Slashdot Mirror
Working Nerve Chip
poetic writes: "Two scientists from Munich have succeeded in creating a nerve chip with silicon and snail nerves. The cells were hindered from growing away from the silicon with a plastic fence. They managed to get a signal to go from silicon through a neural circuit and back to the chip again. Cute, one step closer to a decent uplink! See the
abstract at Nature's site."
And we think were adicted to broadband!!!
Heck right now I can't find a place to eat without the internet, and now were getting this much closer to wireing ourselves into the network.
Can you imagine what having SlashDot on the brain will be like once this technology get's some where? (of course we'll need a better way to get rid of flame bait)
Of course then MS will come out with Windows '84 and it will only crash your mind once in a while... "Passport for your brain! It's just not for violating your financial privacy any more!!"
I would rather be ashes than dust!
This is very frightening, actually. Think about if we keep developing AI, and these chips follow. Couldn't it essentially develop to the point where computer circuits could control our OWN cells? Or am I the only one who thinks about these things?!
Maybe the Luddites were right after all.
poor little slug.
anyone watch that doggy film where they grapht(sp) a dead kids brain into a video game to up the AI...
I can see it now...
AI Chip from Cyrix (a bit of a slug)
AI Chip from MS (a small child)
Insightful but Overrated Troll
Leach neurons and those of other critters are useful to experiment with because they are very large, especially in comparison to most mammals. This makes it much easier to connect them to electronics. It will probably be a while before we see anything with people, because the connections must be so tiny. It seems likely though that as nanotech and neuroscience advance, this field will become one of the hottest in science.
A group of researchers in Texas did the same thing with mouse neurons about twelve years ago.
The artificial Mind at http://sourceforge.net/projects/mind/ is currently housed in silicon but will be a natural inhabitant of these nerve chips as we approach the Technological Singularity.
I remember seeing an episode once where this scientist was kind of a dork in every sense, and then he created these computer like antibodies that would be able to attack any bad thing that entered the body. This was great at first, as he remained healthy, and then his physical fitness also seemed to improve. Well, then these antibodies went a little nuts and started making other improvements in the body: like after he went swimming, her developed gills. Then I remember after he tried to kill himself, his body created sporers to protected himself from hurting his body. And then he blew up a lab and killed himself.
Yeah, this is as much scifi as the article says the end use of these guys are, but the more we have computeresque things in our body, the more scared I get.
F-bacher
P.S. Oh yeah, and that guy had sex with his gf and she got pregnant, so the antibodies passed on to her. Dun dun da!
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
The chip's cells will need food. Therefore the chip will produce some waste, we'll need odour eliminators. "CountryBouquet air freshener" by AMD.
You will be assimilated...
resistance is futile!
You're using her as bait, Master!
If they had medical trials for integrating human thought with a data stream, I think I might honestly consider signing up.
Go Lakers!
I guess it would be a really effective form of Communism. I wouldn't mind if 4 billion others could instantaneously help me debug a malfunction with one my finger's servos.
Actually, once we're able to forcably remove thoughts from each other's heads who will need computers? I mean, aside from the computers implanted into our flesh.
Not physical wealth, in this utopia, but informational wealth. Unlike the internet which requires some idea of destination, all the knowledge of the entire species available, searchabe, catalogued, and prepackaged for each of the human nodes in a giant beowulf cluster.
Riker should have submit himself.
The List of Grievances with Slashdot.
It's EVOLUTION, baby!
Just imagine, we could actually be able to get raped by a company when we're not even there.
I don't want this emotion chip anymore !
From the post, emphasis added:
Cute, one step closer to a descent uplink!
How does that work, exactly?
--joedoe
It is certainly a nice start to what could be a promising field, but there are so many things to be dealt with before we could realistically use any technology like this for clinical purposes (ie: borg implants). Namely, if these were to be used in longer nerves (anything in the spine for example) they would have to come up with a way of dealing with myelinated nerve cells, not just bare cells. Myelin is a sheath that covers nerves to increase speed of signal transduction, and piercing it (with a chip interface) could lead to problems in propagating an action potential... However, this stuff looks like it has serious promise for starting research into "biological computing"
... not in here, pal, this is a mercedes...
I saw a documentary on TLC a while ago about AI and such, and they mentioned a group of scientists who had done something similar to this. They were pretty vague about the whole thing but these people had basically taken a small clump of nerve cells (I want to say they were human brain cells, but I'm not sure...) and put them on this chip that would monitor their outputs and provide inputs. They had connected the whole thing to this computer which simulated a very simple 2D (pseudo-3d, kinda like Wolfenstein) environment, and trained the cells to move around in the virtual "world", avoiding walls and obstacles.
