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Cray SV1 Named Best Supercomputer for 2001
zoombat writes "The BBC reported that the Cray SV1 product line won the Readers' Choice Award for Best Supercomputer for 2001 by the readers of Scientific Computing & Instrumentation magazine. These beasts have some pretty remarkable stats, including a 300 Mhz CPU clock, up to 192 4.8 GFLOPS CPUs or 1229 1.2 GFLOPS CPUs, and up to a terabyte of memory. And they sure know how to paint 'em real nice. Of course, we all know how "scientific" the Readers' Choice Awards are..."
I won't waste my breath.
I will. Crays are vector supercomputers, which is something entirely different from your garden-variety Intel or RISC chip. There are several different types of computer you need to consider in the sort of comparison you're making:
- Vector supercomputers. This includes Cray, and some by Fujitsu and Hitachi (perhaps NEC as well, but I think those are MIPS-based).
- Massively parallel shared-memory supercomputers. The IBM SP2 and SGI Origin 2000/3000 come to mind. You take two of these, plug them into eachother, and get one computer twice the size with (I think) virtually no loss of bandwidth. I'm pretty sure these can also be connected just for high-bandwidth communications, but the real advantage is in shared memory. Cray makes these too, and SGI's MPPs are largely based on Cray technology (hence the "CrayLink" on Origins).
- Distributed computers. Beowulf is just a set of patches (primarily to Linux) to make distributed-memory programming easier (e.g. utilizing multiple ethernet cards for higher bandwidth). You still have to write programs specially to take advantage of the machine.
The difference lies primarily in programming techniques. You can not run a simple multithreaded program that would saturate an SP2 or Origin on a Beowulf cluster. You'd have to re-write it with PVM or something. PVM is not difficult, but it's not transparent. Some Fortran 90 compilers will do automatic parallelization, but not for a distributed-memory system.
Basically, there's a hell of a lot more difference between a Cray and a Beowulf cluster than between the Beowulf cluster and the SETI@home network.
-Nat
( disclaimer- I am not a supercomputer programmer, but a lot of the people I work with are. I do know something about parallel code, however. )
Not true for real world applications.
We run Octanes with Dual R10K 300 Mhz CPUs and 1 GB RAM running IRIX 6.5.5M. These boxes cost us $35 - $40 K EACH.
Last year, we began testing Dell Precision 420MT workstations with Dual 866 - 933 Mhz PIII CPUs, 1 GB RAM running RedHat 6.1 out of the box with no kernel optimizations, older version of gcc and glibc. These boxes cost about $7000 each.
For our purposes (voice recognition models), the Dell systems out perform the Octanes by 25% at 1/5 the cost.
The other thing that kills us is the $70K annual support contract to SGI.
Guess what? We're selling the Octanes and going to install even faster rack mounted x86 compute servers that cost even less than the Dell workstations.
BTW, does anyone have information on how many MFLOPs current x86 hardware is capable of?
"I'm The Bounty Bear. I will find him anywhere. I'm searching."
Simulating nuclear weapons also falls under "energy research".
Well... I figured they weren't trying to solve CA's energy crisis.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
Where is it wrong? Arguments please..
As it is now, each and every word in that posting is right on the money.
The 6th fastest (reported) supercomputer on that list is ASCI Blue Mountain (a cluster of 48 SGI Origin 2000's). It's pretty interesting to note the installation date of that machine... 1998!
A lot has happined since then (just think, in 1998 the fastest x86 CPU was the Pentium II at 450 MHz). If you look further down the list, the next oldest machine is a Cray at number 35. Very cool that Blue Mountain is still a pretty impressive performer over three years later (an eternity by computer terms).
Anyone remember how in the game Populous (I forget which platform, maybe SNES) there was a computer tileset and instead of castles, the highest level of structure was a Cray? Anyone happen to know the model (if you could tell from the graphic)
Networks exist irrespective of the data that flows through them, a cluster is defined by that very data.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
It does list some of them, they're just not classified under "Cracking International Terrorists' PGP Keys". There are a few under "Classified", and "Energy Research" seems to need an awful lot of computers....
a beowolf cluster of those...
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
I dunno about the CM-5, but the lights on the CM-2 (the crazy 4D cube shaped one) visualized the load on each processor in the machine. You could tell at a glance how well your app was utilizing all those CPUs...
This is true, I run LinuxPPC and Mac OS 9.1 and OS X and Linux crashes more then the other two on my G4! I can't see why so many people like Linux, except maybe because it's "free"? I've used IRIX and Solarus quite a bit and they dont crash like Linux. OS X has never crashed on me either.
Sigh...it was a joke.
I probably shouldn't have bothered.
Tim
PS. Those <sarcasm> tags are looking pretty good about now... :-)
i was positive Andromeda was gonna sweep this one for a record 17 billion'th time!
What I want to know is what supercomputer wins the award for congeniality?
This is nothing. If you want to deal with real power, you've got to forget the Cray computers, and instead go with my aunt's Cajun Crawfish! Hot time in the city tonight!
Ye olde 8086 is much like the cannonical 1 cycle = 1 instruction CPU that you described. Since the minimum number of trasistors needed to execute an instruction is pretty much fixed (but occaisionally somebody somewhere figures out a way to reduce the number by a few), and the amount of time it takes for the signals to pass through a sequence of transistors is basically fixed (although better materials and smaller transistors can improve this), a 1 cycle = 1 instruction really just isn't capable of running at a high clock speed (Mhz).
