Slashdot Mirror
Working Nerve Chip
poetic writes: "Two scientists from Munich have succeeded in creating a nerve chip with silicon and snail nerves. The cells were hindered from growing away from the silicon with a plastic fence. They managed to get a signal to go from silicon through a neural circuit and back to the chip again. Cute, one step closer to a decent uplink! See the
abstract at Nature's site."
And we think were adicted to broadband!!!
Heck right now I can't find a place to eat without the internet, and now were getting this much closer to wireing ourselves into the network.
Can you imagine what having SlashDot on the brain will be like once this technology get's some where? (of course we'll need a better way to get rid of flame bait)
Of course then MS will come out with Windows '84 and it will only crash your mind once in a while... "Passport for your brain! It's just not for violating your financial privacy any more!!"
I would rather be ashes than dust!
This is very frightening, actually. Think about if we keep developing AI, and these chips follow. Couldn't it essentially develop to the point where computer circuits could control our OWN cells? Or am I the only one who thinks about these things?!
Maybe the Luddites were right after all.
Leach neurons and those of other critters are useful to experiment with because they are very large, especially in comparison to most mammals. This makes it much easier to connect them to electronics. It will probably be a while before we see anything with people, because the connections must be so tiny. It seems likely though that as nanotech and neuroscience advance, this field will become one of the hottest in science.
A group of researchers in Texas did the same thing with mouse neurons about twelve years ago.
The chip's cells will need food. Therefore the chip will produce some waste, we'll need odour eliminators. "CountryBouquet air freshener" by AMD.
You will be assimilated...
resistance is futile!
You're using her as bait, Master!
If they had medical trials for integrating human thought with a data stream, I think I might honestly consider signing up.
Go Lakers!
Here's why this is bad:
1. Loss of all privacy (you can't disconnect from this net unless you get captured by Picard)
2. Loss of all freedom. Because all your actions are triggered by thoughts from your brain, all of your actions could be preempted by the rest of the world. That sounds great for stoppin crime, but aweful for people who break from social norms
3. Propogation of viruses. You thought the internet was bad at doing this. Remember when Picard infected Hue with those non-Borgian thoughts? That almost screwed up the Borg's entire existence.
People can probably think up some more.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
It is certainly a nice start to what could be a promising field, but there are so many things to be dealt with before we could realistically use any technology like this for clinical purposes (ie: borg implants). Namely, if these were to be used in longer nerves (anything in the spine for example) they would have to come up with a way of dealing with myelinated nerve cells, not just bare cells. Myelin is a sheath that covers nerves to increase speed of signal transduction, and piercing it (with a chip interface) could lead to problems in propagating an action potential... However, this stuff looks like it has serious promise for starting research into "biological computing"
... not in here, pal, this is a mercedes...
I saw a documentary on TLC a while ago about AI and such, and they mentioned a group of scientists who had done something similar to this. They were pretty vague about the whole thing but these people had basically taken a small clump of nerve cells (I want to say they were human brain cells, but I'm not sure...) and put them on this chip that would monitor their outputs and provide inputs. They had connected the whole thing to this computer which simulated a very simple 2D (pseudo-3d, kinda like Wolfenstein) environment, and trained the cells to move around in the virtual "world", avoiding walls and obstacles.
It's sounded pretty far out...has anyone else heard of anything like this?
--Ariston
"I'm never wrong--sometimes reality just disagrees with me."
I remember reading about this experement, and what they had done is taken the "brain mass" from a lamprey (a jawless fish with an incredibly simple nervous system). Pretty interesting that just a little bitty hunk of cells could navigate around in the computer. Since a lamprey has but one very simple "eye" it was probably fairly simple to feed in the visual input.
Regards
James
But the only problem is the slowness of the propagation.
Next year, they are going to try the same experiment with rabbit nerves, to see if there is a speed improvement.
I'm actually surprised at the fact that the article focused on prosthetic implants (ie into the brain) as one of the primary benefits of this technology. Many of us on /. followed with similar thoughts. However, I see other applications to be much closer on the horizon. While we have a long way to go before we can start wet-wiring silicon to our brains, I think we could use this technology for artificial limbs much sooner. Theoretically, it should be possible to build entirely eltromechanical limbs that have the ability to transmit feeling -- hot and cold, pressure, pain, etc. Being able to connect electronic sensors in these limbs to actual nerve tissue is the missing link. In cases where a limb truly could not be attached, this would be the next best option. Any speculation on how long it will be?