It's sounded pretty far out...has anyone else heard of anything like this?
--Ariston
"I'm never wrong--sometimes reality just disagrees with me."
if it uses snail nerves, wont the chip be slow?
I remember reading about this experement, and what they had done is taken the "brain mass" from a lamprey (a jawless fish with an incredibly simple nervous system). Pretty interesting that just a little bitty hunk of cells could navigate around in the computer. Since a lamprey has but one very simple "eye" it was probably fairly simple to feed in the visual input.
Regards
James
But the only problem is the slowness of the propagation.
Next year, they are going to try the same experiment with rabbit nerves, to see if there is a speed improvement.
The question is, if all humans and computers were neuro-electronically connected, would the loss of individualism and seperate perspectives make the world more productive or less productive because there is no conflict and seperate takes to encourage creativity? And, ofcourse, would humans become obsolete?
I've always dreamed of having a computer interface with the breain directly, overriding the senses so as to make a virtual world. Imagine playing a photorealistic quake 3 or unreal tournament with you IN the game, shooting people. Or an RPG where you actually talk to people and gather information. I am 20 years old now, and i doubt i will see TRUE virtual worlds in my lifetime, but i can always dream. I wonder if this 'nerve interfacing' is the first step into doing what i wish. Maybe i should be a biology researcher and help out. (riiight.)
It's easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.
I'm actually surprised at the fact that the article focused on prosthetic implants (ie into the brain) as one of the primary benefits of this technology. Many of us on /. followed with similar thoughts. However, I see other applications to be much closer on the horizon. While we have a long way to go before we can start wet-wiring silicon to our brains, I think we could use this technology for artificial limbs much sooner. Theoretically, it should be possible to build entirely eltromechanical limbs that have the ability to transmit feeling -- hot and cold, pressure, pain, etc. Being able to connect electronic sensors in these limbs to actual nerve tissue is the missing link. In cases where a limb truly could not be attached, this would be the next best option. Any speculation on how long it will be?
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
He wrote about laminating animal brains into silicon for use in robots and such.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
... already patented the 10base-T Interface on the human body? Hmm I guess I'll immediatly rush to the patent office, and get also USB, Firewire and for the sake of it good old RS232 for direct humanoid interfacing.
Remember you don't have to bring a proof of work to patent something, just have to wait somebody else does.
Maybe the man-page will get a new meaning in the future?
--
Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
If this has your interest, UK professor Kevin Warwick definatly will. He had a chip implanted in 1998, making him a cyborg (not the first though). He researches robotics and decided to get the implant for a week or so, which communicated with the university where he worked through a radio link (his story in Wired).
;) is that he is doing this on himself. There are actually health risks involved in the operation, which is why he chose to get it in his left arm, as he is right-handed. I guess someone would argue that it's unscientific experimenting on yourself, rather than a test subject, but for me it shows how much he burns for this subject, and if see an interview with him, I think you will agree.
THIS year, he is taking it to the next step. "Project Cyborg 2.0":
This phase will look at how a new implant could send signals back and forth between Warwick's nervous system and a computer. If this test succeeds with no complications, a similar chip will be implanted in his wife, Irena. This will allow the investigation of how movement, thought or emotion signals could be transmitted from one person to the other, possibly via the Internet.
I heard on BBC, where he was interviewed, that he wanted to find out, if they could transfer/share pain, he and his wife. Interesting stuff.
What I personally find cool about Kevin (yes, he is a first name kinda guy
-Kraft
Live and let live
Mom! The Pentium ate the geraniums again!
Table-ized A.I.
this is great research. this'll go a long way in peoples understanding of the human brain and the development of neural networks. i think we can look forward to more intelligent computers now.
Now that we can see and have a bit of control over the structure, the next step to do would be to study the response of a neuron.
I hear Microsoft is already working on a version of Passport to work with these :)
...who keeps a house in Texas.
Save the snails! They don't deserve this kind of animal cruelty! Everyone, protest outside of your nearest semiconductor plant to show your dislike of the abuse of these poor, innocent creatures!
</sarcasm>
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
I find it sad that the first thing someone thought about when they saw this story was that it brought us one step closer to a (completely unnecessary, and downright dangerous in my eyes) machine-to-brain interface.
Hello?! Did it ever occur to such people that such a device has great possibilities for repairing or bypassing damaged nerves in, say, folks who have been paralyzed? Yeegads, people! Get a clue! If this can be made to work effectively in humans, it's just possible that the wheelchair-bound could regain their mobility!