There are several ways to improve speed. The direction Intel went with their chips (and many other vendors as well) is pipelining. Pipelining is when you take that fixed number of transistors and break it into groups based on when they do their work. A 2-stage pipeline is one where the instruction logic is separated into two steps. A 3-stage pipeline is three steps, and so on. A sequence of four instructions in a 3-stage pipeline executes like this:
1) The instruction is loaded and the first stage is executed in one clock cycle
2) The next instruction is loaded and it is executed in the first stage while the the first instruction is executed in the second stage (one clock cycle)
3) The third instruction executes in the first stage, the second instruction executes in the second stage, and the first instruction executes in the third stage (one clock cycle)
4) The fourth instruction executes in the first stage, the third instruction executes in the second stage, and the second instruction executes in the third stage (one clock cycle)
5) The fourth instruction executes in the second stage and the third instruction executes in the third stage (one clock cycle)
6) The fourth instrction executes in the third stage (one clock cycle)
So, as you can see, once the pipeline is filled, one instruction completes every clock cycle, but each instruction takes three cycles to complete. Neat trick, eh? There are a lot of hairy details to take care of between stages, and pipelined processors can get very complicated very fast, particularly if you're trying to implement an instruction set that wasn't designed for pipelined architechture (i.e. x86 instruction set).
Cray went a different way. A Cray process is uses vector instructions to process a lot of data in one instruction. Compare this to the pipeline where multiple instructions are in progess during any single clock cycle. A vector processor, on the other hand, has large sets of registers which are referenced as a vector and has instructions that can fill an entire vector from a particular chunk of memory, add two vectors and store the results in a third, multiply, divide, negate, whatever, a vector at a time. And then of course there is an instruction to store the contents of a vector into a particular chunk of memory.
Pipelining has the marketing advantage that if you make your pipeline long enough (the Pentium 4 is a 20-stage pipeline) then the stages take less time to execute and you can bump up the clock speed.
Vector architechture does not have this marketing advantage, but they are historically superior for certain applications and data sets (like weather modeling meteorological data).
I like to play children's songs in minor keys.
"We're all sons of bitches now." --J. Robert Oppenheimer
Not knowing alot about Beowulf, I looked at the site pointed to by the link in the base article and would like to point out that Digital (DEC) had this capacity in the OpenVMS cluster available as early as 1984. By 1994 when Beowulf was started it was possible to build a cluster of 32 nodes with 8 processors per node. all clustered. Current alpha technology allows a 32 way cluster in a box!! x 32 systems. Now while it may not be "open" in the linux sense of the word it is faster and the clustering technology is proven. As a point of history DEC also had an MPP box with 64 processors which died in advanced development in the early 80's.
what I'm sure he ment to say was for SETI, where I seem to recal that MIPS chips blew away anything intel. At least last time I looked (which was a while ago)
AARRRGH!
Heretic! All non-scientific use of this much computational power is like wasting food or keeping all your watertaps open day and night. Costs money and is completely useless.
...I can imagine running a Beowulf cluster on a few thousand emulators in one of "those suckers"! SCNR...
Actually the Cray at #11 is the T3 which is not as fast as the SV1. This list seems to be not a list of fastest per se but a list of ones working in production environments. Since I don't see the SV1 on the list I don't know whether this is a new rollout or one that is in production in uncredited environments......
Hey, you think your house is cool?
These machines are ranked by PEAK theoretical speed. The top machines each have thousands of processors, so even if the processors which make them up are much slower, they make up for the difference in sheer numbers.
Science, like Nature, must also be tamed, with a view turned towards its preservation.
we all know the only reason the SV1 actually won 'best supercomputer' is because it's watercooled. I mean come on... if it ain't watercooled, it ain't a super computer.
You are joking right? Your either terribly funny,
or horribly stupid.
With Mac zealots sometimes you just can't tell.
Yes, but will yer Mac continue to outperform the Cray at running the Gimp?
Darn it, now I'm going to have to go try this out and see...
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
"CPU speed is not relevant anymore" You mean it once was?
but isn't that comment very relavent. the article is talking about a super-computer clas computers, and a baewolf cluster is concidered just that. claiming its superiority over other things may be a bit zealous though, its not the best, it is afordable for you and me though... i hope to someday say that i run a supercomputer in my basement, "sure, i'll let you see it... can yours do this".
Shhh... don't convince upper management that cache is for losers. I don't need to be looking for another job. :/
BTW, Real Beer is made here too. Leinekugel's Honey Weiss and Red. Good stuff.
As for system size, the 512p limit is real. With only one exception so far (NASA Ames), the largest O3000 you can get is 512p. There's a special mode that you can run in where you sacrifice half the memory capability per node to get twice as many nodes and hence a 1024p system, which is what NASA has. There is a press release on that someplace at NASA Ames and SGI but I forget where. The "special" 2048 is actually a pseudo shared memory cluster, probably using an interconnect similar to (but a lot faster than) Myrinet or using something like HIPPI. This is actually what Blue Mountain is.
As for the Linux boxes, I worked with some prototype hardware based on the Origin 3000 series "chipset" with Itaniums. It was pretty cool stuff (I was working on porting the system partitioning software from Irix to Linux). We have also run an Origin 2000 version of Linux/MIPS on a 128p system.
Go Badgers! -- #include "std/disclaimer.h"
Little known fact: that LCD is driven by a 486 on a PC motherboard. I've seen DOOM for DOS running on it.
Yup, got one on the floor above me at work.
Can someone tell me what the difference between a cluster and a network is? Speed? Proximity? Who defines it?
Since Cray has just as much claim to being a Seattle company as Microsoft does, why not just dump your Win box and get a Cray?
...
Now that will stick it to Bill G and help the local economy at the same time
Will in Seattle
What's worst, few Europeans shot dead by awkward criminals once in a decade, or million rednecks shoting at each other daily and kids rampage in schools?
Face it you silly Americans, keeping a gun handy under your pillow won't help you against military missils and corrupted congressmen. Burn that obsolete constitution already.
yeah the t3e did/does use Alpha chips but with muchos custom hardware around them (streams etc)
r
Then, when everyone else is at the same priority, you look at the top-list, track down other people who are using CPU time on the shared system and go around the campus telling these people that they have to renice their projects to a lower priority because YOUR project is so much more important.
