM 207.230.244.2
ANTARES.STARCON.COM 208.181.131.6
-
Learn to use the tools, children:
.com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered
.COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and
$ whois empower-technologies.com
[whois.crsnic.net]
Whois Server Version 1.3
Domain names in the
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.
Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, INC.
Whois Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Referral URL: http://www.networksolutions.com
Name Server: ANTARES.STARCON.COM
Name Server: STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM
Updated Date: 13-feb-2001
>>> Last update of whois database: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:02:47 EDT
The Registry database contains ONLY
Registrars.
[whois.networksolutions.com]
The Data in Network Solutions' WHOIS database is provided by Network
Solutions for information purposes, and to assist persons in obtaining
information about or related to a domain name registration record.
Network Solutions does not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
WHOIS query, you agree that you will use this Data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this Data to:
(1) allow, enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass
unsolicited, commercial advertising or solicitations via e-mail
(spam); or (2) enable high volume, automated, electronic processes
that apply to Network Solutions (or its systems). Network Solutions
reserves the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting
this query, you agree to abide by this policy.
Registrant:
LINUX DA INC. (EMPOWERTECHNOLOGIES2-DOM)
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA
Domain Name: EMPOWER-TECHNOLOGIES.COM
Administrative Contact, Billing Contact:
LINUX DA INC. (LD2286-ORG) no.valid.email@worldnic.net
LINUX DA INC.
Unit 120, 13551 Verdun Place
RICHMOND, B.C. V6V 1W5
CA
604 278 3100 fax: 604 278 3102
Technical Contact:
WorldNIC Name Host (HOST-ORG) namehost@WORLDNIC.COM
Network Solutions, Inc.
505 Huntmar Park Drive
Herndon, VA 20170-5142
1-888-642-9675
Record last updated on 13-Feb-2001.
Record expires on 18-Jan-2002.
Record created on 18-Jan-2001.
Database last updated on 18-Jul-2001 05:14:00 EDT.
Domain servers in listed order:
STARRUNNER.STARCON.COM 207.230.244.2
ANTARES.STARCON.COM 208.181.131.6
-
Until you get it right, apparently :-)
The GPL states that you must OFFER the source code with the distribution. Your offer may refer to another method of actually obtaining the source code, but the consumer must be appraised of his or her rights at the time of distribution. (term 3b)
In addition, it must be accompanied by a copy of the GPL. (term 1 included by reference in term 3)
Therefore if the operating system comes to you without a copy of the GPL, or without a written offer to provide the source code or notice of where the source code can be obtained, then one of the following two statements must be true:
1) It's not Linux-based, and therefore although it may be distributed legally it's advertised fraudulently.
2) It is Linux-based, but it's being distributed illegally, as the copy of the GPL and offer of source code is required in order to comply with the terms of the GPL, and you may not distribute a derivative work of Linux unless you distribute it according to the terms of the GPL.
I tried the exact same thing, got the same error and the blank screen. I also noticed that the emulator was using up all my CPU...it seems its gone into some infy-loop.
anyone else try this?
Ghoul
Sigura Non Grata
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
And I have a bunch more questions that a lot of other people will ask. But if anyone has any details, please share. I've been wating to dust off my old Palm (aye, there's a joke in there somewhere). If this is cheap enough and has enough functionality, I might just try it.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
I just did a page on this very thing:
http://mmdc.net/p/ssh.html
Hope this helps -
Jim in Tokyo
MMDC Mobile Media
-- My Weblog.
Just because they use the kernel, actually, especially in a palm device, does not mean they used *ANY* other GPL libraries....
Unless you expect to find a 'unix-like' system on it....
But they could easily be using the kernel in other ways.
These guys did NOT port Linux to the palm; it's already been done. They may have put something together to make it install easier, they may have developed some-palm type apps,which would be god...
But, given the propaganda-like marketroid speak they use, I'd say they are mainly trying to cash in looking like a linux player.
The sole reason an EULA can't limit the rights granted by the GPL is that the GPL forbids it. If they do impose such an EULA they are either in breach of licence (the GPL) or (if they claim not to have agreed to the GPL) in breach of copyright (for distributing the software without licence to do so).
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
That "license" agreement is for the web site, not LinuxDA.
Perhaps it's the first complete distro, or something, but I highly doubt they did all this by themselves. Remember ucLinux?
I really wonder, though, if my Palm m100 is someplace I want to run Linux. PalmOS works fine, and does the intended job. If it ain't broke....
You can stop wondering. The m100 (and 105) don't have a flash rom, so you can't upgrade the OS on it. Palm.com's comparison chart of all their models shows which of their current models have a flash rom.
"Intelligence is the ability to avoid doing work, yet getting the work done".
It's only software!
That's the funniest damn thing I've seen all day.
Any chance this could run on my super-old "professional" PalmPilot? I mean, I can't seem to find any software for it since it's PalmOS 1.x(or is it 2?)
daBears, daBulls...
Anyone know about compatibility with the various Handspring models?
