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Update on the Kite-Obelisk Project
pyramidiot writes: "A month or so ago a story from the LA Daily News about a group of people who are trying to prove that the Egyptians may have used kites to erect obelisks and build pyramids was posted on slashdot. Naturally, the article as a bit bland and left many questions unanswered, and some answered incorrectly. Well I'm the engineer of the project and I've been developing a website to answer everyone's questions. The URL is www.pyramidiots.com, and, although it is still under development, it may help to answer most of your questions."
Enthusiasm for raising obelisks in interesting ways is fine, but suggesting that they were originally raised by the same means is, well, stupid. Pulleys? Carts? Steel plates? Kites? There are more anachronisms in this scheme than can be counted, and many of them are essential to it. Other attempts to reproduce ancient engineering feats have at least made some kind of effort to restrict themselves to the technology of the day; even then, many have been far more elaborate than techniques that would actually have been used, sometimes relying on modern maths even when the devices used could conceivably have been built.
The real problem here is psychological (or maybe psychiatric). The Egyptians didn't have much trouble mobilizing labour and were not, generally, gadgeteers. The techniques they used were probably the simplest ones that could be used with the help of an army of peasants.
I understand that the site is only half-serious and that it may be hoping just to raise debate on the subject, but it's about as helpful as trying to open an argument on whether or not space aliens lent a hand.
Source Aish haTorah's Crash Course in Jewish History part 9: Moses
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Their page is obviously a cleverly designed porn attraction. You may not want to check it at work.
... I have one question. Will this make my obelisk larger? Not that I have a small obelisk.
Erect Your Own Obelisk!
"Wonder how it works?
Coming soon: interactive obelisk raising simulation!"
I can hardly wait for the MPEG
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lake effect weblog
lake effect weblog
{Network engineer in Chicago--looking for work!}
- A big, modern nylon-kite
- A dozen or soo modern low-friction pulleys.
- A few hundred meters of pro low-friction super-strong syntetic rope. (locked like climbing-rope to me)
Then you can raise a small obelisk on it's end.Big surprise there. I completely fail to see how this even indicates that the old egyptians /could/ have done this. To demonstrate that possibility you'd have to repeat the experiment with the materials available to the old Egyptians. (this means no nylon, no syntetical fibers, only the kinds of cloth the Egyptians had, no ball-bearing low-friction pulleys.)
I wonder how much of a pull such a kite provides anyway. More than 8 people with an old-fashioned manual winch ? I doubt it. And much less manageable, since you need convenient wind.
... they sound like a spectacular construction method. One that would have been immortalized in art.
I'm skeptical of the kite theory simply because we haven't run across any paintings or etchings of people using them to raise the stones.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
Raising ships with ping-pong balls
Solar sails for spacecraft
Laser-powered spacecraft
Supersonic speeds underwater
Fake breastesses
Sometimes it feels so good to be a human being :)
"Has sensational journalism gone too far? Find out at eleven!" - John Stewart
"We have an A-Bomb...what more do you want, mermaids?" --I.I. Rabi, speaking in defense of Robert Oppenheimer
Basically the Egyptian government is worried that if someone somewhere can prove without a doubt that the Jews (slaves in Egypt waaaaaay back when) built the pyramids, then there's gonna be hell to pay when Israel wants to take back the pyramids that their blood built. In today's politically correct climate, they'd have a decent legal shot at it too. So they fund experiments like this to prove that their ancestors were much smarter and greater than we give them credit for.
Even though you and I know that the easiest way to build pyramids would be to use slaves, for all we know aliens could have erected them as landing points for giant starships.
Peace,
Amit
ICQ 77863057
[o]_O
This looks like a clever assortment of levers and pulleys to allow a small amount of force to move a heavy object. Such machines are nothing strange; my question is, and I was unable to find a reason, why do you need a kite? Why not some people (they had plenty of slaves, no?) pull on the rope instead?
Those who do not know the past are doomed to reimplement it, poorly.
Why does everyone think that everytime they come up with a creative way to move a large object that they have discovered the way the egyptians built the pyrimids and oblisks?
I saw a very interesting thingie on PBS about this, the archelogical evidence suggests that the egyptians did everything with three elements, human labor, wood, and sand. Wood was the only one which they didn't have abundant supply nearby, but pieces of a giant wooden barge, large enough to carry many stones or a few oblisks, have been found, and a replica made.
The Oblisks stand upon stone squares with what archaeologists call a turning groove. This turning groove they claim, kept the oblisk from sliding around as it was stood into place.
A theory which will be difficult to prove by archaelogical evidence about the erection of the oblisks is that they used the most simple machine they could, gravity. A large box was made around the base for the oblisk and filled with sand. Several sand vents were cut in the sides of this box, allowing sand to run out when opened. The oblisk was dragged on top of the sand and the vents opened. This technique has been demonstrated, it gets the oblisk within a few degrees of vertical, the remainder can be pulled by fewer than 200 men.
Why would they need to use kites when they could use sand and gravity?
BTW, at first I thought you were saying that they used JEW's to construct thier stuff. Big shock, its in the bible...
Spring is here. Don't believe me, look outside!
Human labor.
Why would Egyptian engineers bother developing such outlandish methods of construction when they could use the most available resource in any advanced society- human labor. Considering the influence of religion in their society and the intelligence levels of the common workers, when the Pharaoh (who was considered a God) gives the command for an oversized grave marker, people get to work.
The most promising explanation on how the Pyramids were built I've seen was by an archeologist who discovered some wooden models. These models were 2 flat pieces of wood, each shaped into a half circle, and then attached together by wooden pillars. He theorized that these were models of the equipment used to move the 6,900 lb. blocks of stone. By standing the rectangular stone on its shorter end, and then attaching these half circle units to each longer side with thick rope, the stone block was now the shape of a circle. This could easily be done with enough human hands.
Now, with enough human labor these mammoth blocks could now be rolled with relative ease to their position. To raise the blocks up to the top of the pyramid he suggested the ramp method which had been theorized by other scientists. This basically was a dirt ramp that was built around the sides of the pyramid as it got higher, which allowed the stones to be dragged in place, or in this case, rolled into place. Given enough slaves, every block could be moved into position in a timely manner- allowing the pyramid to be completed in the relatively short time of 20 years.
All of this could be done with some of the most readily available resources: willing human labor, wood, rope and dirt.
Good point. Another thing to consider: If they used this method to raise huge rocks into the air, why didn't they also use it for warfare? Remember that most new technology usually ends up as weapons. A legion of obelisk kite-flyers would be a powerful force against besieged cities, or against armies that had advantage of higher terrain.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
...it doesn't mean it *was* done with kites. This is a cool project, but I seriously question the claim to historical accuracy. There are no recorded instances of kites until around 200 BCE.
It's not like the materials to build a kite are particularly rare or hard to manufacture--in ancient Egypt, they could have used reeds and papyrus. So if the technology was known, why haven't kids been flying kites in Egypt since the days of the pyramids?
Ooo! I know; the priest cast must have kept this technology forbidden. And thus it was lost to the ages. The world's greatest mystery turns into the world's oldest conspiracy theory!
So, if the theory that the Egyptians used kites is flawed (and I think it is), then why bother doing this project specifically to raise obelisks, instead of some other kind of engineering feat? I think that Clemmons is trying to evoke the mystery and majesty of the pyramids to raise money for what is otherwise merely an interesting engineering trick, increasing her salary to boot. The whole thing relies on the donations that she or people working for her can drum up, and the merchandising of overpriced goods.
It's a Pyramid Scheme!