Oh yeah, I know your type.
Only if you promise not to render any cutesy CG characters with it.
"natural right"? What's a "natural right"? How is a right, any right, "natural"?
Go away until you learn some basic philosophy, troll. I would suggest Locke as a good starting place for answering this question.
And, by the way, the whole point of the second amendment was that citizens would be able to protect themselves from a corrupt government--much like happened during the American Revolution. Calling for open and accountable government is admirable--but power corrupts. Period.
Most sexy belongs to the Thinking Machines CM-5 "Blinking Machines":
g es/CM5_lg.jpg
_ mountain.jpg
(Nice big CM5)
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/MetaComp/Ima
Makes the SGI Origins (see below) look like freakshows:
(128 CPU Origin 2000)
http://gepard.cyf-kr.edu.pl/GRIZZLY/or2.jpg
(A cluster of [many] 128 CPU O2K's)
http://www.ccic.gov/pubs/blue00/local_images/blue
(A 256 CPU O3K, a 16 CPU O2K, and some RAIDs)
http://www.cines.fr/images/IRISetMINERVE2.jpg
Real computers are designed in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin. Real computers have high-speed interleaved main memory, and lots of it. Cache is for losers who can't afford a real memory system.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Vector registers are an important part of Cray architecture, but where the machines really shine for scientific computing is memory bandwidth. The SV-1 (and all it's immediate predecessors - the C90, T90, YMP, etc...) have memory arranged in banks. If you program carefully, you can yank a whole vector from memory at a time, WITHOUT having to wait for a memory refresh. That said, commodity processors are catching up by just being damn fast!
As fun as it is to try to tie everything to Beowulf clusters, it's not applicable and not necessary to bring up with every post. FWIW, not all tasks lend themselves well to being done in a distributed environment. Of course, that's been mentioned a few thousand times here before, so I won't waste my breath.
Simulating nuclear weapons also falls under "energy research". And it also most certainly takes that kind of computing power. Just thought you should know.
But then again, I could be wrong.
We had a company party yesterday. I had fun from the start but from the point I became acquainted with Mr. Jameson I can't remember anything.
I just woke up in my own bed in my suit. The suit is crumbled and has some yellow stains in its front. No idea what those are.
My mouth tastes like a bunch of monkies shat in it last night, but what worries me the most is that I really don't remember a thing about the party or what happened after it. How the hell did I get home? Did I punch the boss? Did I make indencent proposals to a female co-worker? Am I to expect a sexual harassment suit on Monday? Oh shit...
Furthermore, the larger configurations are a sort of super beowulf cluster!
People who use Cray couldn't care less about something as trivial as rendering images.
Try simulating weather or doing ab initio calculations with 2000 transition metal atom clusters.
It's because The Man (The Cray Man) is holding us back...let's stick it to The Man, clock speed for life! Flops can go and shove it!!! PS my bus can do 1.3 gigabytes! It just takes a while.... --Jubedgy
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis hebes
They pretty much looked like all the other big iron in the room. Gone was tht distinctive C-shaped tower. So was the need to hire a plumber to help install the water or freon based cooling system.
Granted, these big guys are impressive, but they've lost that certain "soi de vie" (sp?) that once distingiuished them from the other iron in the room.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Guess why linux would crash on a Mac? Because apple never open their hardware documentation!
So don't go complaining. go ahead and use OSX or if you are really the clueless asshole that you are use 9.1 till the ends of day and suffer the problems of a outdated OS.
... now that alpha arch has been sold... http://www.cray.com/products/systems/supercluster/
The G4 is also a vector CPU by the way, or ay least it has a vector unit (AltiVec). And of course the number one super-computer (IBM) uses PowerPC processors... ;)
But seriously, a lot of scientist use Macs ... including the place that sequesncd the human genome
That's a lot of GFLOPS :-), and a LOT of Ram.
Im not an expert in CPU's but i've picked up a few things that maybe helps you.
There are several ways of doing a CPU fast. You can (the very popular way) increase the clock frequency, thus doing more operations per second. One hertz equals one "cpu instruction" (sometimes they takes more then one, depending on what kind they are). This is the popular way to make a CPU sellable, unexperienced PC buyers sometimes simply focuses on "How many MHZ does this harddrive has ?" :-)
The second way is closely connected to this, simply make more then one instruction per each clock frequency. This is working in parallell, a more complicated solution that helps in some types of operations, but not others. Some problems are not good for parallelizing.
A CPU has something called a branch, [some have more then one, ie parallell processing] you can compare it to an assembly line in a modern factory. More pipes = parallell computing. For some reason, a short pipe [fewer operations until done] gives faster execution but lower clock frequencys, maybe because of heat or something. Could anyone fill me in here ? Anyhow, a cpu like the G4 [motorola/apple] has a rather short pipe, 4 or 5 steps. The P4 [intel] has a rather long one, 20 or so. This is why a P4 doesnt reach the same MHZ as the P4, but still can compete in raw computing power.
You can also increase performance in a CPU by making special instruction sets the programmer can call, and then optimize those instruction sets. The Pentium++ for example, is a rather simple processor wrapped among a huge amount of addon instruction sets, like MMX, SSE, SSE2 (and many many more) etc. The wrapper hardware-compiles these advanced CPU-calls into the basic instructions the core CPU actually can understand.
Hope I clearified somethings, and if I missed something or got something wrong, please correct me :-)
Probable impossibilities are to be preferred to improbable possibilities.
Aristotele
>because the government took away
>their natural right to self-defence
"natural right"? What's a "natural right"? How is a right, any right, "natural"? How is access to a gun a "natural right"? Were we all deprived of our "natural rights" until the gun was invented? Or is access to a gun a specific example of a more generalised and technology-neutral "natural right"? I assume you mean the latter, and that this more generalised "natural right" is the right to self-defence - in the broadest sense (not tied to any particular technology, such as the gun).