We've got enough info overload right now without being linked to a bunch of frelling computers. Let's think of giving someone with, say, cerebral palsy a whole new and stable degree of motor control before we start browsing the web on the insides of our retinas, hmmm?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
As single cells once worked alone, then worked together into brainless simple multi-cellular organisms, and then developed nervous structures, we are doing the same. First we all worked individually. Then as civilization came, we split up into different specialties. Today we are specialists enough that there are critical parts of society without which we cannot do as a modern society such as doctors, road repair workers, policemen, etc. This is analogous to the simple brainless multicellular animals that developed early in this planet's history. They lacked a brain. So far, we too are pretty autonomous. With the wire-nerve connection one day we are all going to one day be parts of one or more giant organisms, just like cells are. There will certainly be individuals, but they will be to the 'magalife systems' (I can't think of a better term.) what bacteria are to us today. Just like the cells of our bodies perform to instructions from the brain, so will we 'humans' do so, listening to orders from our collective brains. Just like our cells do now, we will commit suicide when ordered to do so, to prevent that day's version of cancerous growth.
:)
The idea of implants similar to 'the borg' is very unrefined. When the day comes, I forsee a computer many many times greater than anything today, in every one of my cells. It will be indistinguishable from biological matter as the line between bio and digital computers will blur until there is none.
The intelligence of such hybrid humans, if that term can be applied here, could increase with moore's law, and the intelligence of the 'megalives'would be even greater.
I can't wait.
Think about it twice :
AI to Cell : No ! Merging right now will cause a Cancer. You are Forbidden to do that.
BUT you can use your energy to produce this nice AntiOxidant that is needed on level 4 to unclog that nasty Arteria. Now Go !!!
What is the problem; if we understand all the consequences ?
Could help producing solutions faster, while better controling Fats, Adrenalin, Cholesterol...
Then I could hack into my girlfriend, pump her Oestrogen and see a Breast Increase 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
This is great! One more step towards total ceribral freedom... did I spell ceribral right? Damn... how ironic.
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
I really want a brain implant, too. (Yeah, and I suppose the wheelchair-bound can walk, too -- and have brain implants at the same time!).
But then I thought about the DMCA, and how I'll get in argument with my friends, as usual. We'll see an 80 year-old Anthony Edwards, of ER fame, on the screen and we'll try to figure out what crappy '80s movie he was in, and it'll rack our brains, and then up will pop a message from AOLTimeWarnerMicrosoftDisneySonyCBS Inc. that will say, "If you'd like to remember the movie Anthony Edwards starred in in the late '80s, we can provide the answer for 25 cents. It will automatically be deducted from your credit card."
I'll try to remember the answer, but finally, in desperation to beat my friends to the punch, I'll grudgingly pay the 25 cents to remember the answer, but just as the credit card is authorizing, my friend will yell out, "Revenge of the Nerds!"
But it'll be too late to cancel my thought order! And meanwhile, in my brain, I'll hear, "We have noted in our records that you couldn't recall the film 'Revenge of the Nerds', which is the intellectual property of AOLTimeWarnerMicrosoftDisneySonyCBS Inc. In the future, if you think about 'Revenge of the Nerds', be advised that you will be charged 25 cents. Thank you and have a lovely day."
gameDB
So does this mean eventually a snail brain will be the most intelligent thing around (besides the aliens)? I wonder if they'll feel resentful toward humans 'trampling' on them for thousands of years and demand reparations! :):):)
Another reason to like Texas!
I'm the guy who "linked up a couple of leach (spelled leech neurons to silicon". We do use a chip, its a custom-designed analog circuit that replicates neural function. Our interface is very different, however, so maybe this is why you thought we don't use a chip. The article you are discussing is a step up in the number of neurons being used, but not the complexity. The signals recorded through extracellular recording techniques are nowhere near what you get through intracellular (what we use with our chip). Basically all that can be determined from extracellular is "a spike happened", and I believe that this is not enough to understand the nuance that makes neural processing so powerful. Additionally, extracellular stimulation is incredibly heavy-handed, and does not even begin to approximate synaptic input to a cell. Shocking a neuron into firing is not what I would call complex.
Some men spend their entire lives trying to kill themselves for having been born. --Ross MacDonald
they could transfer/share pain Wouldn't it be better to transfer/share pleasure?
I'll take the Cyberjack implant, the titanium bone lacing, the synthetic muscles, the cybereyes, and those knives that come out of fake fingernails.