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
He wrote about laminating animal brains into silicon for use in robots and such.
The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination
- Douglas Adams
... already patented the 10base-T Interface on the human body? Hmm I guess I'll immediatly rush to the patent office, and get also USB, Firewire and for the sake of it good old RS232 for direct humanoid interfacing.
Remember you don't have to bring a proof of work to patent something, just have to wait somebody else does.
Maybe the man-page will get a new meaning in the future?
--
Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
If this has your interest, UK professor Kevin Warwick definatly will. He had a chip implanted in 1998, making him a cyborg (not the first though). He researches robotics and decided to get the implant for a week or so, which communicated with the university where he worked through a radio link (his story in Wired).
;) is that he is doing this on himself. There are actually health risks involved in the operation, which is why he chose to get it in his left arm, as he is right-handed. I guess someone would argue that it's unscientific experimenting on yourself, rather than a test subject, but for me it shows how much he burns for this subject, and if see an interview with him, I think you will agree.
THIS year, he is taking it to the next step. "Project Cyborg 2.0":
This phase will look at how a new implant could send signals back and forth between Warwick's nervous system and a computer. If this test succeeds with no complications, a similar chip will be implanted in his wife, Irena. This will allow the investigation of how movement, thought or emotion signals could be transmitted from one person to the other, possibly via the Internet.
I heard on BBC, where he was interviewed, that he wanted to find out, if they could transfer/share pain, he and his wife. Interesting stuff.
What I personally find cool about Kevin (yes, he is a first name kinda guy
-Kraft
Live and let live
OT but, Yeah that was a good one. except of course they were not 'antibodies' but 'nanomachines'. As if Y-shaped protein epitope recognition molecules could do that
Well it looks like that episode was based on Greg Bear's Blood Music, a sci-fi story dealing with MAB's - Medically Applicable Biochips. in that story, they MABs are "microscopic logic circuits which can be injected into the human body to troubleshoot".
He also developed this story into a novel, which I haven't read yet, so i can't say much about it.
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
Learning to fly, Pink Floyd.
The bad guy in that episode was Denis Leary >:)
Actually, this story reminded me more of the episode where there was a worldwide wireless "internet", but it talked directly to human brain via neural methods. Apart from the handful of people who were unreceptive to it, everybody could just download information to the brain whenever they wanted. Dont know how to speak French? zzzip.. learned.
As it happened, the system got a virus that started killing people with information overload , and the "retards" that were unreceptive to it managed to save the day by getting in and fixing the system (and discovering true love at the same time, or something).
this is great research. this'll go a long way in peoples understanding of the human brain and the development of neural networks. i think we can look forward to more intelligent computers now.
Now that we can see and have a bit of control over the structure, the next step to do would be to study the response of a neuron.
I hear Microsoft is already working on a version of Passport to work with these :)
I take your point about viruses, but privacy and freedom? Desire for those is just a side-effect of being humble individuals. Borg members will have no such flaws.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
Yeah, I've thought about that for years too... then the Matrix came out... and now the dream looks more like a nightmare.
Readers of Carlos Castaneda's books should probably sympathise.
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
nah you will probably see it in your life time. . just look at how longer old people are living today, which implyes older people will live even longer latter on or at least long enogh to the point where older takes on slightly diffrent deffention. .> anyway. . yea .. we are not too far off, as the interface evolves we come closer to what you speek, already we see people spening more time in virtual worlds then in the real, ask any everquest user, does it really matter if the interface is compleatly overiding the senses?
Save the snails! They don't deserve this kind of animal cruelty! Everyone, protest outside of your nearest semiconductor plant to show your dislike of the abuse of these poor, innocent creatures!
</sarcasm>
IBM had PL/1, with syntax worse than JOSS,
And everywhere the language went, it was a total loss...
I find it sad that the first thing someone thought about when they saw this story was that it brought us one step closer to a (completely unnecessary, and downright dangerous in my eyes) machine-to-brain interface.