Isn't the right to SAFETY more important than the right to self-defense? After all, if we have SAFETY we don't need access to high tech weapons, such as the gun.
Wouldn't SAFETY be best served by only letting the police and military have legal guns? Of course, we would need to ensure our safety from the police and military via open and accountable government.
So in the end, as always, it's not about guns or the right to self-defence. It's about the kind of government we have - and the way we govern ourselves.
More to say, but outta time.
Great Your CPU has 512Meg of Memory cache you simply rocks
Those Nazi-supporting IBM folk are at it again. Disgraceful.
...but has Linux been ported over to this yet?
Great explanation! Much more clear than the one I was going to give :)
Vector units are extraordinarily fast at certain tasks. I work with a custom DSP that uses a vector processor to do FIR filtering, and the amount of processing it does is mind blowing. We clock it at somewhere between 80-120 MHz (depending on application), and at the top end of that range it gets nearly a billion ops per second.
Now, this does come with some drawbacks. First of all, it requires a tremendous amount of silicon to do properly, making development extremely expensive. Not to mention, that with all that logic running simultaneously, power consumption can become an issue as well. Secondly, it is a royal ain in the ass to program (or write a compiler for). When you have 8 operations per instruction word, making efficient use of that processing power involves writing some ugly, ugly code.
Tim
at least theres one server (www.cray.com) that won't get slashdotted.
There's a 50ish lady that works at Cray, named Dorothy. I met her at this years Rockfest, in Cadott, WI., which is about 20mi north of Chippewa Falls. She was wearing a Cray tshirt, which of course caught my eye right away. I ended up making friends with her and getting a phone number and contect person for Cray to get my very own Cray tshirt. We talked about how SGI is sucking the life out of everything around it and I found out Cray is back out on it's own. So, it appears that Cray is going to survive SGI after all, and will still be building those insanely fast machines they're known for.
--- Think of it as evolution in action ---
It is flamebait, because it is partial and in places just plain wrong.
If I still had mod access I would mod you down aswell for being offtopic.
Some nitpicks: 512 processors is the "off-the-shelf" limit for the Origin series, but I know of special installations with as many as 2048. And there are probably some differences in the Irix kernel for the workstations and for supercomputers. I don't know the specifics, but possibly the two configurations of Irix are "the same" in much the same sense that Linux and Hurd are.
Speaking of Linux, we will soon see Origin systems with Itanium chips in place of MIPS. (They may not be called "Origin", but most of the architecture will be the same.) Since it makes no sense to port the Irix kernel to the Itanium, these boxes will run Linux. Which is why SGI is open-sourcing XFS and other products associated with IRIX.
What the heck do you think "Government" Installation Sites for "Classified" Areas of Installation are? There are two of those in the top twenty alone.
Posting as AC because I work for a "Government" Contractor.
While everyone will be quick to point out the nuclear applications, "Energy research" also includes a lot of complex modeling for fossil fuels. They do a lot of number crunching on undersea oil/gas deposits and modelling said deposits to determine the best way to get at the fuels.
-Chris
Clock speed really doesnt count. Its an X86 thing. Sure, you can hit 1.6ghz on your P3 machine, but can you do 1.3 gigabytes (not bits) across the bus? A 8 year old SGI Challenge L can. Can your P3 outrun a MIPS 195mhz R10K on distnet? No, it cant. Clock speed is a marketing thing. Not a performance thing. If you really believe your lil P3 clock speed can compare... then why is that 300mhz Cray SV1 called a supercomputer and your P3 isnt? X86 is not the answer, its the question. Check into alternative architectures. You may be very pleasantly surprised.
Most of the "truths" are easily refuted, but I think more importantly, this whole thread is offtopic.
Save it for another time, guys, m-Kay?
Dude, he was joking you anonymous coward!
--AC
You are totally right. Beowulf is a fad just like Linux, you were able to cluster long before Beowulf and you'll be able to cluster long after it.
Crays (except possibly the CS6400, the machine the Sun E10k is based on), sort of use a 64bit word. I say sort of because it holds a 64bit floating point or integer number, but it stores it in up to 80bits, depending on machine. It uses the extra space for error correction.
So, an 8megawork cray is equivalent to a 64megabyte PC (memory wise that is), except it really has 80 megs.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
Unless the situation has changed since I heard this, Cray is the only company where you can buy supercomputers commercially - that is, "off the shelf".
Customer: I want the big red one on page 42
Cray Salesperson: Cool choice! We'll start delivering it next week at noon...
Other machines may be faster, but they're as rare as hens teeth.
This has been common knowledge in the world of supercomputing for decades. In a multiprocessor architecture the speed of an individual processor is not that important. What's important is that the processors can efficiently access the memory, mass storage and can rapidly communicate with the other processors.
If I were buying a new computer now I'd opt for a dual processor setup (possibly two 650 MHz P-III CPUs or something else in the same MHz range) over a single, blazingly fast CPU that chokes on the sluggish memory bus.
There's an interesting bit in the Cray FAQ (which is interesting in its own right) about the display panel on the T3d being a Powerbook.
Plenty of space to store all Cray supercomputers you ever wanted.
You have blasphemied against Linux. Prepare to be flamed by all of Slashdot.
If guns are banned only criminals will have them. I just wonder how many people have to end up dead before you Europeans learn...
I guess it just goes to show how pathetic Los Alamos National Laboratory and friends really are. They act like smart arses with their big iron mastodonts, but today we realize how amazing is 8MB memory. *roll eyes*
Before i write this i want to say why. Because people like you guys need to think beyond your little worlds.
EXT2 doesn't lose data like a firehose spray water. It's good enough for alot of people. And most people avoid at all cost the sort of total power failure that will be bad for EXT2.
The reason why linux is getting support from so many people and companies is because, unlike mr mundie's suggestion, of the GPL.