They list a price tag of $39.99 for the "Consumer" package, and $59.99 for the "Professional" package. Both are available for the Palm IIIx/IIIxe and Palm Vx.
(Seems to me that this is a severely limited subset of all the Palm platforms that are out there...)
The Consumer pacakge comes with your standard apps, ToDo, Expense, etc, and the Professional package adds their SDK.
Of course, they have no screen shots or other means to evaluate how well the apps replace those available with PalmOS, and no details on how to install. I'd want those details before I'd commit $60, even if I did get a free t-shirt from their amazingly annoying blinking ad.
Perhaps they are refering to the applications software that seems to be the meat of the product. I tried finding out more about it but stopped after I saw the big honking !!!! BLINK !!! tags on the store page.
Fsck cluebie moderators. I'll say what I want, offtopic or not. And fsck having to qualify every bloody statement just
Perhaps, but in that case it's rather misleading. Read it carefully. They write about ''software found on [this site]''.
But yes, probably that's just a mistake and the Linux kernel will be free and GPL as usual, but all the softwares on top of it will not. Probably you can't even develop software for it without their cossstly SDK. Much use, not.
Pay...ware? Linux? Me not understand?
The site www.linuxda.com says:
Excuse me, but I thought Linux is under the GPL license or something?
Dada.
--
-- SIGFPE
So, once you download the binary, you can send them an email saying "hey, I have the binary of your software, it's GPL, please give me the code"
Then, if they don't give you the code, that's when they are violating the GPL.
--
Free Mac Mini
...coming right after CmdrTaco's rant of the month?
Got Rhinos?
So I guess people haven't come lining up in advance to code for this new platform yet.
They say they've got a GUI and handwriting recognition and an SDK and so forth, which is nice. No talk about hotsync hardware, which I find interesting. They claim to have their demo up for downloading in 90 minutes, so fine, we can see the rest for ourselves then, but I have a few big questions...
How much of linux is there besides (presumably) some of the kernel? libs? shells? networking?
And, can they, and will they, do app-level compatibility with palmOS?
We're on the road to Tycho.
i imagine that this will be useful for a terminal machine. just plug one end into the serial cable, the other into the machine. with one of those ethernet adapters (palm has some, right?), you could get a little ssh/telnet client going, would be sweet. then you'd need one of those little folding keyboards, but it would work. and i hope the battery life stays up there too. this kind of thing just might make me break down and buy one.
might
Do you see the sig? Do you have it in your sights? Why yes, Miss Moneypenny...
Holy Budda. The Linux/Slashdot community has just become a 'great nation;' it's advanced enough to discriminate against random people based on their origin. This is one of several posts trying to insinuate (or flat out claim) that being in Redmond is somehow damning. It frightens me. The mistakes of others indeed... Why do I have a sudden image of a rainstorm, a muddy road, and a wrought iron gate. As I look up the gate, I can make out words: "Arbeit macht Frei (wieleicht Bier) Software"
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
d00dz!!!
imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these!
Linux DA is the dominant software platform for the Consumer Electronics Industry.
Ummm What? Ive never heard of "Linux DA", how did it slip past and become *the* "dominant sw platform"?
Lies, Damn Lies and Marketing. I hate PR speak...
It'll never pan out. Linux will never be mainstream enough. *cough*
Their website says 'except as provided in the licenses of individual components' or somesuch, so theoretically the GPL trumps their whole EULA. But to be sure, this is at least very confusing.
Bryguy
microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
Empower Technologies Inc.
Redmond, WA
USA
Tel: 425.881.0909
Fax: 425.881.0889
Funny, they have no street address. Furthermore, they're listed as "Empower Technologies / Rdm" on the yellow pages.
The only reason I can think of for them not wanting to state their address is because they're ashamed of it, or because they strategically want to hide it. And the only address I'd be ashamed of or I'd want to hide strategically in Redmond is "1, Microsoft Way".
I wonder if ... no, it cannot be ! Maybe Empower Technologies is an offshot from Microsoft trying to take the palm market over using ... LINUX ! ARRGH SOMEBODY STOP THEM !!!
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
yeah, I know. but usually, people who plan to give out the source wouldn't want to have a bunch of emails to deal with, so they post it. And these people aren't. And there's no way everything GPL just compiled without changes and they only added external non-GPL stuff to it. So I find it slightly surprising that there's not even a mention. You'll notice my original post didn't accuse them of GPL violation -- it just expressed a large amount of incredulity for any plans of theirs to stay within the GPL. I could be wrong and all. In fact, I'd like to be. forgive me if I have a large dose of cynicism toward companies I haven't heard of before.
OK, it's Linux, right? which means GPL. SO, where are GPL info? not on the site. There's not a copy of the GPL, not a mention of it, and they provide an email address for licensing info (sales@linuxda.com). Legal info is here, and does not suggest GPL at all. Of course, the software won't be availble for 1 1/2 hours as of this writing, so it might change, but I have to wonder what's going on. I think that if (when?) binary-only copies appear I'll send an email. Anyone care to correct any of this?
Multitasking
Also multihreading
---
MOD THE CHILD UP!