Hello?! Did it ever occur to such people that such a device has great possibilities for repairing or bypassing damaged nerves in, say, folks who have been paralyzed? Yeegads, people! Get a clue! If this can be made to work effectively in humans, it's just possible that the wheelchair-bound could regain their mobility!
We've got enough info overload right now without being linked to a bunch of frelling computers. Let's think of giving someone with, say, cerebral palsy a whole new and stable degree of motor control before we start browsing the web on the insides of our retinas, hmmm?
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
As single cells once worked alone, then worked together into brainless simple multi-cellular organisms, and then developed nervous structures, we are doing the same. First we all worked individually. Then as civilization came, we split up into different specialties. Today we are specialists enough that there are critical parts of society without which we cannot do as a modern society such as doctors, road repair workers, policemen, etc. This is analogous to the simple brainless multicellular animals that developed early in this planet's history. They lacked a brain. So far, we too are pretty autonomous. With the wire-nerve connection one day we are all going to one day be parts of one or more giant organisms, just like cells are. There will certainly be individuals, but they will be to the 'magalife systems' (I can't think of a better term.) what bacteria are to us today. Just like the cells of our bodies perform to instructions from the brain, so will we 'humans' do so, listening to orders from our collective brains. Just like our cells do now, we will commit suicide when ordered to do so, to prevent that day's version of cancerous growth.
:)
The idea of implants similar to 'the borg' is very unrefined. When the day comes, I forsee a computer many many times greater than anything today, in every one of my cells. It will be indistinguishable from biological matter as the line between bio and digital computers will blur until there is none.
The intelligence of such hybrid humans, if that term can be applied here, could increase with moore's law, and the intelligence of the 'megalives'would be even greater.
I can't wait.
Think about it twice :
AI to Cell : No ! Merging right now will cause a Cancer. You are Forbidden to do that.
BUT you can use your energy to produce this nice AntiOxidant that is needed on level 4 to unclog that nasty Arteria. Now Go !!!
What is the problem; if we understand all the consequences ?
Could help producing solutions faster, while better controling Fats, Adrenalin, Cholesterol...
Then I could hack into my girlfriend, pump her Oestrogen and see a Breast Increase 8)
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
I really want a brain implant, too. (Yeah, and I suppose the wheelchair-bound can walk, too -- and have brain implants at the same time!).
But then I thought about the DMCA, and how I'll get in argument with my friends, as usual. We'll see an 80 year-old Anthony Edwards, of ER fame, on the screen and we'll try to figure out what crappy '80s movie he was in, and it'll rack our brains, and then up will pop a message from AOLTimeWarnerMicrosoftDisneySonyCBS Inc. that will say, "If you'd like to remember the movie Anthony Edwards starred in in the late '80s, we can provide the answer for 25 cents. It will automatically be deducted from your credit card."
I'll try to remember the answer, but finally, in desperation to beat my friends to the punch, I'll grudgingly pay the 25 cents to remember the answer, but just as the credit card is authorizing, my friend will yell out, "Revenge of the Nerds!"
But it'll be too late to cancel my thought order! And meanwhile, in my brain, I'll hear, "We have noted in our records that you couldn't recall the film 'Revenge of the Nerds', which is the intellectual property of AOLTimeWarnerMicrosoftDisneySonyCBS Inc. In the future, if you think about 'Revenge of the Nerds', be advised that you will be charged 25 cents. Thank you and have a lovely day."
gameDB
I'm the guy who "linked up a couple of leach (spelled leech neurons to silicon". We do use a chip, its a custom-designed analog circuit that replicates neural function. Our interface is very different, however, so maybe this is why you thought we don't use a chip. The article you are discussing is a step up in the number of neurons being used, but not the complexity. The signals recorded through extracellular recording techniques are nowhere near what you get through intracellular (what we use with our chip). Basically all that can be determined from extracellular is "a spike happened", and I believe that this is not enough to understand the nuance that makes neural processing so powerful. Additionally, extracellular stimulation is incredibly heavy-handed, and does not even begin to approximate synaptic input to a cell. Shocking a neuron into firing is not what I would call complex.
Some men spend their entire lives trying to kill themselves for having been born. --Ross MacDonald
I suppose 'sensations' would be a more suitable word.
-Kraft
Live and let live