Look at FreeBSD or other "free" BSDs. Why don't IBM and others support this great OS? Because it's not under the GPL. This is easy to understand actually if you take a step back and think.
Take exmple "JSF" for linux or "XFS" both are open source projects. JSF is actually under the GPL. Why would ibm do that? Well really for ibm and most other companies they just don't make enough from selling their own UNIX. Open source makes it possible for IBM and SGI and others to take advantage of the resources of their competitors. Werid eh? IBM works on the linux kernel and so does SGI and both gets something out of it but neither has to pay the full cost of developing the kernel.
But the real strength as so many have pointed out is that the GPL specifically makes it practical for companies like IBM to share it's technology. They can have no fear that people will use their technology aganist them by offering it as their own. Sure they can use it in their own OS and charge for the OS but the OS will have to be open source. Or else they will still have to pay for developers.
What is also very good for computer firms is the the development of most Linux projects is a very open proccess. With the likes of FreeBSD you have to work your way into the organization before you can contribute to the core code. Sure you can spin off your own. But again you don't get the community support and you have to foot the whole bill yourself.
At the bottom of it all marketing is very important. Linux markets well. It has media attention. It attracts the University students in CS program who will come out to the work in the real world some day. It supports flashy multimedia... in otherwords linux is more impersonating. It's the like the geeky guy who is nice and friendly, very helpful but quiet who works hard but can't get a date the contrasting with the fashy guy who's not so nice, loud and parties a lot but gets all the girls. It's the world what can i say?
"Milky Way Galaxy named Best Galaxy of 2001"
Because their 500mhz and gigahertz machines from the early and mid 90s didn't sell.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
just one of these?
Um. no. I also run Linux on an older PPC machine, a clone actually. That's about as documented as you can get. It's still a buggy mess. I also run Linux (and Be OS) on a x86 box.. it's not any different! OS X in a few short months is already more stable then Linux. I only use 9.1 to make 60K a year, so until the apps I use are writen for OS X, then that's fine with me. 9.1 hardly crashes on me anyway.. I can go weeks with out an app quiting or locking up. Can't say that about Linux where the WindowServer crashes so bad you have to reboot the box! You have to call me an asshole because you feel I'm attacking you, even though you didn't write Linux and you know it's overhyped crap! It's a helpless feeling, isn't it. You don't want to use M$ crap and somehow Apple isn't geek enough. OS X is NeXT/OpenStep, and that's not a bad thing at all...
300 MHz is somewhat impressive, and may remain for many years, unless you're one of those Windows loonies who feel the need to buy the latest Intel toys every 3 months.
I was playing Remedy Entertainment's game Max Payne the other day and happened across four Cray supercomputers inside the evil villains' skyscraper. I thought this was all fine and dandy. I just watched that I didn't hit them with any stray gunfire. But I couldn't find any way out of the room until I realized that those crazy Finns at Remedy wanted me to BLOW UP FOUR CRAYS!? There's less than a thousand of them in the world. I should've left the game, but I whimpered like a baby while I stood above the beautiful machinery and launched a grenade. I guess this is what they call drama. Wacky Finns!
Amen!
Trying to start my own branch of the Lienie Lodge here in Kansas City.
-Freed
"Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love." -Turkish Proverb
In an ordinary PC, you can use one CPU clocked really fast, but you're limited by the speed of the I/O bus and memory bus. This is where cache comes in, as small amounts of data and code can be held in extremely fast memory "close" to the CPU.
In a supercomputer like this, you use lots of slower processors, which aren't necessarily limited by bandwidth, but can individually get enough work done.
Imagine, if you will, 35 people in Edinburgh, who need to get to Glasgow, some 50 miles away.
Would it be quicker to transport them in a 160mph Porsche Boxster, one at a time, or take them in 5 Volvo estates?
Hey, thanks for the info! That's really cool! :)
That's an interesting list. p It doesn't list any of the NSA monsters...
You are abusing the Anonymous login. The karma for user Anonymous will go into the heavy negatives because of this post.
):
If your app requires lots of vector crunching, the SV1 is one hellofa machine that'll keep you more than happy. The specs (mentioned above) are staggering... up to 1 TB of RAM, up to 1229 CPUs, air and/or water cooled.
However, it's not alone. There are some other pretty mighty machines out there. The NEC SX-5 has faster RAM and more powerful vector CPUs than the SV1, but does not scale as large. The SGI Origin 3000 series is not vector, but rather a of (somewhat) traditional CPU design. It's available with up to 512 CPUs and 1 TB of RAM. Unlike both the SV1 and SX-5, the Origin can be ordered with graphics (which turns it into an Onyx).
Then, there's the upcoming Cray SV2, which will be a combination of massive parallel & vector processing. Up to several thousand CPUs and a staggering RAM thruput of 250 GB/sec per bank!! (The Origin 3000 mentioned above has a total system bandwidth of 716 GB/sec.... but that's the entire machine. The SV2 will have more than that with just three banks of RAM alone).
Some of these machines are single image systems (in the case of the Origin 3000, SX-5 and >33 CPU SV1)... meaning they are one single machine, not a cluster. Most run very specific OSes made just for their hardware, with the possible exception of the Origin. SGI's big Origin and Onyx 3000 machines run IRIX 6.5, the same OS that runs on a $150 e-bay special SGI Indy workstation. Kinda cool. The compilers and math libraries are also heavily tuned and generally come with lots of example code and performance tips. When my university purchased a 96 CPU Origin 2000 a few years ago, SGI included a *box* of binders and CDs from some past performance computing seminars they had held. Our university still holds a support contract for the Origin, and thus we're still getting significant compiler and library updates.
Sort of belittles dual bank PC2600 DDR-SDRAM (2x 2.6 Gigabyte/sec = 5.2 Gigabyte/sec) and Myrinet (1 Gigabit/sec = 125 Megabyte/sec interconnect), doesn't it.