Has anyone gotten this to work in the emulator? All i get is an debug message about an application wrighting to 0xFFFFFA36 and a blank screen.
StoneWolf
Wouldn't it be a riot if they did this without considering the license, and always just assumed that they would be able to sell tons of copies? We'd have the egg-on-his-face CEO, the conniving developers who didn't bother to mention the GPL while they ported and hacked, and the shamed-out-of-work designers. "We didn't know!" they'd say.
They'd be the new poster child for the Microsoft anti-GPL FUD campaign.
I got my Linux laptop at System76.
The above reply is so wrong on so many fronts:
1. What sane person would want to run decades-old text-based applications on something with no keyboard and a 3" screen? If you have to play Zork on it, it's been ported to the PalmOS already.
2. Linux bears ittle resemblence to the Unix of 30 years ago, which was written in DEC PDP-7 assembly language, had no pipes, and no support for networking, among many other basic differences.
3. I've been doing embedded system development since 1980 and the Palm is *not* an embedded system. It may be something that some hobbyist could duct tape to some homemade robot, but that does not make it into an embedded system.
4. There is no problem with the PalmOS and it is perfectly suited to the device. If you doubt me, explain the plethora of small, efficient, graphical apps that are readily available for it.
This is just another look-what-we-ported-Linux-to project. It does not serve a useful purpose. There is no glaring deficiency in PalmOS or the apps available for it. Now tell me what you need it to do that it cannot.
make me seem like a '1337 h4x0r!
Good reply and a great one-line summary of the real reason that many people are hyped about this.
Who cares if you can't use standard Palm apps and lose all of the functionality of the Palm as a handheld organizer? It's all worth it when you can enter ls -l with the stylus and watch cryptically named files scroll past (in a smeary, LCD kind of way).
Pic1
Pic2
You might say that it's not worthwhile running multiple applications at once due to the small screen. I agree that it isn't practical to run two full applications at once. But how about a spellchecker/dictionary that has a small UI running at the same time as your typical Notes application. Or a search box that looks up names and email addresses for you.
-Sean
Damn. That sucks.
/. effect I guess cuz it could only cough up about 1.8k/sec...
Before I read your reply I tried downloading... their server is seeing a bit of
___
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
The demo can be downloaded in exactly 1 hour from right now right here.
;-)
Does anyone know if Palm IIIx compatibility means Palm IIIe compatibility? Because if it doesn't, my interest level is dropping fast.
(proud Palm IIIe owner
___
___
The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. --Ben Franklin
see:
http://www.linuxda.com/legal.html
hmmm, they don't sound the most open source of people. Presumably they'll have to release the kernel part under GPL but I dare say all the other stuff (address box, calender etc) were developed in house and so they can license them any damn way they like - much like Tivo in fact.
And I am very excited about this news. I got my palm for $160, and most Linux handhelds are a little more expensive then that :)
This means I can install Linux without changing hardware. I wonder if the Linux OS for Palm comes with dual boot for the current Palm OS. A dual boot handheld....that would be awesome!
Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
What can Linux do on a Palm device that PalmOS already does admirably well?
Christina! Bring me an axe!
If you go to the linux store you see that they are chargeing 59.99 for it... and it comes with sync software.http://www.linuxda.com/store/index.html
Now I'll be able to hook my Palm up to my HP 3300C scanner....oh, wait a sec.....
I just finished downloading and installing the image into my TRG Palm III. Of course, since the TRG units have a different offset to load the kernel, the image would not work.
I called linuxda customer support, and was connected to a gentleman called Michael. He was very pleasant, and I explained that I needed the source code (as required by GPL) to correct the issue and make the image work for me.
Verbatim :
Michael : "We have the image available for download. The source code is not going to be available."
Martin : "I am aware that your own programs are not under the GPL, however are you aware that you must release the source to the kernel and changes you have made to it, as well as the source code to any other GPL programs that may be in the image?"
Michael : "Yes, we are aware of it. We will make the source code for that available in a few weeks."
Martin : "Are you aware that this is something of great concern to both the linux and open source community?"
Michael : "We are aware. We want people to download [ the image ] first."
Martin : "Allright. Let me give you my email address, I would like to be notified as soon as the source for the GPL code becomes available."
Michael : "Yes, I will do that. Please send email to support@linuxda.com"
-----
In my opinion, the people in charge at Linux DA may not have realized how strong community backlash is when source code is not released. It would probably go very well for us if we sent a POLITE email to support@linuxda.com requesting that the source code for GPL code used be made available as soon as possible.
A possible form letter to use :
To Whom it May Concern,
I am a user/developer of open software. It concerns me greatly that your company has released a binary-only image of GPL'ed (Gnu Public Licence) software. Releasing and distributing GPL'ed software without simultanious release of the source code is in violation of the GPL licence.
I respectfully urge you to release and make available for general download the source code to any GPL code and modifications/patches your company has made to the code as soon as possible. As a user and/or developer of open source software, it is important to both myself and the community at large that the terms of the GPL be adhered to both in the sentiment, and letter of the law.
Sincerely,
(insert your name)/(email address)
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919