Of course... a 16 node x86 cluster doesn't cost $500K - $50M either...
Your reply implies the following towards the end but wasn't clear. Pipelines aren't automatically flushed as you first imply. A CPU has to decide which fork to take when it loads instructions after the branch is read into the pipeline. Only if the code takes the branch that's not already in the pipeline does the CPU discard the pipeline's contents.
But the GFLOP rate is misleading too. The rate given is usually PEAK GFLOP rate, which assumes 100% vectorization and 100% parallelization. None of this can be achieved in a real world problem.
The Cray is known for coming as close as possible to the peak GFLOP rate, with the least programming effort on the part of the user. A typical research scientist or graduate student can port his problem to the Cray and get most of the potential speedup from vectorization and parallelization. Cray has very efficient automatic vectorizing and parallelizing compilers. A professional programmer can get some additional speedup by coding critical subroutines in assembler, but this is only really needed for production programs.
Many of Cray's competitors fall down badly when their computers run real world problems. Some do not come even close to the claimed peak GFLOP rate. Be careful, in particular, when looking at those peak GFLOP rates for budget priced massively parallel computers. No problem parallelizes perfectly and many of these massively parallel machines do not have the memory bandwidth of the Cray. Since parallel processing is acomplished using all kind of message passing between processors, the low memory bandwidth of the cheap machines really punishes them. If the message passing is accomplished through a hard disk file, just forget about it!
Err, Summit from Minnesota is significantly better than the watery lagers of Chippewa Falls (not to mention half of it comes from Milwaukee), although it wouldn't be the first time that cheeseheads have been in denial of the fact that Minnesotans Do It Better©. =)
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E2 IN2 IE?
I wonder how many votes HAL received?
Assuming you mean distributed.net, you are incorrect.
MIPS processors do not implement the bitrotate instruction in hardware that x86 does, that RC5 cracking relies so heavily on. We benchmarked a 4 processor Origin 2000 with MIPS chips running at 300Mhz and it came out around a celeron in keyrate even using all 4 processors.
So, while your point is correct, using distributed.net as an example with MIPS processors is not a good idea.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I'm sorry to break it to all of you, but the Cray SV1 is just another example of the "Performance Myth." My G4, at only 450 MHz, can outperform any Cray model at PhotoShop. Allow me to demonstrate rendering this 200MB graphic image. The G4 renders it in only 20 seconds, while the Cray fails entirely!
Sorry, Cray. I'm not buying.
I bet that supercomputer would be a whole lot more powerful if it were running Mac OS X.
nuclear weapons
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Excuse me, but haven't they considered Beowulf clusters? I think they are better in both scalability and price. Even some clusters managed to rank among 100 fastest computers.
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Error 500: Internal sig error
If you put Linux next to some other operating systems out there for a cost comparison, the conclusions are devastating for Linux.
Linux costs not only more because of the frequent updates which require new cdrom's to be bought if you don't have a high speed Internet connection.
Another factor in Linux cost is its maintenance. Linux requires a *lot* of maintenance, work doable only by the relatively few high-paid Linux administrators that put themselves - of course willingly - at a great place in the market. Linux seems to be needing maintenance continuously.
Add to this the cost of loss of data. Linux' native file system, EXT2FS, is known to lose data like a firehose loses water, when the file system isn't unmounted properly. Other unix file systems are much more tolerant towards unexpected crashes. An example is the FreeBSD file system, which with soft updates enabled, performance-wise blows EXT2FS out of the water, and doesn't have the negative drawback of extreme data loss in case of a system breakdown.
Factor in also the fact that crashes happen much more often on Linux than on other unices. On other unices, crashes usually are caused by external sources like power outages. Crashes in Linux are a regular thing, and nobody seems to know what causes them, internally.
The steep learning curve compared to about any other operating system out there is a major factor in Linux' cost. The system is a mix of features from all kinds of unices, but not one of them is implemented right. A Linux user has to live with badly coded tools which have low performance, mangle data seemingly at random and are not in line with their specification. On top of that a lot of them spit out the most childish and unprofessional messages, indicating that they were created by 14-year olds with too much time, no talent and a bad attitude.
I can go on and on and on, but the message is clear. In this world, there is no place for Linux. It's not an option for any one who seeks a professional OS with high performance, scalability, stability, adherence to standards, etc. The best place it should ever reach is the toy store, and even that would be flattering.
That's fucking racist! IBM names their fastest computer "White Power"?!! I'm calling for a boycott immediately!
300 MHz? That seems somewhat unimpressive... would someone mind educating me? :o
BBC World Click Online's David Jamieson wrote: Cray supercomputers are named after their quit and unassuming American inventor Seymour cray. He is more an innovator than inventor. He did not invent the computer, didn't he? Further David Jamieson wrote: To many scientists, he is the Thomas Edison of supercomputing industry. Edison only came up with direct current he didn't know alternating current? Electricity has always been a growth industry for pimps, swindlers and those of light conscience. Thomas Edison - beloved marketer of direct current - would throw dead animals over the fence of Nicolai Tesla's alternating current power plants and tell local newspapers that Tesla's AC was dangerous and unreliable. Of course, it wasn't - this computer and everything else runs on AC - but Tesla's AC power plants still went out of business. Edison bought the brilliant Polish -born scientist's AC patent and Tesla died penniless. God bless America.
A related site, which I find a bit more interesting, is the clusters database. Particularly noteworthy are three PC clusters that cross the teraflops line (peak performance, mind you, but still impressive).
What I found interesting is that they say the top four computers are at .gov research facilities, doing "energy research" (90 MPG engines? Cold Fusion? heh), and others are with the army and air force. Kind of makes you wonder what is more sensitive than weapons research that earns the "classified" title.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
Having done something like this recently, I can say the best way to do this is to give them 200 quid, tell them to go to the railway station, and then you hire a private car for yourself.
Yuo're forgetting something fairly fundamental here. For the most part, you would never let 160 people into your car, particularly people from Edinburgh.
Hope that clears things up. Let me know if you have any other computer science problems you need solved.
300MHz for the Cray may not seem much, but I bet if you ran some real-world benchmarks, like Photoshop filters, you'd find it was actually equivalent to an 800MHz Pentium, or perhaps even faster. Don't believe Intel's hype about MHz speeds!
Anyone have Photoshop for the Cray? Doesn't it come as part of the SPECmark suite now?
Tim
Ye olde 8086 is much like the cannonical 1 cycle = 1 instruction CPU that you described. Since the minimum number of trasistors needed to execute an instruction is pretty much fixed (but occaisionally somebody somewhere figures out a way to reduce the number by a few), and the amount of time it takes for the signals to pass through a sequence of transistors is basically fixed (although better materials and smaller transistors can improve this), a 1 cycle = 1 instruction really just isn't capable of running at a high clock speed (Mhz).
8086 is *far* from being clock cycle per instruction design. The fastest instructions in it take 3 cycles (like NOP or register to register ADD). Instructions with complex effective address calculations take even longer. For example MOV (MOV = load/store instruction in x86 'architecture') immediate (immediate = the data is supplied in the instruction) to memory with base + index + displacement addressing takes massive *22* clock cycles. For comparison, in more modern architectures (anything since 486), it often takes just 1 or 2 effective clock cycles in ideal conditions.
<sarcasm>Only 300 Mhz? And so what if it can get 2.4 GFLOPS per processor... What are GFLOPS? Why aren't these machines as fast as pentium pro chips? I saw it has 192 processors... it better. So this machine has the processing power of 27 or 28 of the new Pentium processors that run at 2.1 GHZ.... Hardly seems worth it. I bet this Cray system probably ships with 5400 RPM disk drives too. Probably all about 800 MB. I don't think I will be buying one of these any time soon. And the darn thing is round? Probably stole some of the designers from Apple. </sarcasm>
I had a flame... but she had a fire.
But I find it frustrating to see this overclock'd circuits unleashed just for science. It may make a decent and nice Quake server though
I have to wait almost all day for it.
Have you been to the Pacific Northwest? Go into any bar/tavern in Washington or Oregon and you will find dozens of excellent local ales, pilseners, stouts, etc.
Some of the breweries (each of which has several different beers to choose from): Red Hook, Deschutes, Full Sail, Hale's, Pyramid, Bridgeport, Widmer, McMenamins, Mac & Jack's, Thomas Kemper, and those are just the major ones I can think of off of the top of my head.
It is truly mind-boggling the number of excellent beers you can have that are all brewed in Washington or Oregon, not to mention Idaho, British Columbia and Northern California.
Now keep in mind that the J90/SV1 is Cray's "budget" line...The SV2 (due out next year) is supposed to be a successor to both the T90 AND the T3E (its both vector and Mass Parallel).
I'm curious to see what happens with the Tera multithreading systems as well. The first few years I imagine they will just be bought as computing research machines. (so that people can see what they do)
Check out SARA: TERAS' is a 1024-CPU system consisting of two 512-CPU SGI Origin 3800 systems. This machine has a peak performance of 1 TFlops (1012 floating point operations) per second. The machine will be fitted with 500MHz R14000 CPUs organized in 256 4-CPU nodes and will possess 1 TByte of memory in total. 10 TByte of on-line storage and 100 TByte near-line StorageTek storage will be available. 'TERAS' will consist of 44 racks, 32 racks containing CPUs and routers, 8 I/O racks and 4 racks containing disks. :)
(And nopes it's not listed in top500 yet
For more closeup pictures see: http://unfix.org/news/sara/
Ain't it sweeeeeeeeeeet?
http://unfix.org
Meaning of course him.
Visit here to view 500 fastest computers in the world as of June 2001. Cray is actually number 11. IBM ASCI White SP Power 3 is the king.
It's interesting to note that a beowulf cluster is also there (#42)
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Error 500: Internal sig error
If its anything like the older Crays (SV1 stands for "scalable vector", iirc its sort of a mix of vector and traditional CPUs).. then it gets its speed from the vectorized nature of the cpu and more importantly, the problem at hand.
:)
:) the cray's amazing speed only works in situations where the problem can be expressed in vector instructions, i.e. do the same thing to a fuckload of data in such a way that the cray's hardware can pipeline it efficiently..
i was told in a CS course that the arch of the cray vector units is basically the same as the cray 1... the speeds have changed, the process has changed, the external peices have gotten much faster.. but at the core, the cray vector machines are very fast at the following type of thing:
given a vector of a given length
do foo to every element in that vector
_very_ efficiently
to see how this operates a bit better, consider how a normal cpu might do the following
for i = 1 to 64
begin
blah[i] = blah[i] + 1
end
that would end up getting compiled perhaps into something like this on a traditional cpu:
loop:
load blah[i]
increment blah[i]
save blah[i]
increment i
if i 64, goto loop
what we're seeing is that for 1 element, we do a load, an ALU op, a store, an ALU op, and a conditional branch.
conditional branches fuck cpus. badly. having load stores inside inner loops, fucks cpus badly.
to see why, you need to understand pipelining, but basically i'll make it short and easy: the instruction cache of a cpu is always stuffing the pipeline with its "guess" of what instructions should be... and its not until several of those 1.4ghz clock cycles later that you even know if you've got the right instruction... if you do, great.. if you dont, you're fucked and you flush the pipeline and start over.
conditional branches fuck this all to hell because without optimization, you've got a 50% chance of filling your pipeline with the wrong instructions.. so on a p4 with a 20+ stage pipeline you're talking about throwing away some sizable portion of those instructions... and then refilling them... now, branch predition realy helps this a lot, but conditional branches are just one problem... the load/store units of cpus also typically introduce huge pipeline delays... i.e. you need to load blah[i] but that takes 2 or 3 cycles (even from cache!! dont even think about it if you need to go to main memory) so any instructions which use blah[i] must be scheduled at least 2-3 clock cycles aftewrads...
so without keen optimization and ideal software loads, suddenly your 1.4ghz chip is stalling 2-3 instructions all the time.. and its only running like a 400mhz proc
so, to make traditional cpus fast, pipelineing and multiple EUs have been added. these have drawbacks (and i'velisted some of pipelinings above).
the "vector" approach is totally different. you actually have "vector" registers, and "vector instructions". the machine actually sets up "virtual" pipelines for you. so on a vector machine, the scenario above would be more like:
vectorsize=64
xv = xv + 1
(assuming xv is the vector register with your 64 elements in it)
what the cray hardware does is hooks up the peices of its cpu in a virtual pipeline that does something like this:
foreach element of vx
load
inc
save
notice that the foreach construct looks like a loop, but its not realy, its pipelined, so what actually gets sent through looks like this
load i
inc i, load i+ 1
save i, inc i + 1, load i + 2
save i+1, inc i + 2, load i + 3
save i + 2, inc i + 3, load i + 4
save i + 3, inc i + 4, load i + 5
etc etc etc
except for fill and drain, the load, inc, and save hardware units are always perfectly utilized. there is no branching or conditional logic involved.
the example i've chosen is very trivial, and may be subject to huge factual or conceptual mistakes
there are lots of interesting problems that the cray did _not_ handle well.. but for what its worth, the vector processors in the cray 1 aren't significantly different in operation and instruction set than the SV1 of today.. by many measures, cray "got it right" originally. the SV1 of today might use a normal BGA packaging on a CMOS based process, (the cray1 used discrete ECL logic and point to point wiring - all strung together by little old minnesotan women)
also the original cray 1 ran at either 100 or 80mhz, could take 32mb of ram.... i.e. for the 1970s it was faster than any desktop workstation until the mid 90s...
note that the top500 list crays are usually the T3Es.. which are a totally different beast than the vector processor.. a T3E is just a bunch of alpha CPUs on a very fast interconnect.. sort of like a "custom cluster in a box".
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
I ran across a few more... too bad the thing is so goofy looking (though, I have to admit, the old cube logo and Origin name is much cooler than the new "sgi 2800" name and logo).
r igin2000.JPG
r igin2000Moniter.JPG
(Two *big* Origin 2000s)
http://w3.physics.uiuc.edu/~wilkens/Images/NCSA/O
(The neat O2K LCD... too bad O3K doesn't have that)
http://w3.physics.uiuc.edu/~wilkens/Images/NCSA/O
(The O2K "boxes")
http://www.unite.nl/nieuws/algemeen/levering.html
Each stage in the pipeline lets the hardware work on the instruction a bit, to setup register access and whatnot. Quite a few of the steps in modern x86 processors are 'unwrapping' the CISC instruction and turning it into RISC. (This is a bit simplified). The more steps there are, the shorter (less time) each step can be, letting the clock rate go up. Fewer steps means (generally) that each step needs more time, therefor limiting clock speed.
Long pipelines have one drawback, though. Assume there's one instruction currently being executed. The next one, in memory, will be in the stage that's one back. The next instruction after that will be in the stage before THAT, and so on. This works most of the time, where you have many sequential steps in a row. However, if there's a branch, the pipeline has to be flushed; it'll take at least as many clockcyles as there are stages in the pipeline before any instructions start getting actually executed; there's a lag time there while the instructions are making there way from the start to the end of the pipeline. There may/will be overhead on top of that which can make the stall time greater than if there was no pipeline at all.
So, back to yer original question, a high-MHZ deep-pipelined chip can be slower than a lower-MHZ shallow-pipelined chip IF there are a lot of branches in the program, because each branch will require a pipeline flush, which takes a lot of time to recover from. Speculative branching helps out a lot here, but it's not 100percent accurate, and also requires a lot of silicon to deal with.
All the extra real estate on the chip dedicated to the logic for deep pipelines could be, instead, dedicated to speeding up operations or extra cache or whatever. But x86 chips need fargin' deep pipelines these days to get high MHZ numbers, or else each complicated CISC instruction would take a year or so to decode.
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You'd be surprised at the broadband connection available to things crawling around in your hair.
That Cray at number 11 is the T3E which is actually made up of Digital Alpha processors, not any of Cray's own arch's.
But this machine only runs at 300MHz.
In altivec, multiple instructions can be executed at once, and each instruction works on 4 to 16 numbers at once. A cray on the other had also executes multiple instructions at once, but instead of only operating on 4 to 16 numbers per instruction, an instruction can affect up to 64k numbers. This obviously does not happen in one clock cycle but it does happen fast enough that one 300mhz processor is faster than several gigahertz processors, especially when you look at weighing in memory access times.
I'm a loser baby, so why don't you kill me.
your crays are belong to.... ah nevermind
Hmmm, and here I was thinking that the SV1 was basically a cluster of J90s (admittedly with souped up processors ... lost track of whether they called them the S+ or SE now) and some rather beefy I/O. If you're looking at raw vector grunt, then the NEC SX series is rather impressive though supplies may not have resumed after that anti-dumping action was lifted. Cray has not really produced a top-end vector machine since their T90s and with the Japanese hell bent on their Whole Earth Simulator project (40 Tflops), I don't really see the US catching up anytime. And no, a beowulf of Itaniums don't count unless the problem is embarassingly parallel and your compiler cooperates.
Anyway, now that Cray has been purchased by Tera (the guys who developed that highly threaded CPU) it will be interesting to see their technical direction. In terms of processor development, theirs is the only vaguely interesting CPU that has reached the semi-commercialisation stage.
LL